The United States has not threatened Sweden or Finland, but I think they may be the rare exceptions. — FreeEmotion

We just didn't know those were real countries. We'll be right over.

Don't watch any of those. It will rot your brain. Just read newspapers.

I see what you're saying.

Russia seems to have nothing to offer its clients but total economic stagnation (per capita, Russians have fallen behind China, in absolute terms, the economy of Russia is now smaller than Canada). — Count Timothy von Icarus

This is in line with what I've been reading. I thought maybe taking Ukraine was part of a plan to revitalize the economy?

You can take it from me, that a young Polish boy growing up in anything but a Polish neighborhood "caught hell" on a daily basis, being continually assaulted with "dumb polack" — Joseph Zbigniewski

Just for the record, if you grew up in America, you know good and well that this is about Pollocks, not slavs in general. I have no idea how the dumb pollack thing got started.

I interact daily with Czechs, Poles, Russians, and what have you. There's no racism. They're just white people with funny accents.

I think there is a causal or correlatory relationship between the world and our sensory experiences that produce these beliefs and/or mind states. I haven't thought much of it beyond this. — Sam26

In terms of behavior, we aren't blank slates. Biology would suggest that some hinge propositions are genetic in origin.

But we can't reasonably say that sense data arranges itself into ideas. Neuroscience suggests that there is some sort of ideation ROM that we bootstrap up from as we leave infancy and begin to think rationally. From there, truth becomes significant because we know what falsehood is. We hypothesized and we were wrong. We were told there's a Santa and that was wrong. It's out of this that truth means something, although logic says that truth is very primal, too basic to even define.

But at this point, we turn and notice that all I've just said rests upon untestable hinge propositions. Part of the connotation of "true" is that it's something solid I can push off from. To the extent that I'm confidently pushing off from hinges as I speak, I can say they qualify as true.

I guess my answer would be: yes and no. Depends on how you look at it.

Yep, was mainly just making the point that those numbers apply to the Soviet Union as a whole, that very large numbers of them were not Russian. — jamalrob

You're probably right. I'm calling all Soviets Russians. Thanks for the heads up.

I think you mean Soviet citizens, many of whom died in the famine in Ukraine. I don’t think there’s a consensus on whether that was genocide. — jamalrob

An estimate from a British historian who spent two years in Russia looking at records is that there were about 37 million unnatural deaths from 1917 to the 1950s. I subtracted the 15 million who died during WW2.

The famine following the revolution was engineered by the government.

I would not call it genocide or attempted genocide. It was an attempt to crush opposition to communism.

Just about any US foreign intervention will do. In any case, off topic. — StreetlightX

Nope. So Isaac has owned up to conscious intellectual dishonesty. All you lack is the admission.

You don't need a neoliberal mastermind when a generalized profit imperative - we call it capitalism - will do. — StreetlightX

If you're saying capitalism=neoliberalism, then we aren't talking about the same thing. I'm talking about Hayek.

That's the difference between idiot psychologizers who think politics functions like Harry Potter, and an understanding of state power in service of a dominant class structure. — StreetlightX

If you don't employ psychology, then you aren't going to understand the world around you.

I suspect that applying a little psychology might humanize Americans for you to the point that you can shovel your abyss of rage toward them. They need to be a Sauron-like It to serve your purposes.

You can equivocate between a literal single person and globally spanning empire with mutiple, recorded genocides on its hands if you like, but let's be clear that the equivocation is yours and yours alone. — StreetlightX

What are calling genocide? Lenin and Stalin killed 20 million Russians, and that was not a genocide. What are you calling genocide?

frank

Mm, and who do you think the think tanks think for exactly? American Senators are not paid to understand. They are paid to implement policy. — StreetlightX

It's one little US government and a whole world to exploit. It's all much more dynamic and rough than you're making it out to be.

And this brings me back to my central rant core:

If we're going to nod and say we understand why Putin just created half a million refugees and warn that villainizing him obscures the truth, you can't in the same breath villainize the US.

If you're committed to understanding, then fucking try to understand.

There isn't a Neoliberal Mastermind somewhere telling the US government what to do. There are specific reasons the US's embedded liberalism gave way to neoliberalism and one of the factors was that American leftists tripped over themselves into failure. They handed victory to their opponents with their arrogant stupidity. So we could just as easily blame them for the refugees as anyone else.

end rant.

frank

Mm, a great prize or no, the aim of market creation and neoliberalization (i.e. privatization, austerity, destruction of workers rights and security) - which is not just an 'aim' but something actively happening and continuing to happen in Central Europe - is high up on the agenda. — StreetlightX

But that stuff comes from neoliberal think tanks. The average American senator voting for mitary aid to Ukraine or Poland doesn't understand any of that. At least I don't think they do.

I'm just saying the cold war made its mark.

Very few people have been talking about Ukraine's opening up of it's agriculture to foreign capital, and how, in Michael Roberts' words, institutions like the World Bank were "positively drooling at this opening up of Ukraine’s key industry to capitalist enterprise: [quoting the WB]: 'This is without exaggeration a historic event, made possible by the leadership of the President of Ukraine, the will of the parliament and the hard work of the government'." — StreetlightX

Yes. And I think once that happens to Ukraine, Russia is next target. I wasn't denying that. I just meant that there are prejudices that facilitate neoliberal exploitation.

And speaking of 'free markets and democracy', let's not forget how anglo 'shock therapy' was directly responsible for Russia being shitty country it is today: — StreetlightX

I think Putin overcame the 1990s pretty well. Free markets did help them recover from the Soviet collapse.

I think their energy relationships with Europe will be normalized quietly when this is over.

And you can thank Obama for that! — Olivier5

Yep.

I'll just leave that there, further comment being unnecessary I think. — Isaac

What?

So you guys have sorted it out yet? Can we say at long last that all this blood is on Obama's and Clinton's head? — Olivier5

Someone said that if you read comments from the Chinese Pinks you'd think the US just invaded Ukraine.

if the US and Europe do not have active imperialist interests apart from some kind of leftovers from the 1990s — StreetlightX

I don't think Europe or the US has ever seen central Europe as some great prize. I think at least one element of encroachment in Russia's sphere was fear of Russia on the one hand and belief that free markets and democracy would help them on the other.

When Putin became a dictator, anti-feminist and homophobic, it deepened the mistrust.

It's one element of what happened anyway.

It is also the case that you literally counted wrong, or simply made a false statement. — StreetlightX

Sorry. I was actually thinking that Kissinger and Chomsky remember the Cuban missile crisis. My thoughts came out muddled.

My point was that expansion of NATO started in the 1990s with a cold war mentality. Inertia carried it forward into the 21st Century.

You didn't see the ones from the 1990s?

The number of influential and knowledge people in the West who understood that what the West was doing would lead to fucking tragedy, is mind boggling — StreetlightX

That was interesting. A fair amount of that criticism was from the 1990s when American politicians were still thinking in terms of the cold war. I think the cold war permanently shaped those people.

The cartoon effect obscures understanding on both sides.

It was the Mongols last time. China this go around? Could be. :up:

The question is, though, is he popular (approval rating — FreeEmotion

He can't lose an election. They're rigged.

and has he broken any laws internationally? — FreeEmotion

A political realist would say there aren't any international laws. I lean in that direction.

This is another hint at his mental problems. There's no contingency plan for retreat, it almost seems to be "do or die". — Christoffer

Why do you think that?

No no, he is still the best for Russia, — Christoffer

He really has been though. Russia had to reinvent itself in the 1990s. There was no recipe for how to do it. Putin did a great job.

I see. Yes, at base, the nervous system doesn't deal with truth because there's no falsehood at the level of reflex.

Falsehood is a resident of passive reflection, and so is secondary.

He won't, it's too embarrassing — Christoffer

Then he should attack Ukraine as hard as possible now. Obliterate Kiev. The problem there is that he'd have to then occupy Ukraine (with American troops taking up residence).

Nah, he's going to have to retreat.

I wouldn't be surprised if Putin gets fucked by his people at some point. — Christoffer

I don't think so. He's been really good for Russia (up until last week :rofl:)

With the rate this is going, he won't be able to access anything soon. — Christoffer

Yep. Remember, Russia already has logistical challenges to a prolonged military campaign in Ukraine. Their industrial capacity is already maxed out, and now they're going to dive into a recession.

He's going to have to pull back.

First, I don't think hinge-propositions are propositions — Sam26

Yes. So you see language use as secondary to actions that are the real hinges. :up:

So he will probably sacrifice his people's economy, sacrifice Russia before admitting any kind of defeat — Christoffer

I don't think he wants that though. I thought Russia's debt would keep this from happening.

He helped give us 4 years of Donald Trump. Now half the global economy is going to crash his economy. :razz:

The ruble is worth less than one cent. This shit is getting real.

Remember Biden already promised to fuck up Putin over interference in American elections. This would be the time to do it.

It's making me wonder why Putin didn't do this while Trump was president. Trump would have just cheered him on.

The issue is if the weapons arrive in time before Ukraine is destroyed completely. Arming civilians sounds nice and brave but it sets them up to be massacred. — Manuel

They already have weapons with more on the way from Germany.

This week might prove crucial, depending on how much more resistance Ukraine has left. — Manuel

They're getting aid from several countries, so it will be a while.

:up:

As for apportioning blame, I don't see the point of whining about Obama's actions or inactions while folks are getting killed by Russian bullets and missiles. Only Trump and Isaac do that kind of obscenity. I trust the rest of us have some decency left. — Olivier5

:yikes:

It's true because my time-frame is a century or so. — StreetlightX

Then you need to read a history of the USSR.

Well the US is an infinitely worse country than Russia on the world stage so I reckon there's more leeway in getting it to fuck right off forever. — StreetlightX

If you widen your time frame to a century, you'll find this really isn't true.

. I know that it may come as a shock that the world is more complex than 'bad guy bad' and 'is good when good guy hurt bad guy' but that's kinda how things are. — StreetlightX

This is also true when the bad guy is the USA.

Can you explain what deal was reached?

I can’t, — NOS4A2

Oh

Or put him in a mock trial, if they get him. That he's target 1 and his family target 2 is quite probable. It's very logical to try to strike at the enemy leadership in war. — ssu

But would he become a martyr?

For some the "Revolution of Dignity" is still something orchestrated by the US, not a popular uprising that the US got involved (as usual) — ssu

The Jacobin article said it wasnt orchestrated by the US.

So will they kill Zelensky and his family?

After influencing a deal “Yats” did indeed become leader — NOS4A2

Can you explain what deal was reached?