Then it still needs a reason it exists. — Hillary

If the universe always existed then why does it need a reason?

How you know there wasn't? Scientific dogma tells you that. — Hillary

What science says the world always existed?

Im no Christian. I dont believe in God. — Hillary

That's nice.

How do you know? — Hillary

How do you know there was? Just a Christian dogma.

But how did it create itself? — Hillary

There was no creation.

The universe is made from non-intelligent dead basic material — Hillary

Not true.

Potential design (morph=pattern) — Gnomon

I am not sure about your use of potential to refer to form. Aristote never talks that way.

"Hyle" was the kind of stuff he discussed in The Physics, — Gnomon

In the Physics he names four causes. Material, Formal, Efficient, Final. Anything physical has a material and formal cause.

But what did Ari mean by "form"? — Gnomon

Physical objects have matter and form. Our thought has the form. An apple on the table has matter and form, our thought of the apple has form only.

It's my interpretation. — Gnomon

Okay. But for Aristotle matter only exists with form.

As Aristotle realized, our real world consists of both Actual stuff (matter) and Potential essence (EnFormAction : the power to enform). — Gnomon

I do not think this is Aristotle. Physical stuff is matter and form.

Then what do you see? — Hillary

What I just said.

Do you? — Hillary

You are saying nothing and are very inarticulate.

Not to posit yourself opposite to nature. — Hillary

I see.

To act naturally, in agreement with nature. — Hillary

What is that agreement, exactly?

Against the natural eternal objective moral. — Hillary

Which is?

Natural morality. — Hillary

Humans are not natural?

Without an objective moral standard, we can’t say that moral “progress” can be made (i.e. that abolishing slavery was somehow a good thing) — Paulm12

Some areas of morality can advance. But as a nation, for every move forward there is always move backwards.

you can discern man-made morality as a mere illusion, — Hillary

What other morality is there?

Absolutely agree. I refer to Aristotle for this one: “it is the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it”. — Benj96

Brilliant. I love Aristotle.

False fears (which "the faithful" are socialized to communally self-medicate with ritualized false hopes). — 180 Proof

Religion is a social practice regardless of the system or dogma.

I like your approachability and curiosity. I sometimes think the philosophers here are most jaded and set in their beliefs/ not willing to entertain much outside their own line of thinking — Benj96

Philosophy is about learning, not proving one is right.

Whether it's objective or subjective, or whatever form it comes, morality is a set of principles that needs reconciling with other sets of moral principles. And this is an ongoing thing. — L'éléphant

Yes, agree. When I debate anti-abortion people I always ask them how it comports with their other moral ideas. (They never respond.)

My question is, does it really matter if morality is objective or subjective? I do not think so.

True he was a bit more involved in the outcome. — Benj96

Oedipus was solely responsible. But your other comments are welcome and worth discussing.

Okay, but the gods can be just like people or animals. Who says there is one Super Omni Monster God? — Hillary

You keep ignoring my actual comments.

Indeed. It has to do with the western god image. — Hillary

Please do not tell me what I believe.

To tie this back to the OP, could it be said that many historical figures were subject to this “Oedipus Rex syndrome” in that their goal or personal moral obligation to upturn the status quo or greatly shift social beliefs inadvertently placed them in the gravest of dangers? — Benj96

Good observation, something to consider. However, Oedipus was himself the cause of the problem.

That's because of the western conception of god or the scientific religion ruling supreme. Richard Dawkins and the likes are revolting against gods because their incapacity to understand and by revolting they show their obedience to science, trying to get the respect of that of the genius physicist they always so aspired to be but lack the genius for. — Hillary

It has nothing to do with science.

Oedipus Rex is a man who inevitably sacrificed his perfectly good life in pursuit of the greater good. — Benj96

Oedipus was the king and therefore obligated to seek justice. But no matter what he did or did not do fate determined the outcome.

(No) help is on its way! I'm on my own! — Agent Smith

ok

Psychosis (theism) or Suffering (atheism). — Agent Smith

Please explain. Atheism causes suffering?

Why did Jews NOT lose their faith in a (benevolent) God? — Agent Smith

It is a mystery to me why anyone believes in a benevolent God.

That might be but gods are not subject to logic. — Hillary

Therefore whatever you want to ascribe to gods cannot be false?

But we are not mistaken about what is the concept of smoke, right? Those characteristics are collateral — javi2541997

If I understand you, yes. Smoke clouds can look like an actual cloud. Speaking empirically from major fire in New Mexico.

Example. I see smoke in the distance. Is it smoke from a fire? Is it a cloud? Dust in my eye? It is something.

The discussion of hallucination in the philosophy of perception is puzzling to me. The actual occurrence of hallucinations is quite rare and mostly in the severely mentally ill. The question is not whether what I perceive is real but what kind of thing is being perceived.

Nietzsche literally advocates for slavery and many are other horrible practices in this book, the Greek state. It's also one of his earliest work, so you can't accuse his sister of tempering it — Wittgenstein

"Accordingly, we must learn to identify as a cruel-sounding truth the
fact that slavery belongs to the essence of a culture: a truth, granted, that
leaves open no doubt about the absolute value of existence. This truth is
the vulture which gnaws at the liver of the Promethean promoter of
culture." (Genealogy; The greek state)

The Greek state" — Wittgenstein

Okay. I've read almost everything of Nietzsche and cannot recall him ever talking about slavery.

Okay, you mean the Genealogy of Morals. Is there a specific part you can refer to?

I don't think "the mind" is a thing; rather, its an abstraction of all the processes that we categorize as mental. — Relativist

As Hume said, the mind is a heap of perceptions.