• Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    ↪Arcane Sandwich
    My interpretation is that it is pointing to the inadequacy of spoken language to convey the depth of meaning that is inherent in 'the Way'.
    Wayfarer

    Tao = The Way

    Arguments about it, 'it means this', 'no it doesn't, it means that', and so forth, have already missed the mark.Wayfarer

    Yes, they have.

    The true way or eternal Tao is not a verbal expression or description or anything that can be said.Wayfarer

    Yes, I agree.

    Like I said every time you asked me: there is something you find in Eastern philosophies, 'the Unconditioned'. It's not God, or not like a 'sky-father' figure. But then as soon as we ask 'well what is it then?' then we've missed the mark again.Wayfarer

    Yes, we have. Indeed. Good to see that we're on the same page, you and I. So to speak, of course.
  • Janus
    17.4k
    Yes, they have. (Missed the mark)Arcane Sandwich
    If everything that can be said misses the mark then there is no point discussing it. On the other hand how could you know if the mark has been missed if you don't know what it is?

    The preceding verse has nothing to do with Nature, nor with what is natural. It is speaking about Tao (Greatness).Arcane Sandwich

    Nature = what is natural.
    Tao follows what is natural.
    Tao follows only itself.
    The Nature (Tao) that can be told is not the eternal Nature (Tao).
    Arcane Sandwich

    You contradict yourself or the text or both.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    If everything that can be said misses the mark then there is no point discussing it.Janus

    Are you sure about that? It sounds to me that one can speak "around" it, one can allude to it, indirectly.

    On the other hand how could you know if the mark has been missed if you don't know what it is?Janus

    Because it reveals itself to you, in a non-linguistic way.

    The preceding verse has nothing to do with Nature, nor with what is natural. It is speaking about Tao (Greatness). — Arcane Sandwich


    Nature = what is natural.
    Tao follows what is natural.
    Tao follows only itself.
    The Nature (Tao) that can be told is not the eternal Nature (Tao). — Arcane Sandwich


    You contradict yourself or the text or both.
    Janus

    Because I am attempting to combine two translations of the Tao Te Ching that contradict each other. See:

    Tao follows what is natural.Lao Tzu (Laozi)

    The Tao follows only itself.Translated by Stephen Mitchell, 1988

    Why am I doing such a thing? Because you made that specific request when you said the following:

    If you don't understand the language the text was written in, how do you know that the translator avoids a mistake?Janus

    I am trying to be as charitable as I can towards your intentions, @Janus. Are you trying to be as charitable as you can towards my intentions, yes or no?

    EDIT: Even more explicitly:

    If you don't understand the language the text was written in, how do you know that the translator avoids a mistake? — Janus


    Ok, I will cite another English version of chapter 25, because it is the best that I can do, under these circumstances, which I cannot transcend unless I learn Mandarin (at the very least).
    Arcane Sandwich
  • Janus
    17.4k
    Are you sure about that? It sounds to me that one can speak "around" it, one can allude to it, indirectly.Arcane Sandwich

    So, it's just poetry then? I have no argument with that.

    Because it reveals itself to you, in a non-linguistic way.Arcane Sandwich

    It seems to me that something that can only be apprehended non-linguistically cannot be spoken about except poetically or allusively. Poetry is always a matter of interpretation with no detreminate meaning, so there cannot be any detreminable "missing of the mark".
    Because I am attempting to combine two translations of the Tao Te Ching that contradict each other. See:

    Tao follows what is natural.
    — Lao Tzu (Laozi)

    The Tao follows only itself.
    — Translated by Stephen Mitchell, 1988

    Why am I doing such a thing? Because you made that specific request when you said the following:

    If you don't understand the language the text was written in, how do you know that the translator avoids a mistake?
    Arcane Sandwich

    OK, so the translations contradict one another. How do you know which is correct, or considering what I said just above, how can there be a correct and incorrect at all?

    I am trying to be as charitable as I can towards your intentions, Janus. Are you trying to be as charitable as you can towards my intentions, yes or no?Arcane Sandwich

    I am not concerned with your intentions. I don't know them, I know what you say, and I respond to that with my own questions and ideas and as much on its own terms (that is without distorting it) as I can. Isn't that what we do (or should be doing) here?
  • PoeticUniverse
    1.6k
    I'm not sure if you are referring to the Tao as literally the quantum vacuum or as a metaphor. I think taking it literally is mixing up metaphysics and physics.T Clark

    It's about what the Tao idea turns out to match in physics.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    So, it's just poetry then? I have no argument with that.Janus

    Who says that it's just poetry? It can be science instead. Be cooperative, instead of intentionally trying to cause a disturbance in this Thread. I am the author of the OP and I am formally requesting you to be less disruptive. In other words, I'm giving you a "yellow card", a "warning", if you will.

    It seems to me that something that can only be apprehended non-linguistically cannot be spoken about except poetically or allusively.Janus

    You are wrong, for it can be spoken about in a scientific manner.

    Poetry is always a matter of interpretation with no detreminate meaning, so there cannot be any detreminable "missing of the mark".Janus

    Enough with your poetry-centrism. Things cannot be poetry all the way down.

    OK, so the translations contradict one another. How do you know which is correct, or considering what I said just above, how can there be a correct and incorrect at all?Janus

    That is a very difficult question that you are asking, we all have the same question, and intellectuals have been debating this point for decades, not only in relation to the Tao Te Ching, but in relation to any written text in general.

    I am not concerned with your intentions. I don't know them, I know what you say, and I respond to that with my own questions and ideas and as much on its own terms (that is without distorting it) as I can. Isn't that what we do (or should be doing) here?Janus

    I don't know if that's what we do or should be doing here. Make a case for it, and I'll consider it. Until then, I will simply say that one should be charitable towards the English language, as much as humanly possible. The same goes for every other language. If you disagree, explain why.
  • PoeticUniverse
    1.6k
    What is the source of the poem you included. Is it your own? What can you tell us about it?T Clark

    The first stanza, in italics, is Edward FitzGerald's transmogrification of Omar Khayyam. The rest are my own, as extensions of the idea of The Eternal Saki.
  • PoeticUniverse
    1.6k
    Please explain the following song from the POV of your Theory about the Universe:Arcane Sandwich

    Anything can become of the temporaries formed by the Permanent.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    Please explain the following song from the POV of your Theory about the Universe: — Arcane Sandwich


    Anything can become of the temporaries formed by the Permanent.
    PoeticUniverse

    Here is the Tao that can be told, and it shows the eternal Tao (the Tao that cannot be told)

    Yin_and_Yang_symbol.svg

    What is the source of the poem you included. Is it your own? What can you tell us about it? — T Clark


    The first stanza, in italics, is Edward FitzGerald's transmogrification of Omar Khayyam. The rest are my own, as extensions of the idea of The Eternal Saki.
    PoeticUniverse

    What do you think of Timbuktu?
  • PoeticUniverse
    1.6k
    What do you think of Timbuktu?Arcane Sandwich

    Too hot and dry.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    What do you think of Timbuktu? — Arcane Sandwich


    Too hot and dry.
    PoeticUniverse

    But it has an impressive history.
  • T Clark
    15.2k
    If everything that can be said misses the mark then there is no point discussing it. On the other hand how could you know if the mark has been missed if you don't know what it is?Janus

    The Tao Te Ching is philosophy, metaphysics. What is says is not literally true - as you say, poetry. If it doesn't work for you, that's no surprise. It doesn't work for lots of people. It works for me. When I first read it it grabbed me and pulled me in. In my understanding, many eastern philosophies, including Taoism, are about what goes on inside of us, not external reality. Self-awareness. I will say this - I'm an engineer and a pragmatist and I find the metaphysics of Taoism completely consistent with my understanding of science and reality.

    It seems to me that something that can only be apprehended non-linguistically cannot be spoken about except poetically or allusively. Poetry is always a matter of interpretation with no detreminate meaning, so there cannot be any detreminable "missing of the mark".Janus

    Yes. This is right.

    OK, so the translations contradict one another. How do you know which is correct, or considering what I said just above, how can there be a correct and incorrect at all?Janus

    It's true - the Tao Te Ching is not consistent within itself and there are more inconsistencies because it is thought to have been written by different authors over a long period of time - like the Bible. There are many different English translations which sometimes, often, contradict each other. Here's a link to dozens so you can get an idea of the multiplicity.

    https://terebess.hu/english/tao/_index.html

    I've read four or five of them and parts of many more. All of this together paints an impressionistic picture of what Lao Tzu is trying to show us. The inconsistencies are, as they say, a feature, not a bug, starting with the first verse - The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.

    Are you invoking the phenomenon/ noumenon distinction?Janus

    It's a similar concept - different in detail and context.

    If you don't understand the language the text was written in, how do you know that the translator avoids a mistake?Janus

    You don't know German, Latin, or ancient Greek (I assume) but you can still understand Kant, Thomas Aquinas, and Aristotle.
  • T Clark
    15.2k
    The first stanza, in italics, is Edward FitzGerald's transmogrification of Omar Khayyam. The rest are my own, as extensions of the idea of The Eternal Saki.PoeticUniverse

    Thanks.
  • PoeticUniverse
    1.6k
    Thanks.T Clark

    When You and I behind the Veil are past,
    Oh, but the long, long while the World shall last,
    Which of our Coming and Departure heeds
    As much as Ocean of a pebble-cast.


    The raindrop falls and returns to the sea;
    Dust floats to earth and merges with the lea;
    Lives come and go in time—what’s denoted?
    Nows spark and fly; they’ve no eternity.

    The drop wept for his severance from the sea,
    But the sea smiled, for ‘I am all,’ said he,  
    ‘The Truth is all, nothing exists beside,
    That one point circling apes plurality.’
  • Amity
    5.8k

    Thank you for starting this thread.
    For me, I think it is time to read and reflect again.

    I note that there is a new edition. Downloadable with photographs and script.
    https://terebess.hu/english/tao/gia.html

    The Tao Te Ching
    by Lao Tzu
    Source: The Complete Tao Te Ching
    Translated by Gia-Fu Feng (馮家福 Feng Jia-fu, 1919–1985) and Jane English (1942–) Vintage Books, 1989
    First Vintage Books edition, 1972
    2011 Edition - with over 100 photos

    Twenty-five

    Something mysteriously formed,
    Born before heaven and earth.
    In the silence and the void,
    Standing alone and unchanging,
    Ever present and in motion.
    Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things.
    I do not know its name.
    Call it Tao.
    For lack of a better word, I call it great.

    Being great, it flows.
    It flows far away.
    Having gone far, it returns.

    Therefore, “Tao is great;
    Heaven is great;
    Earth is great;
    The human being is also great.”
    These are the four great powers of the universe,
    And the human being is one of them.

    The human being follows the earth.
    Earth follows heaven.
    Heaven follows the Tao.
    Tao follows what is natural.

    From p50/162 of the pdf. Beautiful. Artistic and poetic.
  • Amity
    5.8k
    About Jane English:

    Jane English, born 1942 in Massachusetts, is a photographer, artist, and author who holds a doctorate in particle physics.

    English received her B.A. in physics from Mount Holyoke College in 1964 and Ph.D. from the University of Wisconsin–Madison for her work in high energy particle physics. She taught courses in Oriental thought and modern physics at Colorado College.[1]

    English collaborated on a translation of the Tao Te Ching of Laozi which she illustrated through photography, in collaboration with her spouse Gia-Fu Feng.
    Wiki - Jane English
  • Amity
    5.8k
    Who says that it's just poetry? It can be science instead. Be cooperative, instead of intentionally trying to cause a disturbance in this Thread. I am the author of the OP and I am formally requesting you to be less disruptive. In other words, I'm giving you a "yellow card", a "warning", if you will.Arcane Sandwich

    I think you misinterpret @Janus's intentions. There is no disruption, here. Simply a questioning spirit.
  • Amity
    5.8k
    Therefore, "Tao is great;
    Heaven is great;
    Earth is great;
    The king is also great."
    These are the four great powers of the universe,
    And the king is one of them.
    — Lao Tzu (Laozi)

    The King is one of them. Who is to say that the King is not the Great Chinggis Khaan?
    Arcane Sandwich

    Who is to say that the King is not instead Haile Selassie, Emperor of Ethiopia, the Second Incarnation of Christ, the Lion of Judah, who will unify all the peoples of Africa and all of the peoples of the African diaspora?Arcane Sandwich

    Jane English:

    Therefore, “Tao is great;
    Heaven is great;
    Earth is great;
    The human being is also great.”
    These are the four great powers of the universe,
    And the human being is one of them.

    The human being follows the earth.
    Earth follows heaven.
    Heaven follows the Tao.
    Tao follows what is natural.
    Amity

    Now Jane English and her long-time editor, Toinette Lippe, have refreshed and revised the translation, so that it more faithfully reflects the Classical Chinese in which it was first written, while taking into account changes in our own language and eliminating any lingering infelicities. [...] Also included is an introduction by the well-known writer and scholar of philosophy and comparative religion, Jacob Needleman.Amazon - Tao Te Ching: Illustrated Edition: With Over 150 Photographs

    You can read a sample. It includes a fascinating Foreword by Toinette Lippe.
  • T Clark
    15.2k

    I've never read the rubaiyat. I should. I've added it to my list.
  • T Clark
    15.2k
    It's about the fact that around 6th-3rd centuries B.C.E. a number of prophets and sages were active, including Pythagoras, Lao Tsu, the Buddha, and others, who set the wheels in motion for what were to become the great cultural formations of India, China and the West.Wayfarer

    I've always wondered about this. I don't think there was much contact between the east and west 2,500 years ago, so why this coincidence? Perhaps I'm wrong about cross-cultural communication back then.
  • T Clark
    15.2k
    what does the following phrase mean: "The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao."Arcane Sandwich

    This is the heart of what Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, and others were trying to show us. The Tao is the primordial, undivided, unnamable reality. They call it "non-being." As I understand it it isn't even a thing. It doesn't exist until it's named and becomes "being." Being consists of the multiplicity of what we deal with on a daily basis. Horses, Danish pastry, electrons, Donald Trump Jr. They call it "the 10,000 things," which I love. That's @Janus's poetry. Not everyone sees it exactly this way.

    The idea of "naming" is central to Taoism and it's something I've wrestled with. Who does the naming? Naming is dividing, making distinctions, embossing the Tao with human concepts. Both the Tao and the 10,000 things are respected, but they are not the same thing. See what I said previously about returning.
  • T Clark
    15.2k
    Who says that it's just poetry? It can be science instead. Be cooperative, instead of intentionally trying to cause a disturbance in this Thread. I am the author of the OP and I am formally requesting you to be less disruptive. In other words, I'm giving you a "yellow card", a "warning", if you will.Arcane Sandwich

    As we've discussed elsewhere, I think it's reasonable for you to work to keep the discussion on track as laid out in the original post. On the other hand, I don't see what @Janus is doing as intentionally disruptive.
  • T Clark
    15.2k
    Who is to say that the King is not instead Haile SelassieArcane Sandwich

    It is, or at least it was. "King" refers to temporal rulers in China, so in Ethiopia and elsewhere, it refers to whoever is in charge there. A lot of the Tao Te Ching is explicitly political.
  • T Clark
    15.2k
    Forgive me for this. I just remembered that I wrote a long discussion of Verse 25 a few years ago for a discussion group I was in. It includes several different translations as well as some commentary by others. This discussion is based on my own understanding of the text and is in no way authoritative. I put it in hide/reveal so people can disregard it if they aren't interested.

    Reveal
    Verse 25

    Stephen Mitchell

    There was something formless and perfect
    before the universe was born.
    It is serene. Empty.
    Solitary. Unchanging.
    Infinite. Eternally present.
    It is the mother of the universe.
    For lack of a better name,
    I call it the Tao.
    It flows through all things,
    inside and outside, and returns
    to the origin of all things.

    The Tao is great.
    The universe is great.
    Earth is great.
    Man is great.
    These are the four great powers.

    Man follows the earth.
    Earth follows the universe.
    The universe follows the Tao.
    The Tao follows only itself.

    Ellen Marie Chen

    There was something nebulous existing (yu wu hun ch’eng),
    Born before heaven and earth.
    Silent, empty,
    Standing alone (tu), altering not (pu kaki),
    Moving cyclically without becoming exhausted (pu tai),
    Which may be called the mother of all under heaven.
    I know not its name,
    I give its alias (tzu), Tao.
    If forced to picture it,
    I say it is “great” (ta).

    Therefore Tao is great,
    Heaven is great,
    Earth is great,
    The king is also great.
    In the realm there are four greats,
    And the king is one of them.
    Humans follow (fa) earth,
    Earth follows heaven,
    Heaven follows Tao,
    Tao follows self-becoming (tzu-jan).

    Ron Hogan

    Something perfect has existed forever,
    even longer than the universe.
    It's a vast, unchanging void.
    There's nothing else like it.
    It goes on forever and never stops.
    Everything else came from it.
    I don't know what else to call it
    So I'll call it Tao.
    What's it like?
    I can tell you this much: it's great.

    Something that great lasts.
    Something that lasts goes a long way.
    And something that goes a long way
    always comes back to the beginning.

    Tao's great.
    Heaven's great.
    Earth's great.
    And someone who's in touch with Tao is great, too.
    Those are the four greatest things in the universe
    and a Master is one of them.

    Someone who's in touch with Tao
    is in touch with the earth.
    The earth is in touch with heaven.
    Heaven's in touch with Tao.
    Tao's in touch with the way things are.

    I like this verse, at least the first stanza. I get a bit lost in the others, especially since some of the translations indicate that the other stanzas directly follow from the first. I don’t see the connection.

    I’ve included Ron Hogan’s interpretation, which I can’t decide if I like. This translation was suggested by ZzzoneiroCosm. It’s much more American and less poetic than any of the other translations. If I had read it first, I don’t know if I would have been attracted to the Tao Te Ching as much as I was.

    I’ve also included all of Lin Yutang’s selections from the Chuang Tzu, which I really like.

    Stanza 1 - Stephen Mitchell’s translation

    There was something formless and perfect
    before the universe was born.
    It is serene. Empty.
    Solitary. Unchanging.
    Infinite. Eternally present.
    It is the mother of the universe.
    For lack of a better name,
    I call it the Tao.
    It flows through all things,
    inside and outside, and returns
    to the origin of all things.

    As I noted, I like this stanza. It feels like a review section before the midterm exam for the verses covered so far. I especially like the discussion of how the Tao got its name. Turns out it was just made up because we couldn’t think of anything else to call it. It’s kind of a nickname. For me that answers the paradox of Verse 1, where Lao Tzu just jumps in without explanation and names the nameless.

    The subject of the cyclic return of the 10,000 things to the Tao is reiterated here. As I’ve noted in earlier posts, I struggled with this idea for a long time. Now, I see it as recognition that, while the Tao is separated into the 10,000 things by the act of naming, the 10,000 things are always returning to the Tao, i.e. that the act of creation didn’t happen 14 billion years ago, it’s always happening. It’s happening now. I think the idea of returning is one of those things that means different things depending on the situation.

    Stanzas 2 and 3 - Stephen Mitchell translation

    The Tao is great.
    The universe is great.
    Earth is great.
    Man is great.
    These are the four great powers.

    Man follows the earth.
    Earth follows the universe.
    The universe follows the Tao.
    The Tao follows only itself.

    These stanzas discuss what I have called a “ladder” in previous posts. There are a lot of different ladders in the Tao Te Ching and related documents. Here are a few examples:

    From Verse 42 - Stephen Mitchell

    The Tao gives birth to One.
    One gives birth to Two.
    Two gives birth to Three.
    Three gives birth to all things.

    From Verse 18 - Stephan Stenud

    When the great Tao is abandoned,
    Benevolence and righteousness arise.
    When wisdom and knowledge appear,
    Great pretense arises.
    When family ties are disturbed,
    Devoted children arise.
    When people are unsettled,
    Loyal ministers arise.

    From “The Great One Gives Birth to the Waters” - a text related to the Tao Te Ching. Very confusing.

    {The Great One} gave birth to Water. Water returned to assist (A) {The Great One}, [and] by means of this the Heavens were completed/manifested. The Heavens returned to assist {The Great One}, [and] by means of this the Earth was completed. The Heavens and Earth [returned to assist each other] [and] by means of this the Spirits and Luminaries were completed. The Spirits and Luminaries returned to assist each other, [and] by means of this Yin and Yang were completed. Yin and Yang returned to assist each other, [and] by means of this the Four Seasons were completed. The Four Seasons returned to assist each other (E), [and] by means of this Cold and Hot (F) were completed. Cold and Hot returned to assist each other, [and] by means of this Wet and Dry (G) were completed. Wet and Dry returned to assist each other, completing the Yearly Cycle (H) and that‘s all….

    In this verse, it seems as if Lao Tzu is working to connect the cosmic and the human. To show where we fit in.

    Man follows the earth.
    Earth follows the universe.
    The universe follows the Tao.
    The Tao follows only itself.

    In some of the translations, instead of “man” it says “the ruler,” which raises the question that comes up often - whether the Tao Te Ching is meant for all of us or just the bosses.

    Humanity, Earth, Heaven, and the Tao are called the four great powers. There is clearly a hierarchy with the Tao at the top.

    Lin Yutang’s commentary

    In this chapter, the working of the eternal principle of Tao and the silent revolutions of the heavenly bodies are seen as a model worthy of the imitation by man. It restates the argument that Tao should not be named, and if it is given a name, it is purely an exigency of human speech. It also states the principle of reversion of all things to their origin, a principle which makes creation and destruction different aspects of the same process.The universe is an orchestrated symphony, where human beings follow the laws of the land in which they live. At a level above this, the Earth follows the laws of astronomy - the rules that govern the motions of heavenly bodies. The cosmos in turn follow the patterns of the Tao at a macroscopic level. Ultimately, the Tao itself follows natural laws, which arise from the Tao process. This underscores the self-sufficiency and self-completeness of the Tao.

    Lin Yutang’s selections from the Chuang Tzu relevant to this verse

    The Chuang Tzu, also called the Zhuangzi, is the second foundational text of Taoism, written a couple of hundred years after the Tao Te Ching.

    25.1. THE MYSTERY OF THE UNIVERSE. Is the sky revolving around? Is the earth remaining still? Are the sun and the moon competing for their places? Who manages them? Who holds them in control? Who has nothing to do and is making these things move? Is it perhaps that there is a mechanism so that the heavenly bodies cannot help themselves? Is it perhaps that they continue to revolve and cannot stop themselves? Clouds become rain, and rain becomes clouds. Who makes them rise and come down? Who has nothing to do and is urging them to do so for his own pleasure? The wind rises from the north; it blows east and west, and there is a steady blow in the stratosphere. Who is sucking and blowing it alternately? Who has nothing to do and is shaking it about like this?

    Chuangtse does not answer the questions directly, but in the following paragraph speaks of these operations of nature in a description of what he calls the heavenly Tse-jan, lit. “self-so,” ”self-formed,” “‘that which is so by Itself.”

    THE IMITATION OF TAO which ends with a quotation from an old sacred song of Yu-yen (Shen-nung')
    .
    ''You listen and cannot hear Its voice, you look and cannot see its form. It fills the whole universe and encompasses the six points of space. You want to listen to it, and yet there is no point of
    Contact. See also the selection 6.i, 'The Silent, Beautiful
    Universe” "The heaven cannot help being high, the earth cannot
    help being wide. The sun and the moon cannot help going around, and all things of the creation cannot help but live and grow. Perhaps this is Tao.See the context in 4.1. "Existing before the heaven and earth, it is not regarded as long ago, being older than the primeval beginnings, it is not regarded as old.'

    25 2 TAO IS NAMED "GREAT.' THE ETERNAL CYCLES.

    "Can you then just call it Tao?” asked Little Knowledge."No, replied Taikung Tiao. 'We speak of The myriad things' of the creation, although we know that there are more than a myriad of them. Because the number is so great, we just call it 'myriad.' The heaven and earth are the great in form. The yin and yang are the great in force. Tao is great in both. We merely give it the name "Great” because of its greatness. But with a given name,
    it should not be compared with the names for other things. One cannot go on and argue that Tao is something by that name, as we say that dogs and horses are animals by those names. For that would be far off the mark.” 'Within the four points of the compass and above and how do the myriad things take their rise?” asked Little Knowledge. 'The yin and the yang principles act on one another, reflect one another and keep one another in place. The four seasons follow one another in succession, interrelated in their coming and going. Hence arise likes and
    dislikes, and choices and preferences.

    The male and the female mate and the race is continued. Peace and chaos follow one another; fortune breeds misfortune and vice versa. The slow and the quick rub against each other and things are formed and disperse. These are some of the things that we can say about material things and some of the subtle pnnciples that we can put down. All order is bom of a principle, and all rise and decay are interrelated. When something reaches a limit, then it reverses its direction; when the end is reached, the beginning begins. This is all that is evidenced by the material world, all that we know and all that we can say. And after all, our knowledge does not extend beyond the material universe. He who observes the working of Tao does not try to follow a thing to its very end, nor trace it to its very source. There all discussion ends.' (7:4)

    25.3. COMPIETE, ENTIRE AND ALL. The three. Complete, Entire and All differ in name, but are the same in reality. They all indicate the One. Once they roamed about together in the Palace of Nowhere. Did they get together to discuss things and never come to an end? Did they go about doing nothing together, and remain mellow and quiet, and indifferent and free? Did they
    get along well and spend their idle hours together? Free and unfettered is my mind, it reaches out and does not know where it reaches, it returns and does not know where it stops. My mind goes back and forth and does not know where it all ends. It loiters in the sphere of the Great Void, where the great Sage enters and does not know where it leads to. To realize that
    matter is matter is to reach the infinite with matter. Where matter is finite, it is the limitations of finite matter. The limit of the limitless is the limitlessness of the limited. To take the phenomena of rise and fall, growth and decay, it does not regard rise and fall as rise and fall, and it does not regard growth and decay as growth and decay. It does not regard beginning and
    end as beginning and end. It does not regard formation and dispersion as formation and dispersion. (6:3)

    Derek Lin’s commentary

    There is something that is formless, shapeless and non-physical, and yet also complete and perfect. Whatever it is, this "thing" existed before the universe came into being. How silent, tranquil and still! How ethereal, empty and boundless! It is completely independent and self-sufficient. Its nature is eternal and unchanging. Its functions circulate within every level of existence without ever stopping. Because it is the source of all creation, we can consider it to be the mother of all things. I do not know its name; I do not even know that it has a name. In order to identify it, I reluctantly call it the arbitrary name "Tao." If I were forced to describe it, I would have to say it is great beyond compare. Being great, it is always in a state of transition. Being perpetually in motion, it seems to recede far away from us. Being far away, it returns again to us. This great circle is the nature of Tao.

    Therefore, the Tao is great. Heaven and Earth, being manifestations of the Tao, are also great. A leader who manifests the Tao, and can serve as an example for the people, is also great. He or she occupies one of the four aspects of greatness.
  • Wayfarer
    25.3k
    It’s not so much coincidence as parallel development. Have a browse of the Wikipedia entry on it https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_Age
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    I'm looking at these different translations (Thank You Sincerely for taking the time and energy to hunt them down and share them here).

    It is like you said: We cannot fully understand the True Tao, only catch glimpses of it, with the help of the many different translations.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    Thank you very much for that useful reference.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    Thank you very much for your kind words, friend, and for your helpful contributions to this Thread.
  • T Clark
    15.2k
    It’s not so much coincidence as parallel development.Wayfarer

    Thanks. I probably used a confusing word. By "coincidence" I meant that the events described happened at the same time, not that it was (necessarily) a matter of chance. The article indicates it doesn't appear there was any intellectual or cultural contact between east and west during this period, which goes back to my original question.
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