Hehe, I know.

I'm due an icepick, aren't I? :cry:

And I'm the nutjob? — StreetlightX

I think you know I don't think you're a nutjob. And it's not about what I think anyway, it's about what can and can't be done in a hostile political environment. My disagreement is not fundamentally with your principles but with your approach.

Christ on a bike.

insofar as it's possible — Baden

And your "strategy" is just to keep repeating like a broken record how shit everything is. As if we didn't know...

:point:

We're trying like hell. :mask: On the ground here in Atlanta, in the midst of the pandemic, the struggle to keep all potential Democratic-leaning voters mobilized & engaged goes on. Like so many of others, my neighbors and out-of-state comrades, I'm giving whatever I have left to that end; and though confident now, I'm not optimistic yet. — 180 Proof

:strong:

As for this much vaunted 'smarter approach' - which boils down to what? Giving the status quo a chance? The poor thing, it's only been at work for the last 5 decades, I'm sure it really needs it - it's the same ineffectual gently-gently nothingness that got the US to where it is now. — StreetlightX

This shouldn't need to be said but to emphasize, no, it's not about giving him a pass, it's about using him insofar as it's possible in a strategic way. That means engagement. Giving him a pass would be something like ranting about how everything is fucked and he's evil, and so giving him the opportunity of painting the left as a bunch of extremist nutjobs who he should ignore. The reality is the diametric opposite of the way you're painting it. Essentially, you're the smartest guy in the room with the worst attitude.

I was critical of Biden before and now that's he poised to continue doing the very things I'd criticized him before on, I'm supposed to get a new line because, what, it's very tiring for you? — StreetlightX

What you're doing is not criticism, it's venting. Biden is President-elect and all anyone on the left should care about now is what they can get him to do for the left. Period. I couldn't give two fucks whether he's evil or not at this point, I want to make it politically expedient for him to do what serves the interests of the politics I support. And if you think calling for his transition picks' disembowelling (or whatever) with the Senate still up for grabs is "criticism" in any meaningful sense then, yes, you do need to get a new line because that's not going to help the people on the ground who are going to have to live under this administration and a potential McConnell stranglehold in the Senate.



What I've written above before I saw your reply serves as mostly an adequate response to what you've added. My only other question is, given we are where we are, what exactly do you want? And what's the path there? Seems to me like you don't have an answer to that. That's my major issue.

Btw, it should be obvious from the above that I've changed my view somewhat from the position I took around the time of the primaries. I've changed it because I've been observing and learning. I suggest you do the same.

I can't disagree more. First, worrying about a 'shift on the right' when the right in the US is basically Nazi apologetics is simply not a concern anyone should take seriously. North of the north pole is nothing. Second, the narrative being pushed - and which I'm afraid that you're uncritically reproducing - that left-wing policy and candidates have no political viability is quite frankly empirically false. — StreetlightX

Don't have much time but speaking of uncritical, just to quickly deal with this strawman.

Here's what I said:

The reality is that the structure of the electoral college and the Senate means any shift left in the Dems will result in a concomitant shift right that will blow up any hope of even milquetoast European style social democratic politics there in the foreseeable future. — Baden

You left out the important context in your reply.

And you demonstrate this by presenting data on a bunch of House races. This is where you are not paying attention, again. The Senate and the electoral college are set up in such a way that disadvantages the left. So, when you move left in areas that can result in local gains in liberal areas, you risk the Senate and you risk the electoral college. And I think you know this, so I'm not going to go into detail on it unless you insist on pressing the fantasy that somehow a big heave-ho left would be uniformly politically advantageous. And no, it doesn't matter that left-wing policies are actually popular with the general public because the general public does not decide who runs the country, a small group of voters in states with outsize representation in the Senate and the electoral college do.

So, where the left goes wrong and your gung-ho hang-the-bastards shtick is a good example of this (and is something I've been guilty of myself), is being crap tactically, acting like because we have the moral high ground, somehow we'll win. Sorry, but that's kindergarten-level politics.

Moreover, it is blindingly obvious to anyone that it was precisely the strategy to 'stick to the centre' that resulted in Biden's frankly dismal showing. The fact is that he barely eeked out a win over one of the most abhorrent political leaders in US electoral history, and did so only on account - as you noted - that he wasn't Trump. — StreetlightX

Dude, have you forgotten what got us here? Have you forgotten how Bernie got destroyed vs Biden in just the places he needed to win to swing the election? Have you forgotten how unpopular he was with voters in swing states that helped Biden scrape through in the general? Do you seriously think Bernie would have won Georgia, for example, when the southern black vote went overwhelmingly for Biden in the primaries? And the Senate? Again, the competitive races are in relatively conservative states. It's arguable that Bernie may have done better with the House and may also have won the popular vote, but the Dems have the House anyway and the popular vote doesn't mean shit. Also, I've mentioned the demographics, Bernie voters held their nose and voted for Biden, but moderate suburbanites in conservative-leaning states like Georgia and Wisconsin, who could easily have been scared off Bernie showed up for Biden. These are the folks for whom left-wing slogans like "defund the police" are anathema. And their support is the reason Biden who, according to you, had a "dismal" showing won 10 million more votes than any other winning candidate in history. Wake up, man.

Sum of my point is that tactical stupidity is rife among the left. And it's a tactical stupidity that ignores the systemic conservative bias in the US and the huge disadvantage to the left that presents, which is only compounded culturally. So, the left end up being sheep in wolves clothing. The "defund the police" slogan is a good example. The slogan being the wolf, the reality, the sheep. The police are never going to be "defunded" in any meaningful widespread way, but the slogan is primed to scare away just the voters in the places that are needed to give power to the left to do anything about the police. Circle jerks on ideological purity end up achieving nothing but filling the cannons of the right's propaganda fear campaign. You could just as easily call it "reform the police" with no substantive change in aim. But, no we must have a fight, so we can lose again. Fuck that. Enough. Time for a smarter approach. That's my central point, not a criticism of you criticizing Biden but the self-destructive and politically naive nature of your critique, which seems more about blowing off steam than any attempt to realistically further the goals of the left. What it says to me is you don't understand America and, maybe, you don't care enough to understand it because you are just too overwhelmed by contempt. Which is fine, but you're not going to contribute anything of value with that attitude.

:rofl:

Waiting to be enlightened. :eyes:

No worries! I'm not going to piss in a glass that's half full.

But at least his reading lists are still inspired. — 180 Proof

Both of you on that one. :up:

“Never, ever in a million years did we see Joe Biden as a destination,” said Nicolas O’Rourke, the Pennsylvania organizing director of Working Families Party Pennsylvania, a labor-aligned third party. “He’s a doorway to the kind of terrain and world that we could actually organize in.
...
About a half-dozen progressive politicians addressed protesters last week. State Rep. Chris Rabb (D., Philadelphia) called Biden “harm reduction” and said work on more liberal policies would only intensify upon his election.”

:up:

https://www.inquirer.com/news/biden-trump-victory-election-2020-progressives-green-new-deal-leftist-aoc-philadelphia-20201112.html

...so long as the upshot isn’t counter to the pragmatic choices that have to be made to keep the worse of them out of power. — Pfhorrest

:up:

Sounds like you haven't being paying attention to anything specific that's happened during this cycle and are just intent on repeating the same shit we already know as if we're all stupid because we're not listening to you. Nice strawman.

Here's a dose of reality on the specifics of what happened this time around. Biden got 78 million votes. That's 10 million more than Obama. The left (what there is of it in America and there isn't much) came out en masse and voted against Trump. So there wasn't a turnout issue. But even then, Biden only won because suburban moderates couldn't stand orangeman enough that they got pushed Dem. Suburban moderates don't vote for "socialists". Conclusion, Bernie would have lost (and I say this as someone who previously thought he could win). And any, even mildly, leftwing candidate would have lost. And then what? Vaseline, lube, arse on fire, Trump for another four years. Great, you may say, taught those neolibs a lesson. But then what? America flips socialist in 2024? AOC for pres? Accelerationism? What?

The reality is that the structure of the electoral college and the Senate means any shift left in the Dems will result in a concomitant shift right that will blow up any hope of even milquetoast European style social democratic politics there in the foreseeable future. The only hope I see for change is in the demographics. And those take time. As the boomers die off and minorities become the majority, politics will follow to a degree. In the meantime, it's a holding pattern against the extreme right. And it's fine for you to say "fuck it all" but you don't have to live under Trump and his growing cabal of leftist-hating apparatchiks.

But tell me I'm wrong. Tell me what the realistic alternative to Biden was or is in the current political environment, under the current systemic political constraints, that justifies the burn-down-the-village-to-save-it narrative? Or switch tack like some of us have done to accepting the US is what it is for now and looking at what the left can do tactically in hostile political circumstances to both gain some foothold in terms of policy and stave off another Trumpist-style administration. I'm just not hearing anything of substance from you that you haven't said a million times before that is relevant to the specific place we're in right now and what can be done about it.

It's possible to be critical of Biden and agree with @180 Proof on this. Things that aren't going to change include some important stuff like the US's pro-Israel stance, neoliberal economics etc. Things that are going to change also include important stuff like courts around the country no longer being packed with unqualified conservative extremists and renewed efforts to combat climate change. There's also the issue of minorities not having to live under an openly racist, quasi-fascist nutjob. Let's have a balanced conversation about this.

Seriously, anyone who is not as critical of Biden as they were of Trump may as well be a Trump supporter — StreetlightX

It was you who pointed out more strongly than anyone else that the focus on Trump for being Trump was misguided. You're making the same mistake with Biden (and Hillary) as far as I can see.

Probably wishful thinking on my part. Sick of the orange monkey and his entourage of clowns.

Seeing as Trump is becoming increasingly irrelevant, this thread is likely to soon outlive its usefulness and fade away. Ditto for NOS.

From the Israeli newspaper, Haaretz:

"
Achieving the Impossible, Trump May Leave the Middle East Worse Than He Found It

Trump deserves praise for brokering normalization accords between Israel and the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain, and Sudan is the latest to join the list. In exchange, each country received a gift package suited to its needs: the UAE got F-35 fighters; Sudan was removed from the list of state sponsors of terrorism; and Bahrain will get what’s left over.

But a deal of the century that would end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, it isn’t. Trump didn’t work any miracles; he didn’t resolve a bloody conflict between Israel and any Arab state.

He gave a seal of approval to the continuation of the occupation and the annexation of the Golan Heights. He moved the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem. And he destroyed Washington’s status as a mediator between Israel and the Palestinians, and thereby any hope of a diplomatic horizon for both Israelis and Palestinians.

...

But the crown jewel of Trump’s business doctrine was actually a liquidation: his withdrawal from the nuclear deal with Iran in 2018.

...

Trump’s efforts to heal the quarrel that pitted Saudi Arabia, Egypt and the UAE against Qatar, which hosts the largest U.S. base in the Middle East, also failed. The economic blockade that the Gulf states and Egypt imposed on Qatar resulted in the latter forging closer relations with Turkey and Iran, which have formed an alliance that seeks to replace the pro-American Arab axis.

...

We can only hope that the next U.S. presidential term will be a boring one, devoid of passions and without a clown running the world.
"


https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/.premium-trump-achieved-the-impossible-and-left-the-middle-east-worse-than-he-found-it-1.9284398

Out of context. In terms of hurting the other side, yes, he hurt Iran with that attack. But it could hardly be argued that that was a successful effort to forge peace. In fact, it almost led to a dangerous escalation.

... Of course, I'm wrong, Trump made peace in the Middle East, won the election by a landslide, and is a very stable genius. :brow:

You keep repeating this rubbish despite being refuted. So, again, Trump didn't do shit of substance in the Middle East. You can't make peace between countries that are not only not at war, but are not even in meaningful conflict. Meanwhile the parties that are in conflict, either directly or by proxy, eg. Israel, Palestine, Iran, still are, and are, in fact, further away from peace than ever due to Trump's one-sided approach, which included the inflammatory acts of relocating the US embassy to Jerusalem and withdrawing from the Iran nuclear deal.

So, Trump's efforts at "peace" amounted to nothing more than granting a Netanyahu wishlist while attempting to bribe the Palestinians with a few billon to shut them up. That failed miserably, so he was reduced to this pathetic PR effort of "normalising relations" between Israel and a few Arab countries that had no part in the conflict. He did this for one reason and one reason only, so he and his sycophants could proclaim to an ignorant public that he made "peace" in the Middle East. Utter BS, the Middle East, in terms of the protagonists that actually matter, is further away from peace than ever.

Try and remember where you last saw it. — jamalrob

Not at a Trump presser for sure.

tl;dr. "Fuck Trump".

Bitcoin has been making moves lately and cryptocurrencies in general have been proving their utility. With talk of the digital dollar and digital euro in the air, I thought it would be a good time to resurrect this thread. (Also, I'm a convert.)

Who's in and where do you think it's going?

:lol:

This is why KGB agent @NOS4A2 hasn't been banned btw, he's a @jamalrob sockpuppet. :scream:

:cheer:

The same point in every nation's history. — Michael

In some places, you're not an adult until you climb up a tree, stick your hand into a beehive, and steal a fistful of honeycomb. Not suggesting you do that, of course. Unless you really want to.

"There's been something quite beautiful about watching Trump's presidency being slowly euthanized by cold hard numbers and irrefutable facts, not so much going out with a bang but an untrustworthy liquid fart."

:fire: :100: :party:

Pretty much the same here in Europe. When the result is certain, it's over. Just be thankful that's after and not before the election like in some parts of the world. :wink:

:clap:

Fox News have started to behave themselves and I think the majority of Trump voters are accepting this defeat gracefully. The positive side of the American spirit is winning through here.

Giuliani's "fake election" presser.

Drinking Trump tears right now, baby. :razz: :kiss:

About a month ago, he put out a statement telling the UK no trade deal if they renege on their part of the deal with the EU that relates to Ireland. The House did the same.

:halo:

:100: If there's one thing America hates more than a loser, it's a sore loser. Trump is destroying himself better than any of his opponents could.

Boris is shitting a brick because Biden told him if he fucks Ireland over, no trade deal. Needless to say, Donnie won't like that a bit.

... Can those get you drunk too? :starstruck:

Celebrating the demise of Trump and his minions along with my winnings at the bookies the American way. :yum: :party: :party: :party:

Yes, and you can add that, especially in America, COVID is disproportionately affecting the poor who are just the ones who would have that fear.