Which is in line with the domestic political policy, particularly via DOGE. The policy is not one of reform, it's one of revolution. And it's possible the people who provide the philosophical underpinnings of this revolution (who do not include Trump himself) do not actually envision rebuilding any of the things that are being torn apart. — Echarmion

Since Trump basically is incapable of getting laws through, he just goes with executive orders. Just ask yourself: what legislation did he get through last time? The tax cuts were basically a thing done by the GOP with Trump giving only the signature. So he will go with executive orders and with DOGE, which has absolutely no legal basis. And Elon knows this. Hence the extreme hurry with the revolution... as the case of firing those responsible of nuclear weapons showed. Or that when the USAID assistance to Mozambique was to a place there called "Gaza", then we got this ludicrous idea of condoms being sent to Hamas. But hey, it's a great tweet and Trumpist will share it!

It all comes down to seeing the US government itself as the enemy of the American people. Nothing else explains this better. Anarcho-libertarianism at it's worst. Or anarcho-libertarianism as the figleaf for a naked power grab. And notice just how many nowdays refer to the richers people as "oligarchs" in the US. Actually that was earlier not so popular.

And when nobody will stop him and the Congress won't raise a finger when obviously it's position is severely undermined, Trump will continue. Today you have a Congress of pundits fearful of Trump's retaliation, while Democrats are totally ignored. That's what you get with decades of gerrymandering.

Let's think about this from another angle. So you've been with someone for many decades and find that actually, you want some space, need to go alone for a while and be on your own. Now what do you call it? I guess the term usually used would be 'brake up'. Fine, these things happen. Yet, do you really think that it won't have an effect on your relationship with this someone? Everything will be just fine and dandy like this. Or if you would need this someone, she or he will be there to continue as if nothing happened. — ssu

Sorry about the break up. I hope the US and Europe can still be friends.

Anyway, in the event that a broader scale war in the Middle East does break out I would prefer not to have Russia as a vehement enemy. I would prefer that the US has a dialogue with them; a rapport as opposed to just trading insults and giving sanctions which Biden did.

The EU has a combined GDP of $22bn and Russia has around $4bn so I don't see why the countries of Europe can't band together to deter Russia.

Sorry about the break up. I hope the US and Europe can still be friends. — BitconnectCarlos

Me too, but this is the problem with populist foreign policy. I really would hope that this is just one low point between Europe and the US and things can get better. Sorry, if I'm too pessimistic.

Populism already starts with a juxtaposition of us against them, namely the "real people" against the "rich elite". That can easily be turned into prejudice, fear and hatred about foreigners.

Likely the door will be kept open, but unfortunately it does seem as the damage already has been done. The Europeans now know they cannot count on Trump being an ally.

Furthermore, do notice that the reason for European integration in the first place was WW1 and WW2 and the millions of dead Europeans from those two World Wars. Not just an idea of economic growth and trade agreements for the elites. Yes, unfortunately the integration process has been organized by bureaucrats in Brussells, but that doesn't refute the basic reasons for the integration process. Here if someone questions the territorial sovereignty of a nation state is like opening the Pandora's box. You will have in no time people hostile to each other. And Russia has gone over that border. I'm now in my summer place about 20 or so kilometers from the borders and it's totally empty with nothing moving over the border. That hit extremely hard this border community, but that doesn't matter at all as the stakes are far higher than any economic benefit there would be from trade.

The EU has a combined GDP of $22bn and Russia has around $4bn so I don't see why the countries of Europe can't band together to deter Russia. — BitconnectCarlos

Yes, but notice the real danger here. Once Europe does indeed get to the defense spending levels of 5% and that happens in a new institution outside NATO, what does that look like?

Let's just remember that the US and UK were allies during WW2. Still, the US had War plan Red in case of a war in the interwar years until as late as 1939. Quite similar in seriousness to the famous "War plan Orange".

That happens when two large countries aren't allies.

The EU has a combined GDP of $22bn and Russia has around $4bn so I don't see why the countries of Europe can't band together to deter Russia. — BitconnectCarlos

1. Aggregating GDP of EU countries doesn't make much sense if one overlooks the deep divisions over security issues among European countries, especially as perceived by a spoiled and old populace ("people want peace" not justice, not freedom, not prosperity, "people do not want immigration or the EU and euro" traditionalist and ethnically pure nation states waaaaaaaaay better than technological advanced big sovra-national markets and powers).
It would be different if Europe had its own Putin who centralized federal power, wrecked all forms of national independence by destroying and butchering civilians, murdering and imprisoning reluctant economic, financial, industrial elites, independant press journalists and political activists, who could send Italians, Germans, French, Netherlands, Hungarians, Poles as cannon fodder or criminals or mercenaries and threat nuclear wars to establish red-lines. It's not primarily matter of means but of unity over long term goals. This is a PRO-RUSSIAN RUSSIAN ANALYST that makes it clear this point and which Europeans should veeeeeery carefully listen to:
Since the military conflict in Ukraine is not an all out war, the loser will not be the side who physically runs out of strength, but rather the one who loses the will to fight sooner. What is important here is a clear vision of victory and a clear strategy for achieving it.
Russia initially had problems with this: The start came as a shock to everyone and just as suddenly turned into a protracted military conflict with a series of humiliating defeats. [1]
Russian society was able to withstand the blow last year and – albeit not immediately, only towards the end of the year – pulled itself together and prepared for a long and hard struggle. The conception of our victory is clear: We still need the demilitarization of Ukraine (a radical reduction of its army), neutral status for Kiev (and a mechanism to control it) and the recognition of some form of territorial changes. The latter, by the way, will be the most difficult legally; here – for the sake of international legitimacy – Jesuitical forms such as a 99-year lease are possible. But we are getting ahead of ourselves, on this point.
Although this concept of victory has not been articulated, it is intuitively clear; the actions of the authorities at all levels do not contradict it; and society, although not very happy (only people who are not completely healthy enjoy armed conflicts), has rallied and is ready, if not to participate directly, then to support or at least tolerate it. All this will sooner or later produce results at the front – IF THE ENEMY DOES NOT RESPOND WITH THE SAME UNITY.
(source: https://eng.globalaffairs.ru/articles/counteroffensive-is-failing/)

[1] Who remembers those idiots, pardon I meant the maximum experts on economy, military, propaganda, morality, geopolitical realism, in this thread who were spinning the pro-Russian "feint theory" raise your hands!

2. The US is not compelled to rise a fourth competitor power in the Eurasian continent as much as it is to keep competitor powers divided, which is not that difficult since their default divisions are even bigger than the ones dividing European countries. So Europeans are coerced into becoming SERVILE AS THEY WERE NEVER BEFORE to the US by Trump administration [2]: US security as a service. Europe MUST NOT build its own military-industrial complex and military for its security and perpetually pay to sustain and grow American defence industry and business all around the world (American imperialism 2.0), and no more whining. Otherwise they have to remain divided economically, politically and military, and fearful of Russia. On the other side, Russia is now weaker than it was at the beginning of the war and depleted enough of its military/naval/political assets, and Putin (being so nostalgic of the Soviet era) is so wet for Trump that it could turn into US bitch anytime now and sell it as "strategic victory" (well, to be fair, at this point this was the best they could hope for). I guess in this chess board also Israel plays a strategic role to keep Europe separated from the only option it has left for a strategic alliance to strategically emancipate itself from the US: China. [3]

[2] if they were so servile, why is Trump punishing and mistreating them so publicly in the name of Make America Great Again? The same holds for Zelensky

[3] Who remembers those idiots, pardon I meant the maximum experts on economy, military, propaganda, morality, geopolitical realism, in this thread who were spinning the propaganda that Russia and Europe will ally and grow prosperous in peace ever after because the US is doomed to fight China (and Isreal is doomed to disappear from earth thanks to the Palestinian cause) raise your hands!

The Trump administration says a land expropriation law South Africa recently passed was “blatantly” discriminatory against its white Afrikaners, who are descendants of Dutch and other European colonials. The Trump administration said the South African government was allowing violent attacks against Afrikaner farming communities.
https://apnews.com/article/south-africa-trump-musk-afrikaners-0f58dfe1651671d30fcbe16d00c3d99c

Donald Trump Keeps Teasing a Third Term. Here’s What to Know
https://time.com/7222820/trump-third-term-president-explainer-pathways-constitution-courts-legal-experts/

Trump Blames Ukraine for Invasion.

The great betrayal has begun.

As far as Mr. Trump is concerned, Russia is not responsible for the war that has devastated its neighbor. Instead, he suggests that Ukraine is to blame for Russia’s invasion of it. To listen to Mr. Trump talk with reporters on Tuesday about the conflict was to hear a version of reality that would be unrecognizable on the ground in Ukraine and certainly would never have been heard from any other American president of either party.

In Mr. Trump’s telling, Ukrainian leaders were at fault for the war for not agreeing to surrender territory and therefore, he suggested, they do not deserve a seat at the table for the peace talks that he has just initiated with Mr. Putin. “You should have never started it,” Mr. Trump said, referring to Ukrainian leaders who, in fact, did not start it. “You could have made a deal.”

Speaking at his Mar-a-Lago estate in Florida, he went on: “You have a leadership now that’s allowed a war to go on that should have never even happened.” By contrast, Mr. Trump uttered not one word of reproach for Mr. Putin or for Russia. — NY Times

The Manchurian Candidate has finally been activated. Well played, Mr Putin!

Ukrainian leaders were at fault for the war for not agreeing to surrender territory — NY Times

Perfectly matching with what the maximum expert on economy, military, propaganda, morality, geopolitical realism in thread said: "The Americans making a mea culpa over the Ukraine debacle".

BTW who could possibly be at fault for the war for not agreeing to surrender territory in Palestine? Does anybody have any clue whatsoever? The maximum expert on economy, military, propaganda, morality, geopolitical realism must know, mustn't he?

The Manchurian Candidate has finally been activated. Well played, Mr Putin!

This gives Putin legitimacy in his claim that this is Europe’s war, by encouraging and giving military support to Ukraine. Alongside EU expansionism.

Daily Mail and Sun seem to running with this Trump "peace plan", which obviously is made in the Kremlin. Sceptical if it really would be so. What is missing is the part that Ukraine has to choose somebody else than Zelenskyi in the next elections. But US troops withdrawing from the Baltics is ominous.

[/img]

Molotov-Ribbentrop pack II.

Meanwhile, another executive order by Trump to further centralize power: https://www.whitehouse.gov/fact-sheets/2025/02/fact-sheet-president-donald-j-trump-reins-in-independent-agencies-to-restore-a-government-that-answers-to-the-american-people/
Autocracy waaaaaay much better than a deep state.

It was reported today (I didn't verify) Trump blamed Ukraine for the war. That's really taking victim blaming to new heights...

Yep, right from the orange mouth itself:



He is really not mentally capable for his job.

Ukraine, the state, was made aware of what would be the consequences of its choices from 2008 onward. It's not strictly a victim in this at all.

Of course, for Trump to say this is a bit rich. After all, it's the US that lured them into this course of action, and the US has presumably had a gigantic influence in Ukrainian affairs for it to get to this point.

Here's the entirety of Trump's post on Tuesday, rationalizing his becoming aligned with Putin:

"Think of it, a modestly successful comedian, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, talked the United States of America into spending $350 Billion Dollars, to go into a War that couldn’t be won, that never had to start, but a War that he, without the U.S. and “TRUMP,” will never be able to settle. The United States has spent $200 Billion Dollars more than Europe, and Europe’s money is guaranteed, while the United States will get nothing back. Why didn’t Sleepy Joe Biden demand Equalization, in that this War is far more important to Europe than it is to us — We have a big, beautiful Ocean as separation. On top of this, Zelenskyy admits that half of the money we sent him is “MISSING.” He refuses to have Elections, is very low in Ukrainian Polls, and the only thing he was good at was playing Biden “like a fiddle.” A Dictator without Elections, Zelenskyy better move fast or he is not going to have a Country left. In the meantime, we are successfully negotiating an end to the War with Russia, something all admit only “TRUMP,” and the Trump Administration, can do. Biden never tried, Europe has failed to bring Peace, and Zelenskyy probably wants to keep the “gravy train” going. I love Ukraine, but Zelenskyy has done a terrible job, his Country is shattered, and MILLIONS have unnecessarily died – And so it continues….."

For the most part, Trump isn't being irrational here, he's simply being amoral, valuing only money. He believes profits will be maximized by supporting Putin. Although blaming Ukraine for failing to give Putin everything he wanted is bonkers.

More on "The Americans making a mea culpa over the Ukraine debacle"

Apparently even the guru Mearsheimer [1] didn't expect this turn around which he was so vocally very much predicting suggesting for years: the alliance between the US and Russia against China. The irony.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5-L5pyXLZQ

For the most part, Trump isn't being irrational here, he's simply being amoral, valuing only money. He believes profits will be maximized by supporting Putin. Although blaming Ukraine for failing to give Putin everything he wanted is bonkers. — Relativist

Actually, Trump is indeed irrational as this is bonkers. There's no rationality here. What kind of "negotiator" Trump thinks he is? Look, I think we are close to the fact that Trump will leave NATO, because those nasty Europeans took the side of Ukraine and wouldn't go along with his (Putin's) great Nobel-peace award winning peace plan. There's no "adults in the room" to save this from Trump. So he can go back to a trade war stuff.

I think the whole Trump peace deal didn't get even further than this.

And Putin has is achieving his greatest victory by Trump ruining the groundwork for US to be a superpower. I think he will just use the hapless idiot Trump for as long as he can, as he quite can now that things can change in the US, because not everybody in the US are braindead. Putin's agenda is to crush the US and get it go back to it's own Continent and then stay their eating it's apple pie. And it's really working well. So he will happily enforce Trump's hallucinations of a US-Russia axis, as if he would give away China and put his cards with a lunatic like Trump.

^{(from an earlier comment, Sep 10, 2024, evidence-collection and observations continue)}

NATO was an excuse

Ukraine’s independence, sovereignty, and status as a country, was established in 1991 more or less throughout the world. That was a couple of years after the Berlin Wall came down. Changes were in the air.

The relationship between Ukraine and NATO goes back to Ukraine’s independence: increased cooperation in 1994, 1997, 2002, 2005; decreased 2010; increased 2014, 2018; U-turn 2022; back again 2022; …

Sometime before 2009, the Kremlin circle (ex-KGB and the like) decided that it would be intolerable to lose control over Crimea, and perhaps lose empowering influence on Ukraine, something along those lines, and that they would need a land bridge to whatever they hence might have to grab. A new or extended Kharkiv Pact wouldn’t do, for example. Couldn’t be left to an independent country to decide.

And that uncompromising decision marked, and set, the — henceforth seemingly inevitable — collision course of which we’ve seen the results. Likely not an overnight decision, more like an irredentist, “entitled”, “ownership”, or revanchist sentiment, possibly since the Cold War in those circles.

It’s a thread throughout (elsewhere, 2013, 2018, 2021, 2024).

Ukraine wrestling free from the dominating, northern neighbor, wouldn’t be easy — isn’t easy. And their NATO aspirations were, perhaps predictably (2022, 2022), a useful excuse for the Kremlin to attack/invade, (pseudo-)annex (2014, 2022), assimilate, regardless of Ukraine’s sovereignty. If their rationale was merely NATO, then what was all this about, and what was accomplished? Besides, something similar would apply to any strong defence that Ukraine would seek membership of. NATO was the most likely around to get in the way of unimpeded Russian military (or Russification) actions, and the Kremlin had years to prepare. We can now conclude that the aspirations were justified.

Quoting Wikipedia, which has the requisite references, here’s what the Ukrainians want(ed):

Protesters opposed what they saw as widespread government corruption, abuse of power, human rights violations, and the influence of oligarchs. — Euromaidan (2013-2014)

Protesters opposed what they saw as widespread government corruption and abuse of power, the influence of Russia and oligarchs, police brutality, human rights violations, and repressive anti-protest laws. — Revolution of Dignity (2014)

Abandoning the Ukrainians would have the faint whiff of cowardice, broken promises, appeasement and encouragement of the attacker, more so if echoing their lines (2022, 2022) — free expansion of non-democracy.

You're right, Trump is irrational. A better characterization is that he rationalizes some of the things he does.

Re: Nato, he has already de facto left it. He will never authorize US forces to defend an ally. Violating the NATO treaty is as easy as violating trade treaties. In the meantime, he could draw down US forces stationed in Europe and maintain a facade of membership to avoid much domestic heat.

Re: Trump-Putin, Trump is Putin's useful idiot. I'm not sure what you mean by Putin "crushing" us. He feels he can successfully compete in a world that ignores moral values and in which what is considered "true" is malleable. That's a pretty strong competitive advantage.

If Trump invites Putin back into the fold, and it seems likely, it will thrown Putin a lifeline, just when the Russian economy was really beginning to fold under the impact of sanctions. Then if the US signs off on a 'peace deal' that gives an inch to Russian demands (as you can bet they will), Putin will say that he's had a major win, even if he didn't succeed in totally occupying Ukraine as per the initial aim. Then what? Do Ukraine and Europe try to continue the fight against a revitalised Russia without US support? Will the US say then that Ukraine are not observing whatever treaty they've tried to impose? If the UK puts 'boots on the ground' and the other European nations follow suit, it looks awfully like a war between Europe and Russia, with the US at least tacitly supporting Putin.

This is the stuff of nightmares. And it kept me awake last night.

If Trump invites Putin back into the fold, and it seems likely, it will thrown Putin a lifeline, just when the Russian economy was really beginning to fold under the impact of sanctions. Then if the US signs off on a 'peace deal' that gives an inch to Russian demands (as you can bet they will), Putin will say that he's had a major win, even if he didn't succeed in totally occupying Ukraine as per the initial aim. Then what? Do Ukraine and Europe try to continue the fight against a revitalised Russia without US support? Will the US say then that Ukraine are not observing whatever treaty they've tried to impose? If the UK puts 'boots on the ground' and the other European nations follow suit, it looks awfully like a war between Europe and Russia, with the US at least tacitly supporting Putin.

This is the stuff of nightmares. And it kept me awake last night. — Wayfarer

I sleep quite well here on the border to Russia. Doesn't effect my sleeping. My country's military has already been for years preparing for war. Ci vis pacem, para bellum.

Yes, Trump is rescuing Putin from a defeat. Actually the dire situation of Putin can be seen from that he is even willing to participate in talks. Then he can look at how the "peace keepers" behave. Shoot them with a tank. First say it was an accident (or something as crazy). Then wear them down. Or have you buddies China there and then venture into Ukraine to get some "war criminal" or something. Behave in Ukraine as Israel behaves in Lebanon, or something like that.

Then get Trump to withdraw forces from the Baltics. Have Trump talk down on the Balts, by how badly they take care of their Russian minorities or so. And behold what do you know? You will have ethnic violence in the Baltic states and Russia has to send peacekeepers to defend the ethnic Russians there, or there simply go "volunteers", just as for years before 2022 Russian "volunteers" were fighting in the Donbas with tanks and artillery.

And because it's a "domestic crisis" and not an "invasion" and the Balts are anyway nazis, so why would the US lift a finger. EU members shouldn't get involved, they should first get their democracies working, as JD Vance said.

Glad to hear you say that. I'm probably older than you, born first half of fifties, I was seven during the Cuban Missile Crisis, my parents were extremely anxious. I've always had a sense of the possibility of an imminent armageddon, and Trump seems a character from central casting to precipitate one.

Well that was a tight brush with destiny. But remember that then Russia had only a few intercontinental missiles back then. That's why somebody like general Curtis LeMay was for having that round with the Soviets. Just a couple of million Americans would have died, so what's the problem? By the 1980's it was different and then it really was a different number of the ICBMs. So when Able Archer '83 came around and the Soviets nearly went to nuclear war (anticipating that Reagan would make a surprise nuclear attack), that was in my lifetime too.

And Hey! We all lived through a pandemic, remember? That wasn't so bad. According to one statistic, only seven million deaths in the world and one million in the US. And since your old, but having this discussion with me, likely you have had the flew and didn't die (obviously). Trump cannot get us to WW3, he will fail even in that. :wink:

Vladimir Solovyov, a leading Putin TV propagandist, has reversed his stance on America after witnessing the Trump administration's efforts to end the war, which included dismissing Europe. Speaking to his viewers on Russian state TV, Solovyov proposed: "Why not create a military coalition of Russia and America and divide Europe to hell?" He added: "Well, who needs it? It's possible - I think it's a great idea, right? " Solovyov envisioned a scenario where Russian and American troops would assume control, thereby relieving Europe of its need for defense forces.
He continued: "Bring in Russian and American troops, and Europe won't have to defend itself from anyone. Quietly, carefully, we'll set up our bases in the usual places. Berlin, Paris, like in 1814.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/putin-s-confident-he-s-on-brink-of-winning-war-with-europe-division-fears/ar-AA1zmoTe

When Russian forces crashed over the borders into Ukraine in 2022 determined to wipe it off the map as an independent state, the United States rushed to aid the beleaguered nation and cast its president, Volodymyr Zelensky, as a hero of resistance.

From NY Times.

Laughable.

, I was seven during the Cuban Missile Crisis, — Wayfarer

I had a feeling you were younger than me! I was 8 in Oct 1962.

This article goes through Trump's recent lies about Ukraine: Fact check: Trump’s barrage of lies about Zelensky and Ukraine

"[Trump]said Tuesday: “I think Europe has given $100 billion and we’ve given, let’s say, $300-plus (billion).” He wrote Wednesday: “The United States has spent $200 Billion Dollars more than Europe.”
Reality: wartime military, financial and humanitarian aid to Ukraine through December:
Europe- $258 billion committed; $148 billion allocated
US- $124 billion committed; $119 billion allocated.

Trump: "Zelensky has a 4% approval rating"
Actual: 52-57%

In the Wednesday social media post, Trump falsely claimed that Zelensky “admits that half of the money we sent him is ‘MISSING.’”
Zelensky has made no such admission...He said in a February 1 interview with the Associated Press that although people talk about Ukraine getting as much as $200 billion in US aid, Ukraine had received about $76 billion, largely in the form of weapons. Zelensky said he doesn’t know where all the professed additional money has gone and that perhaps these higher figures are correct “on paper,”

Close! I was nine!

Yes 1983 was the point of real danger.

Baerbock let it slip the other day that the EU is prepairing €700billion aid package for Ukraine. Apparently it was being kept quiet until after the German election. Looks like Europe is going to step up to the plate after all.
It was always going to happen, with or without US help. The day Putin threatened Europe with nuclear attack the day of the invasion, European history changed. Now they will re-arm and take care of their own security.