good example there, but...
if morals are not objective (same for all humans in regard to all living and the planet) then murder is okey sometimes? And if and when it is okey we will not be bothered by our conscience and we would not be bothered if someone did to us what we just did to them?

So intersubjetivo?

In this way actually reason and luck play an interesting double role. also reason is seen as a way to escape Ananke, to 'shape one's destiny'. Reason was actually man's destiny according to Aristotle, the source of its actualisation. Machiavelli thought that by using reason you could play with fate and jump from one thread of fate to another, keeping some sort of control. The difference between reason and luck is that one (reason) believes in self efficacy, the possibility of control and the other (luck) believes that one's destiny depends on outside intervention. This reason, the ability of control, or agency, is currently in twilight. Not that I think it should be though. The casino is the refuge for the unreasonable, both the man of reason and the man of luck shoot for the stars, but they believe in different weapons. — Tobias

Very interesting! When we view world wars and events there - these contain both these elements - seemingly. But when you follow that thread you will always find someone doing something that will spark something else - so rather than luck or chance it is the human will I would say that initiate and gives the situations its content or opportunity.

thank you for you long and very well thought post - and I do agree in parts but... just because we can state:

Because self-reflection and the way human psychology works make us prone to depression in entirely more complex ways than them. That things are without a goal isn't something we imagine, it's what is the most logical observation of our existence, it's a hypothesis that is the most likely because there's no evidence for there being any further meaning. Any kind of applied meaningfulness that isn't an invented meaning by us (like, the pleasure of eating ice cream during a warm day) and rather a meaning that we invent as being cosmic and outside of ourselves, is the imagination, the delusion — Christoffer

Does still not make us understand why we have this sort of self-reflection --- what is if for? Giving us depressions? Seems very un-useful to me.
Why have we developed this faculty and this feature?

ah, finally... well now.
No evidence found?
Am not so sure about this because what I found after having read and tried to understand the issue is that the development in the ex christian countries are all towards personal freedom and democracy, freedom of religion, freedom of speech and thoughts and opinion (in public) and the Christian thoughts were from the beginning: Freedom. That is smack in the center of this particular religion.
You can check that out and you will find it.
This in turn - when humans from all cultures and countries (in the beginning most women and slaves) saw their opportunity they took it and this movement grew as a grassroots movement until it took over governments and rulers. And so the laws changed. And the minds of people changed.

You will find the evidence of this when you make an honest comparison with the worlds where Islam has been and is still operative - government, personal freedom etc. Or countries where hinduism or buddismen have been operative.
The effects of the beliefs human have had have in fact formed the societies they have been active in.

Why?
Well what you think is how you will act and what you do is what later will become the result of what you where taught to believe and hold true.
Right?

a rat?
:smile:
that's not me
its only because it is dark

Now at this point in the thread I would like to disagree with Fool and Proof (foolproof?) - in some details.

The list Fool provided does not at all state the fact of chance at all. All humans there mentioned were in fact focused on gettin and searching for what they in the end found - when you search you WILL find. Now what you find may not always be what you expected - but if it would have been completely by chance then the person would not even have been looking for something within the - realm - of what ever they found in the end.
The concept of stochastic variable (chance or luck) does in fact exist - but not the way we use the concepts we normally call chance or luck - because you cannot have the luck if you do not go to the casino and bet there... now can you?

And Feyerabned did not say what Twain said - but he said that when what we find does not fit with what we expected within science then we should have ad hoc theories to explain what we found - such idea was against the thoughts of Popper who did not permit such theories...
Anyways - I was determined not to stumble into the details where threads normally go - but hold on to the initial ideas conveyed --- and I will do so.

you cannot be the black cat because that is me

Absolutely objective as it is bound by the laws of reason and logic (for those in possession of such :smile: )

well now - before TV and all the stars and stuff and all we SEE and that enters our eyes - as still is the case in countries where people on the countryside have no time to bother about their nose being to small or big or if their breasts are attractive on the flesh market --- you will find that without psychotherapy and the lot they do no have no problem accepting themselves as they are...
funny is it not?
strange... that there are people out there unaffected of the endless exterior "perfection" looking like porn stars mostly...
:rofl:
I know - I am cruel as is reality...

I would not be so fast in categorizing ...neither myself or you but maybe you never understood the thrill of understanding the author of modern thoughts and thus the stars above and the laws inside.
I did...

I believe that cosmetic surgery - when not done for someone who has been in an accident or was born with a defect that is really tremendous and help them - is just a way to think you will become more attractive on a market where your body is the main attraction.
This is what I perceive of the world and it has become insane.

I would rather think that teaching humans to accept themselves as they are is a better option than to lure them into believing "if you only get this or that - THEN you will be happy"... what is happiness when it is endlessly fleeing and we need more and more of that poison?

I am at awe in this thread!!!
And I must admit that when reading the posts of proof and also the rest given here - I do not know even what to add.
I find myself speechless (oh, when did that EVER happen??) because of the notions, the threads given - the inputs --- I cannot really do other than to second these and...
What should I add more than: -----------

must really reflect on this, and then, when I come back someone else has written something more that gave me something more to think about.
I feel home here.
Anyone have a couch for me?
:love:

you are straight on it. All the operations for other noses, for other bodies, for plastic breasts and whatnot - "enhancing" oneself to become a copy of someone else is insane.

so I understand (correct me if I am wrong here) that Darwin lost his own image of who his own god was?
Or are you saying that Darwin actually knew God directly and better than those that do believe in God (learned jews and Jesus) who said: no one knows God?

If I would say: have always want to become - transform into Immanuel Kant and have his brains and if I wish hard enough and they give me some drugs and everyone says I am - then and only then I will be even if I will never be?

I find this sort of wishful thinking very hurtful for the person who is in the middle of it and lives - for real - as if the protagonist of the emperor's New Clothes.
The cruelty of society, the mockery and the jokes and these poor creatures who want something that physically - at the core of what we are and can be - is deeply hurtful.
I suffer this charade and this insanity. Because I do think that humans believe in this and this is real for them.

The heartlessness is astounding when we do not say: you are who you were born to be according to your DNA and the chromosomes that are in every cell of your body regardless of your wish and the apparent appearance of something else - and you will know, and that knowledge, of your own core being in spite of the exterior, will make you miserable.
Not even I can stomach doing it.

But I hope that those within this bubble will find their way out and understand that biology is not as we sometimes wish for.

Where is the logic of atheism --- anyone?

second that...

But...

haha... well, that would be that "knowing" it is a tree is because you were told so. The dog sittning next to you - watching the same object does not have a clue where he will pee to mark his revir ... now does he?!
:blush:

well now... am a philosopher ... are you not? :rofl:
And as such you must always follow all thread out there and see where they lead you. And thus you must give voice to what you found.
For me the horizon of God is intriguing so I have studied the Quran, books from Dala Lama, the Bible, listen to sages in judaism and I simply do not rule them out as ways to find the core of the Ultimate Good - and science is our way of handling and understanding what surrounds us.
I came into this earth hungry to understand - and that gives me more questions even if I also have a stand where I part.
But know?
hmmmmm --- this Journey is one that gives more questions than answers and I always doubt persons that think they have them all - including my old good self...

And I will second all the answers above and cite Kant in an free interpretation of his saying in Prolegomena: we use logic (within philosophy) to enable us to take apart all things and examine them to the core, then we reach new conclusions as we go along (synthesis) on the basis of not intuitive connections that bring new insights.

We are able thus to introspection and while we are doing the above in regard to what surrounds us in the universe - come to know our own being from the "outside" because while we are examining all we also discover our own mind at work... and thus we can have theories in regard to that as well.

That is the core of philosophy according to Kant - and I do second that as well as the notions given above from other forum participants ...

I will sum up what I have go out of the answers up until now:
if the life of mankind is just a joke of meaningless endlessness of doing what enters the eyes and our mouth (nature)- why are we not still apes - they are much better adapted to just - being (the core of most religion = learn just to be in the fleeing now) and why do we have this endless search for meaning when it is meaningless? And what goal is there if there is no goal given that humans seem to need goals.
The scientific method preconceives of what we know, and what we know is preconceived in what we have learned in regard to ourselves and the universe - and how to understand it. Who comes out of that circle?

but knowing - really knowing science - does not sway people? Why would that be - do you have a theory? I myself have spent - at the uni of Lund - from 2002 until 2008 in studies of metaphysics, logic and epistemology and semantics and ethics - so... you have the millon dollar answer? Give it to me... because the studies of the thoughts that underpin science, the scientific method and the rest of the shabang only begged more questions as to what we perceive - given the preconceived views on reality - as reality ---- in my humble case.
I do not state I know all and thus I can rule out something --- as the rest of humans regardless they are godbesivers of some sort or not.
Give me what science at the core has that I have not studied and found circular - and I will give you right.

well now - does Goole give my your mindset on that concept? Or why do you mean I do not know the meaning I give that very concept should not be different as yours or the definition of google? You see my point?

so if humans (I have posed this question before in this thread) convert to religion when secuarlism has all the answers - what are they after? When they have everything and loose all just because they start believing?
Tell me if you know the answer...

why ask me - I live in a land of prosperity and with a free healthcare system :rofl:

- yes but the difference is that many of these muslims (listen to them) had dreams about Jesus... before they converted or started looking...and as far as I know christians or secular people or who ever who reads about something that they find fascinating and go for it cannot be compared with the muslims - because they are under death penalty for converting. According to Islam they should all be killed.

So I do understand that atheism seems to be logical - when and if you only (as did the logical positives think and they failed to prove their point ...) believe in what you are able to take in with your senses.
But the world of the invisible is larger for us than the world of visible - because all our feelings and thoughts and such are - invisible... and we make them real. We talk about them we show them and we actualize them...

so a believer that is poor and sick still has purpose?

I forgot the muslim + Jesus --- look here are loads of these: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=muslim+convert+to+christian

oh, so God is then when you loose you health and wealth - the crutch?
:wink:

as I said - from the Greeks and in all philosophy God is a mayor question and has been and will be - because we simply do not know! No one does. Listen to humans involved in this like the jews - they all say (their sages: no one knows God) and also it is written in the Bible that Jesus said No one knows God... so it is. No one knows God.

So it is like a sort of horizon we are trying to catch but will not be able - and this keeps us open.
I took the case with the Black Holes - they kept on looking even if no one had seen one - and it made them discover lots of things they otherwise would not have looked for.
That is good... but if our lives anyway are useless and meaningless - why knowledge? It does then all not serve any purpose either - other than technology? Right...
What is then the meaning of all if we do not stay open?
The logic of (this is the theme of this thread as I understand it) atheism is to close that horizon and say it just does not exist and as Dawkins said: now we do not have to worry... about what?
For me it seems illogical to close doors you have not even opened... or you tried to open but your rationality did not cope with them - and thus you let your LIMITS rule you?
Why?
Does not make sense to me.

hear hear... second that...

wow... what a post! That opening post just blew me away!!! I must reflect on it - because my spontaneous and direct answer would then probably not do it justice --- have to read it and ponder it.
Will be back though...

why would humans end up in the gutter just because their lives are meaningless and they fill them with what they know and want?

What do you mean - define - spirituality... what is that!

maybe rather the latter... because we simply DO NOT KNOW... now do we. When reading philosophy God is a huge issue... the million dollar question - and is and will be.
But (as I already suggested in another post in this thread) humans seem to experience God - have done and still do.
And when you see their accounts on what and who - they more or less come down on one identified jewish person: Jesus. Are they all delusional and even when and if they did not ask for it - being they were muslims or jews - or secular or atheist (have seen loads of these testimonies on youtube or are they saying - WHAT?
These testimonies do beg a question: if they are true then what?

what an interesting post you just wrote!
But - if everything is (because we can imagine it to so) without goal and without any sort of meaning, and all is just due to a stochastic variable - why did we not stay apes? They do actually walk on two legs but do still not have (nor do ravens - the smartest bird (animal) alive) the capacity of abstract thought and written language what will enable them to give their knowledge to their offsprings - and they cope and live in reality - MUCH BETTER than we humans do.

So why this joke (humans are a joke in this world being meaningless and giving in to what ever they see and want anyways) that is destroying the planet with our lust for all we see and can possess?

I believe that humans are simplistic - and we cannot do other that that. Because we have been taught a certain way of interpreting our selves, this life and all that surround us - and we do have a necessity to find some comfort in the strong beliefs on - something. Being true...the god of sciences is now in vogue and technology the altar everyone bows down to.
Our own superficial being and what we can gain the short time here is our goal. Sadly.

What is a human? Well now, we have the narratives from Mr Darwin to guide us - don't we... or we are guided by the narratives of Mr Marx or Mr Locke on how to live together, or we are guided by some mans thought on something we hold true.
Don't we...
I believe we do not know everything - but that the notion of believing that we do know everything gives us this security we need to exist in a world that is unpredictable and difficult to navigate in.
And we do navigate.

Riksgälden is the institution that keeps the external governmental debts ... so you then have some experience from the "most secular country in the world" - that is us.