When that compass ceases to be effective at insuring such belonging, events lose what gives them their overarching coherence , salience and significance, and we drift though a fog of meaninglessness until we can reconstruct a new compass on the basis of which we can relate intimately with others. — Joshs

Recommendations for how to do this?

Recommendations for how to do this? — Tom Storm

Kelly provides various techniques that help us
1) loosen our failing schemes without abruptly abandoning them and leaving us in emotional chaos.
2) experiment with alternative schemes, trying them on for size. One way to do this is to take on a role, like an actor would. The technique is minimally threatening because the person can remind themselves that it is ‘only’ a role, and if it turns out not to useful they can abandon it.
3) Once a new scheme has been formed in a loose and sketchy way, one can begin to tighten it, testing it out in different real-life situations for consistency.

Hey fellow traveler.

I can certainly see why I'm attracted to the existentialists -- Camus' The Myth of Sisyphus has provided comfort in many circumstances for me when dealing with my feelings of depression in particularly harsh times.

I think most philosophers would prefer not to deal with such topics -- they'd push it towards the psychologists or therapists and such.

Now, if someone is asking for help, I think that's the right thing to do. I'm not prepared to help someone on that level.

But I actually find it therapeutic to reflect on my experiences with depression, or at least what has been diagnosed as such.

For instance, Matthew Ratcliffe has written extensively about depression from a vantage that draws from Sartre, Husserl and Heidegger as well as embodied cognitive theory. Ratcliffe discusses the personal accounts of depression of such writers as Sylvia Plath and William Styron. What he concluded from these accounts is that depression is not just about feelings of despair but the loss of the ability ton discern salience and relevance in the world. — Joshs

I'd be interested in reading those writings of his, if you'd spare a reference for the best place to start.

I'd be interested in reading those writings of his, if you'd spare a reference for the best place to start. — Moliere

Here are some places to start:

Depression, Guilt and Emotional Depth
https://philosophyofdepression.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/guiltpaperjune2010.pdf

Experiences of Depression

The Phenomenology of Depression and the Nature of Empathy
https://www.academia.edu/3649407/The_Phenomenology_of_Depression_and_the_Nature_of_Empathy

Thank you

experiment with alternative schemes, trying them on for size. One way to do this is to take on a role, like an actor would. The technique is minimally threatening because the person can remind themselves that it is ‘only’ a role, and if it turns out not to useful they can abandon it. — Joshs

I'm reminded of the cliché, that a change is as good as a holiday.

But let me explain that it is quite difficult to have motivation for (let's say) participating in the joy and happiness of others. I don't think this is a matter of envy or jealousy. It is just that a person under the spectrum of pessimism is hard to find joy beyond the way he sees the world. — javi2541997

Maybe this is where reading has a role to play. In the case of books, we get a very lucid description of the character, and the feelings, and this inclines the reader to develop a very special empathetic relation with the character. However, we ought to understand that this special connection between reader and character is artificial, created and designed by the author. The author uses descriptive terms which can easily draw the reader into a fantasy of knowing, and empathizing with, a person, but the person is not a real person.

You seem to be attracted to reading material which has negative content, stories with suffering. And you empathize with those characters. But this is not likely to be real suffering, it's a fictional description, produced by the author, so that you are actually empathizing with fictional suffering. We might say, and argue, that the author draws on real life experience, and represents some real instances of suffering, but the descriptive terms, which form the basis of your feelings of empathy, are words of the author's choice, chosen with the intent to draw you in. This is not how you actually perceive any real situation, it is a description created by the author. Therefore, it is not an empathy toward any real suffering, it is a creation of the author, designed to feed on your inclination toward sympathy. For example, you are younger than I am, but years ago we used to get UNICEF commercials on TV, where they would show children in horrible conditions of starvation. These pictures are designed to evoke feelings of sympathy, and encourage donations to the cause.

The reason why I suggested reading Plato, is that this is a person who tried very hard to describe human feelings and emotions objectively, to truly understand them. Because of this true approach to human feelings, we can learn from Plato that the good feelings are just as much, or even more, a real aspect of human existence as are the bad.

Don't you believe that happy people should be the ones who have to empathise with the rest? We are talking about putting some kind of responsibility on someone's shoulders. — javi2541997

What validates this proposal? Human beings have freedom of choice, to choose how to culture their feelings, so long as they are not hurting others. Why do you think that people ought to have a responsibility of empathizing with suffering? That's very counterintuitive. If suffering is harmful, unwanted, therefore bad, why should people have an obligation to partake of, or share in, the badness of others. It makes far more sense for the people who possess the good, joy and happiness, to share this with the less fortunate. And this in no way requires empathizing or sympathizing with the suffering. It just requires acknowledging the fact that those who suffer could enjoy some happiness, and this is something which a happy person such as myself could share with them.

It appears to me like campaigns such as the UNICEF one mentioned above, believe that the way to get people to share the goods with those less fortunate, is to make these people feel, through empathy or sympathy, the pain of the others. And from the effects of campaigns like this, people like you come to believe that you have a responsibility, or obligation, to feel the suffering of others. But this is not at all the case. Your responsibility is only to share your joy, pleasure, and happiness with the others, and this way we all get to feel the happiness. You have no obligation or responsibility to share in the suffering. The problem is that campaigns like the one mentioned, lead us to believe that people will not be inclined to share these goods unless they first feel the pain. In reality though, people are fundamentally reasonable, and naturally inclined toward all forms of human intercourse, and the shared pleasures of life, so there is no need for them to feel pain in order to deliver pleasure to others.

Since I was diagnosed with depression, I wanted to get a philosophical approach to why people suffer from this mental state; and on the other hand, if there is another way to get through it apart from medical drugs. — javi2541997

I suspect for some people doing philosophy causes or exacerbates (subclinical) 'depression', and so taking (short? long?) periodic breaks from philosophizing (i.e. reflective inquiry-practice) such as physically demanding hobbies (e.g. carpentry, fitness training, gardening, child/elder care, etc) might help ease the intensity (re: 'being depressed' is what persistent self-doubting feels like).

You seem to be attracted to reading material which has negative content, stories with suffering. And you empathize with those characters. But this is not likely to be real suffering, it's a fictional description, produced by the author, so that you are actually empathizing with fictional suffering. — Metaphysician Undercover

Sorry, but I disagree with you in that part. Trust me when I claim that the characters and plot shown in Dostoevsky's works are far from being 'fictional'. Furthermore, I believe that they are more real than I could have ever imagined. It is true that he was influenced by specific social and political contexts, but there are themes in his novels that can be applied nowadays.

As I remarked previously, Dostoevsky emphasises the death and suffering of children. There are two good examples of this. One is shown in Humiliated and Insulted where thirteen-year-old orphan Nellie suffers from an abusive household.The other is shown in The Eternal Husband where eight-year-old Liza dies of an illness I can't remember now. But what I can really remember is that Liza suffered from uncertainty because she was raised by an alcoholic that turned out to not be her biological father.

These works investigate the poor human condition of some youngsters, and while they may be deemed 'extreme', they are not fiction. Orphans exist. Children are unwell and can die. Fictional? Romantic novellas are my definition of fiction.

Sorry, but I disagree with you in that part. Trust me when I claim that the characters and plot shown in Dostoevsky's works are far from being 'fictional'. — javi2541997

I'm sorry, "fictional" was not the correct word to properly convey the meaning. Let me call it "narrative". The point is that the words, and form, of the author's narrative are intentionally chosen and designed for the purpose of creating those feelings. So you are not actually empathizing with those particular suffering children, by being in contact with them and understanding them, you are empathizing with that narrative which the author has created. This was the point of the UNICEF example. It's not that I believe those pictures of starving children are fictional, but they are portrayals (a narrative) designed to produce these emotions of sympathy.

Because of this mistake on my part, I request that you please reread the post and replace "fiction" with "narrative", as described above, and this will produce a better understanding of what I was trying to say.

I understand you now. Well, I believe I can approach what you want to mean. Nonetheless, I still remain in my position. I don't think Dostoevsky used his amazing talent to grasp the audience. Most of the plots of his novels are influenced by real-life experiences. For example, Notes from the House of the Dead is based on his experience when he was locked up in jail. I think that is where his amazing talent pops up. The art of showing the misery of their characters, but with the surprise that life can be even harder.

On the other hand, since his works are narrative and it’s supposed to capture our emotions, there should be a beginning and an end. Harry Potter is clearly narrative/fictional because it stimulates our way of dreaming and imagining. But this has an end. Magic only exists for a moment. Yet a starving child or an alcoholic abusive father exists when you close and open your eyes. Just randomly pick a novel of Dostoevsky. I promise every one of them would apply to real-life scenarios.

"I don't want to see the UNICEF pictures either." OK, it is understandable. But the starving child still exists, whether you want to accept it or not.

For this reason, I think that it is important to take into account some authors that help us to embrace pessimism or existentialism. I think it is a good take and another acceptable way of seeing the world.

Since I was diagnosed with depression ... — javi2541997

Have you considered the possibility that you are not depressed, but that rather it is that the world is a bit shit? I have to say you don't come over as depressed, but as quite lively and animated. Is it all an act?

One is supposed to be happy, and thus to be unhappy is an illness. But no; I say it is healthy to be unhappy about injustice and misery and suffering even if one is not oneself so badly off. Don't mistake compassion for sickness. Do not go to your local doctor because a child is starving a thousand miles away. There is no pill that you can take that will nourish that child.

Have you considered the possibility that you are not depressed, but that rather it is that the world is a bit shit? I have to say you don't come over as depressed, but as quite lively and animated. Is it all an act? — unenlightened

I've considered this many times before. There are times I don't show depression. There are even times I don't feel depression.

But the world remains the same either way.

What I've noticed is that though I see the bad things in the world and they weigh me down -- it's not those bad things which weigh me down. They are merely obvious because I'm prone to see bad things.

Bad things looked at too often weigh me down, of course.But even trying to not notice the various things going on the smallest thing will set me off on a misadventure that I can now identify, and through that identification, stop.

EDIT: Also, I've noticed that people who have depression often emote in a lively and animated way. But then, after having done the performance necessary for them, they return to a place where they can charge up to do it again.

"You're on Earth. There's no cure for that."
~Samuel Beckett, Endgame

I say it is healthy to be unhappy about injustice and misery and suffering even if one is not oneself so badly off. Don't mistake compassion for sickness. Do not go to your local doctor because a child is starving a thousand miles away. There is no pill that you can take that will nourish that child. — unenlightened

:fire:

Depression is evil. It is a sort of experience that you cannot explain to others who have never experienced it. Evil is a feature of reality; good is another feature. Good and evil are fundamental and necessary. Why a person experiences depression is the subject of discussion!

"You're on Earth. There's no cure for that."
~Samuel Beckett, Endgame — 180 Proof

Why do you think that humans cannot find peace? Why are they not wise enough to judge properly the situation, so everybody gets what they deserve?

I think the concept of depression, as pathologized, is utterly demeaning and ridiculous. People get sad. Big fucking whoop. Habit forming behaviour forms habits.

You have to work you mind like your body to avoid deterioration either intellectually or emotionally. This does not reject that depression comes from some chemical imbalance (though, the literature on this is sketchy at best and psychiatry is fucking disgusting and unethical most of the time) and that this is is indeed a condition one can be in. Just like being fat. It sucks, and sympathy is called for. But dealing with depression requires doing hard things you don't want to do. As does almost every worthwhile goal in life. Develop habits and discipline.

Now that that's out of hte way - I was diagnosed chronically depressed when I was 14. I was on heroin at the time. I then moved onto drinking when i quit opiates. I made six genuine attempts on my life during this time (14-about 19). The depression didn't go until i got my shit together and started doing good things for myself. Working out, eating well, forcing myself to socialize, not giving in to irrational and clearly fucking stupid thought patterns. I am not, in any way, saying this is easy. I am saying it is simple. It was this simple for me, and I do not know a single depressed person who has come out of it without doing the above. This says nothing but that this is my experience and in turn, my recommendation. Get out there and involve yourself in the good things in the world.

I think it is folly for the depressive to engage in activist causes which distract and further entrench depressive modes of thinking. Take care of yourself first. There seems to me two very general versions of depression: Narcissistic (most common) and nihilistic (externally fixated). Both can be fixed by engaging with the good as a matter of developing habits. As someone said, it is not exactly bad to feel sad about injustice(though, there is a good chance that if you are depressed you are mislabeling things you don't like as injustice - a rather standard intellectually habitual pitfall) but it is absolutely unhealthy and in fact destructive to focus on injustice over your own wellbeing. One need cultivate resilience, courage and conviction (along with flexibility, honesty and intellectual rigour) before approaching the world and its purported problems in my view.

If all else fails, there is extremely good evidence that structured, supported use of psychedelics is more effective than any known treatment for depression.

Why a person experiences depression is the subject of discussion! — MoK

Yes, I agree! But I would like to find out philosophy and ideas to face depression. I don't want to know why we experience depression in our lives. I already accepted that this comes and goes sooner or later. I believe it is key to try to live with this mental condition.

key to try to live with this mental condition. — javi2541997

Do you truly think this is key, and not trying to overcome it? Depression is clearly not intractable, so this seems an odd position is all.

But I would like to find out philosophy and ideas to face depression. I don't want to know why we experience depression in our lives. — javi2541997

Depression could be due to mental and physical abuse. For example, in my case, one of my boos stole my intellectual properties and published them in his name. This certainly was an abuse of power. I was under spiritual torture as well, which I think was just. We humans are unjust; certainly, we need to evolve further!

I already accepted that this comes and goes sooner or later. — javi2541997

Discussing your situation with a psychiatrist might be helpful.

I believe it is key to try to live with this mental condition. — javi2541997

I don't think so. A better mental state is the state of peace.

I don't want to know why we experience depression in our lives. I already accepted that this comes and goes sooner or later. I believe it is key to try to live with this mental condition. — javi2541997

Furthermore, I don't care about the why as much as I care about the "How do I deal with it?"

There are cases where people report no longer feeling that way, but there are also cases that are chronic.

Coming to accept that mine was a chronic condition helped me deal with it. I adopted the attitude of "Well... if it can be cured, then I have to do this or that, and if it cannot be cured, then at least this and that will help me deal with the feelings"

I don't think so. A better mental state is the state of peace. — MoK

Oh, sure. No one which suffers with mental issues would disagree with that, I think. That's rather the point of talking about it.

EDIT: Also, I've noticed that people who have depression often emote in a lively and animated way. But then, after having done the performance necessary for them, they return to a place where they can charge up to do it again. — Moliere

I've worked with many dozens of people experiencing chronic depression over the years. While everyone is different, it's clear that those who ignore the diagnosis and refuse to seek help often suffer the most and many do not survive. You're right, one can't pick the depressed person from their performance on a forum or even how they seem at work.

What have you found helpful? Has contact with others and activity helped or deepened the experince?

What have you found helpful? Has contact with others and activity helped or deepened the experince? — Tom Storm

Accepting my feelings was the most helpful thing for me. To give credence to @unenlightened -- if the 20 hour work week is established then I'm pretty sure I could cope with my disabilities without anyone knowing.

After that I'd say balancing alone-time with family-time with work, and medications, has brought me to a place where I can see myself well enough and be comfortable with myself well enough that I don't mind sharing with people who are going through the same thing.

I very much doubt there's a fixall. If I get to be scientistic, that's mostly because I think "depression" likely covers a lot of possible causes.

But even so -- it's a useful term for talking about how you feel.

I would like to find out philosophy and ideas to face depression. I don't want to know why we experience depression in our lives. I already accepted that this comes and goes sooner or later. I believe it is key to try to live with this mental condition

Let me put it this way. Do you consider it "normal" to experience depressive symptoms when addressing numerous events in one's life which are very "depressing" (in lay terms)? I do. What is evidence of an "illness" (as opposed to a natural reaction) is experiencing depressive symptoms in the absence of any significant negative experiences.

Sounds like you have a lot of insight.

I very much doubt there's a fixall. If I get to be scientistic, that's mostly because I think "depression" likely covers a lot of possible causes. — Moliere

Indeed.

I would like to find out philosophy and ideas to face depression. I don't want to know why we experience depression in our lives. I already accepted that this comes and goes sooner or later. I believe it is key to try to live with this mental condition. — javi2541997

One approach is to consider the language used to identify and describe unhappiness. At one time or another, many people experience fairly long periods of one or more 'states' that do not constitute disease: fearfulness, loneliness, frustration, grief, self-doubt, boredom, anxiety, uncertainty, scattered attention, sleeplessness, irritability, longing, anger, jealousy, etc. Usually these states (like fearfulness or anger) are short. States like loneliness or boredom may have longer duration.

These various states can be pretty unpleasant if they are intense enough, and if we feel too many of them too often. Sometimes people who experience a combo of these unpleasant states claim to be depressed. They may meet the diagnosis requirements, and they may be taking medication.

It might be the case, however, that what one is feeling isn't "depression" per se, but rather, troubled circumstances. One is in debt, say, and one fears losing one's car or housing. One might be chronically frustrated by transportation problems to and from work -- buses that don't arrive, waits that take too long, missed hours and negative consequences at work. Perhaps one's romantic interest has suddenly found somebody else very interesting and we feel intense jealousy (and/or fear of abandonment). And so on.

One or more of these states or situations may make us feel bad (maybe very bad). "Depression" is a handy box into which to place a mix of bad feelings that are sapping the joy of life, BUT it may not be depression. Rather it may be grief, anger, fear, frustration... -- whatever is on offer.

So, getting clarity on on what one is feeling, and what may be causing those feelings, is a rational step in dealing with our emotions.

Concluding that bad feelings are not actually depression doesn't mean one is fine. It just means that the solution may not be found on a therapist's couch or in a pill.

User Survey: On a scale of 1 - 10, with "1" being fabulous advice and "10" being a pile of shit, how would you rate this post in terms of helpfulness?

But the starving child still exists, whether you want to accept it or not. — javi2541997

Sure, but my point was that one does not need to empathize with, or share that person's suffering. The better approach is to share one's happiness with that person who suffers. And this requires only that you acknowledge that the suffering is real, not that you sympathize, empathize, or in any way share in that suffering in any way. You just need to take the necessary steps toward sharing your good fortune with the less fortunate, without yourself sharing in the suffering of the less fortunate.

I would like to find out philosophy and ideas to face depression.

I find the book of Ecclesiastes helpful. Good things and bad things will happen in life. As the gospel puts it (taking it out of context), "The rain falls on the just and the unjust alike." In other words, good things (and bad things) happen to both the deserving and the undeserving. It might help to bear in mind that the universe is NOT singling you out for bad treatment.

Of course, it is much easier to accept the unfairness of the universe just after one has received unearned benefits.

Sigmund Freud was not optimistic about people being happy. "Happiness" he said "is not in the cards." In a different context, opera star Beverly Sills was once asked if she was happy. "Let's just say I'm cheerful." Being "cheerful" amidst life's various bad experiences is perhaps more achievable than being "happy".

Is there some uniquely ideal philosophical approach for dealing with the bad stuff, like depression?

Happy philosophers are all alike, whoever they are; unhappy philosophers are all different.

I think you have to find what works for you. Maybe stoicism? Maybe pragmatism? Schopenhauer? Your favorite comic? I find Woody Allen helpful.

One cliche that has some truth to it is "If you're walking through hell, keep going."

In other words, don't dwell on the bad stuff. Look forward toward something good. And keep moving.

User Survey: On a scale of 1 - 10, with "1" being fabulous advice and "10" being a pile of shit, how would you rate this post in terms of helpfulness?

Why do you think that humans cannot find peace? Why are they not wise enough to judge properly the situation, so everybody gets what they deserve? — MoK

I suppose it's because we humans are more beasts than angels – human, all too human. Besides, the player never "deserves" the hand s/he's dealt ...

Your experience is a perfect example of what I argued on this thread. Your intellectual property was stolen by another person, and it was published with his name instead of yours. You could hire a lawyer and send him a lawsuit. But we the humans also have a soul, and we suffer from what we experience. It is not "Bah. Nothing really matters. Time would help me to overcome this and bla bla."

The human condition is miserable and horrible. In most cases, it is only showing the worst part of all of us. Now, you can't say to me to only focus on the nice aspects of life or contemplate a gorgeous garden. I was talking about children suffering, but you also brought another good example. People are greedy. They steal things from others. Didn't you ever ask yourself why that happened in the first place? If I were you, I would have lost confidence in people.

I don't think a psychiatrist can help us in that way. Do you know why? Because the malice of some folks is incomprehensible. And what do you expect to do? To go to a doctor with the aim of convincing me to better focus on the beautiful side of life and leave behind the negative aspects? Sure, I can go to a garden and contemplate the gorgeous flowers, but your intellectual property was stolen, and a child is suffering abuse somewhere.