So what Zelensky says as a soundbite is entirely meaningless. — boethius

Not entirely. But kudos for noticing the constitutional situation. Very reasonable of you.

Point well taken, I was not aware of that. Note that it happened after the first Russian invasion though. That a country being invaded would seek alliances is somewhat natural. — Olivier5

Ah. So I did know Zelensky had tried to emergently join, and I thought it was obvious why.

He's since let that go.

Zelensky's soundbite there is all over the news. I specifically picked an article that mentions it in the context of the Ukrainian constitution. Pundits say interpreting that statement (which is directed to Ukrainians) requires that context.

And he didn't state no hope of joining but he would consider letting the plan go if it would avoid war. — Benkei

Ok.

In any case, Zelensky's statement can't set aside the constitution or change established NATO policy. — Benkei

Correct.

Sorry guys, but if you wanted to discuss this sanely, you should have demonstrated that earlier. I can't deal with either of you.

before getting into the substance of that, why don't you share a source? — Benkei

Here.

Zelensky also clearly stated before the invasion that he had no hopes for joining NATO.

I think you might be on the verge of being semi-reasonable about this if you accept the above statement. :eyes:

Scholz said there were no plans to accept Ukraine into NATO, and

"That is why it is [peculiar] that the Russian government is making something that is practically not on the agenda the subject of major political problems"

Ketanji Brown Jackson. #116. — 180 Proof

:cool:

We'd probably need to get that directly from QAnon. :razz:

And what's really interesting is that the MOSSAD is not saying a thing... What are they hidding? — Olivier5

They're in on it. No doubt about it. George Soros, man. It all links up.

And as we all know, Josef Mengele was an American of Ukrainian origins, who never read Tolstoï. That should tell you something. — Olivier5

Oh yea. He'd never even heard of Dostoevsky.

What a lot of these "Putin bad" people don't get is that it's not Russians invading Ukraine. It's Americans! They're all blond, blue eyed, neo nazi Americans.

That's what's so dastardly about the whole thing. :grimace:

I think you meant to say that America is financing neo-nazi chemical warfare plants in Ukraine. Or biological warfare. But then, anthrax is actually made of chemicals, so it's probably the same thing.

the French tried to meddle in the US sphere of influence. — Olivier5

Well, the US is just a giant killing machine. If you piss it off, you get what you deserve. Obviously.

lacked the moral ingenuity to shoot first and think later... The French were absolutely disgusting in their defence of the right of the Iraqi people — Olivier5

So true. The French seemed to be friends of the Iraqi children, but they were really more like drug dealers, getting those children killed. Or more killed. More severely blown up than otherwise we would expect from a full scale invasion.

What bothers me is that while the US is actively bombing Iraq, killing children, orphaning children, and giving children a charred wreck to grow up in, this is the time to clearly condemn the US and Bush in particular if it turns out he made this decision against the will of his own government and people.

There will be plenty of time later to analyze how the US was provoked, which UN inspectors warned that Iraq was hiding something, why geopolitically, the war seemed to make sense before it all fell to pieces in an ISIS nightmare.

You know?

That's two in a row! What? Is Twitter down? jk

Hey! A post with no misinformation! :up:

Especially the Americans.
— Olivier5

Ok great, so what's you plan of action? — boethius

You got your condemnation of America. I'll pile mine on top of that.

It doesn't satisfy, does it? Why is that?

Targeting hospitals, shelling of cities randomnly is a warcrime. — ssu

Gut wrenching.

But you know Isaac has shown his true colors. Sad.

I think this is why right wingers gravitate to obvious liars: it is a sign of strength and status, to be able to tell such lies. The stronger one is, the bolder the lies one is able to tell. — hypericin

Like being bound to facts is a sign of weakness. Yep.

Note how frequently some posters misunderstand what we say here. It's done on purpose, evidently. They don't seriously try to reach understanding. That's not their goal. — Olivier5

It's abuse.

Fill the air with lies so nobody knows what to think. That's what the exploiters do to control the public.
— frank

It's just damage control, I suspect. The idea is to combat the rapid depreciation of Mr Putin's allure in the West and elsewhere, as swift as the ruble's on the currency market. — Olivier5

There's a theory that Putin and Trump express obvious lies as a means of domination. The relentless bullshit creates a fog of abuse.

I'd say refusing to admit a difference between financing and support of other kinds is along the same lines: "I deny any semblance of common ground with you. You aren't even human to me."

That kind of thing.

Fill the air with lies so nobody knows what to think. That's what the exploiters do to control the public.

They do it for profit. Some cumquats do it for free. :lol:

:up:

This isn't some democracy vs. autocracy battle. — Benkei

It likely is. Putin came to power by waging war. He needs a pretext for cementing his rule while his economy is stagnating. How about another useless war?

Putin is fighting the infectious disease of Democracy, making this war inevitable as long as self rule is what the Ukrainians want. The only way for Ukraine to have avoided this war was to abandon democracy and submit to Putin. What backed Putin into a corner is that his country sucks and no one wants to be a part of it. — Hanover

This is true. A democratically elected leader would try him for corruption. He can't go in that direction. Ever.

Where have I advised anyone to surrender? — Isaac

I'm going to have to ask you to stop war mongering and simmer down.

The Russians should follow your advice and surrender. :grin:

:clap:

I think it's important to say these things unambiguously, not just "not say otherwise". — Olivier5

Yep. Recognizing that we live with contradictions might help us with clarity. Maybe.

I was recently reading about the concept of the ethical dilemma, specifically of the sort where a particular action is right and wrong at the same time.

One view is that ethical dilemmas of this kind only exist for world leaders as they act to advance the interests of their countries in the context of competition for political survival.

I think this issue is in the background of the discussions in this thread, though we seem to want to avoid facing it. What makes this interesting to me is how and why parties get close to dealing with it.

Oh. OK.

I originally wasn't referring to him in particular — Baden

You mentioned my voting record, so,

For someone who likes to enjoy performative condemnation, you sure do alot of wiggling out of such performances when its people you like. — StreetlightX

wut

No, my point is it may have been just a soundbite for the gullible like most politician's campaign promises. Good night. — Baden

Oh. No, he just ended it.

Was this before or after the US$650 million arms deal with SA in November 2021? — StreetlightX

After. Liar.

Your point is that Biden didn't end the support quickly enough to avoid becoming partially responsible for the deaths of innocent people.

I appreciate your pointing that out.

It's bedtime.

Being Irish doesn't make you any more moral than any one else, frank nor does being Catholic, I'd wager. But thanks for the vote fo support, I guess. — Baden

Biden ended the support for the war against Yemen. The support came from Obama and Trump.

But yes. Some Irish people are scum.

don't think the exact figures are available on whatever discounts were involved but the principle of indirect financing here stands, regardless. — Baden

I think you actually know it means to finance something. :rofl: