• Brendan Golledge
    139
    I have previously discussed the plausibility of a creator god in the post "A Functional Deism". I realized sometime later that if I just assume that my speculation is correct, then I can write a creation myth similar to past creation myths. This is useful from a psychological perspective, because the values of a culture are embedded in their stories and myths. So, in writing this, I am creating my own religion. The story:



    Before the beginning, there was God. Nothing was before God, and neither does God depend on anything else. It is difficult to say much about God, because he is before logic and before matter. God has no body, and he exists neither in time nor space. Yet in God, in the abstract, exists all else that could be.

    God decided that he is good, because otherwise, nothing else could be. So, he created a Great Garden. He spoke math into the void, and existence sprang into being. In this garden, all that could be springs into existence in turn of its own accord. God loves everything that is in his garden.

    In other stories, existence is a battle between good and evil. But this is not so. Humans made these stories from their own experience. God has no equal, so there is no one for him to do battle with. God is not vulnerable, so there is nothing that he needs to accomplish. He made the Great Garden to simply exist, and he made it exactly the way he liked on his first try.

    It is a feature of this garden that new forms are created from death and destruction. This is sad in a limited sense, because of the loss of what was good. But new comes, and it is often better than the old. Also, sitting outside of time, God sees all that ever was or will be forever before his eyes. Nothing is ever truly lost to him.

    There are living beings in this garden. Like everything else in the garden, they each bloom, dance, and wither in turn. The purpose of these beings is similar to the purpose of a flower. The gardener plants them because he believes that they are beautiful. It is not necessary that the flower understands its purpose.

    It is a lesser good for living beings to do what they can to exist. This is pleasing to God, because he likes existing things. But the goodness of God is incomparably greater, and living beings have no power to affect this in the slightest. Existence as a whole is also greater by far than any individual part of existence.

    God has no need of covenants, but it is still possible for living beings to commune with him, in a limited sense. When a being practices virtues that build his life up, and avoids vices that tear his life down, then he is participating in the immortality that existed before he was born. To explain further, abstracts ideas are immortal in the sense that they are true (or false) regardless of what time it is. Virtues, in particular, allow us to exist. So, to whatever degree a being instantiates a virtue in the particulars of his life, he is, in a certain sense, participating in the immortality of the abstraction. Also, God loves all that exists. So, doing what one can to exist while he can, and doing what he can to provide for his successors is pleasing to God. But do not worry one's self over doing more than one can, because it was not given to us to do everything that we might dream of. Also, when we see existence as it really is, and see beauty in that, then we see the world in small part the way that God sees it.

    The only way it is possible to rebel against God is to destroy one's self by one's own foolishness. But this is of little concern to God, because doing so will only cause you to be replaced sooner by those who will do his will better.




    The motive for writing this was dissatisfaction with the Christian religion. The confusion in the church(es) makes it difficult for me to believe that they are being guided by the Holy Spirit as Christians claim. Certain Bible passages do not make sense to me (such as how the lineages in the Old Testament are compatible with the scientific evidence for an old Earth), which makes it difficult for me to take the Bible as an infallible source of knowledge. Also, to be a Christian, I have to believe in a bunch of promises that I have no way of verifying. This creation myth teaches value in existence for its own sake without requiring (so far as I know) any faith in unscientific doctrine, or in unverifiable promises. Christians believe that there is both natural revelation and special revelation, but my religion is basically Christianity if you throw out all the special revelation. You know God by doing your best to infer from what he created.

    There is a psychological problem that people have, in that we'd like to believe that existence is good (otherwise being alive really sucks), but we have the experience of many bad things happening. It seems to me that different religions address this problem in different ways:
    • Christianity teaches hope for an unverifiable better future
    • Buddhism teaches detachment from desire
    • My religion teaches that reality is good as it is right now, but that the goodness of this existence might have little connection to our personal desires.

    In general, there is no difference between believing that you hold a value and actually holding that value (except in the case of self-deception, which is a whole other topic I'm not going to address at the moment). So, for instance, if I believe that chocolate is my favorite flavor of ice-cream, then my belief makes the belief true. Therefore, it ought to be possible, in general, to believe in any arbitrarily asserted value, and such a belief cannot be disproven, so long as it does not contradict sensory evidence or contain an internal contradiction.

    I think it is possible without internal contradiction to assert that existence as a whole is good. If I imagine the worst thing that could happen, it's something like a meteor striking the Earth and killing everything. Or what would be even worse would be if the laws of physics broke somehow and existence simply stopped existing. But nothingness doesn't seem to be morally evil; it just seems to be morally neutral. So, one can think of every positively existing thing as being good, and bad as being only the loss of good. And it doesn't seem possible to lose anything that you haven't been given first. For instance, pain is usually a sign of decreasing health. But you can't lose health that you don't already have.

    The only way I could imagine a world that would seem to be objectively evil would be that if God were actively malicious and sent everyone without exception to hell to be given excruciating torture forever with no possibility of relief. But I'm not aware of any evidence that this is the case, and in the natural world view, this would not be expected.
  • kindred
    147
    I think that is a better version of Christianity, where human beings are able to exist without any repercussions regarding the choices they make in their life and being able to choose whether to acknowledge such a God or not as you say he does not require any covenants.

    Your view of God in this respect is similar to mine, but with the added bonus of immortality granted to beings who express his will the best and who are as morally good as it is possible.

    However I do not subscribe to the creation myth or garden idea because I cannot infer purpose from god nor any motivation behind his reason for creating this world. It could be that initially god rolled the dice and created the universe where life may emerge due to intrinsic inevitability of the properties of physics, maths and matter such that life’s emergence was inevitable not just on this planet.

    This leads to many questions such as his relationship to his creation and creatures within it, as god himself is immortal does is this property also inherited by human beings who wish to attain immortality as well or is it just an exclusive property belonging to god only? If so then we are but the flicker of a candle in the wind compared to god’s eternal existence. If we have no intrinsic purpose to our existence but to enjoy it (and some don’t) then if we die never to be reborn then our creation was meaningless.
  • 180 Proof
    15.4k
    Yet in God, in the abstract, exists all else that could be.Brendan Golledge
    It makes more sense to me – cogently, parsimoniously, naturalistically – to substitute existence (or laws of nature (à la Laozi or Epicurus, Spinoza or Einstein)) for "God".
  • kindred
    147


    I assume that would mean that God is not separate from his creation. I guess the question is where did these laws of nature, physics etc come from or who created them if god and existence are equivalent.
  • 180 Proof
    15.4k
    Why assume existence "comes from" anything else or is "created"?
  • kindred
    147

    I was just asking…
    Uncreated, eternal existence is easier to digest logically than a created one, granted, as the latter would require how’s and why’s etc, where’s the former would not be prone to such questioning.

    Indeed the uncreated existence (laws of nature) can be seen as God in some ways in the way that Einstein and Spinoza conceived God for example, but another question that comes to mind is if these laws of nature are eternal could it not yield a god in the way some monotheistic religions describe it as? After all in this type of eternal existence some sort of omnipotence could arise…
  • 180 Proof
    15.4k
    Yes, I don't see why 'Spinoza's God' (i.e. natura naturans) could not have produced – evolved-developed within the constraints of its 'physical laws' – superhuman beings (with technoscientific mastery (perhaps several orders of magnitude more advanced than our own today (re: Clarke's Third Law)) which h. sapiens have worshipped – superstitiously misrecognized – as "gods".
  • Brendan Golledge
    139
    My idea of the creator God comes from cosmological arguments. That means by definition, whatever exists without being caused is God. So, if the laws of physics are eternal and simply exist without cause, then they are God. Even if that were the case, that still leaves the unanswered question of how all the matter got instantiated (because Mathematical laws can exist without material instantiation). I heard Carl Jung talk once about the likelihood that God is unconscious. I didn't like that idea, but if it were true, I can see no difference between an unconscious creator God and the laws of physics.

    I've heard arguments that I think are convincing that the scientific method was developed in the first place because people believed there was an intelligent creator God, and that therefore nature was rational. Math is a kind of language, and Genesis says that God created by speaking, so at the highest abstract level, Genesis appears to be true in this sense. Even if none of the rest of it is true, this points towards the idea of a creator God as being the best model of reality that people had yet come up with, because it bore fruit.

    I realize that this is speculative, but I'm not aware that anyone could prove that this story did not happen. It is a convenient scaffold for a philosophical viewpoint.
  • Brendan Golledge
    139
    I think that is a better version of Christianity, where human beings are able to exist without any repercussions regarding the choices they make in their life and being able to choose whether to acknowledge such a God or not as you say he does not require any covenants.

    Your view of God in this respect is similar to mine, but with the added bonus of immortality granted to beings who express his will the best and who are as morally good as it is possible.

    However I do not subscribe to the creation myth or garden idea because I cannot infer purpose from god nor any motivation behind his reason for creating this world. It could be that initially god rolled the dice and created the universe where life may emerge due to intrinsic inevitability of the properties of physics, maths and matter such that life’s emergence was inevitable not just on this planet.

    This leads to many questions such as his relationship to his creation and creatures within it, as god himself is immortal does is this property also inherited by human beings who wish to attain immortality as well or is it just an exclusive property belonging to god only? If so then we are but the flicker of a candle in the wind compared to god’s eternal existence. If we have no intrinsic purpose to our existence but to enjoy it (and some don’t) then if we die never to be reborn then our creation was meaningless.
    kindred

    I didn't imagine that people become immortal in the Christian sense. The particulars of our minds and bodies do not become immortal (so far as I know). My idea was that abstract ideas (such as perhaps the virtues of patience, perseverance, or temperance) are immortal, so that in-so-far as we practice these virtues, we are participating in the life of immortal virtues. So, it is not that individual humans actually live forever, but that while they are alive, they become like things that are immortal. I think of this less like hope in some unverifiable paradise, than as another way of seeing the world as it actually exists right now. I think in the case of virtues, one man's charity does not interfere with another man's charity, and one man's temperance does not interfere with another man's temperance. But one man's greed would interfere with another man's greed. So it seems to me that the virtues are virtually the same for everyone, but the vices are all individual. So, the virtue I practice is in principle the same as the virtues that were practices thousands of years ago, and are also the same as the virtues that might be practiced thousands of years in the future. That is the sense in which I participate in the life of the immortal. I think in a definitional sense, I define virtues as any positive habit that builds one's life up (the easiest to think of could be diet and exercise), whereas a vice is something that tears your life down (like smoking, because it hurts your health and your wallet).

    The idea in this creation myth is that since we can't infer a utilitarian purpose for things, perhaps those things exist for their own sake. That is the story behind this creation myth. And in the story, the laws of physics are set up precisely so that stars, life, and the rest, will spontaneously arise. The whole point of the story is to let you interpret meaning in the world as it actually exists right now.


    Now to address your last paragraph. I don't think humans are immortal, because it appears that our existence is dependent on the arrangement of matter in our bodies, so that there is no reason to believe that we continue to exist after the matter takes a different form. So then, yes, I think it is likely that we are a flicker of a candle in the wind compared to God's existence. It is normal, I think, to imagine that our lives are meaningless if they are temporary, since we come from a culturally Christian background that teaches an afterlife. As I discussed after the creation myth, however, whatever you are genuinely able to believe with respect to values becomes true, at least to you. I have often thought in my life before whether it's possible for me to do anything that's not in vain, and eventually I came up with the answer, "If there's a moment in which I wouldn't wish anything to be different, or even for the moment to last longer, then it is worth it, at least to me in that moment" That seems to be true, by definition, isn't it? Whatever I find to be worth it and meaningful, IS worth it and meaningful to me. If I imagine that simply existing as I am for a time is meaningful, then I am content. And the point of this creation myth is not that we exist for our own pleasure, but that we exist for God's pleasure (I suppose this retains that element of Christian mythology that meaning is derived from God). As it said, we are like flowers. "It is not necessary that the flower understands its purpose." I do think there is an argument to be made that a creator God's opinion about the purpose of existence is more valid than anyone else's. If some random Joe makes a widget, that Joe has more authority than anyone else to say what he made it for, even if somebody uses it for a different purpose. That doesn't mean that we have to respect God's wishes for the purpose of creation, but I can't think of anyone else who can more convincingly come up with a different purpose. This God is truly omnipotent and immovable in the sense that his purpose is for things to exist for their own sake, so that it's literally impossible for humans to thwart his purpose no matter what they do. His will IS done. There is no conflict to God.
  • Gnomon
    3.8k
    Before the beginning, there was God. Nothing was before God, and neither does God depend on anything else. It is difficult to say much about God, because he is before logic and before matter. God has no body, and he exists neither in time nor space. Yet in God, in the abstract, exists all else that could be.Brendan Golledge
    I don't view Deism*1 as a religion, but simply a philosophical worldview that attempts to explain the contingent existence of our physical world, and its intelligent creatures, without resorting to magical thinking, or by putting words in the mouth of an anthropomorphic fascist-father-figure in the sky.

    Several years ago, I thought about writing a Deist Creation Myth that is consistent with modern science. But, unlike Spinoza in the 17th century, I couldn't just assume that our world (Natura sive Deus) is self-existent, because we now have evidence for a "big bang" beginning of space-time & matter-energy. And, since the bang did not instantly fizzle out like fireworks, I had to account for the Cause & Laws that reveal themselves in progressive Evolution, over far more than 6000 years. But I also could not give any credence to the pre-scientific scriptural myths of Judeo-Christian religions. So, my myth had to include a plausible First Cause & Law-Giver, that didn't resort to miracles to fix human problems. I guess you can see that it would have to be a provisional Deist myth instead of an absolute Theist Faith.

    My approach is somewhat different than yours, in part because I can't imagine what an eternal-infinite "God" might do or think. As you said, "It is difficult to say much about God, because he is before logic and before matter. God has no body, and he exists neither in time nor space". So, the story only gives a cursory background, and focuses on the conditions related to the "birth" of our world. The rest. as they say, is history. However, since Intelligent beings, such as the posters on this forum, have emerged from eons of Cosmic evolution, I must assume that the anonymous First Cause must also be Intelligent & Intentional, instead of an infinite chain of rambling stumbling Chaotic un-aimed accidents.

    In the essay linked below*2, I coined some new terminology, such as In-Form-Action, because our current language has no way to express the novel notion of Energy as a Causal program. In my blog, I now spell it EnFormAction. My neologisms, and other unorthodox terminology, are defined in the Blog Glossary*3. Do you see any commonality or overlap between your myth and mine? :smile:


    *1. Deism :
    An Enlightenment era response to the Roman Catholic version of Theism, in which the supernatural deity interacts and intervenes with humans via visions & miracles, and rules his people through a human dictator. Deists rejected most of the supernatural stuff, but retained an essential role for a First Cause creator, who must be respected as the quintessence of our world, but not worshipped like an imperial tyrant. The point of Deism is not to seek salvation, but merely understanding.
    https://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page12.html

    *2. Intelligent Evolution :
    A 21st Century Creation Myth
    https://gnomon.enformationism.info/Essays/Intelligent%20Evolution%20Essay_Prego_120106.pdf
    Note --- Yes, the essay agrees with Intelligent Design theory, except in the designation of the designer.

    *3. BothAnd Blog Glossary :
    Since they are based on an unconventional worldview, many traditional terms are used in unusual contexts, and some new terminology has been coined in order to convey their inter-connected meanings as clearly as possible.
    https://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page2.html
  • 180 Proof
    15.4k
    Before the beginning, there was God.Brendan Golledge
    "Before the beginning" = north of the north pole :roll:

    Nothing was before God, and neither does God depend on anything else.
    Again, it makes more sense – cogently, parsimoniously, naturalistically – to substitute existence (or laws of nature (à la Laozi or Epicurus, Spinoza or Einstein)) for "God".

    Fwiw, my own No Creator Myth, etc ...
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/569517 (further links included)

    How is it that "creator" is not merely an unwarranted anthropomorphization / personification of chance? Or that cosmos is not one of countless phase transitions of chaos? :chin:

    To infer 'intentional agency' from current cosmology is, at best, unsound (i.e. :sparkle: -of-the-gaps).
  • Brendan Golledge
    139


    "Before the beginning" is not actually an arbitrary phrase. The matter we are familiar with only acts after it's first acted upon. So, it follows that if there was a first cause, it can't be anything at all like the matter we are familiar with. So, that leads to the idea that the first cause does not exist within time and space like matter does. It is a very traditional Christian idea that God exists outside of time. The Nicene Creed even says that the Son was begotten from the Father before all ages. So, the idea of God existing before time is an old one that has made sense to people in the past. Also, math appears to be true regardless of what time it is, so, it sounds reasonable to say that math might still have been true before the Big Bang. So, there is at least one thing we are already familiar with that has its existence independently of time.

    I read the essay from Gnomon about a deistic God. I guess I don't have much to say, because most of it sounds plausible. The main thing I noticed that I might disagree with is the analogy of creation being like an egg or a fetus. Based on what I discussed immediately above, we have good reason to think that a creator god must be utterly unlike anything that we've ever experienced. So, it makes more sense as an analogy to think of existence as a creation than as a birth, because if it were a birth, that would seem to imply that we were the same type of thing as God. So, I like the traditional Jewish/Christian analogy for existence as creation better.

    I haven't spent much time thinking about pandeism before. Here's what I thought of in a couple minutes. Part of the point of this post was to imbed a moral foundation within the creation myth. Your creation myth (180 Proof) was very short, so I don't think it did that much. I suppose if everything is God, then that means that everything is holy. I suppose that's pointing in a similar direction to what I was trying to point at in my story, that everything is good for its own sake. I think the main difference would be that in the deist world-view, God is eternal and still exists separately from his creation after it has been created, whereas in the pandeist view, there is nothing outside of "creation". It seems to me that since math is eternal and abstract and seems to exist independently of matter, that the deist creator god fits together more nicely with mathematics than the pandeist god. The creator god also points more towards the existence of a supernatural or otherworldliness, whereas pandeism would not seem to do this. Since it's all speculative, I suppose the most that could be said of one conception rather than another is that it's more or less plausible or has different moral implications.

    Again, it makes more sense – cogently, parsimoniously, naturalistically – to substitute existence (or laws of nature (à la Laozi or Epicurus, Spinoza or Einstein)) for "God".180 Proof
    I briefly discussed in one of my earlier replies that I can't imagine a difference between an unconscious creator god and the laws of physics. They would seem to me to basically be the same thing. So, I wonder if you're taking more offense at the word, "god" than with the idea itself.
  • 180 Proof
    15.4k
    Pandeism (as I've explicitly pointed out) means that 'the deity' BECAME the universe and therefore 'the deity' does not exist while the universe exists. "Everything is holy" is either animism or pantheism, not pandeism. Your supernatural-bias blinds you to what I've actually written – unless you haven't even read or comprehended my posts (& links).
  • Gnomon
    3.8k
    "Before the beginning" is not actually an arbitrary phrase. The matter we are familiar with only acts after it's first acted upon. So, it follows that if there was a first cause, it can't be anything at all like the matter we are familiar with. . . . . math might still have been true before the Big Bang.Brendan Golledge
    's trite comparison of a metaphysical a priori concept, Original Cause, with our physical experience of the arbitrary designation of a navigational North Pole on a spherical planet, is completely missing the philosophical principle of how to explain the scientific Big Bang beginning of our space-time universe. The "true" North Pole is a human construct (idea), not a physical place, and the magnetic pole wanders*1. The Cause of our Cosmos is neither a place nor a time.

    As you implied, alternatives to the god-postulate --- such as the Multiverse conjectures --- simply assume that the "before" was not a timeless First Cause principle, but a chain of mundane material causation without beginning or end. Yet I agree with you that our material world is a morphological effect --- something from Singularity --- and the Prime Mover must be more like a determining action (cosmic bang). Both Mathematics and Energy are defined in terms of logical & causal relationships*2*3. So I can agree that whatever caused the Big Bang must be more like logical Math & causal Energy than mundane malleable Matter. I call it EnFormAction : the power to cause form change. :smile:

    *1. "True north" refers to the geographic North Pole, a fixed point on Earth's axis of rotation, while "magnetic north" is the direction a compass needle points to, which is influenced by the Earth's magnetic field and constantly shifts, meaning it is not a fixed point. ___Google AI overview

    *2. Math is built on a foundation of logic, with each theorem, proof, and equation derived from logical rules. ___Google AI overview

    *3. Yes, in the context of physics and science, "energy is logical" because it follows consistent and predictable laws, ___Google AI overview

    . . . disagree with the analogy of creation being like an egg or a fetus. Based on what I discussed immediately above, we have good reason to think that a creator god must be utterly unlike anything that we've ever experienced.Brendan Golledge
    The analogy of the Big Bang with an Egg or Fetus is a metaphor, not to be taken literally. Yet, I can't agree that the Creator "must be utterly unlike" anything in the Creation. I suppose your God-model is imagined as an immaterial Spirit. But I think the Creation must have something in common with the Creator, in order for us philosophers to even imagine what it's like. The word "like" implies a comparison.

    The traditional notion of Spirit is more mind-like & energy-like than matter-like*4. My thesis observes that invisible relational causal Energy is more mind-like than anything else in the non-human world, and Creation is an Action. Therefore, I coined the term EnFormAction to combine Platonic (ideal) Form with Aristotelian (physical) Causation : Form + Action. :nerd:

    *4. Mind :
    In the Enformationism thesis, this common term is used in some uncommon senses. Ordinarily, Mind is equated with Consciousness, but I sometimes use it in a more general sense to include all kinds of information & energy processing.
    https://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page15.html

    the deist creator god fits together more nicely with mathematics than the pandeist god.Brendan Golledge
    I agree that the pre-space-time Creator of the Cosmos should be more like timeless Logical Mathematics (ratios ; relationships) than like the time-bound entropy-destined material aspects of the world. But if the timeless Creator necessarily existed eternally prior to the creation event we call Big Bang, then it would not be identical to the space-time Creation (Pandeism)*5. Instead, the temporary Effect would exist as a momentary blip within the eternal existence of the Cause. That god-model is known as PanEnDeism*6*7. :halo:

    *5. A number of Christian writers have examined the concept of pandeism (a belief that God created and then became the universe and ceased to exist as a separate entity.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_pandeism

    *6. There is something called PanEnDeism which perceives God or the Divine as being part of nature and somehow beyond the universe.
    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/panendeism

    *7. PanEnDeism :
    # Panendeism is an ontological position that explores the interrelationship between God (The Cosmic Mind) and the known attributes of the universe. Combining aspects of Panentheism and Deism, Panendeism proposes an idea of God that both embodies the universe and is transcendent of its observable physical properties.
    https://panendeism.org/faq-and-questions/
    # Note : PED is distinguished from general Deism, by its more specific notion of the G*D/Creation relationship; and from PanDeism by its understanding of G*D as supernatural creator rather than the emergent soul of Nature. Enformationism is a Panendeistic worldview.

    https://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page16.html

    I briefly discussed in one of my earlier replies that I can't imagine a difference between an unconscious creator god and the laws of physics.Brendan Golledge
    arbitrarily & "parsimoniously" limits his god-model to the immanent knowable things of Spinoza's space-time Natural world. But in order to accept that 17th century paradigm, he would have to ignore or deny the evidence of a point-of-beginning for Space-Time. Your god-model, and mine, are more like a meta-physical Idea than a physical Thing. But which is simpler : the Chicken or the Egg ; the Cause or the Effect? Some imagine that God must be infinitely complex, but that's a materialistic notion, not a philosophical principle. If the Creation has evolved sentient creatures, then the pre-conscious Creator of natural laws must have the Potential for Consciousness (ability to know), even though objectless thought might not be identical to our Actual experience of the material world. :cool:
  • Brendan Golledge
    139
    I'm used to thinking of God as being holy. So, if the universe is God, then it would follow that the universe is holy. I guess if he died to create the universe, then nothing would be holy. This is the first time I've tried to think about this idea, so pardon me if I didn't get all the details right on my first try.
  • Gnomon
    3.8k
    So, in writing this, I am creating my own religion.Brendan Golledge
    Do you view yourself as the founder of a religious movement, as opposed to merely the author of a novel religious worldview/manifesto? Due in part to the confusing plethora of other religions, and in some cases, direct resistance to the competition, starting a new religion ain't easy.

    Years ago --- after the worldwide shock of 9/11/2001 --- I tentatively joined a local college student "club", that was originally called The Deus Project, and led by a pre-med student, who later became a doctor. Within a couple of years, the "club" became a website, and the name was changed to The Universist Movement. Due to its broadened appeal, it eventually attracted a variety of people who could be identified as "spiritual but not religious", yet even included some Atheists and Agnostics. Online members were located all around the world, but mostly in English speaking countries. In the Manifesto written by the student leader, it said "The Deus Project began by addressing Deism with the mission to make it into a 'religion of the future'. We wanted to fix what was wrong with Deism, and make it a satisfying replacement for faith, by determining why it failed. Our conclusion was that the opposite of faith, uncertainty, is the only satisfying antidote."

    Unfortunately, as an online religion, I suspect that it never became as popular as Satanism. And due to internal philosophical divisions --- atheist vs agnostic ; materialist vs spiritualist ; etc --- the movement fizzled away into a footnote on failed religious movements. :sad:


    ↪180 Proof
    I'm used to thinking of God as being holy. So, if the universe is God, then it would follow that the universe is holy.
    Brendan Golledge
    Holiness and Sacredness are expansions on the ancient notion of Taboo, in which certain things (foods, weapons, etc,) were reserved exclusively for a hierarchy of gods & kings & nobles. Another aspect of Taboo was that certain proscribed things --- such a woman's menstruation --- were disgusting & repellent. I mention this because Holiness and Taboo are faith-based non-democratic notions, which eventually lead to a hierarchical priesthood, and a pantheon of saints. Do you envision your "religion" in such terms? Would it involve worship of the universe, or sacred trees? :smile:

    Holy : dedicated or consecrated to God or a religious purpose; sacred.
    ___Oxford dictionary

    Taboo : The English term taboo comes from tapu in Oceanic languages, particularly Polynesian languages, with such meanings as "prohibited" or "forbidden".
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taboo
  • 180 Proof
    15.4k

    We wanted to fix what was wrong with Deism, ... by determining why it failed. — Gnomon
    Afaik, deism is just 'the god of theism' on its day off (or on vacation), and so, if the latter is a fiction (e.g. ontologically separate – "transcendent" – from existence aka "nonexistent"), then the former must also be fictional. :chin:

    Alternatively, by analogy, just as "the big bang" is a (measureable by current physics) twist in a Möbius-like loop process that marks only a (ca.13.8 billion year old) developmental change to the latest version of the universe and not "the beginning" (à la Hartle-Hawking), pandeists speculate that 'the current phase – observable, explicable nature – in the eternal cycle of of existence (à la Laozi, Epicurus, Spinoza, Nietzsche) is only an undead-like decaying corpse of (the) deity that will reincarnate and subsequently destroy itself (à la P. Mainländer) and then reincarnate again infinitely many times (à la the multiverse and/or R. Penrose's conformal cyclical cosmos). Imo, this myth of ontological immanence is much less unintelligible (i.e. question-begging, evidence-free, nihilistic) than typical transcendence – dualist / supernaturalist – myths, and thereby more rational. :fire:
  • Gnomon
    3.8k
    ↪Brendan Golledge
    We wanted to fix what was wrong with Deism, ... by determining why it failed. — Gnomon
    Afaik, deism is just 'the god of theism' on its day off (or on vacation), and so, if the latter is a fiction (e.g. ontologically separate – "transcendent" – from existence aka "nonexistent"), then the former must also be fictional. :chin:[/quote]

    Brendan, is this how you view Deism : as a continuation of Theism without the bad parts (e.g. possibility of eternity in Hell)? If so, then may be justified in ridiculing it as a Pollyanna "fiction", based on non-empirical (transcendent) presumptions.

    However, the alternative explanations for human existence (e.g. Multiverse) are also transcendent & non-empirical. Moreover, Spinoza's theory of immanent PanDeism or PanPsychism begs the Ontological question of our contingent temporal existence, when faced with empirical evidence for an inexplicable space-time beginning : a creation event. But, if you postulate an eternal Creator to play the role of First Cause, then, sans divine revelation, you are left with no further information upon which to build your philosophical god-model.

    Which is why I make no assumptions about a Transcendent existence, apart from its logical necessity. For example, I have no good explanation for Why an eternal deity would create a temporal world, and then "take a day off". Or why an immanent deity would suddenly & inexplicably self-create in a burst of energy & laws. I simply imagine the Big Bang as the execution of a computer program, and Evolution as its ongoing implementation. Ironically, our world is a program with sentient beings, who question where they came from and where they are going*1. With only empirical information to go on, we can at best theorize & speculate about both ends of the time-cycle of physical existence. And that's what philosophers do, in order to intuit the Purpose behind the Program (if any). :smile:


    *1. Setting aside such questions as why a loving god would choose to "create intelligent life through such a horrific process as natural selection". Philip Goff, in Philosophy Now Dec-Jan
  • Brendan Golledge
    139
    I admitted when I originally wrote the post that I was working off speculation.

    According to cosmological arguments, a first cause is one of the options for explaining existence, which implies something like a creator god. So, this part is at least plausible. Alternatives are an infinite regression of causes, or circular causality.

    Some very basic assumptions about the nature of a creator god would say that he would create a world similar to ours. These arguments are time consuming and I've done them already.

    Also, prior to the scientific revolution, pretty much all people were religious almost without exception. However, it is the people who believed in a creator god who came up with the scientific method. Also, the existence of mathematics was not considered strange by theists/deists, but it is sometimes considered strange by atheists. So, among all the previously existing religious beliefs, belief in a creator god appears to be the most adaptive.

    According to the is-ought dilemma, it's technically not possible to infer an ought from an is. However, if we assume something like, "We care why God made existence," then we can continue trying to infer morality from existence. There is no obvious utilitarian purpose to existence (it doesn't appear to serve some other purpose). So, the options appear to be, "there is no purpose", "we don't know the purpose" or "existence is its own purpose." There don't appear to be any psychologically useful implications from the first two options, but believing that existence is good for its own sake would point one towards believing that one can find goodness and meaning in absolutely all circumstances. It would also say that working towards survival is a good thing, which one would presumably want for a moral system for living creatures.

    As I have said before, I believe my psychological motive for creating this system was that I wanted to be able to see the good in situations where things were not going my way. It seems suitable for this purpose for me. It is a scaffold for founding morality which requires relatively few unfalsifiable assumptions.

    I am not aware that deism ever "failed" in the intellectual sense. Has anyone ever proven that it's impossible? It is merely not popular. I think the reason is probably that most people would rather believe in a god who is interested in their personal happiness.

    I worked through all this myself, with reference to previous arguments (such as cosmological arguments). However, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that somebody else had previously come up with very similar arguments.

    I am not a very big fan of universalism in general, because it's not possible for two contradictory statements to both be true at the same time.

    I don't believe that the problem of evil is really a problem for a deist. The Christian God asserts that death is bad and that he is actually interested in human flourishing, so the existence of things that seem bad to us is a problem for Christianity. But the existence of things that seem bad to humans is not terribly mysterious if the creator god is not especially interested in our happiness.

    I have actually already explained why a creator god would create a temporal world and then take a day off. As I've explained before, it seems reasonable to believe that mathematics is somehow closely related to God (or else why is math-based science so successful?). But mathematics can describe many situations that don't physically exist. So, if god likes himself, and if he contains an infinity of abstract potential, then it would make sense that he'd want to create a big universe (or possibly an infinite multiverse) in order to tangibly instantiate many different forms that already exist in him in the abstract. Also, if you believe in an omnipotent and omniscient creator god, then you have to believe that he got it right his first try, so it's not mysterious that he didn't need to continue to meddle with creation.

    I've made an argument in a different post that if god is infinite, then it might be the case that he has a limited ability to add to himself. Something like infinity + 1 still equals infinity. If this is the case, then it would make sense that he can only create things which are finite and imperfect. If we were perfect and complete, it might be the case then that we would become identical to god, and would cease to exist separately from him. So, no matter what the circumstances of our lives are, it is likely that it's just not possible for contingent beings like us to exist in a state of perfection. If this is the case, then it might be that god is more pleased by a creation that spontaneously comes into being and approaches perfection (like through the evolutionary process) than one which came into being in its final form (no matter how highly developed that final form might be).
  • Gnomon
    3.8k
    According to cosmological arguments, a first cause is one of the options for explaining existence, which implies something like a creator god. So, this part is at least plausible. Alternatives are an infinite regression of causes, or circular causality.Brendan Golledge

    I suppose you are contrasting an eternal transcendent Creator God with various versions of immanent or more-of-the-same-forever-and-ever-amen (linear-or-circular) physical explanations for Causation. All transcendent options are hypothetical & unprovable, hence philosophical & non-scientific. Therefore, says it makes more sense to him, to simply "substitute existence (laws of nature) . . . . for God". His preferred god-model is based on Spinoza's deus sive natura, which is similar to Deism, except no accounting for a contingent & temporary world. Transcendent Deism is one answer to "who lit the fire" questions.

    Some form of divinity seems to be the original philosophy of inquisitive primitive humans, who imagined what we now call "laws of nature" as-if they were the arbitrary (whimsical) behavior of invisible humanoid beings in the sky : i.e. Nature Gods. As people became more civilized (e.g. Mesopotamia) they began to include in their pantheon of gods some abstracted functions of nature (e.g. Damu = healing & rebirth). Over time, the Hebrews developed an even more extremely spiritualized notion of their tribal god (who, by taboo, cannot be named). Eventually, the Jews abstracted their storm-&-war-god even further to a non-local, singular, eternal, omniscient, and omnipotent ruler of the whole world. This was still a sort of cosmic Nature God, except that it favored one tribe of humans over all others.

    The notion of a partisan deity was always common, but unsurprisingly, for "stiff-necked" Jews, it triggered some enmity with the neighboring Gentiles. And the Christian version of Judaism exacerbated that religious hostility by emphasizing the necessity for voluntary Faith over accidental inheritance, with catastrophic consequences for disbelief. That may be one reason for the emergence of a less eternally-fatal alternative in cosmopolitan but non-soteriological Deism*1.

    By contrast with the personalized primitive pantheons of Mesopotamia, and the inscrutable & un-nameable & timeless & spaceless Yahweh of Israel, in Hellenic Greece Plato & Aristotle advocated some further-abstracted mathematical & scientific concepts, such as First Cause and Prime Mover. You could even describe them as the (intentional or unintentional?) creators or causes or instantiators of what we now call "Natural Laws".

    Yet, in view of the modern Big Bang beginning of space-time and cause-laws, the question remains : what were Cause & Laws doing before the Bang? Any postulated answers to such questions are, as you said, "working off speculation". So, is there any good reason to prefer extending what we now know into eternity, and an intentional entity, over attributing the Cause & Laws of our world to mere happenstance : it is what it is, for no particular reason?

    As you mentioned before, your Deist worldview is intended to provide some foundation, or standard, for a stable universal Morality in a world of conflicting motives and opinions. But, without a valid revelation from the Lawmaker, how can we know what we humans ought to do? Most Deists would say to consult the Book of Nature (science), but moral interpretations tend to vary widely (e.g. homosexuality : natural or perversion?).

    Also, as you said, "it is the people who believed in a creator god who came up with the scientific method". And the early Deists did indeed accept the world itself, as revealed by science, for the embodied intention (design) of G*D*2. Ironically, the natural world has been described as "red in tooth & claw" and its laws of Evolution (i.e. Natural Selection) denounced as resulting in suffering & death of apperceptive beings. Therefore, sentient suffering must be accounted for in order to answer Theodicy*3 questions. Does G*D care that I, or a worm, must suffer the slings & arrows of outrageous fortune?

    Can we then supplement the objective facts of Science, with the subjective reasoning of Philosophy? Would you call that a Deist "religion", or simply a "natural philosophy"? Would an immanent Deity (the evolving Cosmos) suffice for your Deist morality, without speculating beyond the beginning of the space-time world for a super-natural higher authority? :smile:


    PS___ My hypothetical transcendent deity (programmer) is imagined as amoral regarding how humans deal with each other. The ultimate design is for an evolving Cosmos, of which we humans are merely a willful cog of the system. Presumably, developing a workable morality is an essential part of the Game of Life in a real (not ideal) world.


    *1. Deists have had different beliefs about rebirth, with some believing in reincarnation or resurrection.
    ___Google AI overview

    *2. In Deism, the "word of God" is essentially understood as the natural world itself, meaning that God's existence and will are revealed through the observable laws and order of nature, rather than through any specific religious texts or pronouncements; essentially, God created the universe and set it in motion with natural laws, and that is how we can understand His design.
    ___Google AI overview

    *3. In philosophy, the justification for a good God allowing evil to exist, often called a "theodicy" is typically based on the idea that permitting some evil is necessary to enable greater good, such as human free will, moral development, or the potential for deeper appreciation of good, even if it means suffering can occur; essentially arguing that a world with free choice, even if it leads to evil, is better than a world without it where everyone is always good by default.
    ___Google AI overview

    PPS___ Regarding religion and science, here's a quote from a Sherlock Holmes story :
    " What a lovely thing a rose is. There is nothing in which deduction is so necessary as in religion. It can be built up as an exact science by the reasoner. Our highest assurance of the goodness of Providence seems to me to rest in the flowers".
    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0506452/quotes/
  • 180 Proof
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