Is there ambiguity in being a human? — Harry Hindu

Yes, if by "human" you mean "homo sapiens".

Homo sapiens evolved from homo antecessor, but there was never some single generation where someone who was unambiguously homo antecessor gave birth to someone who was unambiguously homo sapiens.

It was a gradual development from one to the other, with generations of ambiguity inbetween.

The point is that it isn't an counterexample if we go by the definition that being anything means having a majority of the traits for that thing. — Harry Hindu

The particular question I asked was:

Given that some human has ovotesticular syndrome caused by 46,XX/46,XY chimerism, what is the biological feature that either makes them a male or makes them a female? Of particular relevance are those with bilateral ovotestis and/or streak gonads, as well as ambiguous genitalia.

In this case even your "having a majority of the traits" doesn't work, because they have both sets of karyotypes, both sets of gonadal tissue, and genitalia that is neither clearly male nor clearly female.

Just one counterexample is sufficient to disprove your claim that every single human without exception is either (unambiguously) biologically male or (unambiguously) biologically female. — Michael

It's a very very narrow spectrum. 5,999,999,984 female, 28 ambiguous, 5,999,999,984 male

Yes, if by "human" you mean "homo sapiens".

Homo sapiens evolved from homo antecessor, but there was never some single generation where someone who was unambiguously homo antecessor gave birth to someone who was unambiguously homo sapiens.

It was a gradual development from one to the other, with generations of ambiguity in between. — Michael

There is a critical distinction here.
We should not ignore the fact that even the smaller percent of intersex people that can have children have the same 99.9% chance of producing males and females vs the 0.1% of another intersex person. Intersex is not a trait that is passed down to the next generation like the traits that natural selection promotes for evolving into a new species.

Intersex is not a trait that is passed down to the next generation like the traits that natural selection promotes for evolving into a new species. — Harry Hindu

See Report of Fertility in a Woman with a Predominantly 46,XY Karyotype in a Family with Multiple Disorders of Sexual Development:

A 46,XY mother who developed as a normal woman underwent spontaneous puberty, reached menarche, menstruated regularly, experienced two unassisted pregnancies, and gave birth to a 46,XY daughter with complete gonadal dysgenesis.

Sure, genetic disorders can be passed down to the next generation.

Intersex is not a trait that is passed down to the next generation — Harry Hindu

Sure, genetic disorders can be passed down to the next generation. — Harry Hindu

?

Did you not catch the term, "disorder"?

But why are we discussing sex when gender and sex are separate? Isn't this off-topic?

But why are we discussing sex — Harry Hindu

Because some, like Malcolm Parry and AmadeusD, claimed that every single human without exception is either (unambiguously) biologically male or (unambiguously) biologically female.

I was simply responding to this to correct them. Human biology isn't as simple as they think it to be.

Why did you oblige them and not just say they are off-topic? If I recall, you brought up sex earlier in the thread.

Why did you oblige them and not just say they are off-topic? If I recall, you brought up sex earlier in the thread. — Harry Hindu

Because it's somewhat relevant.

If someone claims that men's bathrooms are only for people who are biologically male and women's bathrooms are only for people who are biologically female then we must ask which bathrooms any intersex person should use. Or are they not allowed to use public bathrooms (or compete in sports, or go to prison, etc.)?

But that's the thing. Why have a discussion about bathrooms, sports, and prisons if sex and gender are separate things and bathrooms are divided by sex, not gender?

Why have a discussion about bathrooms, sports, and prisons if sex and gender are separate things and bathrooms are divided by sex, not gender? — Harry Hindu

I just addressed that. If bathrooms are divided by sex then what do we do about intersex people? Are they not allowed to use public bathrooms?

You didn't. You keep bringing up intersex. What does that have to do with gender?

You keep bringing up intersex. — Harry Hindu

Yes, because people like you are claiming that only biological men should use the men's bathrooms and only biological women should use the women's bathrooms. You are the one saying that bathrooms should be divided by biological sex, so I want to know what you think we should do about people who are biologically intersex. Are they allowed to use public bathrooms? Which bathroom should they use?

Yes, because people like you are claiming that only biological men should use the men's bathrooms and only biological women should use the women's bathrooms. You are the one saying that bathrooms should be divided by biological sex, so I want to know what you think we should about people who are biologically intersex. — Michael

Right, but if sex and gender are separate, then why isn't your rebuttal that we are off-topic rather than assume the premise that sex and gender are the same which is where the bathroom, sports and prisons issues are rooted?

The moment anyone brings up bathrooms, sports an prisons, you should tell them they are off-topic. But your responses seem to imply that you are assuming their premise that sex and gender are one and the same.

Right, but if sex and gender are separate, then why isn't your rebuttal that we are off-topic rather than assume the premise that sex and gender are the same which is where the bathroom, sports and prisons issues are rooted? — Harry Hindu

Because it's not off topic.

It's a simple question, so I don't understand why you won't answer. Which bathroom should intersex people use?

Intersex people can use whichever bathroom they want. What does this have to do with trans-people? A vast majority of trans-people are not intersex.

If it's not off-topic then sex and gender are one and the same.

Intersex people can use whichever bathroom they want. What does this have to do with trans-people? A vast majority of trans-people are not intersex. — Harry Hindu

So why is it acceptable for intersex people to use whichever bathroom they want but not trans people? In allowing intersex people in men's bathrooms and intersex people in women's bathrooms you've already accepted that men's bathrooms are not exclusively for biological males and women's bathrooms not exclusively for biological females.

So why is it acceptable for intersex people to use whichever bathroom they want but not trans people? In allowing intersex people in men's bathrooms and intersex people in women's bathrooms you've already accepted that men's bathrooms are not exclusively for biological males and women's bathrooms not exclusively for biological females. — Michael

Because sex and gender are separate. So you're comparing apples and oranges, right?
The men's bathroom is exclusively for men and intersex people. Women's bathrooms are for women and intersex people. I'm not sure how trans-people, which have nothing to do with sex, fits in here.

Because sex and gender are separate. — Harry Hindu

I thought you disagreed with this view?

So you're comparing apples and oranges, right? — Harry Hindu

I'm pointing out the inconsistency in your view. If intersex people are allowed to use women's bathrooms then women's bathrooms are not exclusively for biological females, and if women's bathrooms are not exclusively for biological females then why can't trans women use them?

The men's bathroom is exclusively for men and intersex people. Women's bathrooms are for women and intersex people. I'm not sure how trans-people, which have nothing to do with sex, fits in here. — Harry Hindu

I thought you disagreed with this view? — Michael

I'm playing along with your assertion that sex and gender are separate and showing your inconsistency in constantly going on about sex in a thread about gender.

The men's bathroom is exclusively for men and intersex people. Women's bathrooms are for women and intersex people. — Harry Hindu

Why?

Why not: the men's bathroom is exclusively for any biological man who identifies as a man, biological woman who identifies as a man, or intersex person who identifies as man and the women's bathroom is exclusively for any biological woman who identifies as a woman, biological man who identifies as a woman, or intersex person who identifies as a woman?

If it's not off-topic then sex and gender are one and the same. — Harry Hindu

I think the point trans activists were making was that gender and biological sex are not necessarily the same the thing. There's no reason we couldn't separate them. I think that's true, but there are no signs that the majority of the population is going to separate them. There's no amount of activism that can force them to do so.

Also, gender affirming care should absolutely not be provided to people below the age of 18. It should be made very clear to everyone that undergoing medical transition causes permanent infertility, and trans-women who undergo that kind of transition will never have another orgasm.

Why?

Why not: the men's bathroom is exclusively for any biological man who identifies as a man, biological woman who identifies as a man, or intersex person who identifies as man and the women's bathroom is exclusively for any biological woman who identifies as a woman, biological man who identifies as a woman, or intersex person who identifies as a woman? — Michael

You're not answering my question. Why do you group trans-people with people defined by their sex if sex and gender are separate things? You are making a category mistake.

I think the point trans activists were making was that gender and biological sex are not necessarily the same the thing. There's no reason we couldn't separate them. — frank

How are they not the same thing? What is the relationship between the two?

You're not answering my question. Why do you group trans-people with people defined by their sex if sex and gender are separate things? You are making a category mistake. — Harry Hindu

I'm addressing the relevant issue.

You say that an intersex person can use whichever bathroom they are most comfortable using. So why not allow a non-intersex person to use whichever bathroom they are most comfortable using?

And presumably you understand what it means for an intersex person to identify as male or identify as female (despite knowing that they are intersex). So why can't you understand this same thing happening for some of those who are not intersex?

How are they not the same thing? What is the relationship between the two? — Harry Hindu

Trans activists wanted to say that gender is about roles people play in society. A biological male can dress and behave in a typically feminine way. Therefore, people can transition if they want to.

Is that not clear to you?

I'm addressing the relevant issue.

You say that an intersex person can use whichever bathroom they are most comfortable using. Why not allow a non-intersex person to use whichever bathroom they are most comfortable using? — Michael

What I'm saying is that if gender and sex are not the same thing, the discussing intersex is off-topic.

If women's bathrooms are not exclusively for biological females, and vice versa for males, AND gender and sex are not the same, then your argument would allow animals (as species is separate from sex) to use the public restroom.

Trans activists wanted to say that gender is about roles people play in society. A biological male can dress and behave in a typically feminine way. Therefore, people can transition if they want to.

Is that not clear to you? — frank

Those roles are sexist, gender-based stereotypes. Is that not clear to you?