I suppose you've left out some details. Still, though, it seems to me the liberal proposal makes more sense, the greater control over the results of giving the money coming from presumed contractual obligations on the gas power stations.

As to liberal v. conservative, liberals usually make more sense. Being one, I would know.

Being one, I would know. — tim wood

Trouble is, The Liberal Party of Australia is not.

Wouldn't the liberal strategy be to reduce taxes, keep out of the market and let the consumer choose? Using "l" to distinguish the philosophy from the party.

Same with their recently announced policy on Nuclear power. They will build seven new reactors using our money. Government owned. It's odd.

In short, we simply believe in individual freedom and free enterprise; and if you share this belief, then ours is the Party for you. — Our Beliefs

Not so much, it seems.

Did you perhaps underestimate how full of shit politicians on BOTH sides really are? I do not know the politics but it seems obvious you were misinformed or lied to about the positions they actually had. I would posit that the only ideology these parties had was staying in power and not what they profess to believe at all but Im quite cynical about politicians.
How common is this sort of reversal in Australia?

I don't think we've had a Liberal Party in Australia in some years. Old school conservatives and 'wets' were overtaken by radical free marketeers and culture war wankers. And conversely, the Labor Party tries to appeal to business and prosperous white collar people, while tradies increasingly see themselves as small business owners and Liberal voters, who often resent welfare spending. The electorate also seems to have changed. And who'd be a politician these days anyway? Most people instantly hate you, or think you're a lying, narcissistic hypocrite.

Now this is posited as an alternative to the Labour idea of giving each household a sum in order to offset the cost of electricity. — Banno

When the government gives money directly to citizens for a particular purpose that money may seem like an invitation to celebrate in various ways rather than use for its intended purpose. That happened here under covid, although there was no pretense it be used for children's health, etc. The temptation to celebrate might not be as strong if gas prices are reduced a bit. Just a thought.

The history of election promises in countries like here can be divided into 1/ kept or 2/ unkept, with further subdivisions. These subdivisions express the degree of 1/ or 2/ and give excuses/reasons as to why 1/ or 2/ could or should be attributed.
Which party makes or breaks these promises is given a name which can change from time to time (with some exceptions).
To believe that a party's name or history of election promises is indicative of a single interpretation of its own "mission statement" is to show democratic political naivety.

But to comment on @Banno opening comment. Liberal's use to support the big end of town and Labor used to support the little man. But there have been changes along the way both interspectionally and intraspectionally, perception-wise.

"...Labor policy to be to take public control of the gas industry" expresses pre-Neoliberal Labor values .ie. back in the 1950s-60s. Ancient history in today's world view!

Notice the independents collectively called Teals have a taste for partyism but also want to have and to eat their cake.

No argument, just observation based on life long experience ( for what that's limited in its worth).

2 cents worth of smile

Did you see this?

@Tom Storm,

Well made point with that video. Enough room for multiple interpretations, like politics.

appreciative smile

:up:

I don't think we've had a Liberal Party in Australia in some years. — Tom Storm

Perhaps Fraser? It was astonishing how much he improved after he left office.

The recent ACT election was a walkover for Labor, followed by the usual Liberal backstabbing leadership struggle. For some odd reason they seem to think that the best way to get elected in the most left-leaning state or territory is to shuffle even further to the right...

So the issue is, Federally, how much damage are they doing to themselves, if any? Or is the brand name now irrelevant?

And how long until they hand whatever reactors they succeed in building over to Gina Rinehart?

So here's a thread for us to "sit up the back and judge others".

Perhaps the teaching of (unfettered) civics and critical thinking at all levels of education, (civics up to undergraduate level where it can go on as professional ethics etc) may be the best educational improvement for the tidying up of politics.
But which political theory/ system would/could ( with)stand the probable outcome in the real world.
Governance, good or otherwise, rarely withstands intense scrutiny on a decision by decision basis. And not everybody takes/applies what they're taught on into their lives.

just a smile

Perhaps Fraser? It was astonishing how much he improved after he left office. — Banno

Yes... I noted also that Fraser thought Hawke/Keating were too 'right-wing' and pro-business when they floated the dollar and deregulated the labour market and let treasury call the shots.

So the issue is, Federally, how much damage are they doing to themselves, if any? Or is the brand name now irrelevant? — Banno

I'm not a close follower of politics but I suspect the game is changing. It's not that the brand name is irrelevant, perhaps it's more a case of how brands function - there may be more mobility in what they can align with. But only if the public buy it. And I guess Dutton thought he would try something new in the hope it would resonate? How else to understand it?

And how long until they hand whatever reactors they succeed in building over to Gina Rinehart? — Banno

If she were smart she could almost be Musk to Dutton's Trump...

And I guess Dutton thought he would try something new in the hope it would resonate? How else to understand it? — Tom Storm

I'm thinking the logic doesn't go beyond "We need something different to the ALP's policy... this is different, let's do this!"

If she were smart she could almost be Musk to Dutton's Trump... — Tom Storm

If...

As Tom said, who'd take on the job?

I've some admiration for David Pocock, whom I have heard speak; if he is faking his sincerity, then he is a master.

@Banno,

Any party of the foreseeable future [that is while we wait out this social media driven ( amongst other drivers) populist trend in current politics,] is capable of "...hand(ing) whatever reactors.....over to ( the party's latest election funders)".
Dollars of advertising buys votes, apparently. Too many disengaged voters make this possible here, despite compulsory voting. Times were when this country got the governance it required at an election.
Now, maybe we do or maybe we don't?
That last line may originate from disillusionment of youth or cynicism of age.
Such is life.

Sober smile

If I give a twenty to someone on the street, I don't much care if they spend it on booze instead of a salad. Folk do what they do to get by.

Any snark and local references aside, what do you say the without-which-not difference or differences are that distinguish liberal from conservative? My own view is that a liberal asks what good he can do, and how, and then tries to do it The conservative what he can afford.

Interesting question. Our Liberal party has been a Tory party. The name an accident of history. Our Liberals are more aligned with and sympathetic to US Republicans.

I heard that Australia is in the process of implementing a law that prohibits anyone under 16 from using social media.

Yes. That'll work. :rofl:

"Conservative" means, pretty much, The Establishment. So yes, it's 'What can I afford", by way of keeping things as they are. This is historically the squattocarcy, in the bush, and the landlords, in the city. They are at most a small minority, and so their interests are anti-democratic. They use the Liberal Party as a front to bolster their voting power.

Well, you have sunshine, Europe doesn't always have it. Hence you have the case of Germany that closed all of it's nuclear stations and now is paying literally the price for it and has to turn to fossil fuels. And not only Germany, but also other countries suffer too from stupid German decisions. This just a reminder that energy policy is something that effects the economy along other matters, not just an ecological issue. Unfortunately energy policy isn't usually done with long term planning and usually isn't done in the realm of reality, but with hopeful optimism and well sounding principles. Or then is something equivalent of the US shouting match where one side is yelling: "Drill, baby, Drill!!!"



Of course, you have your own Continent and even Indonesia and other smaller island nations are so far away that might as well forget it. But anyway, how is Aussie energy policy going?

Curious.

Australia's energy policy? That's a laugh. It's been impossible to invest in major energy projects for decades because of the tossing and turning. Energy projects need stability. The Liberals have been in denial with regard to the environment, and science in general. Both Labor and Liberal Parties are beholden to gas and coal - huge exports.

Gas is a joke. We rank fifth in the world for exports, but have a shortage of gas for domestic supply; a result of the most absurd lack of forethought.

We are pretty much made of coal, one way or another, but haven't built a new coal power station since the early nineties*. We sell the stuff to India and China instead.

Most Australian houses could pretty much power themselves with solar and a battery - I do - and so the uptake of rooftop solar is enormous. Around a third have PV.

Here's a comparison of the two main parties, and the Greens. It's outdated, as the LNP have just introduced a plan to build seven nuclear power plants, using very sus economics, and gas, to sort things out.

* A couple were built in WA, as it turns out. I stand corrected.

Infrastructure has suffered years of neglect.

...even Indonesia and other smaller island nations are so far away... — ssu

Maybe not... Australia-Asia Power Link

Typical of large scale investment here.

Sounds like a Western energy policy to me. :lol:

It's interesting that usually all Western countries really underperform in energy policy so badly, that one can question if there really is a true long term energy policy. Usually there isn't.

Australians are one of the biggest countries for carbon emissions, per capita your rank is 16th with 15 tonnes of CO2 emissions per capita, which is the highest emissions in OECD countries, or Western democracies. Yes, it's higher than the drilling loving Americans, Canadians or Russians. France has 4,6 tonnes per capita and my country has 6,7 tonnes. So... should we, the other members of the PF, have this Greta Thunberg moment and shame you and Australia?

@Banno, HOW DARE U!


After that hypocritical moment of gaslighting (pun intended), let's continue.

Your country is of course famous for it's mining industry, but just like with modern farming, mining doesn't employ people as it used to do. But I guess it's important for your exports and tax income.

Typical of large scale investment here. — Banno

When first things that pops up from that link are terms like "World's largest solar plant" with "World's largest submarine power cable", you know there's the possibility later in hindsight the "failure" and "boondoggle". And oh wait, further reading it seems it's not the World's largest solar plant. 6 gigawatt production is basically six small old nuclear power plants. Still something! :up:

Yet typical Western energy policy. This is universal, really. :smile:

shame you and Australia — ssu

Well how else we gunna pay for our holiday in Bali? Besides, it's not US who burn the coal... we just sell it to China and India. It't them you should blame...

Or so the story goes.

Besides, it's not US who burn the coal... we just sell it to China and India. It't them you should blame... — Banno

Yep, That's the inconvenient truth:




The idea of making fossil fuels artificially expensive and renewables artificially cheap doesn't work. In the end when something is far more cheaper, then change happens.

Δ% graphs are a bit deceptive. What it shows is that China and India have been undergoing development.

Here's an ABC report that came out today.