This isn't controversial. — Mongrel

Except it is. Boiling down Lee and the Confederacy to a single word, "slavery," is unhistorical, unfair, and extremely lazy.

Lee knew exactly what he was doing. If you want to honor him, build a statue for him in your backyard. Try concrete and beer bottles. That would be attractive. — Mongrel

Nice dodge, or should I say, "doge."

I'm pretty familiar with the topic. The war was over slavery.

Lee knew exactly what he was doing. If you want to honor him, build a statue for him in your backyard. Try concrete and beer bottles. That would be attractive. — Mongrel

You're not addressing my post at all, why?

I'm pretty familiar with the topic. The war was over slavery. — Mongrel

Get more familiar.

Get more familiar. — Buxtebuddha

(Y)

Um... I guess partly because I'm having difficulty believing you really don't see that a statue to Lee is offensive.

But if you aren't just kidding around... that's helpful to me. I've been seeing a lot of sexism lately. Maybe the people doing it really don't understand why it's offensive and ugly. I guess that's possible.

Get more familiar. — Buxtebuddha

Nah... My Civil War phase is long passed.

Um... I guess partly because I'm having difficulty believing you really don't see that a statue to Lee is offensive.

But if you aren't just kidding around... that's helpful to me. I've been seeing a lot of sexism lately. Maybe the people doing it really don't understand why it's offensive and ugly. I guess that's possible. — Mongrel

Still not addressing my points.

I'm going to bed, perhaps in the morning you'll be less in shock and more able to have an argument with me, (Y)

I'm going to bed — Buxtebuddha

Me too. It's been real.

I would have figured that the removal - or not - of a statue ought to have been a relative non-issue regardless of the historical points either way. As if anyone gives two hoots about statues in 2017. In any case all the more reason to remove it now - whatever it's 'merits', in the wake of the Charlotteville thuggery, it should be removed precisely because it has now come to stand for exactly the hate expressed by those lowlifes - whether or not it 'really, historically' does or not.

If the argument over removal centres around about whether the statue is offensive or not, there's no way to come to any conclusions. It's neither offensive nor inoffensive in itself, it only either offends or doesn't offend, and then it becomes a matter of weighting in terms of numbers, degree, proximity or whatever other variables are relevant. It's not a no-brainer either way as a statue of Hitler would be (although its prospects aren't helped by its most vocal (and violent) supporters being white supremacists as @StreetlightX points out). We've got a similar problem in Northern Ireland over flags and other cultural emblems. It's not something you should just take a hammer to without serious thought and widespread consultation.

The Civil War was the bloodiest war in US history.

“The traditional estimate has become iconic,” historian J. David Hacker said. “It’s been quoted for the last hundred years or more. If you go with that total for a minute—620,000—the number of men dying in the Civil War is more than in all other American wars from the American Revolution through the Korean War combined. And consider that the American population in 1860 was about 31 million people, about one-tenth the size it is today. If the war were fought today, the number of deaths would total 6.2 million.”

Robert E Lee who is often thought of as a brilliant tactician made one significant tactical error, he joined the wrong side. (The South after the War generated a myth, which stuck. It was that the Rebel soldiers were fighting for their home, and not an economic system which relied on slavery...the "Lost Cause", which is still bandied about)

Lee's character is part of the historic myth.

He was a slave owner and wrote the following is from a letter (which is ofter misquoted) he wrote in 1856.

I think it however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence. Their emancipation will sooner result from the mild & melting influence of Christianity, than the storms & tempests of fiery Controversy.

So slavery was bad for white people and good for black people, only God can change that.

The following from the Atlantic Magizine June 4th, 2017.

Lee’s cruelty as a slavemaster was not confined to physical punishment. In Reading the Man, the historian Elizabeth Brown Pryor’s portrait of Lee through his writings, Pryor writes that “Lee ruptured the Washington and Custis tradition of respecting slave families,” by hiring them off to other plantations, and that “by 1860 he had broken up every family but one on the estate, some of whom had been together since Mount Vernon days.” The separation of slave families was one of the most unfathomably devastating aspects of slavery, and Pryor wrote that Lee’s slaves regarded him as “the worst man I ever see.”

It is hardly a wonder that cities such as Charlottesville do not wish to be associated with Robert E Lee, his statue or anything else that has to do with him.

Tolerance towards intolerance. It could be a statue of Adolf Hitler, and I would still be against its removal even though I'm leftist myself.

Slavery or killing people is wrong. Thinking they're ok is also wrong. What about thinking that having that opinion is not wrong? What about thinking that is not wrong? Where do we draw the line?

This post is your most compelling argument against keeping the statue. The quote from Lee's letter is a good display of the justifying reasoning at least some pro slavery people strained to produce.

Lee was right to acknowledge the evil slavery was to white people, wrong to compare the suffering. For white people, the evil was a self-inflicted moral wound; for slaves, the wrong was an externally imposed moral, physical and emotional wound renewed daily.

Per and , the statue's service as a lightning rod will likely speed it's change of address.

Perhaps we should have a 'world park' where the statues of former glories of various regimes could keep each other uncomfortable company: Stalin, Hitler, Lee, Calhoun, Idi Amin, bad popes, tsarist tyrants, Saudi kings, ISIS caliphs, Mexican drug cartel thugs, backward regressive jerks like Trump, record-breaking crooks, et al. It should be located somewhere quite unpleasant: among multiple petrochemical refineries on the gulf coast of Texas, overlooking a sewage lagoon, near the ends of the landing/takeoff runways at Heathrow, permanently ruined forest land in the tropics, mosquito ridden swamps...

She did address your points. — Πετροκότσυφας

No, she didn't.

It boils down to her opinion that the war was over slavery and someone who consciously and willingly fought for the south — Πετροκότσυφας

Yes, an opinion, which she hasn't backed up.

that is to say, unlike a German soldier who was forced to fight for his nazi regime and was too weak to commit suicide — Πετροκότσυφας

What the fuck??

You just disagree with her, but you haven't provided any more evidence as to why she's wrong than she's provided evidence as to why she's right. You just stated your different opinions and then started fooling around with each other. — Πετροκότσυφας

No, sorry, I've provided an argument which she hasn't addressed point by point.

The Civil War — Cavacava

Hey, you got the right war this morning!

Robert E Lee who is often thought of as a brilliant tactician made one significant tactical error, he joined the wrong side. — Cavacava

Tactical or moral error?

It was that the Rebel soldiers were fighting for their home, and not an economic system which relied on slavery...the "Lost Cause", which is still bandied about) — Cavacava

It's true that Confederates fought for their homes. There's nothing mythical about it.

Lee's character is part of the historic myth. — Cavacava

This supposed myth would be a false attribution, which wouldn't represent the man himself.

He was a slave owner — Cavacava

As were half of the founding fathers. Are you going to say that they were rebels against the British Empire and fought for the wrong side, hmm?

wrote the following is from a letter (which is ofter misquoted) he wrote in 1856. — Cavacava

If you say that the following letter is misquoted and you don't even bother to cite where you get the "properly" quoted letter from it's hard for me to take you seriously.

So slavery was bad for white people and good for black people, — Cavacava

Aaaaaaaaaaand he didn't say that at all. Taken out of context, firstly, he nevertheless writes that for both the whites and the blacks, slavery is evil. Being a greater evil for either of them doesn't make it good. Also, he, in the quote you provide, explicitely suggests that it will be abolished. And if you read more of Lee, you would find that he is in favor of the abolition of slavery, but only in the right way. What that right way looks like? Certainly not what many in the North wanted, which would have solved nothing and only spiraled the Southern economy into shambles.

The following from the Atlantic Magizine June 4th, 2017. — Cavacava

A magazine, >:O

And of course it tiredly brings up familial separation as the only dig on Lee's character, without even discussing why families were often separated in the first place.

It is hardly a wonder that cities such as Charlottesville do not wish to be associated with Robert E Lee, his statue or anything else that has to do with him. — Cavacava

Sure, if people aren't properly educating themselves and take the truth to come from magazines.

I've recently read this book, which has been a great read. It certainly puts the Southern dilemma into a cogent perspective. http://www.ugapress.org/index.php/books/pharsalia

That isn't with Agustino! :’( — Buxtebuddha

This is an example of how it works, actually. Agustino is sexist. If he had his way, people like me would be disenfranchised and peripheralized. The people who moderate this forum know that, but they don't care. Every time I see his posts, it just sinks in deeper and deeper with me: the moderators of this forum are just as sexist as he is. They have to be. Why else would they leave his nasty comments up?

Same thing with the statue of Lee. The message it sends to both whites and blacks is counter to what We the People have declared we are and will be.

But as I mentioned to you in PM.. if you make it about personality, you're right. Humanity is a bunch of flawed rascals.

Assertions are not arguments. — Πετροκότσυφας

Indeed. So where are your arguments?

This is an example of how it works, actually. Agustino is sexist. If he had his way, people like me would be disenfranchised and peripheralized. The people who moderate this forum know that, but they don't care. Every time I see his posts, it just sinks in deeper and deeper with me: the moderators of this forum are just as sexist as he is. They have to be. Why else would they leave his nasty comments up? — Mongrel

I don't recall ever reading anything blatantly sexist from Agustino. And most of the mods dislike Agustino I think, so I'm unsure why you think they're on his side?

Same thing with the statue of Lee. The message it sends to both whites and blacks is counter to what We the People have declared we are and will be. — Mongrel

So what We the People stand for is tearing down things that we are offended by and don't like. mmk. Reminds me of ISIS, actually...

It's just one and it's in your posts, where I looked for an argument but I found none. If you want me, I can quote them. — Πετροκότσυφας

And take my posts out of context? No, I think not. I don't think you have anything productive to say, so I'm unsure why you're even responding to me.

The Atlantic Magazine was established in 1857, it is a well regarded moderate publication. The letter and information I referenced were taken from it.

The Lost Cause myth based on the work of historian'David Blight writes in his 2001 book Race and Reunion,

Shortly after the war, Blight writes, former Confederate Gen. Jubal Early gained control of the Southern Historical Society and used it to "launch a propaganda assault on popular history and memory." Later groups like the United Confederate Veterans and the United Daughters of the Confederacy worked to "control historical interpretation of the Civil War." In this interpretation, popularly known as "Lost Cause" mythology, the Confederacy was fighting for some vague conception of liberty, not the right to own slaves; its soldiers were unparalleled warriors defending their homeland who were only defeated because of the Union's structural advantages; and the postwar subjugation of black Americans was a necessary response to lawlessness.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/adamserwer/why-were-finally-taking-down-confederate-flags?utm_term=.cck3zzZk#.ajwpddVZ

Lee said what I quoted ....here is the letter read it for yourself. http://fair-use.org/robert-e-lee/letter-to-his-wife-on-slavery.

And of course it tiredly brings up familial separation as the only dig on Lee's character, without even discussing why families were often separated in the first place.

The forced separation of families was tragic. You can't white wash the calamity of slavery with false truths, that was tried and it failed.

Put the statue in a swamp.

So what We the People stand for is tearing down things that we are offended by — Buxtebuddha

No, Americans go overboard celebrating the offensive. That's actually partly why we like Trump, I think.

"...our forefathers founded upon this continent a new nation conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal."

Lee put himself on the wrong side of history.

The Lost Cause myth based on the work of historian'David Blight writes in his 2001 book Race and Reunion, — Cavacava

I'm not a fan of Blight. He has always ignored the fundamental problems that emancipating the slaves all in one fell swoop had on Southern society, and would have had if it was done before any Civil war, as if freedom from being labeled a "slave" made every African American life infinitely better, more economically secure, and more socially accepted. If there is a myth to be understood here it is the abolition of slavery changed very little for African Americans. They worked the same fields as before, for the same plantation owners as before, lived in the same, shoddy housing as before, and made so little money that moving on and out of their situation remained as unlikely as when they were slaves making no money at all. Blight also conveniently ignores the immediate need for labor in the postwar Southern economy which had lost significant numbers of male laborers, was in widespread bankruptcy, and didn't have the capital to function as Northern agribusiness did.

buzzfeed — Cavacava

:’(

The forced separation of families was tragic. You can't white wash the calamity of slavery with false truths, that was tried and it failed. — Cavacava

I don't disagree that it was tragic, nor am I white-washing (how potentially racist of you, lol) the issue.

"...our forefathers founded upon this continent a new nation conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal." — Mongrel

When this was written men only included white landowners.

Lee put himself on the wrong side of history. — Mongrel

I don't feel the need to judge his moral fiber. He's merely on one side of history, and that's all.

When this was written men only included white landowners. — Buxtebuddha

I was quoting the Gettysburg Address, Popeye.

I don't feel the need to judge his moral fiber. He's merely on one side of history, and that's all. — Buxtebuddha

That's cool. You shouldn't have a problem with the removal of the statue, then.

I was quoting the Gettysburg Address, Popeye. — Mongrel

I know. When that was written men only included white landowners, lol.

That's cool. You shouldn't have a problem with the removal of the statue, then. — Mongrel

It's there so it stays. There's no good reason to remove it.

What the fuck?? — Buxtebuddha

What what? I'm failing to see your point here, I thought the part you quoted here was rather cleverly pointed out. Is the "what the fuck" an amazed or shocked kind?

I was shocked that he suggested that Germans were weak for not committing suicide instead of going into the military, :-}

Indeed, quite radical. I like that.