It's naturally permanent, because naturally there always will be those low income. — ssu

I've noticed that people who talk about "an AI" in this kind of context overestimate the capabilities of computer programs. Calling it "an AI" makes it sound like it's an entity, like a person, a mind. It isn't any of those things. — Daemon

Yes. I just don't see the point you're making. — EugeneW

I don't know if it helps your case but belief isn't knowledge, it's just one of three conditions for knowledge (JTB theory) and that being so, proof isn't necessary. You can believe anything you want; fairies, Tinker Bell, Rocs, anything's game when it comes to just belief. — Agent Smith

We agree! Proving god or proving dreams are two different things though. — EugeneW

And they can't proof that they're alive either? — EugeneW

Why it requires proof? — EugeneW

So we can't proof to others we dream, perceive and are alive. So what? — EugeneW

Exactly! Get my point? — EugeneW

That's no proof your perception exists. For all I know you don't have a perception of reality. How can you proof to me you see the world? — EugeneW

Snow is white to humans. It is a fact about human perception and language use. I have no issue with modest claims like cats being on mats, etc. But for me this does not tell us much about an objective world, just how a fragment of that world seems to us, based on the constructions of language and perception. — Tom Storm

A 1 hour dream lasts 5 minutes. REM. Seems good enough proof. A dog barking. Ýou talking in your sleep. Proof! — EugeneW

Is this an empirical statement or a statement about grammar ? Or is it hard to say? — lll

The thing is, I am not sure. — Tom Storm

Reality? Not sure what is in scope here. In general, it seems to me that communities determine what is true through a collaborative exercise in creating agreement. You could say that truth is created not found. Examples of such truths might include - 'democracy as the best government'; 'the value of education'; 'god/s care about humans', 'the imperative of progress'... — Tom Storm

I am not certain what the term objective reality refers to. — Tom Storm

I disagree that the 'outside world' is intelligible to us, but we may do better with our inside world - our thoughts. — Tom Storm

We're desperately trying to find something that doesn't exist, because we simply cannot comprehend the confrontation with the fact, that the universe doesn't care whether or not we exist. — Carlikoff

That's it! There is no scientific evidence of what goes on inside of matter. Science can describe the outside but not the inside. — EugeneW

It might seem odd to ask but how do we know perception exists? — Carlikoff

That we can test every choice, simulate their effects for analysis, even the ones you don't like, must mean something, oui? If we come with preinstalled preference packages (no free will), your choice will be determined by them, obviously, but the point is virtual choices seem not to be affected by one's preference package. — Agent Smith

To be is to be a mind. To be a mind is to be a decision-maker.

The world matters in the formation of such minds. Nature has limited, or constrained, the kinds of ideas that we can generate. Here one looks to the ecological conditions that minds adapt to for guidance. Nature has also insured that we can hit on the right ideas very often. Ideas are then not arbitrary. They are adaptive; they guide behavior. If the ideas are bad, they are rejected. The constraints on our hypotheses are tied to our creative potential....

Your kindness is appreciated. — lll

Probably because whether you dream or not has very little impact on yours and other's lives. — Philosophim

Because such a belief has a fundamental way of altering that person, and other people's lives. — Philosophim

When you have divine guidance, there is no possibility of thinking, amending, or improving. If "Gays are evil" for example, you can't have a rational discussion with that person, as they feel like they are divinely correct, thus your mortal arguments are against God, ignorant, and sinful. This stunts people's growth and makes them emotional animals. Satisfying for the person, but can potentially be terrible for themselves and society. — Philosophim

Of course no one walks around with the kind of equipment needed to spot floaters :wink: - and - this does not affect your larger point. — EricH

Ok, sorry about the crossed wires, I don't think our positions are changed by your update. — universeness

With all due respect, you need to read a response more carefully.

If every human alive stated that god exists then I would not be calling it a fable, because I would believe it too. — universeness — universeness

If each human you meet, confirms to you (if you ask them) that in their opinion, humans dream, then that is proof enough.

— universeness

So anecdotal account can serve as proof. What if every human you meet confirms to you that god exists, would you accept that as proof of god? — L'éléphant

And why should one proof dreams? — EugeneW

You might say you are awake but what if I say that I don't believe you? — EugeneW

So atheism is logical as long as God is fictional ? Isn't that exactly what atheists say? — Hanover

Do you have proof you are awake? You mean that you can never proof pain? — EugeneW

The existence of the universe is proof of gods. — EugeneW

By the same token, can you proof to me that you are awake and not dreaming? — EugeneW