How many were actually killed?

Not at all. Just remember that it was South Africa that made the case against Israel of genocide against the Palestinians. That is why there's this large effort to tarnish the image of South Africa.

Yes, but this whole conspiracy has been cooked up because the oppressed people in an apartheid state are now in charge. Fuelled by people sympathetic to an other apartheid state.

They claim a genocide (falsely), while denying the other genocide, which is actually happening before our eyes.

Since 1994, approximately 4,000, or around 130 per year.

Since 1994, approximately 4,000, or around 130 per year. — BitconnectCarlos

Where did you find this info? I can't find it.

Here's one source from 2018:

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-8-2018-000476_EN.html

"In South Africa, white farmers have for years been exposed to an unprecedented wave of violence. Statistically, a farm is attacked every day in South Africa. South Africa has the world’s highest murder rate, but the murder rate among white South Africans is three times higher than the national average, while that of white farmers is six times higher. Often, the victims are tortured and ill-treated for hours before being killed.

Since the end of apartheid in 1994, up to 4 000 white farmers have been murdered. The police investigate these crimes only half-heartedly. The organisation ‘Genocide Watch’ warns of the threat of genocide.

Against the backdrop of continuing violence against white South Africans, 1 500 demonstrators protested in Pretoria in November 2017 and submitted a petition to the South African government."


Also, since 2004, the Boers have been keeping track of their dead through roadside memorials. That number is around 3,000 since 2004, so around 150 per year. The murders are unsolved 95% of the time.

It's concerning. It doesn't look very organized, though.

The homicide rate in S. Africa is 45 per 100,000. The homicide rate for whites specifically is 3.3 per 100,000.

The homicide rate for blacks in the Southeast during the 1950s was 45 per 100,000.

I don't think we could describe what's happening to whites in South Africa as a genocide. There's just a lot of violence, most of which does not affect whites.

SA doesn't sort homicide victims by race, so I don't think we're going to get objective statistics on this.

It's not just the murders. It's the fact that you have very influential and wealthy men/famous politicians leading genocidal chants like "kill the boer" in large stadiums, and land appropriations, among other things. There is an overt, large-scale glorification of racial violence coming from prominent figures.

I'm not claiming it's a full-blown genocide, but I'd agree that the situation is concerning.

[

I don't think we could describe what's happening to whites in South Africa as a genocide. There's just a lot of violence, most of which does not affect whites. — frank

Because the genocide angle is a right wing conspiracy theory and not real. As you say, it’s violence in general, and right wingers use the high crime rate and murder rates to construct the narrative of white genocide. It’s within the same basis as replacement theory; white supremacy bullshit. This is how a population gets radicalized, with narratives that the people are too lazy to look up actual data on and too uneducated to understand that data. So they start with “maybe there’s something to this” and then slowly shift in opinions.

:up:

white supremacy bullshit. — Christoffer

I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. Find out the facts first.

A quick history of racism in S Africa

The discussion is about SA, though, not Zimbabwe. I'm not sure why you're deflecting to Zimbabwe. — BitconnectCarlos

Because in Zimbabwe there has been actions against white farmers by the government. Even there one cannot make the case for genocide. South Africa has high crime rate. Farms are in rural areas, where law enforcement isn't as close as in the suburbs. That's the reason. If you assume there's a covert government operation of killing white people in South Africa, there's got to be a lot more of evidence.

(BBC, May 2025) None of South Africa's political parties - including those that represent Afrikaners and the white community in general - have claimed that there is a genocide in South Africa. But such claims have been circulating among right-wing groups for many years, and during his first term, Trump referred to the "large scale killing of farmers" in South Africa.

Some white farmers have been killed but a lot of misleading information has been circulated online. In February, a South African judge dismissed the idea of a genocide as "clearly imagined" and "not real", when ruling in an inheritance case involving a wealthy benefactor's donation to white supremacist group Boerelegioen.

South Africa does not release crime figures based on race but the latest figures revealed that 6,953 people were murdered in the country between October and December 2024. Of these, 12 were killed in farm attacks. Of the 12, one was a farmer, while five were farm dwellers and four were employees, who are likely to have been black.

This is just the nonsense ramblings of Trump. But seems to have hit a sweet spot among some.

Well, what would you think if you had stadiums of Israelis yelling "kill the Palestinian," led by major politicians? — BitconnectCarlos

BitconnectCarlos, they already do that!

(AP, june 5th 2024) JERUSALEM (AP) — Thousands of mostly ultranationalist Israelis took part in an annual march through a dense Palestinian neighborhood in Jerusalem’s Old City on Wednesday, with some stoking wartime tensions and chanting “Death to Arabs". - In past years, police have forcibly cleared Palestinians from the parade route, and large crowds of mostly ultranationalist youth have chanted “Death to Arabs,” “May your village burn” and other offensive slogans. The police say they are deploying 3,000 security personnel to ensure calm.” At the insistence of Israel’s far-right National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir, who oversees the police, the march will follow its traditional route, entering the Muslim Quarter of the Old City through Damascus Gate and ending at the Western Wall, the holiest place where Jews can pray.

So wtf are you talking about???

Do those ultranationalists represent all Jewish Israelis? No, but so doesn't some similar politician in South Africa who use hate speech.

What the South Africans do know when they see it is an apartheid system.

I agree. Yet the case of South Africa shows just how rare are politicians like Nelson Mandela and how easy it is for the populists to spread their hate in every country.

This is just the nonsense ramblings of Trump. But seems to have hit a sweet spot among some white nationalists and racists. — ssu

I fixed it for you.

I agree. Yet the case of South Africa shows just how rare are politicians like Nelson Mandela and how easy it is for the populists to spread their hate in every country thanks to social media rolling out mass propaganda for anyone willing to pay. — ssu

Fixed that too.

You gotta chill out a bit. Falling for some narrative doesn't make someone a racist.

A lot of nonsense narratives are floating about, often constructed deliberately to play on people's fears and emotions.

People hear something repeated a couple of times and stick with it, assuming it's true.

I'm sure we've all been guilty of that one way or another.

No, everybody needs to learn to stand up to racist bullshit by calling it out for what it is and calling those people who lap it up as gospel for the insane confirmation bias they carry around.

We have a poster who insists he doesn't see colour and has a whole shtick about the evils of affirmative action and whatnot but when it's whites allegedly being killed all of a sudden it's relevant they're white.

The other one defends Israeli-committed genocide round the clock and whines about a white genocide in SA that doesn't exist because what? He's tricked in being an asshole? Fuck that.

We have a poster who insists he doesn't see colour and has a whole shtick about the evils of affirmative action and whatnot but when it's whites allegedly being killed all of a sudden it's relevant they're white. — Benkei

If this is some sort of arch crime, I don't really get it.

With our unnamed genocide apologist I see where you're coming from.

It's racism when blacks benefit and therefore we should ignore colour and it's racism when whites are victims because they're white and colour is therefore relevant.

I will be the first to admit I've contradicted myself twice before breakfast but this is just ridiculous.

You're on a slippery slope when you call people racist based on an apparent bias. I don't think it's fair or accurate, but rather a type of knee-jerk reaction that isn't appropriate for this forum.

Trump says Putin ‘has gone absolutely CRAZY!’ “Missiles and drones are being shot into Cities in Ukraine, for no reason whatsoever,” Trump says.


So DJT seems suddenly to have become aware of the fact that Putin is groundlessly and indiscriminately firing missiles and drones and killing Ukrainian citizens - three years after the invasion started. I would say 'better late than never', but you don't know what he's going to say next.

There's ample evidence of it. What's inappropriate is leaving it uncontested and unnamed.

I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. Find out the facts first. — frank

But it is. The whole genocide of whites is part of the replacement conspiracy theory and it's being used in propaganda by white supremacists all over the world. What facts are you looking for? I don't think there's anything confusing about this. The attacks on farmers are part of a general problem in the area, but white supremacists reframe it to be a genocide that is partially backed up by the government, all of which is untrue.

The claim of a white genocide in South Africa has been promoted by right-wing groups in South Africa and the United States and is a frequent talking point among white nationalists.[6][7][8][9][10] There are no reliable figures that suggest that white farmers are at greater risk of being killed than the average South African. — Wikipedia

White supremacists have seized upon some of the farm-related violence in South Africa since the end of apartheid to peddle a propaganda campaign that exaggerates and distorts the situation to imply that South African whites are imperiled. They also insist that unless action is taken, whites in Europe and the United States will face the same sort of “genocide” at the hands of non-whites and immigrants. — ADL

AfriForum is not the only Afrikaner group which has lobbied in the US.

Another one is the far smaller and more extreme Suidlanders (Afrikaans for Southlanders), whose members Simon Roche and André Coetzee carried out a six-month visit to the US last year.

They met various far-right activists, including David Duke, the former Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan and Trump supporter, as well as other white supremacists and Nazi sympathisers, according to South African journalist Lloyd Gedye.

"This network has allowed the Suidlanders to spread its message of 'white genocide' around the world," he wrote in the Mail & Guardian newspaper.

This includes Australia, where several right-wing rallies have been held this year with protesters - many of them white South African migrants - holding up placards such as "Recognise the genocide" and "Stop the murders".

The message has resonated with Australia's former Home Affairs Minister Peter Dutton who said in March that he was looking at giving South Africa's white farmers access to fast-track visas because they were being "persecuted" and needed help from a "civilised" country.

This prompted outrage from the South African government.

Mr Fikeni told the BBC that international support for South Africa's white farmers was not surprising, and tied in with the votes for Brexit and Donald Trump, and the rise of right-wing parties across Europe.

"The anti-establishment is growing across the world, partly because of immigration pressures. There are those who feel local cultures are being invaded, who want whiteness to be maintained in its purest form," the political analyst said. — BBC

For all its consistent permacrisis of crime, corruption, and inequality, South Africa has not been rocked by the White supremacist terrorist violence we have seen in the Global North. But when stories of White genocide retain a hold on the imaginations of certain kinds of White people, already convinced of their unfair dispossession by a regime of “reverse racism” and raised in a febrile atmosphere that emphasizes traditional masculinity and gun ownership, then the ground is fertile for radicalization and for White supremacist thought and action to burst out of the comparatively small communities of Whiteness and onto the national stage, with potentially devastating consequences. — SFS

This conspiracy theory has been propagated by some fringe groups of white South Africans since the end of apartheid in 1994. It has been circulating in global far-right chat rooms for at least a decade, with the vocal support of Trump's ally, South African-born Elon Musk. — Reuters

What more facts are you after? What else do you need to understand where this thing is leaning? I'd argue that whenever someone claims genocide, there has to be significant evidence for it, not against it. Because such a claim is extraordinary, and as such needs extraordinary evidence.

If you accept this narrative at face value and ask for evidence against it, then you are essentially just falling for this narrative rather than putting the claim under scrutiny. That the white genocide in South Africa is connected to the great replacement theory is a known fact by researchers of right wing extremism globally.

So I don't know what else you need? How is that connection "jumping to conclusions" when it has far more support than the opposite claim.

BitconnectCarlos, they already do that! — ssu

I don't want to get sidetracked and turn this into another discussion about Israel. We've discussed Israel enough.

"Kill the Boer" is a prominent chant in SA that ties back to the country's liberation from apartheid. It is part of that nation's narrative of birth. It's not just a few extremists, but a veritable part of their cultural heritage, dating back to the liberation struggle. It was banned in 2010 but permitted in 2022 , so it's clearly something the country has struggled to reconcile.

Regardless of country, it is terrifying when you have prominent politicians (Malema's party controls 10% of Congress) in mass rallies glorifying the murder of another ethnic group, especially where there are pre-existing ethnic tensions. We should have learned this from Rwanda, where the language used played a key role in dehumanization.

There are already around 140 racist laws in South Africa that explicitly favor the black population. Then there are the land reforms/seizures, which target Boers. The Boer farmer population has declined precipitously (50%?) over the past few decades.

I'm not saying it's genocide yet, but I'm glad Trump is calling it out rather than just ignoring it entirely when their President visits. He's also confronted Starmer. If the shoe were on the other foot and whites were imposing racist laws and seizing land from blacks and screaming genocidal chants at mass rallies, the world would be all over it (and rightfully so). Yet double standards define our times. It is seen as fine when an "oppressed" or formerly oppressed group behaves oppressively, and the politically correct thing is to look the other way and not blame them. To assign blame or even express concern is racist, and two-tier judgments are the sign of a good and enlightened person.

White supremacists have seized upon some of the farm-related violence in South Africa since the end of apartheid to peddle a propaganda campaign that exaggerates and distorts the situation — ADL

The white supremacist replacement thing is at least 100 years old. It was part of the motive for the Jim Crow laws. There actually has been violence against white farmers in S Africa. Rage against whites is understandable there. There's no need to deny it.

There actually has been violence against white farmers in S Africa. Rage against whites is understandable there. There's no need to deny it. — frank

First, can you make a clear distinction between the general violence that also affects black people and that of violence based on racist motives? Second, if such a statistical difference is large enough, does it constitute genocide against white people?

By your logic, we should then call the higher level of violence against black people in the US to also be called a genocide. And seen as a lot of such violence in the US is also conducted by the police, you have an even worse situation of systemic racism causing the violence and deaths; it should then be called state sanctioned genocide of black people in the US.

That’s not a slippery slope, because you basically take the fact that white farmers have indeed been killed, but you ignore the general situation in the region and just repeat the white supremacy propaganda narrative that has been constructed around it. Why? And the comparison I did with the US also rests on a comparable situation that white people are being targeted more in South Africa than black people, which still isn't proven to be the case when looking at the actual statistics. So it's not really a comparable situation either; it actually makes even less of a case for white genocide happening since the situation statistically is worse for black people in the US.

So I don’t really understand how you use the fact of violence against white people, without any context to it (the actual statistics of violence in the area), and conclude genocide? That’s not proof, that’s a wildly skewed interpretation of the data, seemingly influenced by the conspiracy narratives that’s been spread around online rather than forming a conclusion based on evidence.

This is the problem with these online conspiracy narratives in society, they seem to burrow into people’s minds so hard that the basic way people engage with news and information is to first believe the narrative and then ask others to prove against it, rather than demand evidence of the narrative’s claims first and be skeptical.

Basically, being skeptical today seems to be about buying into a narrative first as some form of substitute for actual skepticism, claiming the belief in that narrative is the skepticism. Instead of what skepticism is about, questioning narratives and demand evidence first, demanding rational thinking rather than biased thinking.

I’ve not seen any evidence of white genocide, have you? On the contrary, I’ve seen more evidence against it and more evidence that the idea of it happening in South Africa is a construct of white supremacists spreading these ideas into right wing politics. It was basically formed out of the apartheid era, an echo promoted by those who lost power when apartheid ended.

A socialist and race-nationalist party in the SA government chants “Kill the boer! Kill the farmer” and those who question the racism and the possibility that it might be related to the brutal torture and murders of farmers, are racists, white nationalists, conspiracy theorists, or far-right. How is this possible?

While it is probably true that racists and the dreaded far-right have adopted the issue due to the purported colors of the skins of those involved, it should not mean all the racists on the left of them must drop the issue or otherwise impugn anyone who talks of it. This can only further racialize and muddy the issue.

Trump bringing it to light only exasperates it further. His loose use of the word “genocide” sends the symbolic mind on a quibbling rampage. When Trump thought the images of crosses were graves, not realizing it was a monument, the media took him to task for this small discrepancy without mentioning that each cross represented the grave of a murdered and possibly tortured person. The ages of the victims ranged from two to eighty-seven, but anti-Trumpism forces people to use even the most heartbreaking of imagery as a ghoulish cudgel against their folk devil.

Conspiracy theory or not, there are people who live in fear and feel racially persecuted, as is evident by the stories. Large political parties are chanting for their murder. Cases are rarely solved. Police are slow or are otherwise under-funded. One of the advocacy groups for these farmers argue that many of the attacks are particularly brutal, involving rape and torture, suggesting a level of hatred or barbarism beyond just the petty crime it is often claimed to be. The memoir of a friend to the current president wrote that Ramiphosa said the ANC’s 25-year pan for dealing with the whites “would be like boiling a frog alive, which is done by raising the temperature very slowly”. There are discrepancies between what people report, the data is old or missing or insufficient, and the government is corrupt or dysfunctional, leaving the “check the data” crowd looking really silly. All of this fosters fear, loss of trust, and propagates even more conspiracy theory.

On top of that crimes against members of other ethnicities across the country are met with even far less concern. Conditions for farm workers are often abysmal. Everyone, regardless of ethnicity, must fear crime and violence both in the cities and in rural areas, and any private owner of land is at risk having it expropriated for “the public interest”, or in other words, due to the whim of politicians.

All of these leads to only one conclusion, namely, the absolute failure of racist and collectivist governments in Africa, apartheid and beyond. Why they are defended is anyone’s guess.

https://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/safrica2/Safarms7.htm

https://www.hrw.org/news/2011/08/23/south-africa-farmworkers-dismal-dangerous-lives

https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/africa/southern-africa/south-africa/report-south-africa/

https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/2017/03/25/-bury-them-alive-white-south-africans-fear-for-their-future-as-horrific-farm-attacks-esc

https://africacheck.org/fact-checks/factsheets/factsheet-statistics-farm-attacks-and-murders-south-africa

https://www.artikels.afriforum.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Farm-attacks-and-murders-in-South-Africa-2023.pdf

"In his brutal honesty, Ramaphosa told me of the ANC's 25-year strategy to deal with the whites: it would be like boiling a frog alive, which is done by raising the temperature very slowly. Being cold-blooded, the frog does not notice the slow temperature increase, but if the temperature is raised suddenly, the frog will jump out of the water. He meant that the black majority would pass laws transferring wealth, land, and economic power from white to black slowly and incrementally, until the whites lost all they had gained in South Africa, but without taking too much from them at any given time to cause them to rebel or fight."

https://irr.org.za/media/articles-authored-by-the-institute/the-anc-and-ramaphosas-1994-plan-for-the-whites-politicsweb-17-september-2017

By your logic, we should then call the higher level of violence against black people in the US to also be called a genocide — Christoffer

I don't think there's a white genocide going on in S. Africa. I already said that. It's my experience with insidious violence that makes me just stop and listen when people are claiming that there's been race related violence.

I don't think you need to follow my lead, though. :razz:

Your boy seems a little unhinged:

"HAPPY MEMORIAL DAY TO ALL, INCLUDING THE SCUM THAT SPENT THE LAST FOUR YEARS TRYING TO DESTROY OUR COUNTRY THROUGH WARPED RADICAL LEFT MINDS, WHO ALLOWED 21,000,000 MILLION PEOPLE TO ILLEGALLY ENTER OUR COUNTRY, MANY OF THE BEING CRIMINALS AND THE MENTAO INSANE,THROUGH AN OPEN BORDER THAT ONLY AN INCOMPETENT PRESIDENT WOULD APPROVE, AND THROUGH JUDGES WHO ARE ON A MISSION TO KEEP MURDERERS, DRUG DEALERS, RAPISTS, GANG MEMBERS, AND RELEASED PRISONERS FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD, IN OUR COUNTRY SO THEY CAN ROB, MURDERERS, AND RAPE AGAIN, PROTECTED BY THESE USA HATING JUDGES WHO SUFFER FROM AN IDEOLOGY THAT IS SICK, AND VERY DANGEROUS FOR OUR COUNTRY. HOPEFULLY THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT, AND OTHER GOOD AND COMPASSIONATE JUDGES THROUGHOUT THE LAND, WILL SAVE US FROM THE DECISIONS OF THE MONSTERS WHO WANT OUR COUNTRY TO GO TO HELL."

Do you think the pressure might be getting to him?

Nope. Looks like he’s calling out your anti-American team on Memorial Day. I love that kind of stuff.