1. Everything in nature is either determined or random
2. Free will is neither determined nor random
C. Free will does not exist. — Brendan Golledge
I've never heard that there is a general consensus regarding from what free will is supposed to be free. But if it's physicalist determinism, then will is free if it is random. I think that's what ↪Brendan Golledge means by "free". — Patterner
I agree. And looking back, I see that I wrote while too tired, and was on too many sites. I explained myself badly. Perhaps I'll be able to do better tomorrow. LolExcept I don’t think deterministic and random are the only two choices. I don’t think there’s any empirical way to determine whether or not the universe is deterministic. I think it is clear that it’s not random. — T Clark
1. Everything in nature is either determined or random — Brendan Golledge
2. Free will is neither determined nor random
C. Free will does not exist. — Brendan Golledge
Note the passive voice: everything in nature is determined. Determined by what? If human behavior is determined then it needs to be determined by something other than ourselves, or else it is determined by us, which entails free will. — NOS4A2
You have claimed that Item 1 is true without justification. Perhaps you think it is self evident, but I disagree. — T Clark
Speaking as someone who has studied physics, when I first saw the argument, I thought it was obvious that nature was "determined" by the laws of physics. All natural laws described by physics prior to the discovery of quantum mechanics are deterministic laws. You can take the equations of parabolic motion taught in high school as an example. If you know the initial conditions of the ball, then you know when and where it will end up.
If you spent a lot of time studying natural sciences, you would probably realize that all the models we use are either deterministic (almost all of them) or random (quantum mechanics, or statistics when the underlying fundamentals are too complicated to calculate). — Brendan Golledge
Since then, I've come to realize that causality, materialism, and objective reality are metaphysical concepts, by which I mean they are neither true nor false. They have no truth value — T Clark
Proofs of freewill and proofs of determinism are as reliable as proofs for and against the existence of God. One may be sure that that they are unreliable without even reading them, because of unenlightened's famous principle: "No arrangement of words, howsoever cunning, can oblige the world to be thus and not so."
Thought experiments can only be useful when one already knows precisely what one is talking about. They are therefore of little value to philosophers, who are only called in when folk discover that they don't quite know what they are talking about after all.
To reject unenlightened's principle is to believe in the efficacy of magic spells. — unenlightened
Based on the argument you made, math and science are magic spells, because they predict how things work by the use of logic symbols. I would be angry that you have written such ignorant nonsense without even bothering to read the OP, but I am used to it by now. — Brendan Golledge
If all is random how do we make decisions by predicting the future? Are you saying we have no control over our lives? — Gregory
But making plans in life implies we can predict the future with some accuracy — Gregory
You never walked to the car knowing you would get there? Usually changes in routine happen gradually — Gregory
What does control over life mean? — Gregory
Disregarding what lies beyond our control means separating between what we can and cannot control with a will to control (power) — Gregory
Or, reading a good book that changes your perspective on life — Questioner
For example, sometimes we have to accept things in our life that suck — Questioner
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