For instance, it may be enough for the agent to consider questions like, how would I want to be treated if I were a bug; or, what would it be like for me to be treated thus if I were a bug? To extend the reasoning I offered above: If you happen to suppose bugs aren't sentient, then you might conclude it wouldn't "be like" anything for you to be treated any way whatsoever if you were a bug; or if you suppose bugs are only "marginally sentient", there may be room for you to infer or expect that if you were a bug you wouldn't be capable of having a significant objection to having the life swiftly crushed out of you. — Cabbage Farmer
I appreciate your interpretation, but what leads you to believe my agenda sprouts out of sadism?Precisely, Hitler's agenda sprouted out of malice, whereas yours appears to sprout out of sadism. If I have to weigh them on the "evil" scale, sadism would far outweigh hatred.
Now, my point regarding ants was to suggest that they do in fact, feel irritation as you squish them for your entertainment. — TheSoundConspirator
Is it justifiable to kill and cruelly torture other species to gain momentary pleasure and enhance our "educational standards"? Frankly speaking, I'd go as far as to conclude that Mussolini and Hitler's agendas were purer than yours. — TheSoundConspirator
From a bug's eye view: Would I like to be stepped on with an adidas rip-off housing a malodorous foot? — TheMadFool
It might, however, be a sign of something that will cause you problems. You may or may not notice those problems. Even if, let's assume for argument, empathy for insects is misplaced, you might have a more general empathy deficit which will after your other relationships. — Bylaw
Exactly. I think the Golden Rule - do unto others as you would like others to do unto you - or it's negative formulation - do not do unto others what you wouldn't want others to do unto you - is key/germane to the morality of bug squishing.
The reason why we don't apply the Golden rule to bug stomping is because they seem incapable of using the tit-for-tat strategy that has a major role vis-à-vis the golden rule but the winds of change do blow and with odd results :point: Agent Kay Squishing Bugs In MIB — TheMadFool
Is it justifiable to kill and cruelly torture other species to gain momentary pleasure and enhance our "educational standards"? Frankly speaking, I'd go as far as to conclude that Mussolini and Hitler's agendas were purer than yours. — TheSoundConspirator
Why are such intelligent beings so oblivious to danger then? There have been occasions where I'll stand over an antmound and hover my foot a few inches above it threateningly, and they don't appear to react or evade it.Ants form complex social colonies and show spectacular signs of intelligence. They feel pain as well, physical irritation as they are being squished. — TheSoundConspirator
What makes human beings the sole authority on pain? Animals feel pain just as much as we do and yet we don't value that. — TheSoundConspirator
Animals kill each other only when necessary and to survive, they do it without any further emotions regarding betrayal, happiness, partiality, pride or sadism. — TheSoundConspirator
It's an interesting allegorical comparison... but my suspicion is they just meant toxic if ingested, inhaled, or exposed to skin. :razz:Moreover, did you notice?, bug sprays are labelled, "POISON" - what kills them kills us too. I wonder what that means? — TheMadFool
If it's ok to step on and snuff out bugs, is it ok if giants step on and snuff us (humans) out? — TheMadFool
Well first of all, bugs experience pain. You might only half hurt them, and then they could be doomed to walk around for some time with chronic pain and then die. — Tanner Lloyd
Superior is an arbitrary term and I don't really see it in those terms. However, why shouldn't I look down on ants? I'm literally a giant compared to them.It seems like OP is amazed more so at the influential idea that humans are not superior to all other species. Why should this idea amaze you? We're not superior to any other species. If you look systematically at all the wonders of what other species are able to achieve this should be obvious to you. Let David Attenborough's voice guide you through the amazing lives of other species in one of his documentaries. There is nobility in other species. There is spirituality. There is culture, even civilization (such as in the case of some ants), to admire. — Tanner Lloyd
Do you dislike seeing someone step on bugs? Do you see it as worse than recreational fishing? — bert1
That solution extends naturally to killing people who are, let's just say, problematic for you. Don't you agree? After all, in both cases we sanction killing or, more accurately, it's ok to off something/someone to deal with a problem — TheMadFool
Too, ecologically speaking, bugs are considered as essential components of the natural order, key to the health of the ecosystem - exterminating them, yourfoot in chemical and other forms, might come back to bite us. — TheMadFool
They apparently live in India and I'm certain I'd be unwelcome among them. Still, I wonder about their philosophy's applications. Those guys use brooms to sweep away insects in their path. It's one thing for them to be uncomfortable with injuring or killing any living being, but I wonder what (if any) intervention they prescribe when witnessing someone else doing it. Do they intervene to stop violence or do they stop at simply observing it with frowns on their faces?Jains believe that life (which equals soul) is sacred regardless of faith, caste, race, or even species. Do not injure, abuse, oppress, enslave, insult, torment, torture or kill any creature or living being.
I guess I admire this philosophy although I do not live it. The needless taking of life does seem to be undesirable. I like many others probably look at the level of imputed sentience or ability to suffer when judging such acts. — prothero
Não li seu texto inteiro, mas acho que se eu estivesse em uma situação onde vários insetos invadissem minha casa eu provavelmente iria morar na rua invés de chamar a detenção.
Using google translate, portugese: "I haven't read your entire text, but I think if I were in a situation where several insects invaded my house I would probably live on the street instead of that prison." — TheMadFool
Do you mean to say that ants perceive me as a faceless Cthulu-like titan? Cool. :grin:That movie, Antz, was sort of chilling to watch when I was a kid. Especially the part where the kid was trying to crush the ants. I remember being quite stricken by the fact that at least in the movie they were sentient... they were basically people. — KarpalTunnel
and without your manufactured, malodorous footwear. — KarpalTunnel
What's so foreign to them about a shoe though? Their world is full of large objects and surfaces.Yeah, most likely it will seem too foreign for them to see as a danger or not.Well, any object coming to squish a fly will make it jet off. Most insects will scurry off with slow moving objects coming on to them. Their locomotion can let them down with fast moving objects. I mentioned the slow-motion thing, if it's true, these small creatures see the threat coming and so some won't move, thinking this object will stop and move on (like a bird might), or try to move but are too slow. Whether we know for sure they know this incoming danger with them being still, it's hard to say. If you hovered an object over them for longer when they are still to see if they think; "screw this, I'm going to make a run for it." ,and then they react, would be a sign they knew it was a threat and ran off or with enough time they realised it is weird and run off. — Wetsocks68
Spiders can often sit still around danger if they feel they can't out run a threat or feel invisible with their background, they sit still and hope to blend in with the environment to not be spotted and killed. — Wetsocks68
Ants probably detect the incoming danger in slow-motion like the fly can but simply can't speed off as fast as a fly can, into three dimensional space. Even if this research wasn't correct, ants are hell of a lot slower than a fly and flies have three dimensional space to rapidly take advantage of. — Wetsocks68
Ok, I see your sentiment.
The other thing is, if you don't get them, find them weird, or find it odd the things they do. Then they could think the same for us, with us being wildly different to them.
I admit, it's hard to get used to. The thought of a cave centipede crawling over me at night to my awareness. Is a very hard one to accept with me not freaking out. But I also think it would be a bit weird to be super calm with it.
Well it would also be freaky if your friend stood at your bed whilst you slept. So I think the odds are, I don't think the cave centipede wants to be near us or on us either. But my god if it happened to be on me at night, I would just have to jump out bed and run or flap, freak out, I would still try not to kill it though. — Wetsocks68
Sport" is, in my opinion, inconsiderate. Someone who is inconsiderate is not as culpable as someone who is mean, sadistic or evil. But they are more culpable than someone who is absent minded, afraid or spontaneously reacting without thought.
I try to think before I act. I take spiders outside because I'm considerate of their life, and because they perform life in their sphere. But I will kill an elk when I hunt. — James Riley
The spider doesn't know it is entering a building that doesn't want it. It just sees a gap it can fit under, under the door and goes through it. The bees that get stuck in a house actually wants to leave the house as in all cases of bees in my house. Of course they do, there's nothing in the house for them. They get stuck confused by the windows. Even common wasps in spring and summer want to make a quick exit but get confused by the windows. Only in late summer/autumn do common wasps increasingly hone in on artificial human sweet food/drinks as they face natural food scarcity at that time of the year. Indeed they'll go crazy to get that then rare fix. — Wetsocks68
You're basically dishing out the highest human judicial punishment to insects that more than likely are going about its harmless activities. If a spider had to die for looking creepy then that's very sad and wrong.
Given the time spiders aren't creepy and can even be cute.
Due to their rapid and inconspicuous nature, humans rarely get to make a good acquaintance with their features and behaviour. There's no hope of any acquittance if it meets a shoe every time though.
Have a look at tarantulas, start with them. I know a friend who is scared of spiders but can handle tarantulas.
So in short, we have sport fishermen who don't go out to kill fish. Fish that definitely don't die every time they're caught. Compared with insects being instantly killed upon mere presence and proximity to the person, all the time? With zero hope of the targeted insects living to see another day, unlike the targeted fish which has a higher chance to see another day.
Furthermore, smashing bugs seems immature and childishly destructive, as opposed to fishing, which is seen as an actual, constructive hobby.
Furthermore, smashing bugs seems immature and childishly destructive, as opposed to fishing, which is seen as an actual, constructive hobby.
Now, of course, there's cruelty toward fish in sport fishing, but those that do engage in sport fishing don't do so with willfully cruel intentions toward the fish (as is often ascribed to those who step on bugs for the fun of it, rather than for reasons such as you've ascribed). Reminds me of Cobain lyric taken out of context, "It's OK to eat fish, because fish don't have any feelings."
Whether this would be frowned upon or not I still think would be dependent on what we take the participants' intentions to be in partaking in the sport. If we find they do it for the pleasure of cruelty, then frowned upon (by those who don't value cruelty). If we appraise that they don't, then we may think them ignorant and so on, but we don't hold the same type of aversion to the participants.
No?