It makes more sense to me – cogently, parsimoniously, naturalistically – to substitute existence (or laws of nature (à la Laozi or Epicurus, Spinoza or Einstein)) for "God".Yet inGod, in the abstract, exists all else that could be. — Brendan Golledge
I think that is a better version of Christianity, where human beings are able to exist without any repercussions regarding the choices they make in their life and being able to choose whether to acknowledge such a God or not as you say he does not require any covenants.
Your view of God in this respect is similar to mine, but with the added bonus of immortality granted to beings who express his will the best and who are as morally good as it is possible.
However I do not subscribe to the creation myth or garden idea because I cannot infer purpose from god nor any motivation behind his reason for creating this world. It could be that initially god rolled the dice and created the universe where life may emerge due to intrinsic inevitability of the properties of physics, maths and matter such that life’s emergence was inevitable not just on this planet.
This leads to many questions such as his relationship to his creation and creatures within it, as god himself is immortal does is this property also inherited by human beings who wish to attain immortality as well or is it just an exclusive property belonging to god only? If so then we are but the flicker of a candle in the wind compared to god’s eternal existence. If we have no intrinsic purpose to our existence but to enjoy it (and some don’t) then if we die never to be reborn then our creation was meaningless. — kindred
I don't view Deism*1 as a religion, but simply a philosophical worldview that attempts to explain the contingent existence of our physical world, and its intelligent creatures, without resorting to magical thinking, or by putting words in the mouth of an anthropomorphic fascist-father-figure in the sky.Before the beginning, there was God. Nothing was before God, and neither does God depend on anything else. It is difficult to say much about God, because he is before logic and before matter. God has no body, and he exists neither in time nor space. Yet in God, in the abstract, exists all else that could be. — Brendan Golledge
"Before the beginning" = north of the north pole :roll:Before the beginning, there wasGod. — Brendan Golledge
Again, it makes more sense – cogently, parsimoniously, naturalistically – to substitute existence (or laws of nature (à la Laozi or Epicurus, Spinoza or Einstein)) for "God".Nothing was beforeGod, and neither doesGoddepend on anything else.
I briefly discussed in one of my earlier replies that I can't imagine a difference between an unconscious creator god and the laws of physics. They would seem to me to basically be the same thing. So, I wonder if you're taking more offense at the word, "god" than with the idea itself.Again, it makes more sense – cogently, parsimoniously, naturalistically – to substitute existence (or laws of nature (à la Laozi or Epicurus, Spinoza or Einstein)) for "God". — 180 Proof
's trite comparison of a metaphysical a priori concept, Original Cause, with our physical experience of the arbitrary designation of a navigational North Pole on a spherical planet, is completely missing the philosophical principle of how to explain the scientific Big Bang beginning of our space-time universe. The "true" North Pole is a human construct (idea), not a physical place, and the magnetic pole wanders*1. The Cause of our Cosmos is neither a place nor a time."Before the beginning" is not actually an arbitrary phrase. The matter we are familiar with only acts after it's first acted upon. So, it follows that if there was a first cause, it can't be anything at all like the matter we are familiar with. . . . . math might still have been true before the Big Bang. — Brendan Golledge
The analogy of the Big Bang with an Egg or Fetus is a metaphor, not to be taken literally. Yet, I can't agree that the Creator "must be utterly unlike" anything in the Creation. I suppose your God-model is imagined as an immaterial Spirit. But I think the Creation must have something in common with the Creator, in order for us philosophers to even imagine what it's like. The word "like" implies a comparison.. . . disagree with the analogy of creation being like an egg or a fetus. Based on what I discussed immediately above, we have good reason to think that a creator god must be utterly unlike anything that we've ever experienced. — Brendan Golledge
I agree that the pre-space-time Creator of the Cosmos should be more like timeless Logical Mathematics (ratios ; relationships) than like the time-bound entropy-destined material aspects of the world. But if the timeless Creator necessarily existed eternally prior to the creation event we call Big Bang, then it would not be identical to the space-time Creation (Pandeism)*5. Instead, the temporary Effect would exist as a momentary blip within the eternal existence of the Cause. That god-model is known as PanEnDeism*6*7. :halo:the deist creator god fits together more nicely with mathematics than the pandeist god. — Brendan Golledge
arbitrarily & "parsimoniously" limits his god-model to the immanent knowable things of Spinoza's space-time Natural world. But in order to accept that 17th century paradigm, he would have to ignore or deny the evidence of a point-of-beginning for Space-Time. Your god-model, and mine, are more like a meta-physical Idea than a physical Thing. But which is simpler : the Chicken or the Egg ; the Cause or the Effect? Some imagine that God must be infinitely complex, but that's a materialistic notion, not a philosophical principle. If the Creation has evolved sentient creatures, then the pre-conscious Creator of natural laws must have the Potential for Consciousness (ability to know), even though objectless thought might not be identical to our Actual experience of the material world. :cool:I briefly discussed in one of my earlier replies that I can't imagine a difference between an unconscious creator god and the laws of physics. — Brendan Golledge
Do you view yourself as the founder of a religious movement, as opposed to merely the author of a novel religious worldview/manifesto? Due in part to the confusing plethora of other religions, and in some cases, direct resistance to the competition, starting a new religion ain't easy.So, in writing this, I am creating my own religion. — Brendan Golledge
Holiness and Sacredness are expansions on the ancient notion of Taboo, in which certain things (foods, weapons, etc,) were reserved exclusively for a hierarchy of gods & kings & nobles. Another aspect of Taboo was that certain proscribed things --- such a woman's menstruation --- were disgusting & repellent. I mention this because Holiness and Taboo are faith-based non-democratic notions, which eventually lead to a hierarchical priesthood, and a pantheon of saints. Do you envision your "religion" in such terms? Would it involve worship of the universe, or sacred trees? :smile:↪180 Proof
I'm used to thinking of God as being holy. So, if the universe is God, then it would follow that the universe is holy. — Brendan Golledge
Afaik, deism is just 'the god of theism' on its day off (or on vacation), and so, if the latter is a fiction (e.g. ontologically separate – "transcendent" – from existence aka "nonexistent"), then the former must also be fictional. :chin:We wanted to fix what was wrong with Deism, ... by determining why it failed. — Gnomon
According to cosmological arguments, a first cause is one of the options for explaining existence, which implies something like a creator god. So, this part is at least plausible. Alternatives are an infinite regression of causes, or circular causality. — Brendan Golledge
Rabbi Kushner wrote a book on that same subject : When Bad Things Happen to Good People*1. Generally, it advises us to look at the Big Picture --- when we personally experience the badness of life --- in order to see that the world as a whole is evolving as intended by the Creator, and that your personal problems are minor in the overall context. Would a theoretical theodicy make you feel better about your own suffering? :grin:As I have said before, I believe my psychological motive for creating this system was that I wanted to be able to see the good in situations where things were not going my way. — Brendan Golledge
Yes, you hit the nail on the head. When the Deus Project manifesto said it wanted to "fix what's wrong" with Deism, it wasn't casting aspersions on the deity. And it didn't imply that Deism "failed" as a philosophical worldview. It was simply noting that Deism had its "intellectual" heyday in the 18th century, but failed to appeal to the general public as an emotional "opiate"*2, hence failed to qualify as a popular religion.I am not aware that deism ever "failed" in the intellectual sense. Has anyone ever proven that it's impossible? It is merely not popular. I think the reason is probably that most people would rather believe in a god who is interested in their personal happiness. — Brendan Golledge
The 13th century Cosmological Argument, making a distinction between Necessity and Contingency, was scientifically supported by the Big Bang theory. On the space-time side of the Bang everthing real is temporary and dependent on prior causes. But on the infinite-eternal side of the equation, we can reasonably infer that only timeless/ideal essentials, fundamentals, and necessities existed : including Causal Power (energy) and Controling Power (laws). The only viable alternative to a deistic First Cause is the materialistic Multiverse Theory, which is just as un-falsifiable as the God Theory, and must assume, without explanation, that the Potential for Mind/Consciousness predated the Bang.I think the cosmological argument provides a very good proof that SOMETHING exists outside the realm of human understanding. — Brendan Golledge
Astronomers like to assume that the space-time universe may be infinite-eternal, but the observable evidence indicates that our knowable Cosmos*4, is finite . So, we have no way of knowing what exists on the outside of the manifest horizon of our contingent world. Nevertheless, the Big Bang couldn't have happened without a priori creative Potential, including Cause & Laws.if he contains an infinity of abstract potential, — Brendan Golledge
Yes! The Big Bang theory implies that space-time began with high Energy/Law (low entropy)*5 and will eventually fade away to the high Entropy of Heat Death. But in the meantime, our world has evolved from formless Plasma to all the "endless forms most beautiful" that Darwin marveled about*6. Scientists have explained that mystery by postulating some constructive "force" that works in opposition to destructive Entropy. But their inappropriate name for that positive trend in evolution sounds negative*7. So, in my thesis, I coined a new term*8 that I think is more descriptive of an upward evolutionary trend. :grin:So, I think it's fair to say that the existence of entropy implies that the universe in its current form had a beginning. — Brendan Golledge
False.The 13th century Cosmological Argument, making a distinction between Necessity and Contingency, was scientifically supported by the Big Bang theory. — Gnomon
Incorrigible nonsense. :zip:Multiverse Theory[MWI of QM], which is just as un-falsifiable as the GodTheory[mythology]
This idealist (antirealist)-solipsist-creationist (fabulist) assumption is both incoherent and factually incorrect: as aspects of nature, all that we (can) know cannot exhaust, or encompass, the whole of nature. To wit: based on current astrophysics, the observable cosmos is only a finite region of an exponentially larger, unobservable – i.e. we know that light from over the Hubble horizon (13.8 billion light years (re: CMBR) has not had m o r e than 13.8 billion years to reach terrestrial instruments – ergo in-de-finite (possibly infinite) cosmos. Pay attention, Gnomon: the "BB" is as much the "beginning of the universe" as the South Pole is the edge of the Earth. :smirk:knowable Cosmos* is finite
Homosexuality is "interesting" to me, mainly because it is so politically divisive in society. Most human cultures have considered same-sex relations to be a perversion of nature, and of divine intent. Which leads to your question : "how is it possible", given the seeming necessity for male-female intercourse to produce a viable fetus, thereby reproducing the species? Parthenogenesis --- virgin birth --- is another seemingly impossible means of reproduction ; but it happens.So, homosexuality in this mindset is not terribly interesting, because it is not useful for the continued existence of the species. I suppose it is interesting to investigate how it is possible that such an evolutionarily unadaptive trait can continue to exist. — Brendan Golledge
As usual, makes terse & emphatic true/false statements of Belief, with no supporting evidence. Here's some of the scientific/philosophical underwriting for the concurrence of the Cosmological Argument and the Big Bang theory. Which sounds more likely to be "false" : eternal "current state" Entropy (matter) or eternal "prior state" Potential (math)? :zip:The 13th century Cosmological Argument, making a distinction between Necessity and Contingency, was scientifically supported by the Big Bang theory. — Gnomon
False. — 180 Proof
Both Multiverse and Transcendent God Theory are literally non-sense, hence false : in his Immanent Materialism belief system, and his 17th century deus sive natura creed. But most scientists are more open minded. Since all of those notions are non-verifiable, they are non-scientific. But they may be considered either pseudo-science or philosophical postulation, depending on the hubris of your personal worldview. :wink:Multiverse Theory[MWI of QM], which is just as un-falsifiable as the God Theory[mythology] ___Gnomon
Incorrigible nonsense. :zip: — 180 Proof
"Cursory searches" are more often too simplicistic (lazy) and misleading, especially in modern physical sciences, than deliberate study. Given the extent of current astrophysical evidence, your claim doesn't make any sense scientifically, and therefore metaphysically (as categorical generalizations, or (tentative?) synopsis, of the 'absolute presuppositions' of current physical sciences).A cursory search for what the Big Bang is shows that it actually is the beginning of the universe. — Brendan Golledge
Reification fallacy (à la Platonic forms, Aristotlean essences). "Math" concerns abstract objects structures & patterns and only an infinitesmal fraction of them are computationally possible to instantiate in (human) discursive-cognitive practices.... the transcendent exists in the form of mathematics. Math appears to exist independently of matter and time.
@Gnomon :roll:Please explain why do you assume that a so-called (un-knowable, ubiquitously nonevident) "Deity" can be "the uncaused cause of all other causes-effects" and yet also assume that the (know-able, inescapably evident) universe itself cannot be "the uncaused cause of all other causes-effects". — 180 Proof
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