So you were on the nose with your earlier remark about scales of observation. — apokrisis

It's what's happening to Schrodinger's cat when he's not being observed that's the problem. :razz:

Whereas the idea of a formal collapse is as prevalent — Andrew M

I know it's prevalent. I was asking if it's declining in popularity.

The Fifty Year Wound

I don't have a connection. It sounds fascinating though.

Yep. It's an excellent book. He also explains the lengths the CIA went to to kill Castro. It's worth the read just for that.

You grew up in HK?

Objectivity need not - does not - require that we all see the same thing. It does require that our explanations be consistent. — Banno

The challenge QM gives us, at least with the Copenhagen interpretation, is nature of a system that's in superposition. The problem is that it has no particular state. This isn't what we usually imagine when we think about the universe.

This interpretation isn't necessarily correct, but it's an example of what QM suggests about the reality of our universe.

Wigner's friend is one of the problems associated with wave function collapse. It may be that there is no "collapse."

Actually they are when it comes to quantum physics. — Darkneos

:up:

The US wanted a stable world after WW2 more than the free trade, which it didn't really need. It was a way to hardwire a more peaceful set-up that could also pay for its own rebuild. — apokrisis

Most people in the US govt thought the British and French Empires were going to come back after WW2. It took a while for it to sink in that they weren't.

The idea started to take root that communism would grow until the British and Americans had no one to make a profit off of but each other. That was the genesis of the idea of the US taking the place of the British Empire.

Any source on that? — apokrisis

The Fifty Year Wound, Derek Leebaert

Making that the default US mission was surely more profitable for the US defence industry than promoting any particular wars? — apokrisis

No doubt. That mission was the fallout of the demise of the British Empire, which had the job of securing the infrastructure of global trade prior to WW2.

Sometime around 1949 a secret study was performed by the US govt to determine the cost of taking the place of the British. The study said the figure was uncountable, so they mulled over whether they could do the job of the British with nuclear weapons.

At the time, they thought the Russians were like some kind of super-efficient insect hive that would far outstrip the US in terms of production by the year 2000.

They were a little clueless, but anybody in their shoes probably would have been.

Nah, the One is not conscious on its own, and creation spreads out, further and further from intellect into the darkness of matter. Then starts a return journey to the One. This is the original Eternal Return. There's no solipsism in there.

So a human is a tiny god?

Also you misspelled emanation.

That is your conclusion frank. But again it’s subject to interpretation if there is only divine mind and we’re all manifestations of it then solipsism has a case.

Should I elaborate ? — Deus

The human mind is supposed to be a dim reflection of the divine mind. How do you pull solipsism out of that?

I think, in the Western tradition, idealism-solipsism goes back to, or starts with, Neoplatonism wherein only the One is real and all others are merely "emenations" (ideas) of One (nous) — 180 Proof

The Nous is the first emanation of the One. It's along the lines of the divine mind. There's no solipsism in there.

I don't think world events are significantly determined by world leaders because the world has continued on one almost unerring trajectory in terms of the concentration of wealth and power for decades and yet leaders come and go every four or five years. — Isaac

I don't think events are always determined by lone individuals, but sometimes they are. I remember being a little shocked to learn how the whims of powerful people can profoundly impact the lives of millions of people. I didn't want to believe it at first, you know, you want to think there's planning and strategies and counter strategies.

In general, I agree that large scale events happen because of a soup of diverse agendas, some of which ally with each other.

The reason wealth continues to become concentrated is that some people are just acquisitive by nature. In any time they're born to, they'll discover how to become rich. Only a system that forces redistribution will keep them in check.

That's my two cents worth anyway. :nerd:

The aim was not to distinguish. I agree that pretty much all wars serve this purpose — Isaac

Think about what would have happened if Trump was president when Putin invaded. The US wouldn't have supported Ukraine. But we have Biden, so the US did.

In this case, the outlook of the US Commander in Chief is the deciding factor, not the lust of arms dealers, though yes, they are a material cause of the war, as their kind is for all wars.

If you're saying the US is particularly subject to the influence of war profiteers, you may be right. Still, they can't start wars all by themselves (usually).

It's clear to me I've made my point no matter how obstinate you are. Nuff said. — T Clark

As Banno would say, you're unavailable for learning. :sad:

Arms dealers and elites profit off every military action since Noah's dog was a pup. They grease the tracks for war. Wars can't be distinguished from one another by pointing to this factor.

If someone claims we don't presently have the means to test theories, that's just an observation, and a correct one.

If someone wants to claim that no quantum theories can be tested even in principle, that's a positive claim and requires some support. It's a strong claim, so it needs strong support.

You just misunderstood the quote, that's all. No biggie.

So it was now or never. Makes sense.

Of course, seeing as this invasion has served US interests so perfectly — Isaac

I don't think it has in the long run. It's demonstrated Russia's military weakness and economic vulnerability. That's bad for the region in terms of stability.

It's made Russia more of a client state to China.

The US infrastructure could have used that 19 bn, but that's how it always goes.

Likely because the Russians felt time was running out. — Tzeentch

Why running out?

It comes down to Biden, I think. Biden led the sanctions drive. I think if Trump was the president, the EU would have had a more muted response with the the US actually cheerleading Russia's conquests.

I don't quite get why Putin did this while Biden was president. Maybe he thought Biden was old and so he wouldn't respond?

Do you think the idea of a collapse is on the way out?

There's no way yet. It hasn't been established that there's no way in principle.

It is my understanding that there is no empirical way to determine which, if any, are correct, even in principle — T Clark

That's not true.

Are you serious or sarcastic right now? I think solipsism being true would be the end of any sort of science. — Darkneos

There aren't any quantum theories that assert solipsism afaik.

Sooooo you're saying Quantum Mechanics essentially says solipsism is true? — Darkneos

That's exactly right! What do I have to do to convince you that there's nobody here but me?!

entity realism" asserts the real existence of unobserved entities. — Joshs

Oh. Think about Schrodinger's cat. That about sums up what the Copenhagen interpretation says about unmeasured entities. Today we say measurement doesn't have to involve a conscious entity. Did Bohr know that in 1929? I don't know. It's something that was established long after Bohr's time, but he may have had that intuition.

He provides evidence that Bohr was an entity realist — Joshs

Could you explain what that means?

The point is that these authors believe there is strong overlap in their ideas. You apparently disagree. — Joshs

Kant suggested we're creating that which we call reality. John von Neumann (I think more so than Bohr or Heisenberg) believed something similar. The reasons are pretty different though.

I just disagree that the Copenhagen interpretation can be characterized as an "assimilation of Kant.".

It says that and also speculates on “a direct Kantian influence on Bohr”. So it is suggesting both. — Joshs

Didn't exactly demonstrate that, did it?

Reread my last post in which I quoted your hypocrisy. — 180 Proof

Yeah?

Now look who's talking down ... Projection is a hell of a drug — 180 Proof

I'm a hypocrite. Shoot me.

That should be its sole responsibility, within the bounds of the law. — Xtrix

I don't think the law dictates how society prioritizes its resources (although I'm not sure that's what you meant). Economic policy is usually formed by the legislative and executive branches. Both are in a sense bound by law, but they're also ground zero for the formation of the law, and so above it.

Embedded liberalism was supported by Marxists and socialists. If it had continued to evolve, the US would be more leftist right now. Those who targeted it for destruction claimed that it was collectivism at it's worst and was bound to lead to some kind of slavery in America. The characterization of it as socialist isn't unacceptable.

That quote isn't saying that Bohr was influenced by Kant. It's just saying people have noticed parallels. Wherever those parallels may be, the fact remains that there is no thing in itself in the Copenhagen interpretation. It's actually 100 times more bizarre than anything Kant ever thought up.

The idea that we can learn about reality by examining a priori conceptions of time and space is Einstein. If Heisenberg echoed that sentiment, it doesn't indicate Kantian influence.

There are so many variants of realism that different philosophers adhere to that it is possible to accommodate QM within one or more of them. — Joshs

True. My point was that if we want to answer the OP successfully, we should tune into what he or she is thinking of as reality.

As far as the quotes in the OP making what is observed dependent on the existence of the observer, this shows an assimilation of Kant’s work on noumenon and phenomenon , concept and sensation, and the inaccessibility of the thing in itself. — Joshs

I don't think so. The Copenhagen interpretation (especially John von Neumann's view) is not Kant. There is no thing in itself. There is no determinate thing prior to wave function collapse, and we have a clear idea of the math that describes what's there prior to collapse.

I suspect it would hurt them even more if hope triumphed. — Olivier5

Why?

To argue corporations should conduct their business and decide what to produce based on community needs is socialism through and through. — Xtrix

It's in line with embedded liberalism. The main practical argument for it is that it should protect a capitalist economy from breakdowns like the Great Depression.

It's really an eye opener to learn why this system, which was the norm from 1945-1970 finally failed.

think the wound you speak of is the idea that politicians are all equally bad, and therefore that there can be no hope from politics. This idea is painful to hold, as it tells us we are powerless collectively. Especially so when one sees other folks still believing in a collective or another, and fighting for a cause.

It's cause envy. — Olivier5

Raw nihilism trying to blot out what is perceived as hope, because it hurts too much to see hope killed one more time.

gulp