Ok, 155 years ago.

If I may chime in more, I hold that Robert E. Lee was a good and honorable man. Having learned quite a bit about his personal life and his moral convictions, I find it sad that he's viewed so negatively now. Even stranger when most of the reunified country admired him up until his death, and many didn't view him as a traitor.

Ok, 155 years ago. — Cavacava

Bruv....

So, are you in favor of removal of Robert E Lee's statue or are you suggesting that it be archived in some manner? — Cavacava

A witch hunt to try to remove any historical sign of oppression and injustice is not the path to healing, better relations between diverse groups, and a more just society.

For one thing, pre-history, history and their relics/artifacts are not as cut and dried as ideologues would have us believe. Consider what Morris Berman says as reported here:

“The treatment of the South by the North,” Berman says, “was the template for the way the United States would come to treat any nation it regarded as an enemy: not merely a scorched earth policy, but also a ‘scorched soul’ policy” that it would use in Hawaii, the Philippines, Cuba, Japan, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, and anywhere else it could achieve it..."

Maybe to some people a Robert E. Lee statue symbolizes slavery, racism, and centuries of oppression. Maybe to other people it symbolizes resistance to an evil empire that destroys societies and cultures wherever it goes. Fighting over removing or leaving that statue divides us and distracts us from the systemic sources of the pain of both groups, and it won't make the events of the past or their consequences go away.

I don't dispute that he made his choice, but it was the wrong choice. It was a choice based on an immoral economic system. To now treat him as a symbol, begs the question.

Even stranger when most of the reunified country admired him up until his death, and many didn't view him as a traitor. — Buxtebuddha

He was anti-slavery ironically. But a monument to him is just blatantly fucked up.

It's not up to me, the town planned to remove the statue....these thugs came in and created holy hell. I don't see any statues of Hitler up in Germany.

I don't dispute that he made his choice, but it was the wrong choice. It was a choice based on an immoral economic system. To now treat him as a symbol, begs the question. — Cavacava

I'm not convinced of this. My current view is that he was faced with two evils that he had to choose between, and I don't necessarily blame him for picking one evil over the other. And I think it's childish to write off Lee's decision merely because slavery was and is immoral, fundamentally. The American Civil War (not Revolutionary War...) was an immensely complicated period in history, so passing quick judgement over people like you have done in this thread is pretty intellectually vacuous to me.

He was anti-slavery ironically. But a monument to him is just blatantly fucked up. — Mongrel

Why's it fucked up? We celebrate Tecumseh Sherman with dozens of statues across the country, yet I don't see anyone up in arms about that. If this debate is only about what the statue represents, then we should stop judging the person, because Lee is not the devil.

It's not up to me, the town planned to remove the statue....these thugs came in and created holy hell. I don't see any statues of Hitler up in Germany. — Cavacava

Are you really comparing Robert E. Lee to Hitler?

Statues are symbols, read in the context to which I replied.

Then a statue of Tecumseh Sherman represents pillage and rape, and so ought to be torn down. The American flag is thought by some to be a symbol of racial oppression, and so American flags ought to be burned. The new World Trade Center building in New York can be seen as a symbol of capitalist exploitation, thus it should be destroyed by having planes flown into it.

Do you see how flimsy your argument is, now?

Why's it fucked up? We celebrate Tecumseh Sherman with dozens of statues across the country, yet I don't see anyone up in arms about that. If this debate is only about what the statue represents, then we should stop judging the person, because Lee is not the devil. — Buxtebuddha

My beef is with what it represents.

A witch hunt to try to remove any historical sign of oppression and injustice is not the path to healing, better relations between diverse groups, and a more just society.

Germany does not allow statues of Hitler. They think it will not help them heal. They will not forget the what happened.

The town decided to have the statue removed. they live there, its their decision and I think it is the right one!

Put it in a swamp.

My beef is what it represents. — Mongrel

And I suppose my beef would be with racists who have attempted to make an idol out of a man who didn't share the same views. I also have beef with those who think that a statue of him means that Lee was in fact on the same level as the fat racist bums thinking he's on their side.

Yea. Have you ever been to Arlington Cemetery? I think that was his land prior to the war.

Germany does not allow statues of Hitler. They think it will not help them heal. — Cavacava

You need to prove to me that Hitler is a comparable example with regard to Lee. Please do so.

Also, a statue of Robert E. Lee being thought of as a hate symbol only shows the ignorance and stupidity of the people seeking "healing". The inflated race issues in the US have nothing to do with a statue of Robert E. Lee, but with the ingrained, willful ignorance of those who do not understand history or how history unfolds by the day.

Yea. Have you ever been to Arlington Cemetery? I think that was his land prior to the war. — Mongrel

Yes I have, twice. Both times were humbling experiences.

But why do you ask? If we're tearing down a statue of Robert E. Lee for foolishly being considered a symbol of slavery, oppression, and hate, then perhaps we should tear this down, too?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_Memorial_(Arlington_National_Cemetery)

Sorry, not teaching tonight.

It's not up to me, the town planned to remove the statue....these thugs came in and created holy hell. I don't see any statues of Hitler up in Germany. — Cavacava

Again, I can't go along with your idea--as expressed in your original post in this thread--that removing symbols from the environment is the path to healing and justice.

Symbols are arbitrary and therefore can mean different things to different people. What looks like a statue of a champion of racism and bigotry to you might look light a statue of a heroic freedom fighter to someone else.

If you have got solid scientific evidence that removing symbols from the environment has the powerful effects that you claim it has, then please provide it.

I suspect that what really happens is that over time symbols gradually lose any powerful meaning and are quietly removed from the environment as part of housekeeping, not as part of revolutionary change.

Probably. Imagine you're black. You're walking around and you stop to notice a statue of Lee. You think, "Oh that's great. Let's celebrate the guy who led the Confederate army." If you don't have any facets of your being that would allow you feel the full depths of how much that sucks... just take my word for it. It sucks.

Bruv.... — Buxtebuddha

Everyone knows that two years after the death of Schopenhauer, the US gained its independence.

Even if you're black, your point doesn't really address my argument I don't think. I'm not denying that people will be offended by something, I'm denying whether there ought to be feelings of offense in the first place. With regard to a statue of Robert E. Lee, I don't think someone should fall into a deep depression. And if you'd tear down the memorial I linked, then everything should be torn down because there will always be someone that will find x, y, z thing offensive. But, I don't think that's reasonable, which is why tearing down statues merely because someone is offended is silly. The root of the offense is what is most important.

Cavacava — Cavacava

To be clear, I have been talking about removing symbols being a tactic employed by parties from outside the communities where the symbols are located.

A local decision by local people to remove a symbol because they need to heal, because the things it is taken to represent go against their values, etc. is appropriate.

Probably. Imagine you're black. You're walking around and you stop to notice a statue of Lee. You think, "Oh that's great. Let's celebrate the guy who led the Confederate army." If you don't have any facets of your being that would allow you feel the full depths of how much that sucks... just take my word for it. It sucks. — Mongrel

This is facile reasoning. You're just assuming that the statue represents the Confederacy, slavery, racism, and other "bad stuff." In fact, it honors a man who was himself quite honorable, despite his flaws. There would be other, more suitable structures to erect if one wished to "celebrate the Confederacy."

My little story was just supposed to help you understand why it's offensive. He fought for slavery. Memorializing him is offensive. It just is.

I want to know how many people who are calling for Lee's statue to be torn down have read a full length biography of the man. I haven't, but precisely because I haven't, I'm not calling for his statue to be removed. Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent.

In fact, it honors a man who was himself quite honorable, despite his flaws. — Thorongil

Unfortunately his decision to fight for the south defines him. Whatever honor he may be due will have to be offered in private.

He fought for slavery — Mongrel

This is enormously misleading and really just a slur. He fought for the state of Virginia based on certain political principles.

He fought for slavery. — Mongrel

As I told Cavacacvaca, it's not that simple. Not every Confederate soldier fought for slavery, just as not every German soldier during WWII fought for the extermination of 6+million Jews. If you disagree, and do think that the German soldiers were all Nazis, were all racists and Aryan supremacists, and were fighting for genocide, explain yourself.

I'm familiar with how he made his decision. He fought for the south and therefore he fought for slavery. This isn't controversial.

Lee knew exactly what he was doing. If you want to honor him, build a statue for him in your backyard. Try concrete and beer bottles. That would be attractive.