OK, you win, I'm an idiot. I'll just point out though that as long as you're judging it on whether or not it 'works', you're still only thinking about yourself and haven't tried it yet. — unenlightened

You didn't even read the original post I made which addresses why your argument fails.

Never mind that I've done that before and it doesn't lead to meaning or value or anything you mention.

Oh I know this doesn’t work because I’ve done this most of my life and it’s just as hollow and empty as the pleasure of the self you seem to place less importance on. — Darkneos

Is there a way you'd prefer people to respond to you in the thread?

Is there a way you'd prefer people to respond to you in the thread? — fdrake

I guess some indication that my replies and posts are being read and engaged with.

The whole "love" thing I covered at the start and yet it just feels like people are simply saying shit without reading how I covered that part.

Love only matters if one has to live and in death there is no concern over any of that stuff, even the pain that would follow from your death. To make a case against it you'd have to engage with why living would be preferable when it's not a requirement to be alive.

To make a case against it you'd have to engage with why living would be preferable when it's not a requirement to be alive. — Darkneos

I suppose if you contrast a life which stops now, and a life which stops in the future, if you believed the life which stops now accumulates less net suffering (what's good - what's bad) than the life which stops later, that would be a "good reason" to end it.

Where other people come in is that there's a presumption in your posts so far that the person considering suicide's suffering is more important than the suffering of those they leave behind. It's a big gamble there, as a sudden death is the kind of thing that can ruin loved ones' lives. NB it does not matter if the person who wants to commit suicide loves them back, those who loves' wounds matter equally. Well not necessarily, but it's a good principle to believe that every person's suffering is of equal note all else held equal. Though perhaps that is obviated if our hypothetical person who wishes to die has people who love them.

Yes, I am saying it can be more moral to trap yourself in a cage of others' love than to end it. Even if your life is so worthless that it might as well not have been, for you, that does not mean others share that valuation. A person ending themselves in that instance deprives others of something they cherish: them.

OK, you win, I'm an idiot. — unenlightened

Never mind that I've done that before and it doesn't lead to meaning or value or anything you mention. — Darkneos

“I’m a staunch nihilist, because my impeccable reasoning /slash/ faith makes me so. Prove to me that there is any worthwhile meaning which can occur in a meaningless world! Agape as meaningful, btw, can only be irrational and thereby idiotic in the world I live in.” To which, anyone who opens their mouth can only be an idiot for not agreeing with nihilism. Come to think of it, this line of reasoning sort of has the same vibe that arguments for solipsism does - which in a way is the ultimate valuing of the existence of self.

So, being just such an idiot myself though maybe with a different flavor, anyone ever seen the movie Wristcutters: A Love Story?

Yes, yes, as a movie it’s about upholding societal norms via the partial plot of romantic love – only that it ain’t. No absolute wrong to killing oneself in the movie’s story. Besides, it nicely touches upon the “taboo existential topic” of suicide in sometimes poignant manners with a good deal of humor. Here’s a trailer to it:


But again, it hinges on death not being the end, which is contrary to nihilism, which, as all nihilists will attest to, is idiotic. Funny in a way how certain nihilists can entertain possibilities from solipsism to an infinite number of universes but not in any way the possibility of an existence after death.

To me arguments for staying alive or for meaning only work if you HAVE to live. Filling life with good things, doing what you love, all that junk only has logical weight if one is unable to die until a set time. Baring that I see no reason for living. Desire for pleasures only applies if you are alive, if you die there is no need for any of that. Same with love, friendship, food, money, etc. — Darkneos

You're sort of hardwired to try to preserve your own life. Adrenaline is your body's argument.

What a number of philosophical people have done in the face of the challenge is to seek authenticity. Discover who you really are and live life like a sacred dance. Of some kind.

So it takes some courage to direct a firearm into your mouth. It also takes courage to find the way to live life on your terms: to learn to say yes to life as Nietzsche very well might have said. It starts by learning to listen.

I’ve struggled to find a good argument against suicide that doesn’t involve either nonsense or special pleading to life or hindsight bias.

The way I see it if there is no greater reason to meaning to life then there isn’t really a reason to keep going. Not reason to really struggle and fight for a place in the world. No reason to really pursue anything. One can just end their life and be done with the pursuit and struggle. — Darkneos

What kind of “greater reason” do you mean? Whats wrong with meaning people create for themselves?

To me arguments for staying alive or for meaning only work if you HAVE to live. Filling life with good things, doing what you love, all that junk only has logical weight if one is unable to die until a set time. Baring that I see no reason for living. Desire for pleasures only applies if you are alive, if you die there is no need for any of that. Same with love, friendship, food, money, etc. — Darkneos

Huh? Nothing in life matters because you will die and when youre dead nothing in life matters? Is that what you are saying? If so, why wouldn't the life stuff matter while youre alive?

The way I see it if there is no greater reason to meaning to life then there isn’t really a reason to keep going. Not reason to really struggle and fight for a place in the world. No reason to really pursue anything. One can just end their life and be done with the pursuit and struggle. — Darkneos

As far as I know the cosmos does not supply ready-made meaning for us. You are certainly NOT the first person to discover that life may be, can be, may seem to be... meaningless. Get used to it and move on. That's what people do.

Struggling? Fighting, Pursuing? Suicide is a possible solution but the most obvious alternative to the unsatisfactory rat race of striving, struggling, and all that is to stop striving, stop struggling. Try to be more in the present moment rather than being busy trying to accomplish something in the future, or fretting over something not done in the past, because "now" is where you live.

William Wordsworth (1770-1850) said,

The world is too much with us; late and soon,
Getting and spending, we lay waste our powers

We are way too busy striving which leaves us depleted, deflated, depressed. Step one: stop it.

Avoid perseveration. What's that? spending a lot of time chewing over the same idea (like, life has no meaning, nothing matters, I might as well be dead).

What should you do if you are perseverating? In a nutshell, stop it, at once! Stop it because it's a giant waste of time going in mental circles and wearing a rut in your mind.

At the very least, hold off planning your suicide until you have a really good reason to do it, like developing Huntington's disease, terribly painful terminal cancer, or some other mortal threat. As for discovering that life is meaningless, well...pfffft.

Where other people come in is that there's a presumption in your posts so far that the person considering suicide's suffering is more important than the suffering of those they leave behind. — fdrake

That's an awfully idealistic scenario. Not rarely, it's precisely those other people who want someone to die, and they even say so.

but the most obvious alternative to the unsatisfactory rat race of striving, struggling, and all that is to stop striving, stop struggling. Try to be more in the present moment rather than being busy trying to accomplish something in the future, or fretting over something not done in the past, because "now" is where you live. — BC

Spoken like a retired baby boomer.

For an increasing number of people, the struggling and the striving isn't a matter of too much ambition, but a matter of bare survival.

The sheer physical and mental exhaustion from work eventually makes one wonder why go on with it.

People of your age could at least hope to retire someday, they had something to look forward to. This is the case for fewer and fewer people nowadays.

Official psychology tends to be quite out of touch with the realities of life.

For an increasing number of people, the struggling and the striving isn't a matter of too much ambition, but a matter of bare survival. — baker

I'm gonna chime in and say, it seems like a lot of more people nowadays are simply dissatisfied with work itself. Just the idea of 'work' makes them lose the motivation. If that's the case, there's no solution. We all need to work to live.

Hold on, hold on. Not every baby boomer retired on Golden Pond with ample resources from their financial planning for retirement. Maybe 20% of boomers have comfortable retirements. I was not and am not in that group. I did plenty of struggling to survive low pay, bad jobs, roach infested housing, disability, bad public transit, homophobia and other impediments to the good life. I retired early not because I was well fixed, but because I couldn't stand the thought of looking for yet another job at 62.

Agreed, though; as a group, the post WWII birth cohort were lucky--what with a 25 year growth period, generous government programs, full employment, and so on. If subsequent generations find it difficult to retire (a pattern that prevailed before the 20th century), there are several guilty parties to blame: The administration of the government has not been as good a steward of Social Security and Medicare funds as they could have been. Wealthy people have worked hard to avoid being taxed at a level where entitlement programs could be properly and fully financed. Antigovernment politicians have worked to hobble agencies, like the IRS which gathers in what the government needs; they'd like to do away with social security / medicare / medicaid altogether. Fucking bastards!

Fortunately or unfortunately, people tend to live longer now than when Social Security was set up. Longevity uses up more reserved funds.

I have a great deal of empathy for younger people who are starting out or are at mid career, or heading toward retirement age. Short of major reform (nothing revolutionary is required), millions of old workers are going to have a tough time. 20% of younger people -- those professionally employed at good salaries -- will do fine. The rest, no so much.

BTW, it isn't just Social Security. Many state managed retirement funds are in very bad shape. Generous promises were made to the state employees, but not nearly enough cash was collected to actually fund the promises.

So, spoken like a retired baby boomer or not, I'll stick to my advice to Darkneos.

Interesting fact: prior to the social security expansion act and other social program actions in the mid 1960s, poverty among the elderly was around 35%.

For an increasing number of people, the struggling and the striving isn't a matter of too much ambition, but a matter of bare survival. — baker

:up:

it seems like a lot of more people nowadays are simply dissatisfied with work itself — L'éléphant

:up:

Now back to suicide.

Yes, I am saying it can be more moral to trap yourself in a cage of others' love than to end it. Even if your life is so worthless that it might as well not have been, for you, that does not mean others share that valuation. A person ending themselves in that instance deprives others of something they cherish: them. — fdrake

Irrelevant, for reasons I already mentioned. There is no real need to be concerned over what happens to others if one is dead. All that stuff vanishes so why should it matter if other people hurt?

But again, it hinges on death not being the end, which is contrary to nihilism, which, as all nihilists will attest to, is idiotic. Funny in a way how certain nihilists can entertain possibilities from solipsism to an infinite number of universes but not in any way the possibility of an existence after death. — javra

Saying not to do it because there might be an afterlife is, IMO, a stupid argument. Considering there is no reason to think there is one it's about as effective as wet sand.

What a number of philosophical people have done in the face of the challenge is to seek authenticity. Discover who you really are and live life like a sacred dance. Of some kind.

So it takes some courage to direct a firearm into your mouth. It also takes courage to find the way to live life on your terms: to learn to say yes to life as Nietzsche very well might have said. It starts by learning to listen. — frank

I already explained why that argument doesn't work.

Huh? Nothing in life matters because you will die and when youre dead nothing in life matters? Is that what you are saying? If so, why wouldn't the life stuff matter while youre alive? — DingoJones

There is no reason to do it. Filling life with stuff to do only counts if you have to live and you don't.

Struggling? Fighting, Pursuing? Suicide is a possible solution but the most obvious alternative to the unsatisfactory rat race of striving, struggling, and all that is to stop striving, stop struggling. Try to be more in the present moment rather than being busy trying to accomplish something in the future, or fretting over something not done in the past, because "now" is where you live. — BC

The present moment is where one feels pain and wishes to end it, so that's a pretty terrible point to make. The arguments against suicide often appeal to a future that doesn't exist and can't be guaranteed, hence the hindsight bias.

Suicide is necessarily a settlement of the Mind, imposed upon the Body. If you think, as I do, that the Mind constructs and projects Fictions, to support the Body in its drive to live, then the Mind has no business imposing a glitch or pathology so permanently upon the Body. Rather, it must fulfill its 'fiduciary' role and repair the glitch. Of course, the Body suffers real pain because ot the glitch, which only exasperates the glitch ultimately leading to the fatal but clearly false settlement. So there must be compassion in the meantime, people in that condition need others to care about their suffering. But to me without a doubt suicide is a mistake and Mind has no business imposing it on a Body with a drive to live.

I think you enjoy shooting down suggestions the way New Jerseyans would like to shoot down all these drones flying around.

[No] reason to really struggle and fight for a place in the world. No reason to really pursue anything. One can just end [one's] life and be done with the pursuit and struggle. — Darkneos

So be a bum. Many people give up, get off the hamster wheel and drop out of "the struggle" e.g. monastics, hermits, homeless, (RV) nomads, off-the-grid preppers, et al. Ancient traditions of (e.g.) Epicureans & Kynics celebrated this marginal way of life as attaining "ataraxia". For some, dumb animal "happiness" suffices. :strong:

You (all of us) are going to die soon enough anyway so why the rush to end yourself? :eyes:

As pointed out already, suicide is a permanent (non)solution to a temporary (non)problem – thus, irrational (or pathological). That there is no inherent reason to live demonstrates that there is no inherent reason to kill yourself. You were Born. You Learn. You Love-Lose. (You unLearn.) You will Die. No "argument" for or against "life" – or the lack of an "argument" – changes these facts of life, so stop whining and get over yourself, dude. :death: :flower:

I mean, I know such arguments are unfavored here, but you don't actually know anything about what does or does not happen after death minus what a 2 year old can observe and comment on.

So, you know. The idea that there is a multitude of reasons to favor what we consider mortal life versus death is wholly valid. I mean, you just woke up one day and came to the conclusion every thing that can be possibly known or experienced in such a vast world and universe happens to be in your head? Pretty flimsy argument, all things considered. Just saying.

Beyond that, there are tangible things, which I presume is what you are demanding. The unyielding sacrifice and strides man has made to provide such a quality life that any thinking person would undoubtedly be overjoyed at and desire to experience. From caves and clubs to interplanetary travel and technologies that those, not that long ago, before us could barely fathom in their wildest dreams. I mean, the logic is there. And boy is it sound. Deafening, really. It's simply up for you to see it when you're ready.

Does man become content when his pleasures and necessities are met? Absolutely. Is this contentedness perhaps not always ideal for his condition and positive opinion on life versus his idea of non-life? Maybe so. Maybe so. Read into the idea of the hedonic treadmill some. This may help you better understand what others are suggesting and following along with to a tee.

I mean, I know such arguments are unfavored here, but you don't actually know anything about what does or does not happen after death minus what a 2 year old can observe and comment on. — Outlander

Yes, we do not know that at all, despite the fact that seculars today pretend to.

Harming oneself is bad. ...That's a sound principle that does not require pretending to know that there is nothing after death. Things are not at bleak as they seem. Reality has a way of surprising our simplistic and short-sighted fears and expectations.

I guess this is a good a place as any. — Darkneos

Is it? What is it good for? What other places have you visited?

I've struggled to find a good argument against suicide that doesn’t involve either nonsense or special pleading to life or hindsight bias. — Darkneos

You want an 'argument against suicide' - why? Are you considering suicide and want to be argued out of it? Or is it simply intellectual - you present a case 'for' with reasons, others either agree or disagree, and you either accept or refuse any 'conclusions' because...

Either way, it's good to talk about it, listen carefully to other perspectives, even if you judge them not relevant to your case. This is a public forum, not everyone participates but people read and can gain from an exchange of views.

that doesn’t involve either nonsense or special pleading to life or hindsight bias. — Darkneos

What do you consider 'nonsense'? What is 'special pleading to life'.
Is it something along the lines of wiki's:

"You aren't like me, so you do not even have a right to think about or hold opinions on my plight."
Example: Keep your advice to yourself. If you didn't grow up the way I did, then you can't understand. — Special Pleading - Wiki

'Hindsight bias' - do you have any examples used in previous 'arguments'? Is it related to:

Hindsight bias is more likely to occur when the outcome of an event is negative rather than positive.[14] This is a phenomenon consistent with the general tendency for people to pay more attention to negative outcomes of events than positive outcomes — Wiki - Hindsight Bias

Edit: you mentioned this:

I also find hind sight bias plays a big role in people saying life is worth it. Just because your life worked out doesn't mean others would and wanting them to stick around for your sake and sanity in the rightness of your choice is selfish. People have to stop being so scared to talk about death and the value of life.

Another perspective: People can look back and wonder if it was all worthwhile. The struggle and its overcoming doesn't mean that life is great or has 'worked out' well. You are right, not everyone wants the same. So what? See bolds, not sure what you're driving at. I think the topics of life and death are being more openly discussed. For example: The right to die.
MPs have voted in favour of proposals to legalise assisted dying in England and Wales.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2l7m6r55do

What I've read of the discussion so far, you seem to have been there, tried it all and either ignore or are pretty dismissive of suggestions. It seems that you have closed your ears and eyes and are focusing more on 'winning an argument'. Why does this matter to you?

The way I see it if there is no greater reason to meaning to life then there isn’t really a reason to keep going. Not reason to really struggle and fight for a place in the world. No reason to really pursue anything. One can just end their life and be done with the pursuit and struggle. — Darkneos

What do you mean by 'no greater reason to meaning to life'?

This post by @180 Proof pretty much gets straight to the point:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/953804
Ending:

That there is no inherent reason to live demonstrates that there is no inherent reason to kill yourself (or anyone else). You were Born. You Learn. You Love-Lose. (You unLearn.) You will Die. No "argument" for or against "life" – or the lack of an "argument" – changes these facts of life, so stop whining and get over yourself, dude. — 180 Proof

To me arguments for staying alive or for meaning only work if you HAVE to live. Filling life with good things, doing what you love, all that junk only has logical weight if one is unable to die until a set time. Baring that I see no reason for living. Desire for pleasures only applies if you are alive, if you die there is no need for any of that. Same with love, friendship, food, money, etc. — Darkneos

I don't know that we HAVE to live, but for the most part people want to live or are not ready to die.
Life goes on, no matter what physical or mental state we are in.

Why do you use the derogatory 'all that junk' towards the idea that people can find life rewarding in caring about self, others and the world? What does logic have to do with it? It's about being or becoming the best that you can be in sometimes difficult circumstances. Overcoming the overwhelming negatives that can surround us, externally and internally. Making the most of it. Just getting on with it, because there is nothing else for it. Unless you end it all. That is not always an option, or the best one.

If you live, there are needs and wants. It seems you don't care much for 'so-called love'.
If you die, there is no need for anything. That's logical. Why don't you want to need anything?

I don't know the answers but I've enjoyed listening to others. Good to know that your discussion continues...and people are engaging. Take care :sparkle:

Thanks for pointing out perceptions and realities of the term 'baby boomer'.
I dislike the term and how it is used to create divisions and rancour between the generations.
I dislike generalisations in particular/general...

It seems that an 'existential crisis' can happen to anyone at any point in their thinking lives. When people despair and have no hope...they can't see a way forward.

This article and the BTL comments are fascinating. Some philosophy also included:
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2024/dec/15/im-nearly-80-and-theres-a-void-in-my-life-that-hobbies-cant-fill

It's trivial compared to the subject of Suicide. However, it is real and illuminates 'existential boredom'.

You’ve achieved your ambitions, reached goals you once set for yourself, and now you find yourself at a loss. What next, after all the striving and attaining? That place you’re in is what existential philosophers call “the existential vacuum”, where the old meanings have dried up, and the activities that once filled your life no longer sustain you. This is not an uncommon experience, especially for those who have truly lived, achieved, and accomplished. You have faced life’s challenges, but now, without those goals, a deeper question is emerging: What is left?

Edit to add someone's BTL comment:

I recognize this feeling of being disconnected, unengaged, bored with life. I agree there can be profound existential questions behind this state of mind, and exploring them can be very meaningful. That said, for me (and not for everyone), existential boredom and feelings of disconnection can be signs of clinical depression. If I were struggling in this way, I include a talk to the doctor who manages my medications among my options.I can still explore the human condition and what is important and authentic to me at my stage of life when my brain is working better.

Important to recognise the reasons/causes underlying a mental state. If you think it's all in the mind, then you'd be wrong. The body and the brain are interlinked. Disconnection, mental confusion or depression has a host of physical causes. Correct diagnosis is essential if any disorder is to be fixed.

You might think you know the answers to the 'problems'. Been there, tried that. But perhaps you need to dig deeper to see what the problems or difficulties really are.

Another BTL comment:

The problem with our culture is the focus on 'telic' activities - things that lead to something. So you don't just play the piano - you play it in order to progress to harder pieces, or be good enough to perform in public or pass an exam. The LW reflects this: "I have achieved all my ambitions".
We need more appreciation for atelic activities: things we do simply for the sake of doing them, however well or badly, with no thought to them 'leading' to something.

Irrelevant, for reasons I already mentioned. There is no real need to be concerned over what happens to others if one is dead. All that stuff vanishes so why should it matter if other people hurt? — Darkneos

One is not dead when one is deciding whether one should be dead. What you just wrote frames the debate as if someone who is already dead is trying to decide if they should kill themselves. Usually someone is in the former case and not the latter.

Where other people come in is that there's a presumption in your posts so far that the person considering suicide's suffering is more important than the suffering of those they leave behind. It's a big gamble there, as a sudden death is the kind of thing that can ruin loved ones' lives...

...Even if your life is so worthless that it might as well not have been, for you, that does not mean others share that valuation. — fdrake

Yes. There seems to be a lack of imagination or empathy as to the effect on others. Perhaps they have nobody who cares for/about them. Or it seems that way. And so, the feeling is reciprocated. Perhaps they want to ruin any happiness others might appear to be enjoying. Appearances can be deceptive. Others might be just as pissed-off about life but dealing with it in their own way.

There is no real need to be concerned over what happens to others if one is dead. All that stuff vanishes so why should it matter if other people hurt? — Darkneos

'Life stuff' might not matter to you - in life or death. But it does to others. If you don't see a need to be concerned or care about people and their emotions, then so be it. I doubt you will be persuaded otherwise. Have you been hurt? Is it worse or better than not being recognised or cared for? Or is being ignored a fate worse than death?

People have to stop being so scared to talk about death and the value of life.

Perhaps people have to stop being scared to open themselves up. Perhaps there should be improved access to 'talking therapy'. To talk about life difficulties, relationships and how best to cope. Keeping it all in can be toxic. But, then again, why open a can of worms, especially when there's nobody around to catch the blighters.

There seems to be a lack of imagination or empathy as to the effect on others. — Amity

This supposedly adverse effect on others is so often grossly overstated.

Sure, if those others have depended on the person financially or in some practical way (such as for cleaning and cooking), then, sure, if that person dies, for whatever reason, those dependents will suffer a loss.

But so often, it's precisely those "loving loved ones" who push someone into taking their own life. Not rarely, they even wish for it.

This supposedly adverse effect on others is so often grossly overstated. — baker

A lack of imagination or empathy means that the person can't envisage being in someone else's shoes. There is a lack of understanding and low consideration of how their actions can affect others; their emotions or wellbeing.

This can adversely affect relationships. Because if so self-centered, they don't want to listen or know. There is little point in continuing a discussion, about suicide, with someone who sees it only as an argument to win, logically.

Some people don't even realise their lack of awareness. And the role empathy plays in building trust and maintaining good relationships. Communication.

If they show a lack of compassion, care or love, it might not be that they don't care but that they don't know how to, or haven't experienced any.

Or, in the case of certain politicians who have reached high positions of power (without much responsibility), it can be part of a narcissistic personality disorder. This type is not likely to be considering suicide. Even if they are unhappy, they have too much to live for...

There are other areas or spectrums of mental health issues but I've said enough.
Leaving it here, thanks.

Some people don't even realise their lack of awareness. And the role empathy plays in building trust and maintaining good relationships. Communication.

[...]

There are other areas or spectrums of mental health issues but I've said enough.
Leaving it here, thanks. — Amity

The irony, oh the irony.

A lack of imagination or empathy means that the person can't envisage being in someone else's shoes. There is a lack of understanding and low consideration of how their actions can affect others; their emotions or wellbeing.

This can adversely affect relationships. Because if so self-centered, they don't want to listen or know. There is little point in continuing a discussion, about suicide, with someone who sees it only as an argument to win, logically — Amity

Sounds more like you don’t have an actual case to make.

I already addressed this with my “so what” at the beginning.

'Life stuff' might not matter to you - in life or death. But it does to others. If you don't see a need to be concerned or care about people and their emotions, then so be it. I doubt you will be persuaded otherwise. Have you been hurt? Is it worse or better than not being recognised or cared for? Or is being ignored a fate worse than death? — Amity

Not an argument. Like I’ve mentioned before people who argue against it don’t have a real cases to make against it. You say “you won’t be persuaded” but that’s more signaling that you have nothing to offer and rely on people just assuming life is worthwhile and to think otherwise makes you sick, thus proving my point.

Par for the course

The irony, oh the irony. — baker

Not really. I think I've played my part in listening and responding.
I will continue to read with interest.

Par for the course — Darkneos

As are your repetitions.

I remembered this song, reading this thread. The early days of LSD as recorded by the good old BBC. I am a baker too - the dough is in tins as i write, and I am waiting the hour to put it in the oven.




I'm cluttering up the thread with meaningless stuff, because everything is meaningless, and i am an idiot. Or as I would rather put it, making a performative affirmation.