I think that would count as a mitigation or perhaps excuse. It doesn't justify the act; it only explains the motive.A strong justification could be an individual selling drugs to fund medical care for a dying family member. — Down The Rabbit Hole
So you think that sustaining their living is not a justification because the risks from making changes are not risky enough? — Apustimelogist
Only I didn't ask that question, and I don't think the OP was asking how the farmer justifies his living, but how the consumer justifies his food choices. That's just a guess, of course.That seems implied when you gave the question: "How can we still justify... " — Apustimelogist
Most agribusiness is not owned by 'a farmer'. Many farms are held by families, so the decisions are made by several senior members. The living they provide can be precarious, but many of these farmers have changed their methods according to the consumers' changing preferences and to reduce their dependence on suppliers. However, the corporate investors don't need to be responsive to public sentiment or local market conditions.I guess it depends on economics. I'm sure if more ethical choices were economically more lucrative, farmers would jump on it. I can't speak for whether such possible changes present significant economic risk to farmers that threaten thwie livelihoods. Possibly for some in some places. — Apustimelogist
I don't think any comparison to nature is valid. We took ourselves out of nature a long time ago, and have done everything our clever imagination could invent to protect ourselves from nature. The only thing nature gives animals that we refuse them is liberty - one of the things we most prize for ourselves.Just so, and well farmed animals will suffer less stress, be better fed, and protected from disease and parasites than their wild cousins. — unenlightened
That must be comforting.Often I feel we project our own capacity to suffer onto animals but I think we're far worse off in terms of our capacity to suffer. — Nils Loc
With excellent reason. As Mark Twain said: "Humans are the only animal that blushes - or needs to."Humans are probably the most angst ridden animal in the history of Earth. — Nils Loc
Ours wasn't that hard. After we moved to the country, my SO asked where to build the chicken coop. I said I didn't want chickens. "Why not?" "Who's going to kill them? Not me!" "Me either. But wait, that's hypocrisy, having other people do your killing." "Yes, it is." "So what's the alternative?"I've often admired vegetarianism, and have even tried to 'go vegetarian' for quite long periods, but living in a meat-based culture, and having been brought up consuming meat, it's hard to find the motivation to continue with it. — Wayfarer
Please do not hesitate to make several arguments at once. — LFranc
If you start with some fairly implausible premises, yes. God exploded and bits of his body have been decaying ever since. Nice.Looking at the universe in this way may make more sense. — Thales
Ah, I see. No, individual people don't vote for "society" or "values"; they vote according to their personal concerns. Special interest blocs, such as business and churches launch propaganda campaigns to convince people that their own interests are endangered by someone else's. For example, drugs were not an issue for voters until after Anslinger declared a crusade against marijuana n the 1930's - because Prohibition was ending, and a new scapegoat had to replace alcohol, for a great big government agency to enforce. Much mileage was got from it by the Nixon administration and again by Reagan. The same kind of things happened with abortion and equal marriage: nobody much cares, until a political faction (to curry favour with a religious bloc) inflates it into a great big bogeyman.Because they are smarter, and they know best. At least in their own minds. If there was going to be a democratic vote on same sex marriage, I'd bet everything I own that it would be outlawed. "It's not good for society.". "It erodes our values." "It's a slippery slope. Soon we'll have to allow people to marry their dog." "They are equal. They have the same freedom to marry someone of the opposite sex that everybody else has." — Patterner
Not many people have original ideas about what's good for others. But a very few, who don't give a rat's ass what's good for anyone but themselves control the mass media and sway the populace with vague threats and hollow promises.Because the two sides have drastically different ideas of what is good for everyone, and many are not as concerned with what's good for everyone as with what's good for them. — Patterner
If. But why would the majority think that way? Each person is not voting for "what's good for everyone"; each person is voting for what she or he wants for themselves. If that coincides with what others also want for themselves - and it's quite likely to - than it ends up being good for everyone.If the majority think what's good for everyone is incompatible with what some minority wants, — Patterner
If there is a state religion, military occupation, caste system or ethnic discrimination at the nation's core, democracy cannot work.a reasonable constitution (no mass exclusions; equitable laws), where democratic process has been relatively uncorrupted — Vera Mont
Democracy doesn't promote freedom or equality. — Patterner
Subjective experience, yes. We all have this. It's sufficient to convince us - to the point of basing all our institutions on it. We cannot do otherwise.The proof isn't in the institutions, it is in my immediate perceptions. — Pantagruel
The evidence is so overwhelmingly on the side of freedom of will (it is the basis of all law, qua responsibility for actions, which is the foundation of civilization) — Pantagruel
Well, it would be boring to talk about myself all the time. Other people are interesting, too.you would be talking about that instead of talking about other people — Tarskian
How odd!You seek to personally attack other people. I don't. — Tarskian
Good and successful ones as well as bad. And everyone else's. There is no advantage to be gained.Finally, what is the motivation for even asking the question? The only one that I can think of is "denial of responsibility for the consequences of ones' actions." — Pantagruel
At least, I pretend .... You don't. — Tarskian
Isn’t our will not free because of limits, constraints, and entanglements? — praxis
Well, there's other stuff at play. Stupidity and ignorance limit the range of freedom to choose. So do physical constraints and emotional entanglements. Sometimes the choice as we perceive it is not the real choice available, and sometimes reason is the least significant factor in a decision.If we had free will it seems like we wouldn’t make so many bad choices. — praxis
Looking at the level of global self-organizing processes of a living system will reveal a non-linear reciprocal causality that moves between the global and the elemental. — Joshs
Sure events are rewritten in partisan histories, time travel stories and human memories. I've never seen it in a chemical reaction; thus remain unswayed.Put differently, in complex systems the past is changed by the present that it functions in. — Joshs
How many of those have you committed in the past second? Each of your reasoned decisions can only result in one action.You aren’t limited to one act. At each moment there are an unfathomable series of acts being committed. — NOS4A2
Prove it. We simply cannot know from internal experience what confluence of factors caused all the previous experiences.In one case the basic biology and metaphysics is dead wrong. Nothing else determines one’s actions. — NOS4A2
Given this, we can conclude we could have acted differently for the simple reason we are not limited to only one act. — NOS4A2
Denial or acceptance doesn't change anything. If you believe in free will, you can rationalize and justify your actions; if you don't, you can excuse yourself on those grounds. The benefits are either available or not; they're neither gained nor lost through belief.If you deny freedom, then you excuse yourself from responsibility for everything that freedom implies, but also forgo whatever benefits it confers. — Pantagruel
That's a nice position to take outside a prison cell.Kant says the "idea of freedom" is sufficient to freedom. — Pantagruel
By the fact your conscious awareness, which is only in the top 10% of the brain, doesn't know all the processes that lead to a decision, only the final result. Yes, it's 'you' deciding, but you can't have decided differently.If the “body and brain make the decisions”, and you are the body and brain, how are you not making decisions? — NOS4A2
does this not imply that I have free will? If so why not ? — kindred
I have no need or desire to prove anything, nor do I give a flying fig about 'you' - who or whatever that is. Your own words speak clearly enough.desperately wants to "prove" things about me, — Tarskian
All things considered, it's better to have money than not, but do you think being rich will make you happy? Or is a necessary condition for happiness? — RogueAI