I'm saying there is a 70% chance it won't be at a suicide inducing level in the future. — LuckyR

And I'm saying you don't know that.

Which you're free to do. Though I'm wondering if you impose your "know nothing" logic to all facets of your decision making.

First, the source of the "optimism" is the Actual Data that proves that among those in your exact situation (contemplating suicide), the vast majority (70 - 93%) will change their mind and decide that life is, in fact worth living after all. — LuckyR

A source of optimism for whom? The general public?

Though your implication is correct that many can not or will not understand or accept that data. But that is an error.

What are you talking about??
So if a person is contemplating suicide, they should reflect that there is a 70 - 93% chance that they will not pull the trigger/jump off a cliff/etc.??



You keep bringing in this sociological/statistical approach to a discussion that was from the onset intended to be philosophical. You keep avoiding the OP.

While it's understandable that the discussion of existential topics has to be opaque to some extent, at some point, all this opaqueness is just a waste of time.

Don't forget people who have degenerative illnesses who would prefer to die than continue to experience suffering. Also people who have experienced traumatic events (prolonged sexual abuse, etc). The memories and pain - the PTSD may never go away either. Suicide may feel like the only method to gain permanent relief. — Tom Storm

One thing that is systematically being avoided in this discussion is the topic of shame and disgrace.

There are things that a person can do or which can happen to a person that render the person's life worthless, from then on forever.

On the one hand, there are criminal acts a person might do that the state deems so evil that the person's life must be taken via the death penalty. What the person has done might in fact be "termporary", but the state thinks the person doesn't deserve to live anymore. Treason is a prime example.

On the other hand, traditionally, some dishonoring events in a person's life, such as a woman being raped or a military general losing an important battle, for example, were considered so shameful that the person was expected to kill themselves (or be killed). It had nothing to do with PTSD or "not being able to bear the pain".

Many people who undergo such things never recover, their brains seem to be rewired by the trauma. — Tom Storm

Do people even want everyone to survive?

If yes, then why the military industry (guns are for killing people, yes), why the approval of euthanasia and assisted suicide, why the approval of capital punishment?

Are suicidal people not correctly reflecting society's actual values? Namely, that some lives are not worth living?

Kind of a dud answer if all you're gonna say is "it's subjective". — Darkneos

Perhaps the most important thing to learn in such discussions is that existential topics (including the question of suicide) are mostly pointless to try to discuss with others, and that this is due to the nature of those topics.

Not avoiding the OP. The OP makes the error of implying that death is something that individuals can opt for or against. Everyone knows death is inevitable, only the timing of it is changeable.

The reality is we're all going to spend the vast majority of eternity as not alive, the only difference is the length of the tiny fraction of eternity being alive.

As to my statistical analysis, as it happens this topic of suicide is unusual in that there is a ton of experience of prior suicidal individuals who fail at their attempt and whether their personal viewpoint at the darkest moment of their life (by definition), ended up being an accurate analysis and prediction of their personal future. This analysis is an opportunity to glimpse into the future. Ignore this opportunity at your own risk.

Perhaps the most important thing to learn in such discussions is that existential topics (including the question of suicide) are mostly pointless to try to discuss with others, and that this is due to the nature of those topics. — baker

Maybe, but they are also extremely important. To be honest such questions are more important than ontological or metaphysical stuff.

The OP makes the error of implying that death is something that individuals can opt for or against. — LuckyR

Well you can, it's just that death wins in the end.