• Banno
    25.2k
    the newly minted 'thing' that the word represents...Mark Aman
    Not all words are nouns. Not all words represent.
  • Mark Aman
    7

    Sure... Please see:
    As the names of things proliferated, language was required to comprehend the nuances, actions and interactions of things as well as their relatively static, nominal state of being. Thus developed the need for verbs, adjectival and adverbial expressions and well as nominal ones.Mark Aman
  • Mark Aman
    7
    You sort of made this up. There's no way to know that the first man did.Hanover
    I see where you would think this... that I 'made it up'... but that's only if you are thinking factually about the details of 'what happened' at a certain moment in the distant past. Of course these details can not be known. But my reasoning here is not factual. What I'm looking for is not the first words 'in fact' but rather the 'first principle' of human language.
    As for the 'first copulation'... well, that's hard to say indeed since, unlike with language, there is a very indistinct line between the animal version and the human version... maybe very little distinction at all in fact. That's where humans return to their animal natures and become, for better or for worse, 'speechless'.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    13.2k
    I can long for the girlfriend I had when I was 18, but I don't need her.
    I can long for a peanut butter sandwich, but I don't need one.

    I need food.
    I need water.

    Seems to me there is a bit of a difference.
    Sir2u

    Sure there's a difference but I didn't imply that all cases of longing for something absent are cases of need. I asked how do you conceive of need as something other than a case of longing for something absent. Do you see the difference? If longing for something absent is the larger category, then all cases of need might be cases of longing for something absent, but not all cases of longing for something absent are cases of need.

    So I asked you, in response to your post, how is need not a form of longing for something absent. To answer that not all cases of longing for something absent are cases of need, does not answer the question.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    13.2k
    However, ONLY when an object is ABSENT, is there a need to 'call' it back into presence.Mark Aman

    As a memory aid we make markings, writing. Vocal language is used to communicate with others. The two are guided by completely different intentions and likely developed separately, in the beginning. For example, numbers probably developed in a written form, such as simple marks, prior to ever having a verbal form.
  • Sir2u
    3.5k
    If longing for something absent is the larger category,Metaphysician Undercover

    Which it is not because it is not even a synonym of need and therefore not in the same category.
    Similar word to longing would be
    hankering
    yearning
    desire

    None of which actually imply need.
    requirement
    necessary
    want
    necessity
    requisite
    essential

    So I asked you, in response to your post, how is need not a form of longing for something absentMetaphysician Undercover

    It is obvious I think that while some people think of a desire as being the same as a necessity they are incorrect.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    13.2k
    Which it is not because it is not even a synonym of need and therefore not in the same category.
    Similar word to longing would be
    hankering
    yearning
    desire

    None of which actually imply need.
    requirement
    necessary
    want
    necessity
    requisite
    essential
    Sir2u

    You're still not addressing the question. The fact that you can name many longings for something absent which are not needs, still does not necessitate the conclusion that need is not a longing for something absent. You may continue to increase your list of longings, showing that none of them imply need, but this will never demonstrate that need is not a longing.

    It is obvious I think that while some people think of a desire as being the same as a necessity they are incorrect.Sir2u

    Clearly I am not equating desire and need. If you think that two things are said to be the same, just because they are said to be of the same category, you sorely misunderstand.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    13.2k

    Why do you place "want" in the category other than "desire"?
  • Sir2u
    3.5k
    You may continue to increase your list of longings, showing that none of them imply need, but this will never demonstrate that need is not a longing.Metaphysician Undercover
    It is something about the way a word is used that gives it its meaning.

    When I say "I long for a piece of cheese" is there any need implied?

    When I say "I need food" it does not in anyway mean that I long for a piece of cheese. It simply means that I have to eat to survive.

    Longing, as you yourself said is a desire for something absent, it does not mean that I need what is absent.

    Clearly I am not equating desire and need.Metaphysician Undercover

    But you are when you say that they are in the same category. Why does desire only appear as a synonym for longing and necessity not appear for longing.
    Because they have different meanings!
  • Sir2u
    3.5k
    Why do you place "want" in the category other than "desire"?Metaphysician Undercover

    I don't, if you look at the list it is shown as a synonym for need.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    13.2k
    When I say "I need food" it does not in anyway mean that I long for a piece of cheese. It simply means that I have to eat to survive.Sir2u

    This is what I disagree with. How can you need food without having a longing for it? What validates your claim that you need it, other than your longing for it? Without the longing for it, you are just being dishonest in your claim of needing food, because you are not even hungry. It may be true that you need food to survive, but not now because you're not even hungry, so your statement "I need food" is false.

    But you are when you say that they are in the same category.Sir2u

    Two things of the same category are not the same thing, they are in some way similar. So I am saying that desire and need are similar, but not the same.

    I don't, if you look at the list it is shown as a synonym for need.Sir2u

    You have "want" as a synonym for "need", and "desire" as a synonym for "longing". Yet "desire" and "want" are commonly synonymous, and you want a categorical separation between "need" and "longing". Why?
  • Sir2u
    3.5k
    and you want a categorical separation between "need" and "longing". Why?Metaphysician Undercover

    I don't want anything of the sort. I am just trying to point out that need and longing are 2 different things. They might be related by some of their synonyms the context in which each is used is completely separate from each other.

    Try this.
    I need a glass of water.
    I desire a glass of water.
    I want a glass of water.
    I long for a glass of water.

    Do they all mean the same thing?
  • Sir2u
    3.5k
    Without the longing for it, you are just being dishonest in your claim of needing food, because you are not even hungry.Metaphysician Undercover

    Me thinks you have it backwards.

    I am not in the least hungry right now, after just finishing a can of sardines on toast and washing them down with a few beers. But I long for a big juicy steak.

    If the freaking hurricane is going to come through here on Sunday I need to buy food right now, but of course I am not hungry. Nor am I longing for the food.

    The need for somethings can be a requisite for life, name a longing that is necessary for your well being.
  • Banno
    25.2k
    you give indeserved prominence to nouns.
  • creativesoul
    12k
    ...ONLY when an object is ABSENT, is there a need to 'call' it back into presence.

    The problem, of course, is that calling something back into presence is not the only reason to 'call'...
  • Galuchat
    809
    A need produces desire. There are desires which arise from need, and desires which do not arise from need.

    The problem, of course, is that calling something back into presence is not the only reason to 'call' — creativesoul

    I agree.

    Also, if language developed as a modelling system (as opposed to being derived from a communication system), it seems reasonable that the first task at hand would be conceptualisation (i.e., the process of forming a concept by abstraction and designation).
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