If theism has no way of proving how the universe came into being, there is one possible explanation left. — Hanover

But theism has a way. The universe is work of gods. They were tired of eternal love and hate making. Created love and hate particles to eternally lay back in the heavenly jungles and eternally watch their creation work itself out. The human gods messed thing up a bit, to great discontent of the other gods. When you have found the basic stuff of the universe and the laws describing these workings, what else than gods are the conclusion of the origins of this matter and its laws,?

Argument from ignorance fallacy. — 180 Proof

On the contrary. It's an argument from gniorance. I used some Occam's shaving gel. Which left me with a clearly shaven face of the universe, free from traditional and contemporary bairdgrow beneath which it got buried last century.

Science concerns discomfirming evidence and not "proofs", lil D-Ker. — 180 Proof

Says who? Theories need proof. Falsification is important but only for arriving at the final theory. If arrived, after a lot of shaving and falsifying, confirmation is all that's left. At the same time, proof of gods has been established.

The truth-claims of theism have been repeatedly falsified by counter-evidences — 180 Proof

If you talk about miraculous healings, vìsions of Mary, or whatever, yes. Though I'm pretty sure the ancient Greek didn't take scientific proof seriously. Nor will reli-folks who claim to have seen Mary. The scientific proof of gods is science's own shortcoming in explaining where the laws and ingredients of the universe themselves came from. You call that reasoning from ignorance. While in fact it's from gnorance.

Loveya, 180 booze! :love:

Evidence against theism? Theist's conspicuous failure for millennia to soundly demonstrate that "there is at least one god" is true — 180 Proof

You have a preconceived notion of soundly demonstrating. If science has no way to demonstrate how the universe came into being, there is one possible explanation left. We theists might add that the stupidity of the laws of physics is sound secondary proof.

So, two independent proofs of the existence of gods. What proof science has that they don't exist? Zeronada, nonenienteziltch... :sparkle:

From Wikipedia:

"Relativism is a family of philosophical views which deny claims to objectivity within a particular domain and assert that facts in that domain are relative to the perspective of an observer or the context in which they are assessed."

I go one step further though. I don't deny any objective reality.

Is everything random, or are at least some things random? In every new universe, in an infinite series of them, the emergence of life is logical. That's what unìverses are for. Life is an inevitable development. The ways all life comes to be is random but, as might be expected, within the confines of possibilities.

This is not what you find if you look for “objective” in any dictionary. — Angelo Cannata

Of course not. But the western dictionary is based on a philosophy started by Xenophanes and Plato. In this philosophy the simultaneous existence of multiple objective realities is indeed a contradiction. But there is no need to conform to this philosophy.

objective" , in a rigorous philosophical way, means absolutely independent from anybody. — Angelo Cannata

That depends on the rigorous philosophy used. For you, objective reality it is an unknowable world, independent of human influences. I connect it with human influence, knowledge, ideas, worldviews, beliefs, etc. Your objective reality is one amongst many. Of course my philosophy about objective reality seems self contradictory. But only relative to yours. Judged by its own standards, its consistent.

When you say e.g. "helium is objective" you're communicating nothing anyone can use but if you say "helium is the second element on the periodic table" it becomes an actual proposition. — Shwah

Dunno Shwah. Helium is objective seems more an actual proposition than helium being the second element on the periodic table. Helium actually is objective. There is super fluid helium, gaseous helium, hot helium, helium for balloons, helium to talk funny with, etc. The proposition that it is a second element on a periodic table seems pretty far-fetched and extramundane.

Two identical 90Booze's, in parallel or serial identical universes, would be identical. You can't say who's who. They would be a 180booze couple. Scary thought...

The plurality of existence which is embedded in our brain — L'éléphant

Don't you think the plurality of existence, the manifold I, the we, is embedded between the manifolds of brains and physical worlds? Aren't all creatures, from ants, crickets, and squirrels, to people, giraffes, and green whales situated between these two worlds? And are their and our bodies not just the essence of their being?

Without determined process, we can't have free will in the first place. Processes in our brain and the outside physical world develop determined, like us in between. Does that make us non-free? No. If we are that determined bodily (i.e., that body) process there is nothing that makes us s puppet with strings attached. We are tied with uncuttable strings to brain and outside world, and both are necessary for us to exist, to walk, talk, sleep, dream, sing, and even philosophize. Only when we are forced, our free will can be imparted.

I see. What kind of creation do you mean? Like spontaneous creation out of nothing or would a human being creating a song or painting or a baby in their wombs count?
Do you believe in multiple gods then? — DingoJones

Creation out of nothing, indeed. But no spontaneously. Well, in a way it was...l I believe in multiple gods. Details will be revealed in a short story. I saw this forum offers the possibility to present them. Tom Storm gave me inspiration. Await my friend. The so eagerly looked for truth will be revealed once and for all.

a rigorous philosophical way, means absolutely independent from anybody. So, if you instead make it relative by adding "for me", it becomes contradictory — Angelo Cannata

That depends on your philosophical position in the objective field. If you consider reality, like initiated by Xenophanes and Plato, who started the trend, leading to the modern conception of a subject independent unique scientifically and asymptotically approachable objective world, the same for all, then yes. If you consider objective reality dependent on the subject, then no. In this concept of objective reality there is no contradiction.

If atheism were valid, atheists would not be able to open their mouths. They would have nothing to talk about. Atheism is in being a-theistic making them a-theists. — Gregory A

I don't follow. If atheism is valid wouldn't they be able to talk with mouths wide open and loud words? It are the theists who should be silent.

The invalidity of atheism does not validate theism, as naturalism may still be right, but atheism needs to be invalid for theism to be right. — Gregory A

This is confusing. The invalidity of atheism seems equivalent to the validity of theism. Is naturalism compatible with theism?

Anyhow, why should we listen to those who reject a God (a relatively simple addon) but then continue to believe in mermaids, unicorns etc — Gregory A

I'm not sure atheists believe in mermaids and unicorns. They can be found in principle while gods live in a world outside of the universe. But then again, maybe mermaids and unicorns live along with the gods.

Atheism is a rejection of free-speech (primarily another element of the Left). — Gregory A

That depends on the atheist and the power they possess. I'm a theist and an anarchist.

What is your definition of a god? — DingoJones

Creatures with the power of creation.

Did you send him an email and got no response? — universeness

Yes:

"Hi Sean Carroll! I was discussing on the philosophy forum. I'm writing about a cosmological model which tries to explain dark energy, particle/antiparticle asymmetry, mass generations, the nature of spacetime, etc. I think massless preons exist which make up quarks and leptons. Not as pointlike particles but as 6d structures of which three are curled up in Planck-sized circles (like circles on a cilinder). Their bindings in triplets creates massive quarks and leptons. In 3d they seem pointlike. Our universe contains equal numbers of both. 


The thing I wanna ask you about. If the universe consists of two infinite 4d spaces, divided by a Planck-sized wormhole (like the center of a torus, the torus being open on the outside), could it be two 3d universes are pushed into real existence from a virtual state? Like Hawking radiation? Could all matter (except gravity) be confined to 3d while expanding in a negatively curved 4d space (the Gaussian curvature on the mouth of a torus is negative). Maybe our universe is, together with a mirror universe (antiprotons, antineutrons, positrons, and antineutrinos) expanding from a central tiny mouth, and when the both have accelerated away to infinity, the stage is set for a new inflation around the mouth, and two 3d universes are spat out, which again expand to infinity, etcetera. Is there an argument that reasons against this? Thanks in advance!


He at least could have answered some thing...

From the link:

One increasingly hears rumors of a reconciliation between science and religion. In major news magazines as well as at academic conferences, the claim is made that that belief in the success of science in describing the workings of the world is no longer thought to be in conflict with faith in God. I would like to argue against this trend, in favor of a more old-fashioned point of view that is still more characteristic of most scientists, who tend to disbelieve in any religious component to the workings of the universe.

The title ”Why cosmologists are atheists” was chosen not because I am primarily interested in delving into the sociology and psychology of contemporary scientists, but simply to bring attention to the fact that I am presenting a common and venerable point of view, not advancing a new and insightful line of reasoning. Essentially I will be defending a position that has come down to us from the Enlightenment, and which has been sharpened along the way by various advances in scientific understanding. In particular, I will discuss what impact modern cosmology has on our understanding of these truly fundamental questions.

The past few hundred years have witnessed a significant degree of tension between science and religion. Since very early on, religion has provided a certain way of making sense of the world — a reason why things are the way they are. In modern times, scientific explorations have provided their own pictures of how the world works, ones which rarely confirm the pre-existing religious pictures. Roughly speaking, science has worked to apparently undermine religious belief by calling into question the crucial explanatory aspects of that belief; it follows that other aspects (moral, spiritual, cultural) lose the warrants for their validity. I will argue that this disagreement is not a priori necessary, but nevertheless does arise as a consequence of the scientific method.

Let's evaluate and criticize this introductory words of our beloved priest Carroll.

"... a more old-fashioned point of view that is still more characteristic of most scientists, who tend to disbelieve in any religious component to the workings of the universe."

Einstein and Hawking thought differently. We may add that a religious component doesn't necessarily mean a "component to the workings of the universe".

He writes:

"The past few hundred years have witnessed a significant degree of tension between science and religion"

This tension exists only between the biblical method of creation and the scientific method. The creation myth provided by science is just a description of the workings of creation, not of creation itself of which it by definition can't offer an explanation, no matter how advanced our theories or how small the gap or its closure. We simply don't know how gods let it be.

"In modern times, scientific explorations have provided their own pictures of how the world works, ones which rarely confirm the pre-existing religious pictures."

Indeed. How it works. No picture is offered to how the universe came to be. Stupid matter can't pull itself into existence.

Pope Carroll continues:

"Roughly speaking, science has worked to apparently undermine religious belief by calling into question the crucial explanatory aspects of that belief"

Then, roughly speaking, science is apparently undermining itself. It can offer no explanation for the existence of the universe it describes. Not because we don't understand the workings yet (and I'm pretty convinced I do already now, no haughtiness implied!) but we can't understand in principle.

Should I continue? Carroll is just a priest in disguise, proselytizing souls to turn to his apodictical creation myth, standing further from the truth than the wildest fantasies our contemporary religious friends.

No bad feelings @universeness. Everyone rows his boat how they want.

Line + Circle = Sine wave (?) — Agent Smith

Wheels of a car moving?

Time has an odd geometry: it's linear & circular. If it's 5:00 PM today, it's again 5:00 PM (circular), but tomorrow (linear). Line + Circle = Sine wave (?) — Agent Smith

Wise words, comrad Philos Agentus. Seems time starts all over again every mornig. To pbrase the wise words of comrad @butimfeeling2022, "over and over again". Being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast 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forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, , linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, , linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward, being born, linear progress, sleep, fast regress, awaking, linear progress, death, fast forward, fast reset, fast toward... etcetera. I think you get my point made. Maybe I understand hyperclocking now!

Letting people die when you can take action to save them is immoral. — Howard

According to whose moral? Is there a universal standard?

"Forced tickle torture can cause real physical and mental distress in a victim, which is why it has been used as an interrogation method or to simply show dominance over another person. Usually tickling is done on feet and armpits after tying the person's ankles and wrists. The recipient is also often stripped to their underwear."

Which will not only conspire to deprive males of their lives, females of their freedoms but along with that (all) faiths not worshiping God the Mother. — Gregory A

You must have had some pretty bad experiences! Do they make you worship the Mother God? Praised is her name.

I highly recommend the following musings of Sean Carroll — universeness

I refuse categorically to read one more word of the good man. Besides him being obviously wrong about the universe (though he has a good view of general relativity) and time simply exists, he at least could have answered some of the questions I asked. Those guys seem to think they're living in some home-made ivory castle from which they won't descend and from which they keep the folks living down, who they call the ignorant lay persons, entering, in fear that they threaten their construction. Meanwhile they keep the folk in awe with their so-called fundamental knowledge, creating an atmosphere in which they play the role of initiated priests in the church of wisdom, chanting the bibles of science written and invented by their illustrious progenitors, selling it as the new god image we should bow to, while in fact they want us to bow to them.

Whatever objective you think you found is interpreted by you, so how can you say that it is objective? — Angelo Cannata

You can always say: "for me or us, it's an objective truth."

You missed the point of my argument about the existence of dreams. And you totally did not get the dreams/dreaming exist. There's no doubt about it, people dream. My point of saying that while dreams exist, and people really do dream, we cannot show proof that we're dreaming. Yes, maybe a brain scan of a person dreaming might show some active parts of the brain through imaging, but the imaging wouldn't show the "dream" itself, only that the person's part of the brain is at the moment active. — L'éléphant

By the same token, can you proof to me that you are awake and not dreaming?

But unlike faith or belief-based hypotheses, scientific hypotheses can be progressed into accepted fact! — universeness

Scientific hypotheses can have faith-based hypothesis for inspiration. If you know the gods you know the universe. As such, theism is indispensable for science. "How would the gods have made this particle act?" This question stood at the base for my massless matter fields view.

I'm working lately at an experimental prose style that is dense with suggestiveness. — lll

It's impossible not to notice! Great! It was clear immediately you like language. Words are the closest to miracles! Oh wonderful words! Keep them symbols coming buddy! Paint you black on white art on my screen.

Imagine the universe, just for the sake of simplicity, an expanding cloud of gas particles which occupied a small volume initially. The small volume is the begin state. The second law of TD is a time asymmetrical law. It states that the gas spreads over the volume of space, because there are way more possibilities for gas to exist in a large volume than in a small volume, given the speed distribution of the gas corpuscules. If we reverse the velocity of each corpuscule though, the gas evolves towards smaller volumes, i.e. time will be reversed. It might be clear that the gas cannot stand still in space, unless all particles have zero velocity. So time's arrow could have forward direction, after being shot from the bow, as well as backward direction, the arrow flying back to the bow (Stephen Hawking once erroneously suggested that when the expansion of the universe turns to implosion, the arrow would be send back to the bow). Experience tells us that the arrow flies forwards though. But why? Because it does and it can't be otherwise for us to exist? Is it the miraculously fine fine-tuning required?

mound and mutter are two sites of the same con.' — lll

Coin or con?

As Sean Dough might say, 'mound and mutter are two sites of the same con.' — lll

We're not close. We're are on top of each other! That's exactly how I have put it. The mound side though seems to roar its tail in the dark. The dark side of the medal.

Thinking about someone you haven't seen in years showing up around the corner
— EugeneW

:lol: — Agent Smith

Was it just coincidence?

That's sort of what I mean by 'mound' and 'mutter.' This has 'mind' contaminated with stuffishness and 'matter' contaminated with language (mindish stuff.) — lll

We're getting close, my friend! Mound and mutter. The village and the mother. Every village needs a soul, every soul needs a village. Brain structures determine the world, the world determines brain structures.

Why is it a false assumption. It's proven that genes are the determiners of our physical makeup. We use genes? — Agent Smith

Yes. They don't determine anything and certainly don't involve themselves in programming. Life, being based in proteins, once had the great insight to use them. In every cell they offer the means to provide specific proteins when needed. They're altruist little wokkels!

The outside world is as private (public) as the inside world is public (private). Both are as public as private. Mutually knibbling, gnawing, and biting each other.

Given that we're all human, we all have the same genes, genes that determine, at the very least, our general physical structures (including the brain), — Agent Smith

I think this is a false assumption. Genes don't program. We just use them. They're ßupplying us, together with the ribosomes, with the proteins where we need them.

How so? By simply not talking about them? — lll

Back again. Had to run for the trash takers. Forgot to put the paper container on the street.

I think by assuming that epistemic cut. It's an artificial cut for which there is no evidence. It's a chimerian cut. Laying at the basis though of science and many modern art (art being the ability of expressing "the most private personal emotions and feelings").

What's your take on telepathy? — Agent Smith

The difficulty with proving telepathy is that it doesn't occur in controlled experimental set-ups. So goes the argument. I had weird experiences though. Thinking about someone you haven't seen in years showing up around the corner.

The 'dream itself' is 'logically' (grammatically) inaccessible. — lll

Everything itself is inaccessible. But a thing in itseĺf can't exist. We both see the fly messing around in the empty glass of milk. We both hear him. Likewise we both have dreams. We made them private and inaccessible.

But I think it's better to look at the way this sign 'pain' is traded publicly — lll

Not sure I understand what you mean by "sign pain". What you mean?

By the way, I had no dreams tonight that I remember now. I could have had them though, and probably had. You'll have to take my word as proof.

Yes, like there are theist materialists. Their matter differs from atheist material.

I'm not saying I am an idealist am trying to describe the argument properly — Tom Storm

Yes, I know. Im not saying you are. Im imagining we are. Just like being a theist or atheist.

Well;, it's not quite solipsistic because it is not saying 'only I exist'. It is saying we all share the same illusion — Tom Storm

But then you make everyone a solipsist. If I'm a product of your mind, you assume someone behind that product?

For me the question sometimes might be: what is it we have reason to doubt? Not so much what is it we don't have proof for. — Tom Storm

Then why you are an atheist? I think it's the kind of gods you doubt. The omnibus gods. What is it you have reason to doubt, apart from the moral aspect?