Extroversion feels fake / phony

WISDOMfromPO-MO

I can't get this article to download right now for me to read, so I am going to have to assume that it is the article that I have in mind and that I am remembering the content correctly.

Anyway, for much of my life I have been told that I am pathologically shy, and believed it. Only in the last several years have I come to see that I am deeply introverted and that that is a completely different thing from being shy. Everybody who directly stated or implied that I am shy was off base.

Problem solved!

Not so fast, that aforementioned article says. We are social beings and neglecting to perform socially--no matter if it is due to an introvert's preference to observe rather than speak, a shy person's debilitating stage fright (in all interactions, not just up on a stage), or something in between--is considered by the large majority of people to be a form of deviance. Not the harmless deviance of smoking marijuana or getting a tattoo. Intolerable deviance. It is considered anti-social behavior, basically.

Okay, fine, even though I am busy inside working on a piece of writing, the decor of my apartment, etc., I need to perform socially. I am a horrible human being--a threat to society--if I don't. I will continue to be subjected to harsh social sanctions if I don't. Fine.

Good news, shyness and introversion police. After a long hiatus, I am again on the front line of interacting with the public in the role of a cashier. And believe me, I have taken advantage of the opportunity to practice extroversion.

Here's the problem: it feels very phony. It feels fake. I am not being paid/compensated as much as Harrison Ford or Robert Redford, but I sure am doing a lot of acting like them.

Haven't you heard that evolution by natural selection selected extroverted social interaction in human cultures? Without it we would have already met the fate that the dinosaurs met, maybe you have heard. It's bad enough that some people (shy people) are too overwhelmed by fear of embarrassment to do it prolifically and fluently. Yet, some people, gasp, a lot of the time prefer not to do it. Some people, gasp, prefer to be alone for long periods and to be observing rather than talking when they are not alone. I guess evolution lets some exceptions slip through the cracks.

Let me be clear: Just when you think that evolutionary psychology has already reached the apex of absurdity you get something like what I have been talking about here. So if you are a shy person please do not think that I am agreeing with anything that has been said here about shyness. If shyness is a threat to society--I don't think it is--it is probably the least of a million threats to society.

But the point I want to make here is that I now know what my duty is, I am working on it, and it feels extremely fake. Not only does it feel fake, it is in no way rewarding. It's not like suddenly-extroverted me now has a lot of friends and a busy social life. And not only is it not rewarding, it is kind of exhausting.

Dogar

I have never subscribed to the extroversion/introversion dichotomy. It seems to me that it's basically a broad spectrum, with the extroverted ones learning social cues and expected actions from repeated social processes from a young age, while the introverted ones made missteps along the way and never quite made it past some arbitrary plateau specific to the person in question. I believe every introvert could become an extrovert, but after adolescence learning these social cues and expectations and adapting to them or incorporating them subconsciously becomes much more difficult, similar to different stages of learning a language or a musical instrument. Socialising by nature is exhausting, that shouldn't be a surprise. You're keeping your brain constantly alert for hours at a time. How is that not exhausting? Regarding a feeling of reward, what exactly did you think was going to change by forcing yourself to become more extroverted? Working as a cashier and forcing oneself to interact with people isn't exactly the definition of a successful extrovert.

I don't believe solitude is a function of introversion either.

WISDOMfromPO-MO

Extroversion and introversion are not skills.

They are personal preferences.

And, yeah, if one prefers to relate to the world one way but is forced to relate to the world another way, it can be exhausting.

praxis

I skimmed the Atlantic article and thought it a waist of time with little substance.

They say you can't fake extroversion and it's a mistake to try because if it feels fake to you it will certainly feel fake to others and that is very off putting, which defeats the purpose of connecting with others, assuming that's the purpose. Instead it's recommended to work from the inside out, developing an inner calm, however that might be accomplished (I'm currently trying hypnotherapy with some success), developing a genuine liking for others and a desire to connect, and also being selective in the circumstances or environment of where you practice, choosing situations where you naturally feel most comfortable. Indeed the situation of working at a cash register might be optimal.

Michael

↪WISDOMfromPO-MO

Extroversion is obviously going to feel fake if you're an introvert – because it would be. And introversion would be fake if you're an extrovert.

Nils Loc

Obviously we see why there would be an intolerance for shyness in the service industry. Extroverted traits and pro social skills will always be preferred in these settings.

There is a small part of my job that requires superficial social interaction and small talk. Several times I've reflected that my behavior might've seemed rude but it is never intentional, just a poor response because I'm pressed for time and don't know how cut it short.

I think conversation is a social skill and that you can down regulate the fear response that gets in the way with practice. Just because it feels fake now doesn't mean it will always feel fake.

Why isn't all the anonymous conversation generated here not an example of extroversion? Do your posts feel phony to you?

WISDOMfromPO-MO

Obviously we see why there would be an intolerance for shyness in the service industry. Extroverted traits and pro social skills will always be preferred in these settings. — Nils Loc

One can be shy and have good interpersonal skills.

One can be extroverted and have poor interpersonal skills.

Introversion, extroversion and shyness are not about skills/abilities.

think conversation is a social skill and that you can down regulate the fear response that gets in the way with practice. Just because it feels fake now doesn't mean it will always feel fake. — Nils Loc

I did not say that I do or do not have certain skills. I have good skills as a conversationalist. I have good public speaking and presentational skills.

I said that I am deeply introverted. That means that I am often far away in my own internal world remembering something, writing something, etc.

If I am reaching out and speaking because I have something to say that I have thought about deeply, that's one thing. If I am be outgoing for the sake of being outgoing, that is another.

The latter is forced extroversion and the results feel fake.

Why isn't all the anonymous conversation generated here not an example of extroversion? Do your posts feel phony to you? — Nils Loc

Because I am purposefully reaching out when I am ready to talk about something I have thought about. It's not empty, on-demand interaction for the sake of interaction.

Hanover

Here's the problem: it feels very phony. It feels fake. I am not being paid/compensated as much as Harrison Ford or Robert Redford, but I sure am doing a lot of acting like them. — WISDOMfromPO-MO

The job of cashier requires that you accept people's money for the good you're selling and to exchange niceties in order to have them return and buy other things. It's no more fake that you act like a guy who rings people up than it is that you act like someone who cares about your customers' day. You're just doing a job.

At Disney World I am told that they pay they workers to be actors, so if you're job is that of an old world street sweeper, you skip down the road and whistle a happy tune and talk to the young kids as you sweep the streets. You're being paid to act like a cashier. Do that.

I get that you're an introvert. So am I. I'd guess most of us here lean toward introversion. It's not a disorder and it has its value, but it also has it's problems, so you'll need to set it aside sometimes. Insisting upon being yourself isn't always the best way to get along with others.

Jake Tarragon

Extroversion and introversion are not skills.

They are personal preferences. — WISDOMfromPO-MO

They are personality traits actually. "They" say extroverts are happier than introverts, and that introverts often want to be more extrovert if only they knew how. They also say that introverts can be trained to be more extrovert. "They" are psychologists who have performed experiments etc. I think they may be right, in moderation.

Rich

Extroversion and introversion are not skills.

They are personal preferences.

And, yeah, if one prefers to relate to the world one way but is forced to relate to the world another way, it can be exhausting. — WISDOMfromPO-MO

There are many ways to describe it I guess. One way might be that it is more comfortable being introverted or extraverted. And it does take a lot of effort to act otherwise. The soul runs deep like a lake, and only so much on the surface can probably change in one lifetime. It's just something sometime may try to change if one wishes. I was quite introverted until college when I decided I would try to change a bit.

WISDOMfromPO-MO

The job of cashier requires that you accept people's money for the good you're selling and to exchange niceties in order to have them return and buy other things. It's no more fake that you act like a guy who rings people up than it is that you act like someone who cares about your customers' day. You're just doing a job. — Hanover

One can act like he/she cares without being "outgoing"--without channeling all energy outward.

I did not say that any role I am in requires anything. I said that I am using a role I am now in--fast-paced interaction with many people in a small time frame--to practice channeling energy outward, and that the results feel fake.

You're being paid to act like a cashier. Do that. — Hanover

And I am using the opportunity to practice something that I am not paid for but is apparently morally required: extroversion.

Insisting upon being yourself isn't always the best way to get along with others. — Hanover

It is others demanding/insisting on something (extroversion), not me.

WISDOMfromPO-MO

There are many ways to describe it I guess. One way might be that it is more comfortable being introverted or extraverted. And it does take a lot of effort to act otherwise. The soul runs deep like a lake, and only so much on the surface can probably change in one lifetime. It's just something sometime may try to change if one wishes. I was quite introverted until college when I decided I would try to change a bit. — Rich

If it is what the people one is with need from him/her then that is reason to do it without any problem, just like if one is comfortable working at a normal pace but his/her boss needs him/her to work with more urgency then that is a good reason to comply without any problem.

We all have to be flexible, adaptable, etc. to function socially.

But redirecting energy, attention, focus, etc. outward because it is how "normal people" act has always felt fake to me.

Rich

But redirecting energy, attention, focus, etc. outward because it is how "normal people" act has always felt fake to me. — WISDOMfromPO-MO

Introvert/extrovert are just different things to do in life. It was interesting for me to try out being an extrovert, but it was always me. I was funny and enjoyed the laughter. Just an experiment.

WISDOMfromPO-MO

They are personality traits actually. "They" say extroverts are happier than introverts, and that introverts often want to be more extrovert if only they knew how. They also say that introverts can be trained to be more extrovert. "They" are psychologists who have performed experiments etc. I think they may be right, in moderation. — Jake Tarragon

The "knew how" and "trained" make it sound like introversion and extroversion are abilities/skills and that they are learned.

Someone who is extroverted may be more likely to acquire certain abilities/skills, but they are not the same thing as the trait.

Unless "they" mean that introverts wish they had the coping skills to better live with a social world dominated by extroverts or had some more of the soft skills that extroverts are more likely to have developed, I would have to strongly disagree. Some of the people most outspoken about their introversion say that they wish that the world was quieter, not wish that they could better contribute to the non-quiet.

If we're talking about shy people that's a different story. A lot of shy people probably do wish they could be more outgoing.

WISDOMfromPO-MO

Introvert/extrovert are just different things to do in life. It was interesting for me to try out being an extrovert, but it was always me. I was funny and enjoyed the laughter. Just an experiment. — Rich

It always leaves me feeling empty and unfulfilled.

But if the other person/people enjoyed the exchange and it helped us connect then it was a good thing.

Nils Loc

Most cashiers I encounter don't say much that isn't related to the utility of the transaction. A few of them are somewhat dour with an inverted Mona Lisa's smile.

I found UK cashiers seemingly more gloomy and disinterested than USA cashiers from my locality.

Hair cutting folks are the small talk monsters.

Galuchat

David Robinson suggests that differences in the natural frequencies and damping ratios of thalamocortical circuits define four neurological types which correspond to the four classical temperaments, to wit:

(1) Sanguine (pleasure-seeking and sociable)
(a) Low natural frequency and low damping ratio.

(2) Choleric (ambitious and leader-like)
(a) Low natural frequency and high damping ratio.

(3) Melancholic (analytical and quiet)
(a) High natural frequency and low damping ratio.

(4) Phlegmatic (relaxed and peaceful)
(a) High natural frequency and high damping ratio.

Robinson, D. L. (December 2008). Brain Function, Emotional Experience and Personality. Netherlands Journal of Psychology, Volume 64, Issue 4, pp.152–167).

So, whether you are generally introverted or extroverted may very well be a case of how you are "wired". I suspect that very few extroverts would be members of a philosophy forum.

Rich

It always leaves me feeling empty and unfulfilled.

But if the other person/people enjoyed the exchange and it helped us connect then it was a good thing. — WISDOMfromPO-MO

To learn and create something new takes lots of patience. I am still practicing drawing ovals as I learn how to draw. It is only frustrating or empty if I've expects too much in one lifetime. Small steps are fine and require a lot less energy.

WISDOMfromPO-MO

To learn and create something new takes lots of patience. I am still practicing drawing ovals as I learn how to draw. It is only frustrating or empty if I've expects too much in one lifetime. Small steps are fine and require a lot less energy. — Rich

I've spent too much of my life worrying about and trying to be something I am not: an extrovert.

And I think that it is more about lifestyle, goals, etc. than it is about personality. When I was in middle school and high school I had several close friends and was active in a lot of social activities such as church. But as a young adult I made a commitment to certain causes and chose to forgo a lot of things, make a lot of sacrifices, and accept the struggles and suffering that come with the territory. The result has been a lonely existence.

I honestly don't know what other people have in mind most of the time when they talk about extroversion and introversion. I think of myself as deeply introverted because no matter what I am doing--working at one of my two jobs; grocery shopping; driving a car; sitting in the stands at a baseball game--I am busy very deep inside creating, imagining, problem solving, etc. For example, when I was walking the concourses at Cincinnati Reds games at Riverfront Stadium in the 80's and 90's I was probably busy inside imagining that it was the mid-70's and what the place felt like, the people looked like, etc. as I was about to watch one of the great teams of the Big Red Machine era. But it's not like I don't initiate conversation with people (including strangers), take charge in the workplace, talk to the point that people wish I would shut up, etc.

The extroverted way of relating to the world leaves a lot out. I remember what it was like being with friends a lot of the time and having hours and hours of uninterrupted direct social interaction. I have known what it is like since then to be in solitude a lot of the time and to tune out a lot of the background noise when I am around people. I would not trade the experiences that the latter two have yielded for anything.

But if anybody needs another partner in extreme extroverted social interaction I am sure that I could play the role well. However, not many people are interested in having such interaction with a person who overwhelmingly has things like intellectual matters on his mind.

WISDOMfromPO-MO

Most cashiers I encounter don't say much that isn't related to the utility of the transaction. A few of them are somewhat dour with an inverted Mona Lisa's smile.

I found UK cashiers seemingly more gloomy and disinterested than USA cashiers from my locality.

Hair cutting folks are the small talk monsters. — Nils Loc

Even if it is not in some extremely defined role like cashier, extroversion feels fake, I have noticed.

Even if it is part of spontaneous conversation, extroversion feels fake.

WISDOMfromPO-MO

I suspect that very few extroverts would be members of a philosophy forum — Galuchat

I sense that when people are talking about introversion and extroversion they often do not have the same things in mind.

To me introversion is directing energy inward while extroversion is directing energy outward.

I think that talking about shyness, quiet/reserved, social skills, intelligence, being a "people person", etc. is missing the point. A friend once described himself as a "shy extrovert". I think of myself as deeply introverted, but too often I end up dominating conversations (I don't like it; I certainly do not like being the center of attention).

When you say that you suspect that few extroverts would be members of a philosophy forum, what makes you say this? Is it your idea of extroversion that makes you say it? Is it something about the nature of philosophy?

WISDOMfromPO-MO

Now that I am able to read the article again, I see that my memory of it was very accurate:

"The shy are frequently thoughtful and occasionally brilliant. They are often sensitive to the needs, and the gaze, of others. The problem is that they live in a world that, despite the commonality of shyness, has extremely little patience for it..."

"He also knows what a quietly radical proposition it is to celebrate shyness. The far more fashionable thing—particularly in Britain, where Shrinking Violets was initially published, and even more so in the United States—has been to treat shyness as a problem to be treated and then, if at all possible, never mentioned again. Shyness, so emotionally adjacent to shame, is often also regarded as a cause for it. Within a culture that so deeply values self-confidence—and that takes for granted that social skills are external evidence of one’s internal self-regard—shyness is seen with suspicion. Quietness, in a world that is loud, can make for an easy enemy..."

"Dalton’s ideas live on, today, in the broad recognition, within anthropology and far beyond, that shyness will have cultural components as well as physiological. They also live on, however, in the notion that shyness is best understood not just as the complicated interplay between the human brain and the social world, but also, more simply, as a deviation. Sociability is normal; shyness, it must follow, is abnormal. After all, we humans are—it is a cliché because it is so deeply true—social animals. We define ourselves as a species through our shared garrulousness as much as our shared DNA, through the fact that we put our opposable thumbs to work not just building shelter and creating art, but also writing letters and grasping phones and punctuating the making of evening plans with some enthusiastic dancing-lady emojis. We are human, in some small but profound part, because we are human together.

It is on those social-evolutionary grounds, though, that shyness is sometimes suspected, and sometimes pathologized. Shy people, the sociologist Susie Scott argued, are not merely choosing solitude over companionship, or small groups over larger ones; they are conducting, each time they beg off or turn away, an “unintentional breaching experiment.” They are, in their very shyness, deviating from the broader social order..."

"Moran, in his book, has summoned insights from the ancients to their successors to prove what he, as a shy person, has already lived and known, all too well: that the world, for all the strides it has made when it comes to progress and acceptance, still does not look kindly on timidity..."

"Just as schools and businesses, as Cain argued, are generally built for extroverts—because, indeed, they are so often built by extroverts—so, too, Moran suggests, are the world’s social structures generally most accommodating of the lusty and the loud.

Squeaky wheels, as it were, get the cultural primacy. And that may be especially so now, as American culture not only offers more ways to talk than ever before, but also as it tends to emphasize talking as a panaceatic requirement of modern life. Good and constant communication, many assume (or hope), will help to ensure successful business ventures, and successful romantic partnerships, and successful educational performance. Extroversion will save us..." (emphasis mine)

Galuchat

When you say that you suspect that few extroverts would be members of a philosophy forum, what makes you say this? Is it your idea of extroversion that makes you say it? Is it something about the nature of philosophy? — WISDOMfromPO-MO

Both. It is the psychological concept of introversion-extraversion and the primarily thoughtful nature of philosophy. Behaviour is criterial evidence of psychological predicates.

WISDOMfromPO-MO

It is the psychological concept of introversion-extraversion... — Galuchat

But I am never sure what other people have in mind when they bring up that concept.

I have said what I have in mind: directing energy inward or outward.

Galuchat

↪WISDOMfromPO-MO

When there is little consensus on the meaning of terms as they are used in areas of academic study or professional practise (in this case, Psychology), I use dictionaries. For the purposes of this discussion, I find the Psychology meanings in dictionary.com acceptable (which correspond with your definition). Whether or not elaborations are required depend on the course of discussion.

WISDOMfromPO-MO

Galuchat — Galuchat

The aforementioned article associates communications technology like this online forum with extroversion and says that communications technology has and continues to reinforce and expand modern life/culture's emphasis on extroversion.

It sounds like no particular tradition, subject-matter, discipline, etc. is the province of either introversion or extroversion. If one personality trait is disproportionately represented in philosophy it might be due to philosophy's small, relatively obscure role in modern life, not the inherent nature of philosophy. If introverts are disproportionately represented in science it might be due to the long hours that success in science demands (I suspect that it is not physics graduate students doing much of the partying on campus), not the inherent nature of science. Someone who needs a lot of socializing could probably do good at philosophy or science if he/she applied him/herself, but may not have the patience for it. In other words, it is the methods/techniques, not content suited for certain brain wiring, of work like philosophy that likely explain any disproportionate representation of introverts.

Extroversion feels fake / phony

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