Who made the "defaced" painting?

Yes indeed! I think even Einstein, Galileo(i?), Newton, Hamilton, Lagrange, Hawking, or you and me (to name a few in arbitrary order), owe him (or not, depending on your POV). His thoughts about time, primal movers, eternal circular motion, can compete easily with contemporary notions of space and time. Okay, he didn't use math that much, if at all. I think though that math covers up understanding of the true nature of time (and space).

Aristotle, Aristotle
Left without you
Would be lurking the bottle
Could no more make do

Would be rigid-stuck
In Einstein's arse
On his objective clock
That bugger parse

Aristotle Aristotle
You embottle
modern rebottle
Full throttle

Aristo my man
Far you are in space and time
Still I know I can
Not go on without you

Add day 0 and 7 days you have.

Day0: He woke up Moon
Day1: the heavens Tues
Day2: the light Wednes
Day3: the Earth Thurs
Day4: the life Fri
Day5: the Adam Satur
Day6: Return to rest Sun

Please don't let it be the work days! :cool:

That's true. But so does the clock. Every tick it goes a step further. The hand return to the beginning, but that's a matter of convenience. Beneath both ticks there hides a periodic process. Which is equivalent to a circular motion. These, by the way, are never truly periodic. Even the atomic clock is not perfect. The time that can't be eternal is entropic time. This time needs a beginning.

Where could I learn more about it? — pfirefry

Keep following the thread. The mystery of time will be revealed. The question is, if we know, then what? I think I know the nature of time. Does it make me happy? Well, I'm writing down my musings in a book. Would be nice if it sells. Then I can finally say goodbye to that damned neighbor of us! Just for the sake of annoying him (and his wife) I'd buy a Lamborghini and take of with roaring engine and blowing claxon!

I’d say the latter, since a stopwatch doesn’t run in cycles so its count necessarily has a beginning. — AJJ

Actually, a stopwatch is the ultimate example of a cyclic process.

The wall built by the possessing class. Possession must be protected. By walls and surveillance. Being rich... To be rich means a lot of possession. Now material things can give satisfaction. We can't even life without it. But WTF is so important about possessing them? Don't ask me...

Yes. Yes
— Raymond

Is that yes to both questions? If so then start providing your explanation as to why the past is different from the future. Perhaps we can demystify time through this procedure — Metaphysician Undercover

I try to articulate. I withdraw for reflection and contemplation.

Can you put quantitative parameters on the initial conditions of time? If you can do this in an acceptable way, you might be successful at demystifying time — Metaphysician Undercover

Dunno. What should be parametrized? A closed loop, a quantum bubble in a Feynman diagram, is a superposition of truly periodic functions, positive and negative energy solution of the matter and gauge fields in question. There existed only virtual particles before inflation. The "single circle Feynman diagrams," with closed propagator loops only (no external legs, as there were no "real" external particles yet) are mathematical superpositions of various e-functions, e(exp)iEt, with constant E, positive (matter) or negative (antimatter). So perfectly periodic.There are rotations in the plane of complex numbers. In t (in the e function). But rotations go in both directions, and these rotations constitute the fluctuation. There is no direction in (entropic) time yet. There is a symmetry between forward time and backward time.

A fluctuation, just like a period, is a directional thing. You cannot have a fluctuation without a direction. — Metaphysician Undercover

It has a limited spatial extension and a limited temporal extension. A perfect periodic motion has no direction in time. You can put a clock next to it, to see its progress in time, but how do you know which direction in time the clock goes? The direction has only meaning wrt entropic time, irreversible processes which weren't present yet before inflation.

In the case where they use it only for their own welfare, it becomes a problem — Hello Human

This is what usually happens. Propaganda is made for "the individu" (the undividable) but this individuality is merely exploited in favor of a small group of possessing individuals.

I prefer to receive sympathy from any individual compared to receiving some of the less palatable emotions such as hatred — universeness

:heart:

May the love of the Lord accompany you in your walk on his holy fields...

In your everyday life, do you recognize a difference between past and future? Can you explain the reason for such a difference — Metaphysician Undercover

Yes. Yes.

Boris Johnston in the UK. — universeness

How on Earth could he be elected? The guy is a total joke! Crying for his wife to clean his arse or wipe his weeney!

Why can't time go backward? Isn't this a mystery? — Metaphysician Undercover

Time needs initial conditions.

Obviously, you see two mutually exclusive types of time, so you really do not see what time is. — Metaphysician Undercover

Yes. There is the clock time and entropic time. I understand both. The clock time truly existed before inflation. The state of the universe back then constituted a perfect clock. A perfect periodic state, which has no temporal direction yet. You can't tell if a perfect pendulum (or Aristotle's eternal circular motion) goes forward or backwards in time. It just fluctuates. Then, when the conditions on the 4D substrate were right, the closed 3D Planck volume, containing virtual particles only (represented by Feynman diagrams of closed propagators, circles with an arrow, so the virtualcparticle rotates in space and time), "bangs" into real existence and the perfect clock is gone, replaced by the irreversible process of entropic time. These processes can be quantified by introducing a clock, which can never be realized, as there are no perfectly periodic reversible processes. Only in the mind, and before inflation (caused by the negative curvature of the 4D substrate from which two 3D universes came into being) they exist. Non-inversible processes don't evolve in time, but constitute time. The notion of a time axis on which one can move is a chimaera. What is done (by Einstein) is to put an ideal, imaginary reversible clock (a constant periodic motion not found anywhere, except in the mind) besides of these irreversible processes (constituting entropic time), objectify it by constructing a time axis, and then retroactively state that processes move in it.

There is no enlightenment outside of daily life. — 180 Proof

:up:

Having given a thumb up, one doesn't have to look far to realize daily life usually is a dark, cold, scary life which needs at least some enlightenment from the outside. Or does even daily shit got its intrinsic enlightenment?

I think the evolution of quantum mechanical systems pose no problem for the nature of time. They contribute to its irreversibility, as collapse is irreversible in time. The CP asymmetry is a direct consequence of two universes being produced at the singularity, that blissful central fountain of the spatially 4D eternal Erect from which two pristine and Holy 3D Ejaculates are spawn: an matter Ejaculate and an antimatter Ejaculate. Both contain the same amounts of massless matter and antimatter particles (quantum fields of them). They combine to what we see as quarks and leptons on our side, while on the other side they combine to anti quarks and anti leptons. Because they are massless and they interact as mad by a more basic force than the weak force (which becomes a residual force, like the old strong force mediated by massive pions, which have a counterpart in the massive W and Z bosons in the weak force/ interaction).

He was not writing it for people who cannot tell the time or who do not know whether they had a shower before or after breakfast. — Cuthbert

Then who did he write it for? He didn't succeed though. He had to introduce "imaginary time". I introduce "the imaginary clock". The only real clock was the state of the universe before inflation.

So everyone knows what time is but nobody understands your account of it — Cuthbert

Exactly! How can something so obvious give that much fuzz? Is it inherent to science? To give the preachers an air of profoundness? While the "laymen", the "ignorant", just stumbles in the dark? To further establish the grip it already has?

All misery in the world, the damned state the world is in now, can be directly traced back to ancient Greek and its great philosophers.

disappears forever — Bitter Crank

That's what you think. The body brain and physical world can reappear again after a new big bang. How much we don't like this, it will still happen.

Aristotle started the trend by pointing out that the world cannot possibly have been created out of nothing — Olivier5

It's like the concept of charge nowadays. Charge is the cause of motion and it can be pure consciousness, or an fundamental form of it. His notion of the eternal circular motion is the predecessor of the modern concept of the ideal clock, which was the actually the pre-inflationary state of the universe. Add his pre quantum physics... Artistotle, my man!

In other words 3 protons (the Son, the Father, the Holy Spirit). — Agent Smith

Proton=first
Alpha=omega=Proton
Proton=last

The Father=First
The Son=at Last
The Holy Spirit=Unifying

PPP:
The First, The Last, The in-Between

DUO
Discernable, Undiscernable, One

Thus:

The Holy Trinity=The Holy Duo

3=2
3=1

It follows,

1=2

I knew it!

I could also have written: 35467 identical particles. That's the strange stuff. Any time you can discern the number of particles, at no time they exist on their own.

1. The indiscernibility of identicals. A done deal!

2. The identity of indiscernibles. Jury's still out! — Agent Smith

In the context of quantum mechanics, two identical particles can't be discerned. One can put no label on them and the one of next moment can be the one before. You simply cannot say the identical particles have a separate continued existence in spacetime.

It's frustrating if you see so clearly what time is and no one understands what you mean. I wish Aristotle was alive. He comes very close!

A yes. The observer. That ugly remnant of bygone physics. Simply meaning people who look, but giving an air of objectivity. The clock is invented. A truly periodic process does not exist. As I wrote, such a thing is only present before the inflationary phase of the big bang. Nevertheless we try to construct. The caesium clock being most close. A truly periodic pendulum does not exist, nor any other physical process. We compare irreversible processes with this imaginary clock clock and say that the process moves through time, which is nonsense. We actually put such clock beside the processes, look where the clock points to ("43.75 periods, seconds) and say the process has moved. This procedure is mentally objectified by creating an "objective" time axis. We can project this (ideal) clock beside all processes. All processes are irreversible (you can't reverse all motions in the process). You can even project this clock way back to the beginning. You can't say by looking at that clock which direction in time it goes. It can run forward or backward. That's why it's a perfect, imaginary clock with a constant period. Why shouldn't it exist if we project it back mentally. Well, the process you put it next to was really there. Before inflation the state of the universe constituted a perfect clock. If you would put mentally a clock beside that state it has no direction in time, as it is just like that clock, a perfectly periodic process (corresponding to the vacuum bubbles of the two basic massless fields and photon and gluon fields, all represented by closed propagator loops). It are people who compare different stages of an irreversible process with a clock, by means of our memory.

Jeeezus! For real? Just burn every dollar! I'll help you light it!

Great! How was philosophy useful then? Ah. It's in your question!

What did you engineer?

I prefer (anti-supernaturalistic) philosophy grounded in, or consistent with, current physics — 180 Proof

You have a reason for this,?

perhaps the best policy is : "don't worry about it, it is what it is". :joke:

BTW, what do you think it is? — Gnomon

I think there are two kinds of times, mutually exclusive. Entropic time and perfect clock time. The PCT constitutes the Planck sized pre-inflationary 3D space. This time has no direction. Only fluctuating. There were not yet irreversible processes to measure, quantify, with this clock. When the volume banged into real particles (the 3D structure inflated into 4D, which got enough negative curvature by a preceding bang that had accelerated far away enough) the perfect clock turned into entropic time.

How can time cause change?

I answered that question.

Say I am the collection of particles in a collection of surrounding particles. It seems clear that in such scenario I will not return in this universe.

But what if a new universe comes to be behind this one, in a new big bang. Why shouldn't the new particles there condense in a new me? This wouldn't be possible in two parallel universes because my parallel copy can't be me. Suppose all particles in our universe get lost, leaving photons only. Wouldn't the collection of newly condensed particles into me actually be me?

Oh, and artists are often appalled by what sells — Tom Storm

Why? Isn't that what they want?

I don't know why but I always had a better feeling about Aristotle than about Plato and I don't know why. Somehow I blame Plato maybe for the view that we can't make contact with reality. Aristotle was down to Earth.

Hey! If you charge me then jgill should be charged too!

Aristotle believed in a highly abstract supreme God of pure form and pure self-awareness, who was the ultimate cause of movement and change in the universe but was himself unchanging. This idea was the result of his own philosophizing.

It's like the concept of charge nowadays. Charge is the cause of motion and it can be pure consciousness, or an fundamental form of it. His notion of the eternal circular motion is the predecessor of the modern concept of the ideal clock, which was the actually the pre-inflationary state of the universe. Add his pre quantum physics... Artistotle, my man! :cool:

Imagine the confusion when Schrödinger's cat is observed by Wigner's friend who doesn't know that Heisenberg, being measured by Pauli, is secretly looking. It is in this spooky realm we have to look for the quartet paradox.