The Tiki torch crowd will shake their burning sticks no matter what is said. The thing about saying this in NYC is the long history of the people from Puerta Rico in the city. What I have learned from working with many of them is that they are closely networked with their relatives here in the States and back on the Island. I also learned that many are conservative in their views. Here is a guy who puts those elements into focus:

Agreed. There is a strong conservative interest in those groups who vote for their perceived interests even if it aligns them with people they otherwise do not like. They can tear down a tent as quickly make one.

Having one of the speakers of the MSG rally held last night joke that Puerto Rico is garbage is going to piss off people on both sides of the political divide. The campaign seems to have forgotten where the hell they were.

I don't want to make light of the peril of another Trump administration. I am only saying that the most dangerous parts go well beyond a particular person and their intentions.

I take a less apocalyptic view. I survived Covid when Trump was talking about quack cures and the power of bleach. One has to only listen to him speak for ten minutes now to learn that he is less than the ignorant person he was back then.

So, it would really suck if he were elected. It is the people around him who would use that for their advantage that is the more present danger. He is the El Cid riding the horse into battle after passing away.

Your take of his persona is odd for me to hear.

I have been working in construction for almost 40 years in NYC. He has long been the client you do not want to have. He makes deals to burn them. I worked for outfits that made similar deals with similar people. I never got paid fully from them. Pour Champaigne on me twice, shame on me.

Of course it is a business. They serve their market just as the Washington Times serves theirs. If it was a matter of only the marketplace, the paper would not suffer for declining to endorse. If we are to believe the narrative, Bezos does not want to be on the enemy list if Trump wins. That too, can be a financial decision but a different calculation than maximizing profit.

Another big news organization in chaos from big money pulling for Trump:

I am not sure how to talk about these different experiences in a modern context.

In the Republic, the most repeated ratio is the individual soul being the measure of what happens in a City.

Socrates becomes a voice in the City like his internal voice works on himself.

The 'moral panic' language can be found on Fox, Washington Times, Breitbart, and Red State.

The sources for the 1/6 action at the Capitol being engineered by the deep state is less available. Like his master, Nos for a two cannot be fact checked.

According to Kelly, Trump did not believe him when he pointed out that some of Hitler's generals tried to kill him. I am sure you are right about the image of success.

Trump's real problem is that the Constitution limits the role of the military in our society.

The bleakest work of Russian literature I've read is probably Life and Fate by Grossman. Or maybe it's harrowing, rather than bleak, since it's fundamentally optimistic and non-nihilistic. Anyway, it's great. — Jamal

I get why you say it is non-nihilistic but it changed the shape of my nightmares forever.

John Kelly reports on Trump's approval of Hitler in some respects. The pooper scoopers who follow his every move will probably not pick that one up.

There are many elements to your thesis that require different kinds of responses. I will stick to one question for now:

The principle of sufficient reason was developed by Leibniz a hundred years or more after Spinoza. Which part of Spinoza's argument in his Ethics demonstrates the use of this principle?

There are the accounts of Socrates' daimon giving him warnings. In Phaedo, the voice said he should set poetry to music. Plato shows him as withdrawn from others before going to the party in Symposium. Plato keeps pointing to these personal experiences but does not turn them into a single story. They seem to vary as much as the different myths that are used throughout his works.

That is a contrast to Xenophon who does speak of 'conversations' with a divine agent in his Apology.

As for introducing ‘new divinities,’ how could I be guilty of that merely in asserting that a god’s voice is made manifest to me indicating what I should do? Surely those who take their omens from the cries of birds and the utterances of humans form their judgments on ‘voices.’ Will any one dispute either that thunder utters its ‘voice’ or that it is an omen of the greatest moment? Does not the very priestess who sits on the tripod at Pytho divulge the god’s will through a ‘voice’? But more than that, in regard to the god’s foreknowledge of the future and his forewarning of it to whomever he wishes, these are the same terms, I assert, that all people use and credit. The only difference between them and me is that whereas they call the sources of their forewarning ‘birds,’ ‘utterances,’ ‘chance meetings,’ ‘prophets,’ I call mine a ‘divine’ thing, and I think that in using such a term I am speaking with greater truth and piety than those who ascribe the gods’ power to birds. That I do not lie against the god I have this further proof: I have revealed to many of my friends the counsels which the god has given me, and in no instance has the event shown that I was mistaken.” — Xenophon, Apology, 12, translated by Marchant and Todd

No court reporters at the time so verification of who is closer to what was said is not possible.

I am curious about your age and level of education. What might help one person could be meaningless to another.

Bleak House by Dickens.
A return to fiction after a long hiatus.

Is this a daimonic determination of destiny. A web being spun. — Amity

The role of the daimon is not as clearly set out as the powers that make a life a certain length. The most terrible idea of the spinning thread is that much is determined at birth.

Socrates is presented as receiving instruction from his daimon at particular times. Those moments are not presented as unavoidable fate. It sounds more like thinking for oneself.

My focus remains on where Plato has taken us in Book 10 after showing the poets in a new light. To that end, I am trying to get a better handle on the version of Er that Plato tells. Getting a clear view of the three daughters is difficult because there are other stories than those given by Hesiod who names them with different parents than spoken of in Er. I will keep looking around.

It does seem safe to say that the connection between 'spinning a thread' and mortality was well established in Homer. One example:

Nor shall he meanwhile suffer any evil or harm, until he sets foot upon his own land; but thereafter he shall suffer whatever fate and the dread spinners spun with their thread for him at his birth, when his mother bore him. — Homer, Odessey, Book 7, 193, translated by A. T. Murray

The plural spinners are κλῶθές in Greek. That matches the name of Clotho, the middle sister, in the Er story.

The discussion of Homer translations is interesting. But I need to stay focused on the architecture of mortality and a surprise plumbing malfunction.

It is not clear to me that the relationship is severed at death. Where does it say this in Book 10? — Amity

I will try to put forward a more nuanced response in the coming week. For now, I will make two observations.

In Homer, fate is the timing of a mortal's death. It has a role in the fortunes of the gods but not the absolute closure experienced by mortal life. I think the original idea is important to absorb before looking at how the work got broken up into parts.

In the story of Er, the diamon is chosen/assigned before birth. Its job is to make sure the individual life follows the pattern selected/assigned. If a former human decides to become a hippopotamus, the pattern will differ along with the constraints needed for that life to endure (as long as that life lasts). A different diamon will need to be brought on board to cover the action.

So, what to make of Er in light of these differences is the question for me. I think that likening the three sisters to spinners of thread is to look at mortality as a production. The experiences of the soul are seen through a "mechanism" of life coming into being. The souls may be immortal but the work of each daimon is complete when Atropos cuts the thread. — Paine

I want to take this observation into a new direction. If the relationship between a soul and its daimon is over at the end of each life, that underlines a register of personal experience that does not survive death. This aspect makes the Er story differ from the other mythos Plato puts forward. This makes me wonder if Book 10 is a focus of Aristotle's criticism of Plato's view of nature.

In De Anima, Aristotle rejects the notion that souls can be inserted into just any body. That countervails against the arbitrary power of the Fates in the Er story. It also touches on the mention of the Pythagoreans at the beginning of Book 10, who Aristotle specifically rejects because of their version of metempsychosis.

On the other hand, Aristotle concurs with the Er view of personal mortality when the means of memory are strictly tied to the time when the form of life becomes joined with a particular batch of matter.

Continuing upon the theme of Book 10 as a kind of peace treaty with the poets after struggling against them in the earlier books, Aristophanes shows how common was the idea of visiting the land of the dead as a literary device:

Dionysus and Xanthias: Welcome Charon!

Charon: Who’s for release from cares and troubles? Who’s for the Plain of Oblivion? For Ocnus’ Twinings? The Land of the Cerberians? The buzzards? Taenarum?

Dionysus: Me.

Charon: Hurry aboard.

Dionysus: Where are you headed?

Charon: To the buzzards!

Dionysus: Really?

Charon: Sure, just for you. Now get aboard! — Aristophanes, Frogs, 189, translated by Jeffrey Henderson

What makes the destination 'just for Dionysus' is because he wants to follow the route used by Heracles. The passed over option of "Plain of Oblivion" is the same Greek phrase used by Plato, suggesting he is working with an established story line and combining them with others.

Why would the plain of Lethe be given primacy? — Amity

In regard to our discussion of the meaning of the two different words, I was not arguing for primacy for either term. I was only arguing for a difference. We will have to agree to disagree that there can only be one meaning: per you saying: "I see only one river and one meaning or understanding, given the context."

Why do you use the word 'insistence'? — Amity

My beef with the translators is that a quality of the stream is overlooked in the interest of giving it only one function. The reference to Virgil is to a scene where the river only has the job of wiping the hard drive of mortals:

The souls that throng the flood
Are those to whom, by fate, are other bodies ow’d:
In Lethe’s lake they long oblivion taste,
Of future life secure, forgetful of the past. — Virgil, Aeneid

This view of processing the dead gives the water a role similar to references to the river Styx, a location firmly outside the realm of life. In the context of the story of Er, however, the stream is known in our lives by its effects. In the world of Hesiod, that makes Lethe a relative of Strife, Hardship, Starvation, Pains, Battles, Wars, Murders, Manslaughters, Disputes, Anarchy, Ruin, and Oaths.

We should not forget that in the Phaedrus there is the plain of Aletheia or truth. (248b) — Fooloso4

The mythos of the charioteer does speak of our soul's life beyond this mortal coil but provides a connection to it as well:

“The reason for the great eagerness to behold the plain of truth is that the nutriment appropriate to the best part of soul lies on the meadow 248C there, and the nature of the wing which lifts the soul upwards is nourished by this. And the ordinance of necessity is as follows: any soul that has become a companion to a god and has sight of any of the truths is safe until the next revolution, and if the soul can do this continually, it is always preserved from harm. But whenever it does not see, because it cannot keep up, and is filled with forgetfulness and vice and weighed down through some mischance and sheds its wings on account of the heaviness and falls to the ground, the law decrees that the soul be not implanted 248D in any beastly nature at its first birth. — Phaedrus, 248b, translated by Horan

This story varies sharply from the allotment of Fates depicted in the story of Er. The "plain of Aletheia" is set over against "forgetfulness and vice." This narrative is closer to the one given in Phaedo than Er:

“And if after we have acquired it we have not forgotten it every time, we must always be born with the knowledge and live with the knowledge throughout our lives. For that is what knowing is, the retention of knowledge, without loss, once it has been acquired. For we do refer to forgetting as the loss of knowledge, do we not, Simmias?” 75E

“Entirely so, Socrates, of course,” he replied.

“On the other hand, I presume that if we acquired knowledge before birth and lost it in the process of birth, but later on, by using the senses in this regard, we re-acquired the knowledge we previously possessed, then what we call learning would be a re-acquisition of our own knowledge. And wouldn’t we be right to call this recollection?” — Phaedo, 75d, translated by Horan

So, what to make of Er in light of these differences is the question for me. I think that likening the three sisters to spinners of thread is to look at mortality as a production. The experiences of the soul are seen through a "mechanism" of life coming into being. The souls may be immortal but the work of each daimon is complete when Atropos cuts the thread.

Baier's need to control the message is the message.

However, I'm not clear if there are 2 different Greek words. Or if it is one Greek word with different meanings. — Amity

It is two different Greek words. I meant to say that with my first comment on the passage and now realize that I did not introduce enough background to make that clear. The wiki is correct when it says: "Also known as the Amelēs potamos (river of unmindfulness)"

The name of a river. — Amity

I wonder if this aspect is why the two separate meanings got collapsed into one (by some). The reference to the "plain of Lethe" is not given primacy over the "river of carelessness" in the text. The different meanings are related to their effects. Looking at how the mythology is developed; the mapping of the underworld follows the story of the origins of the quality being described.

I wonder if the insistence of the river with a name comes from poets such as Virgil where the role of Lethe is located in the afterlife (and pre-life) and has no role amongst the living.

Each word counts. And it is why I wonder at the change from 'Heedlessness' to 'Forgetfulness'. When it seems clear that the purpose of the drinking from the river is to forget, rather than to become 'careless'. — Amity

The two words, 'forgetting' and 'carelessness' are both clearly in the account. I fault the translations that fail to convey the difference between the two. I am curious why it is ignored by many translators. The water can have two properties at the same time. The 'lack of measure', displayed by many, is a kind of carelessness.

The convergence of the two properties makes sense as an observation of life. The oblivion of forgetting is like the not-remembering where you are that being thoughtless inculcates. The opposite of both properties is needed for 'seeking justice with intelligence' called for by Socrates in the final address to Glaucon. Departed souls don't get to do much seeking.

I wonder if Plato didn't include this as an option because he was arguing against the use of poetry? — Amity

I agree with @Fooloso4 view of the poetry being re-directed to Plato's ends to address the weakness of Homer and Hesiod discussed at the beginning of Book 10. What is included or not of the commonly told stories becomes a discussion amongst the stories.

We should not forget that in the Phaedrus there is the plain of Aletheia or truth. (248b) — Fooloso4

:up: Where the image of the charioteer speaks of the reality beyond images..

The question of 'drinking too much' oblivion reminds me that the mythology of Hesiod and the Orphic mysteries have the role of Lethe set over against the role of Mnemosyne (or Memory).

Sipping the water of Mnemosyne is not given as one of the options in the Er account. That is interesting considering that Plato uses the mythos of Recollection (anamnesis) or call to mind, in different discussions of learning. That suggests to me that the role of recollection is principally the activity of the living soul.

The absence of Mnemosyne in Plato's account suggests to me that he is not concerned with remembering past 'life' of the soul in the way that interested Plotinus and other Neo-Platonists.

Just a quick note on the Greek: the place next to the river is called a plain: "τῆς Λήθης πεδίον"

πεδίον (pedion) is defined in the lexicon as: flat, level, on or of the plain. Jones and Preddy translate this word directly:

And then, without turning round, it went beneath the throne of Necessity, and after passing through it, when the rest had also passed through, they all made their way to the plain of Lethe through terrifying choking fire: for the place was empty of trees and anything else that grows in the earth. — ibid. 621a

Edit to add:
By way of description, there is mention of the 'river of carelessness': τὸν Ἀμέλητα ποταμόν.

Ἀμέλητα (amelta) is defined as neglectful, heedless, etcetera. I will look around for a translation that expresses this distinct usage. For now, it should be noted that two different words are in play here.

Edit #2 I found Horan makes the distinction:

From there it went, inexorably, beneath the throne of Necessity, 621A and when it had gone through, since the others had also gone through, they all proceeded to the Plain of Forgetfulness through terrible burning, stifling heat, for the place is devoid of trees or anything that springs from the earth. Evening was coming on by then, so they encamped beside the River of Heedlessness whose water no vessel can contain. Now it was necessary for all of them to drink a measure of the water, but some, who were not protected by wisdom, drank more than the measure, and as he drank, 621B each forgot everything. — translated by Horan

Excellent attempt at reframing the odd into the normative. Your job is secure until it does not matter.

Surprising to learn that his work wasn't well received while he was alive. — praxis

He freaked people out. Like hearing Hendrix in the beginning.

I agree with that interpretation. I also agree with your view of Odysseus as a 'repurposed' life.

The distinction between the choice and the "assignment" of fate also has the cosmological dimension of depicting the life we encounter. Just as the Timaeus does in your comment here.

Edited to add @Fooloso4:
The cosmological element is also what I was thinking about above when comparing the three daughters as depicted in Er and in Theogony. Like Homer, Hesiod is preserved and changed at the same time.

Yes, the choice of the soul does seem to be separated from the work of assignment by Lachesis.

I am not sure how it relates to your previous comment about virtue, but I read the role of 'assignment' in this passage as meaning that much more is required for our life to happen than the initial choice. Those requirements, however, do not allow us to "blame the gods" for our choice.

Plato’s concept of necessity differs from ours. What is by necessity is without nous or intellect. Necessary causes can act contrary to intelligible causes. — Fooloso4

I wonder if the language of Hesiod plays a part in this:

Thus it is not possible to deceive or elude the mind of Zeus. For not even Iapetus’ son, guileful34 Prometheus, escaped his heavy wrath, but by necessity a great bond holds him down, shrewd though he be. — Hesiod, Theogony, 613, translated by Glenn W. Most

Each soul chooses a daimon and also a pattern of life. (617e) The daimon is the guardian of that life. (620d) Nothing is said about choosing a daimon, on what basis it is chosen, or how closely it reflects the soul that chooses it. — Fooloso4

The relationship between the choosing and the daimon seems to be an assignment by a daughter of Necessity:

“So when all the souls had chosen their lives, according to the draw they approached Lachesis in order and she gave each the spirit (daimon) they had chosen to escort them as protector through their lives and as fulfiller of their choices. — ibid. 620d

The daimon impels a movement forward as well as enforcing the consequences of the choice.

Comparing the myth of Er with Hesiod's Theogony, shows the Fates literally having a darker story in the latter version:

Night bore loathsome Doom and black Fate and Death, and she bore Sleep, and she gave birth to the tribe of Dreams. Second, then, gloomy Night bore Blame and painful Distress, although she had slept with none of the gods, and the Hesperides, who care for the golden, beautiful apples beyond glorious Ocean and the trees bearing this fruit. And she bore (a) Destinies and (b) pitilessly punishing Fates, (a) Clotho (Spinner) and Lachesis (Portion) and Atropos (Inflexible), who give to mortals when they are born both good and evil to have, and (b) who hold fast to the transgressions of both men and gods; and the goddesses never cease from their terrible wrath until they give evil punishment to whoever commits a crime. Deadly Night gave birth to Nemesis (Indignation) too, a woe for mortal human beings; and after her she bore Deceit and Fondness and baneful Old Age, and she bore hard-hearted Strife. — ibid. 211

The role of the daimon emerges as a dynamic belonging to an individual life.

As depicted in the story, the options are listed as what the lottery offers. Some are left scrabbling for the last bits.

I recognize how the Aristotle view is a part of the conversation.

Presumably, the impetus of 'willing x makes it so' is either a tilt at a windmill or a collapse of all willing. The idea of a Supreme Being can play either side.

:up:
The level of detail in the composition blows my mind.

I am going to be slow to respond to the other parts of the Er story because I am a slow reader. I will check out your sources. This is an interesting part of the dialogue that I have skimped over in the past.

Just wanted to say I respect C.D.C Reeve's translations. I prefer others for different reasons, but he is very consistent in his use of phrases.

The description of the spindle whorls is hard to visualize on the cosmological scale. I went searching for information that could give me a leg up from the statement: "The nature of the whorl is as follows: its shape is like the ones we use...." The most succinct explanation I could find is on this site where the section, Process of Ancient Spinning and Weaving can be found.

Here is another, Picturing Homeric Weaving, that has helpful references to the process as a part of the whole art of producing fabric.

Here is a single image of the whorls shown together in the first website.

The are some seemingly impossible features of the subsequent descriptions of the whorls within other whorls I won't try to wrap my brain around right now. Maybe in the coming week. I will end with two observations:

The humble beginning of this elaborate image connects this process with the techne emphasized at the beginning of Book 10, where the carpenter makes usable beds and chairs.

When the souls are choosing their future habitations, Epeius selects:

After her he saw the soul of Panopeus’ son Epeius entering the nature of a female craftworker. — ibid. 620c

The footnote provided: "Epeius built the wooden horse of Troy; also distinguished himself at Achilles’ funeral games as a champion boxer (Hom.Il. 23.664ff.).