Yes, which maybe should make you question if you have any clue what the debate is about. — Count Timothy von Icarus
What if in place of Kant’s Transcendental categories we substituted normative social practices? Doesn’t that stay true to Kant’s insight concerning the inseparable role of subjectivity in the construction of meaning while avoiding a solipsistic idealism? Don’t we need to think in terms of normative social practices in order to make sense of science? — Joshs
That’s what pragmatist-hermeneutical and poststructural models of practice are for. For Hegel and Marx the dialectic totalizes historical becoming. In these latter models cultural becoming is contextually situated and non-totalizable. — Joshs
It is normativity all the way down.
Hegel's contradiction is pretty far from most paraconsistent logics, given the unity and "development" of opposites. — Count Timothy von Icarus
If you're interested though, formalization attempts have run through category theory and Lawvere is the big name here.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://philarchive.org/archive/CORMAA-3v1&ved=2ahUKEwjrxdPIz6CJAxURlIkEHUmyEkcQFnoECCEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3XxnDtBEih45jE5c2zfW2d
Nlab has some stuff on this too.
I have read many commentaries on the Logic at the point. Houlgate and Wallace are my favorites (Wallace isn't quite a commentary, but he does focus on the Logic), but Taylor was useful too. Despite this and now years of effort, I find the essence chapter largely impenetrable lol. — Count Timothy von Icarus
Like probably everyone on TPF, I have read about paraconsistent logic as I read about animals in a far off land, but I have never worked with it or made use of it. — Leontiskos
Are you asking me whether I think that accepting both paraconsistent and explosive logic results in the robust kind of logical pluralism? My guess is that I would answer 'no.' Paraconsistency does not entail Dialetheism. And paraconsistent logic is often used informally in everyday life (if that counts). — Leontiskos
I also haven't seen anyone in this thread who favors logical pluralism embrace Dialetheism - other than yourself, of course. They seem to be mostly Augustinians, "Lord, give me logical pluralism, but not yet!"
And so it is up to monists to show what it is that all logical systems have in common. I don't see that it can be done. — Banno
Do you see why I feel that I am wasting my time? — Leontiskos
Perhaps that's a nice example of the methodological difference between pluralism and monism. I don't actually think this is quite right, but at the least it shows a difference in approach. — Banno
The liar is clear, in the way you have argued. Rejecting it as a "nonsense" is a failing of nerve, rather than an act of rationality. There are three ways of dealing with it that I think worth considering. Tarski would say that it is a mistake to assign truth values to sentences within the same language, but permissible between languages, so the problem with the liar is that it tries to say something about the falsity of a sentence within it's own language. Kripke would say that we can assign truth values within one language, but that we shouldn't assign them to every sentence, the liar being an example of a sentence to which we cannot assign a truth value. Revision theories would have us say "this sentence is true" is true on the first iteration, false and the second, true on the third... and so on. — Banno
Or if you like, why is it false, whatever "it" is supposed to be? How do we know that it is false? Is it because you said so? But you saying so does not make a thing false, so that's a dead end. Even Wittgenstein understood that a sentence cannot prove or show its own truth or falsity. — Leontiskos
You haven't managed to address the argument. Let's set it out again:
The clause "...is false" presupposes an assertion or claim.
"This sentence" is not an assertion or claim.
Therefore, "This sentence is false," does not supply "...is false" with an assertion or claim.
Now here's what you have to do to address the argument. You have to argue against one of the premises or the inference. So pick one and have a go. — Leontiskos
Note too that, "This sentence is false," is different from, "This sentence is false is false," or more clearly, " 'This sentence is false' is false. " Be clear on what you are trying to say, if you really think you are saying something intelligible at all. Be clear about what you think is false.
Maybe he would have wished he could resurrect correspondence, but he knew he hadn't. — frank
Not all paraconsistent logics accept dialetheism, but dialethiests are pretty much obligated to accept paraconsistent logic. — Banno
So be honest. When you say, "This sentence is true/false," do you think you are saying something meaningful? Would you actually use that phrase, speak it aloud, and expect to have said something meaningful? — Leontiskos
A sentence says something if it presents a comprehensible assertion. It says something if its claim is intelligible. — Leontiskos
Now when you say, "X is false," I can think of X's that fit the bill. I might ask what you mean by X, and you might say, "2+2=5." That's fine. "...is false" applies to claims or assertions. If there is no claim or assertion then there is no place for "...is false." For example, "Duck is false," "2+3+4+5 is false," "This sentence is false."
In order for a sentence to be true or false it must say something. That is what it means to be a sentence. "This sentence is false," does not say anything. It is not a sentence. It is no more coherent than, "This sentence is true," or, "This sentence is blue," or, "This sentence is that." — Leontiskos
If you think that answer is wrong then you'll have to tell us what the sentence means. — Leontiskos
We have become accustomed, through the influence of the Cartesian
tradition, to disengage from the object: the reflective attitude simultaneously purifies the common notions of body and soul by defining
the body as the sum of its parts with no interior, and the soul as a being
wholly present to itself without distance. These definitions make matters perfectly clear both within and outside ourselves: we have the
transparency of an object with no secret recesses, the transparency of a
subject which is nothing but what it thinks it is. The object is an object
through and through, and consciousness a consciousness through and
through. There are two senses, and two only, of the word ‘exist’: one
exists as a thing or else one exists as a consciousness. The experience of
our own body, on the other hand, reveals to us an ambiguous mode of
existing. If I try to think of it as a cluster of third person processes—
‘sight’, ‘motility’, ‘sexuality’—I observe that these ‘functions’ cannot
be interrelated, and related to the external world, by causal connections, they are all obscurely drawn together and mutually implied in a
unique drama. Therefore the body is not an object. For the same reason, my awareness of it is not a thought, that is to say, I cannot take it to
pieces and reform it to make a clear idea. Its unity is always implicit and
vague. It is always something other than what it is, always sexuality and
at the same time freedom, rooted in nature at the very moment when it
is transformed by cultural influences, never hermetically sealed and
never left behind. Whether it is a question of another’s body or my
own, I have no means of knowing the human body other than that of
living it, which means taking up on my own account the drama which
is being played out in it, and losing myself in it. I am my body, at least
wholly to the extent that I possess experience, and yet at the same time
my body is as it were a ‘natural’ subject, a provisional sketch of my total
being. Thus experience of one’s own body runs counter to the reflective procedure which detaches subject and object from each other, and
which gives us only the thought about the body, or the body as an idea,
and not the experience of the body or the body in reality. Descartes was
well aware of this, since a famous letter of his to Elizabeth draws the
distinction between the body as it is conceived through use in living
and the body as it is conceived by the understanding.40 But in Descartes
this peculiar knowledge of our body, which we enjoy from the mere
fact that we are a body, remains subordinated to our knowledge of it
through the medium of ideas, because, behind man as he in fact is,
stands God as the rational author of our de facto situation. On the basis of
this transcendent guarantee, Descartes can bllandly accept our irrational
condition: it is not we who are required to bear the responsibility for
reason and, once we have recognized it at the basis of things, it remains
for us only to act and think in the world.41 But if our union with the
body is substantial, how is it possible for us to experience in ourselves a
pure soul from which to accede to an absolute Spirit? Before asking this
question, let us look closely at what is implied in the rediscovery of our
own body. It is not merely one object among the rest which has the
peculiarity of resisting reflection and remaining, so to speak, stuck to
the subject. Obscurity spreads to the perceived world in its entirety. — MMP Phenomenology of Perception, end of chapter 6
That said, I get the distinction, and I think it's a useful one to some extent. Nevertheless, when logicians want to discuss truth, and validity as "truth preserving," one has to understand what is meant by "truth." One can declare one's logic "pure" and free from metaphysics, but honestly it seems that all this accomplishes is making one's presuppositions opaque and immune to scrutiny (and, relevant to this topic, does so in a way that I think is often question begging re logical nihilism). — Count Timothy von Icarus
Just a helpful point of clarification, "classical logic," is confusingly the logic developed by Frege and co. relatively recently. There is no good catch-all term for logic before the late 19th century. People call it "Aristotlean," but then this tends to miss everything between Aristotle and 1850 or so. — Count Timothy von Icarus
And why do we perceive it as regular? — Count Timothy von Icarus
I'm also not sure what "being" is supposed to be if it isn't what is given to thought. — Count Timothy von Icarus
They are supposed to be objections to Aristotle, so yes, of course they do. You might as well have objected to Mr. Rogers by telling us that you prefer people who put on shoes. Mr. Rogers puts on shoes in every episode. — Leontiskos
There are infinitely many possible syllogisms, but only 256 logically distinct types and only 24 valid types (enumerated below). A syllogism takes the form (note: M – Middle, S – subject, P – predicate.):
Major premise: All M are P.
Minor premise: All S are M.
Conclusion/Consequent: All S are P.
The premises and conclusion of a syllogism can be any of four types, which are labeled by letters[14] as follows. ... — wikipedia
As has been pointed out numerous times, this is just gibberish. What do you mean by (1)? — Leontiskos
I am not sure if you can have an "epistemic endeavour," that is unrelated to being though. What is our knowledge of in this case? Non-being? — Count Timothy von Icarus
Logic is the study of validity and validity is a property of arguments. For
my purposes here it will be sufficient to think of arguments as pairs of sets and
conclusions: the first members of the pair is the set of the argument’s premises
and the second member is its conclusion. An argument is valid just in case
it is truth-preserving, that is, if and only if, whenever all the members of the
premise-set are true, so the conclusion is true as well.
The domain of logic, then, might be thought of as a great collection of
arguments, divided into two exclusive and exhaustive subcollections, the valid
and the invalid, the good and the bad, and the task of the logician as that of
dividing one from t’other. — Gillian Russell
Suppose we had a formal system that answered all our questions about physics, or maybe some area of it like fluid dynamics. How could it have "no relation" to being? At the very least, it would have a relation to our experiences, which are surely part of being. — Count Timothy von Icarus
I want to do leap year physics. You get a nice three year break. — Count Timothy von Icarus
A good example of how re-thinking how we phrase the apparent paradox can provide new insight. We have "This sentence is false". It seems we must assign either "true" or "false" to the Liar – with all sorts of amusing consequences.
Here is a branch on this tree. We might decide that instead of only "true" or "false" we could assign some third value to the Liar - "neither true nor false" or "buggered if I know" or some such. And we can develop paraconsitent logic.
Here's another branch. We might recognise that the Liar is about itself, and notice that this is also true of similar paradoxes - Russell's, in particular. We can avoid these sentences by introducing ways of avoiding having sentences talk about themselves. This leads to set theory, for Russell's paradox, and to Kripke's theory of truth, for the Liar.
Again, we change the way we talk about the paradox, and the results are interesting.
And again, rejecting an apparent rule leads to innovation. — Banno
But these are so far from counterexamples to Aristotle that they are all things he explicitly takes up. — Leontiskos
Every time I have seen someone try to defend a claim like this they fall apart very quickly. The "Liar's paradox" seems to me exceptionally silly as a putative case for a standing contradiction. For example, the pages of <this thread> where I was posting showed most everyone in agreement that there are deep problems with the idea that the "Liar's paradox" demonstrates some kind of standing contradiction. — Leontiskos
Priest (1984, 2006) has been one of the leading voices in advocating a paraconsistent approach to solving the Liar paradox. He has proposed a paraconsistent (and non-paracomplete) logic now known as LP (for Logic of Paradox), which retains LEM, but not EFQ.[10] It has the distinctive feature of allowing true contradictions. This is what Priest calls the dialetheic approach to truth.
What if in place of Kant’s Transcendental categories we substituted normative social practices? Doesn’t that stay true to Kant’s insight concerning the inseparable role of subjectivity in the construction of meaning while avoiding a solipsistic idealism? Don’t we need to think in terms of normative social practices in order to make sense of science? — Joshs
Sure, if by "pure" we mean "ignoring the content and purpose of logic." But even nihilists and deflationists don't totally ignore content and the use case of logic. If you do this, you just have the study of completely arbitrary systems, and there are infinitely many such systems and no way to vet which are worth investigating. To say that some systems are "useful" is to already make an appeal to something outside the bare formalism of the systems themselves. "Pure logic" as you describe it could never get off the ground because it would be the study of an infinite multitude of systems with absolutely no grounds for organizing said study. — Count Timothy von Icarus
One might push back on Aristotle's categories sure, but science certainly uses categories. The exact categories are less important than the derived insights about the organization of the sciences. And the organization of the sciences follows Artistotle's prescription that delineations should be based on per se predication (intrinsic) as opposed to per accidens down to this day....
That said, if all categories are entirely arbitrary, the result of infinitely malleable social conventions, without relation to being, then what is the case against organizing a "socialist feminist biology" and a "biology for winter months," etc ?
They certainly wouldn't be useful, but that simply leads to the question "why aren't they useful?" I can't think of a simpler answer than that some predicates are accidental and thus poor ways to organize inquiry. — Count Timothy von Icarus
The rest just want drugs or are mentally ill. — Shawn
The discussion would then be ongoing, keeping Logicians in paid work... — Banno
I am not so confident to become a cynic as of soon. — Shawn
Overwhelmingly this thread has focused on the foetus, without consideration of the person bearing it. What is at stake in the discussion of abortion is the dignity of the person who is to cary the foetus. Now unlike a blastocyst, there can be no doubt as to their humanity, their personhood. — Banno
Is it ok if I refer to "Bubblespeak" in the future? I don't mind.
I can unpublish my website, I don't mind.
But people are asking for more information about my project. Even in this thread, unenlightened was asking more. How should I handle that? Earlier I said, look at my profile, you'll find a link. Mentioning that was allowed, according to jamal. I said a few times Google "Babelspeak", maybe that I shouldn't do?
I am reasonable. But please give me a workable solution. — Carlo Roosen
No, I did not read your SEP article yet. I will, a bit later. — Carlo Roosen