"I think that the cat is on the mat" — Michael

I might think the cat is on the mat. But I might speak that sentence, even though I don't actually think the cat is on the mat. I only thought of the words to say.

None of which has anything to do with whether or not the cat actually is on the mat, or whether there even is a cat or mat.

But I’m interested in the idea that the beginning of life is also the most basic form of intentional (or purposive) behaviour - not *consciously* intentional, of course, but different to what is found in the inorganic realm. — Wayfarer

Yes. All living things have DNA. DNA and it's cohorts may not be aware of what they're doing, but there is a goal, which is achieved. Information is processed, and, in this case, the processing is identical with the action of achieving the goal. (Unlike when I read a book. Information is processed, but nothing need happen in regards to it. I can learn how to build a log cabin, yet never build one.). Life is information processing, even though not all information processing is life.

How so? I find this analogy strange as a rock is not actually a rock to anything other than that which consciously adheres to it as an object. To an ant, assuming some minimal form of consciousness, the rock is likely nothing more than a surface. A rock cannot 'be' it is the 'beings' that frame a rock as a rock. — I like sushi

Sure. And I'm sure Donald Hoffman is in full agreement. I'm not defining "rock". I'm just talking about whatever it is that we call a rock.

To an ant, assuming some minimal form of consciousness... — I like sushi

I am, indeed.

I would like to know in more detail - where possible - what you mean by consciousness being "fundamental" please. — I like sushi

I mean it does not emerge from, isn't produced by, anything else. We don't think, for example, mass or electrical charge emerge from anything else. The idea is that it's always there, and everything is always experiencing itself.

Okay. But you then talk about a 'rock' as conscious? Or was that merely an analogy of an analogy. — I like sushi

No, I don't mean it as any kind of analogy. I mean it literally. It's important to disassociate any kind of mental activity from the definition of consciousness. A rock has no mental activity. So when I talk about a rock's consciousness, I'm not talking about anything mental. It cannot experience what it does not have.

Humans experience quite a bit more than rocks do. We have a lot of information processing going on within us, and a lot of feedback loops. That's in addition to all of our physical characteristics. Unlike rocks, which have no mental content, our physical characteristics are part of our mental content. We have senses that send signals from (as in the case of nerves in the skin) and about (as in the case of eyes perceiving an arm) all parts of our physical bodies to our brains, where are the information is processed in various ways.

Ehen I die, there will still be consciousness. But there will no longer be any mental activity to experience. Just the physical body. No more interesting than a rock's consciousness. At least in my opinion. Others may think the consciousness of a dead body is more interesting than a rock's. In there timeframes of human life, there is certainly nore going on in a dead body than there is in a rock. A typical body will decompose much faster than a typical rock will erode. Both will experience their deconstruction, but neither will have any thoughts or feelings about, or awareness of, it.

I once had a lucid dream where I inhabited a plant, briefly. It was like my consciousness, disembodied, was moving around a landscape. At one point, I moved into a plant and could feel being the shape of the plant and the energies coursing through the xylem tubes. There were intense colours across a spectrum, it was very thrilling. Then I moved out of the plant and across the landscape again and remember looking back at the plant and wanting to be that plant again. It was like I experienced what it was like to be a plant. — Punshhh

That's an interesting dream! :grin:

↪Manuel He doesn’t want it to become a discussion about materialism versus idealism. That’s all. — Punshhh

Yes. Thank you.

Although that may not be possible on. This forum. — Punshhh

indeed. Heh. I take part in those discussions often enough. But I'd like to have a different discussion at the moment.

That's sounds right.

fantastic post! I wish I had anything useful to add.

So we only need to ask whether your experience falls under the aesthetic, or something closer to the heart. — J

And we need to determine how different the two are.

Would the tutoring have had a bearing, do you think? — J

I don't know that it couldn't for others. I only know it didn't for me. My first exposure to Bach was like the proverbial piano falling on me. I didn't know anything about music theory or counterpoint. I didn't even know what those things meant, much less any detail of them.

Do you mean that the physical thing, the paper and crayon, just happened to be the vehicle chosen to deliver the "origin story" which is one of sentiment, innocence, and personal connection? (or something like that, pardon me if my words are clumsy) — J

Yes, that's the idea. It didn't have to be paper and crayons. I guess a 2 year old is limited in what she can work with. But if she had made a pile of pebbles, with the same patience and focus, complete unto herself, the resulting pile would be the vehicle, and I would feel the same looking at it as I do the crayon spots on paper.

This leads to a lot of questions, especially whether it's possible to properly appreciate a work without the origin story. — J

More important, imo, can we appreciate it without the material? I didn't tag anyone, but did you see my last post? The paper with crayon spots is entirely inconsequential.

When "stung" by a Derain, I feel an aesthetic, I don't learn how to feel the aesthetic. — RussellA

This is a key point. I'll use Bach as an example again, because he's Bach. But many people don't like his music, and think that's a silly sentence. I could teach you about his chord progressions, how he resolves nonharmonics, and whatever. Look here, that's Neapolitan sixth chord! You might come to understand it all, and be able to do the analysis on your own. But you might never come to like his music

I once watched a my children's 2 year old half sister with a piece of paper and crayons. She made dots. Many dots with one color, switched colors and made more dots. She used five or six different colors. No dots ever touched. She sat alone at the table, doing this calmly, and seemingly methodically, as the rest of us were in and out of there room, doing whatever. She knew we were there, of course, but you wouldn't have known that from looking at her. I frequently watched from the doorway, fairly mesmerized. I was very moved by the experience. I saved it, and gave it too her a couple years ago for her 18th birthday.

I'm calling it art. And it has nothing to do with the medium. Looking at the dots on paper might make some think of some modern artist. I don't know. But that's obviously not why I think it's art. For me, it represents the experience I had of watching this happen. It was breathtaking watching this 2yo go at it.


I don't have a video link to this. It's from the best tv show of all time: Northern Exposure. In an episode called "Fish Story", Holling is upset because Maurice made fun of his paint-by-numbers. Here's Chris explaining things to Holling.

Alright, you've got a very basic problem, Holling. You're confusing product with process. Most people, when they criticize, whether they like it or they hate it, they're talking about product. Now that's not art, that's the result of art. Alright? Art, to the degree of whatever we can get a handle on - and I'm not sure we really can - is a process. Alright? It begins in here, here (indicating his heart and his head) with these and these (indicating his hands and his eyes). Alright. Now, Picasso says the pure plastic act is only secondary. What really counts is the drama of the pure plastic act. That exact moment when the universe comes out of itself, and meets its own destruction.

:up:

everybody remember this scene from Dead Poets Society?
https://youtu.be/tpeLSMKNFO4

Art is a way of seeing; we declare what is art, we don't discover it. — J

The same is brought up in discussions of math and the laws of physics. Difficult to know sometimes. But this is definitely true of art.

There is no standard by which the judge these things.
— Patterner

Sure there is. Let's say that a composer which is lively is a composer which is good. We'll have some identifying criteria for what we mean by "lively", and thereby come to judge a composer as good. — Moliere

The criteria of "lively" is not objective. Some don't like lively. It doesn't seem right that somber music lovers would never get anything they love on the list of "good music".

One way to think on this with your examples -- perhaps there's a way of understanding why someone would say "Vivaldi wrote the most beautiful Baroque music" and why someone would say "Bach wrote the most beautiful Baroque music". I may have a preference for one or the other, — Moliere

Your preference is all it is. I can understand that you like music with certain characteristics, and possibly predict which compositions you will like. But that's not the same as saying those compositional are "good," or that I like them.

but there's an attitude I can adopt to both in seeing why they're the ones we are considering in the first place: they're both good! And what is this goodness? Why these people, and not the butchers of the same time period? — Moliere

I'm a baroque fan in general, and Bach in particular. Vivaldi was one of his influences, so we can compare them easily enough.

The question is, is there such a thing as aesthetic value over and above each tradition.
— RussellA

Yes, that's what I was trying to get to. If someone denies this, would you say they are a relativist about aesthetic value tout court? — J

Some people think classical music is the most beautiful kind of music. Some think baroque music is the most beautiful kind of classical music. Some people think Vivaldi wrote the most beautiful Baroque music, while others think it was Bach. There is no standard by which the judge these things.

I think Johnny Cash's best work was on Colombo. :grin:

bread and Russian novels boring. — Tom Storm

Well, of course, you have to do something with the bread. :grin: Make French toast. (Using only pure maple syrup.) Sandwiches of any sort. I just find it interesting that, regardless of what I do with it, I like breads of opposing qualities for those opposing qualities.

But asking why quickly drags us into an infinite regress, each reason presupposes another, and eventually we’re probably left circling back to temperament and taste. — Tom Storm

Yup. I can't even imagine what other kind of scenario there could be.

You're certainly right that we can give more detail about what we like and don't like. But it seems to me it just moves the question down a level. Why do we like or dislike the details?

It's strange sometimes. I like bread. But I like both a soft, fresh loaf, and a multi-grain like Arnold's or Killer Dave.

I love just a lone guy playing the guitar and singing, like James Taylor. The clarity, the simplicity. Odd that if that guy with a guitar a country singer, and I almost certainly won't be able to listen to the whole song. Also odd that I love Steely Dan, which is very far removed from JT in instrumentation and chord progressions, yet those are the things I love.

Two days ago I literally met the only other person I know who can't stand watermelon! Thought I was the only one. AND she ALSO can't stand cucumbers! Funny that she specifically said the texture of the cucumbers is her objection, while the flavor is mine

I'm asking for an aesthetic justification -- which would basically be a way of answering your question "Why doesn't it resonate in everyone else?" -- or at least a way to answer it. — Moliere

I don't believe any of the questions have answers that don't ultimately come down to "That's just the way it is.". And I suspect most of it is just the wiring of our brains.

But even the "why" doesn't help. Take Bach. I love counterpoint. I love how he weaved the voices in and around each other, yet the harmonies were always beautiful.

Why does that resonate so strongly in me? No idea. I didn't choose to like it. Piano teachers gave me Mozart all the time. As far as classical goes, I didn't know anything else. But then one day I heard Bach, and my world changed.

Why doesn't it resonate in everyone else? Lots of people don't want to hear Bach.

Does it have to do with how my neurons are set up?

But why these ideas and not those ideas?

Surely you see we gravitate towards different philosophers. — Moliere

Perhaps for the same reason I love Bach, but Mozart doesn't do much for me. Or why I love chocolate, but don't bother with strawberry. There is no "why". I just do. I assume it's the same for philosophers. What one talks about fascinates, and what another talks about is meh.

Richard Dawkins has claimed that reproduction is just a way for genes to replicate themselves. I think that’s a question of perspective and not definitive statement of fact. Dawkins might disagree with me on that. — T Clark

I haven't read Dawkins, but I know he has a book called The Selfish Gene. Is that where her days that?

What is your perspective?

But what about information? Do you think DNA is encoded information?
— Patterner

I think you have to be careful when you talk about information. It has a very specific technical meaning in information theory, which I don’t understand very well. — T Clark

Googling "information theory and DNA" gave me this:

Information theory, initially developed for communication systems, has found significant applications in understanding DNA and molecular biology. It provides tools to analyze the storage, transmission, and processing of information within biological systems, particularly regarding DNA sequences and gene expression. This framework helps analyze patterns in DNA, estimate information content, and understand how genetic information is encoded, stored, and utilized by cells. — AI Overview

And there are many links that discuss it.

I think they’re both exactly the same except that one is much more complex than the other. In addition, the DNA reaction ends up producing something that’s important to humans whereas the vinegar one does not. I think that is what gives the illusion of purpose. People like to tell stories and goals and purposes are stories that People are particularly good at. — T Clark

I think DNA produces the environment in which it can reproduce. Doesn't matter what species, it's what all life is. I'd say that's the definition of life - DNA builds the environment in which it reproduces.

Do you view all that in some other way?
— Patterner

Clearly, yes. And just as clearly, this is a difference of opinion we’re not going to be able to resolve. — T Clark

Likely not. :rofl: But if modify posted her about things they didn't agree on... But what about information? Do you think DNA is encoded information? Or is it just... I don't know how to word it. It just happens that the order of the bases happens to to lead to proteins being assembled.

My position throughout this discussion has been that teleology does not mean just that one event leads, through a chain of events, to another event. Here is the definition that matches my understanding of the meaning. It’s from Google‘s AI summary, so I’m not saying it’s definitive or correct necessarily, but it is my understanding.

“Teleology, in philosophy, is the study of purposiveness or goal-directedness. It examines how phenomena, whether natural or human-made, are explained by their ends, goals, or purposes rather than their causes. The concept suggests that things exist or occur for a specific reason, implying a design or intention behind their existence.”

I think intention is the right word to use here. Teleology implies that an event took place because it was intended. It’s my position that intention is a mental state. You need a mind for there to be a goal or purpose. — T Clark

I wonder if it's possible that ends, goals, or purposes can exist without intention. How can protein synthesis not be the goal of DNA and its cohorts? Protein isn't the result of a spontaneous chemical reaction. (I take this kind of thing to be what Barbieri means by "spontaneous molecules" and "spontaneous reactions".) It's not like vinegar and baking soda coming in contact, and there's a chemical reaction that releases carbon dioxide. I don't see how CO2 can be the goal of vinegar and baking soda, since they might never have come into contact. But protein is synthesized by an intricate process that has several molecules taking the information stored in DNA, and assembling the amino acids and proteins. DNA doesn't do anything other than this, and the order of its bases is obviously the recipe for amino acids and proteins, and nothing else.

Do you view all that in some other way?

These patterns are neither external to us, nor are they merely internal to us. The order emerges out of our discursive and material interactions with our environment. It is not discovered but produced , enacted as patterns of activity. — Joshs

I disagree. I think old faithful would erupt with the same regularity whethet humans, or any life, existed. I would say the same about pulsars, and many more examples.

However, that doesn't even matter. Even if there are no patterns in the universe whatsoever other than those humans construct, humans are a part of the universe. Therefore, patterns are a part of the universe.

I don't know about the universe, as a whole, being teleological. I don't see any reason to believe it is. But teleology is certainly found in the universe.
— Patterner

Agreed, but I would say only where there is intention. I guess that means human or other outside intervention. — T Clark

Intention is a sure sign of teleology. But I have to wonder about intention. Consider DNA. These are Marcello Barbieri's words:

The physicalist thesis would be correct if genes and proteins were spontaneous molecules, because there is no doubt that all spontaneous reactions are completely accounted for by physical quantities. This, however, is precisely the point that molecular biology has proved wrong. Genes and proteins are not produced by spontaneous processes in living systems. They are produced by molecular machines that physically stick their subunits together and are therefore manufactured molecules, i.e. molecular artefacts. This in turn means that all biological structures are manufactured, and therefore that the whole of life is artefact-making . — Marcello Barbieri

Genes and proteins, in short, are assembled by molecular robots on the basis of outside instructions. They are manufactured molecules, as different from ordinary molecules as artificial objects are from natural ones. indeed, if we agree that molecules are natural when their structure is determined from within, and artificial when it is determined from without, then genes and proteins can truly be referred to as artificial molecules, as artifacts made by Nature. — Marcello Barbieri

DNA is two complimentary strands of nucleotides running along sugar phosphate backbones, and joined by hydrogen bonds. DNA means chains of amino acids and proteins. It is encoded information. In an extremely simplified description, helicase unzips DNA so that mRNA can make copies of that information, which it takes out of the nucleus to the ribosomes, where tRNA molecules each take one codon of information to the molecule aminoacyl-tRNA synthetase, which knows which amino acid the tRNA's codon represents, which it gives to the tRNA, so the ribosome can stick them together into proteins.

A lot of work is being done by a lot of different molecules to construct something that will not come to exist in any other way. Is there not intent.. Not thoughts of intent. But the system works toward something in the future. If there is intention here, then human or other outside intervention is not needed for intention.

If there is NOT intention, it is still a lot of organized work from different players using encoded information to bring about a specific future. So teleology.

I don't know about the universe, as a whole, being teleological. I don't see any reason to believe it is. But teleology is certainly found in the universe. To demonstrate this, I just did this.
I thought about a future state that was not going to come about without my envisioning it, my intent to bring it about, and my work to bring it about.

(It turns out it takes a minute to get the one on top to stay, because the cap of the one below is not a flat surface with sharp edges. In case anyone was wondering. :grin:)

How would we go about calculating the probability of the BB?

I suspect I am not, although I don't really understand. It seems to me that you're sometimes saying there are consistencies/regularities/patterns in the universe, and sometimes saying there are not. How can we make sense of the indeterminate, beyond knowing it is indeterminate? What I mean is, what greater understanding of it can exist beyond the fact that it is indeterminate? If, for no rhyme or reason, something changes its shape, size, state (solid, liquid, gas), and everything else we can think of, each at its own random interval, isn't that all we can understand about it?

We engage with an open and indeterminate reality by constructing tentative models that help us navigate and make sense of it, knowing these models are provisional and will eventually be replaced as our understanding evolves. — Tom Storm

As our understanding of what evolves?

The question for me is: are the patterns external, or are they the product of our cognitive apparatus? — Tom Storm

I think this brings me back to my original question. If the patterns are not external, why would our cognitive apparatus produce them?

To call a pattern a law of nature reifies it, or at least risks mistaking a useful human construct for something intrinsic to reality itself. — Tom Storm

"Law" is an unfortunate word, but it's the one we've been using for ... well, quite a while. No, I wouldn't think the inverse square law is a thing that demands or forces the gravitational attraction between two objects to be inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them. Nevertheless, the gravitational attraction between two objects is inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them. Maybe the science world should start using new words.

I'm not saying there are no patterns — Tom Storm

I thought you were saying that, particularly when you said, "At present, I tend to believe that the idea that the universe “behaves in an orderly way” reflects a human tendency to project patterns and impose coherence where there may be none inherently. What we call "order" is not something we discover in the universe but something we attribute to it through our descriptive practices."

it's about how we tend to perceive things and that our predictive model change over time and may not map onto something we call reality. We tend to fall back on predictions to cope with our world. So if it rains after we pray or do a special dance, we'll keep doing it to try to bring rain again. — Tom Storm

Certainly, our perceptions, and guesses regarding the meaning, of the universe's regularities and patterns change over time. Hopefully becoming more accurate, though Donald Hoffman might say not. But I take 's OP as asking why there are regularities and patterns at all.

There were regularities there of some kind, of course — Moliere

That's what I took to be the point of the OP. There are regularities, patterns, consistencies.

Nothing. It's just interesting. — RogueAI

Ah! Ok. I thought you were getting at something specific.

No regularities seem chaotic. It would be difficult to learn from evidence (or experiences, assuming there could be any). — jorndoe

I doubt there could be any. If sometimes electrons and protons repel each other, and sometimes attracted to each other, and if the strong nuclear force sometimes bound nuclei together and sometimes didn't, and matter sometimes warped space-time and sometimes didn't...

Not only do we act like it's a low probability event, we believe it too. No one is scared the universe will kill us all in the next minute. We believe that's very unlikely, but how do we know? — RogueAI

That's true. But, what else can and should we do?

That's a good question. Also, why do we believe the universe will continue to behave in an orderly way? How do we know there isn't some principle at work whereby the universe becomes chaotic tomorrow. How do we even go about calculating the odds of such a thing? But we all act like it's a low probability event. Is it really? — RogueAI

I can't think of a different way that we should act. If it does not continue to behave tomorrow the way it is today, how could we guess in which ways it will be different? which type of disaster should we plan for? Some of which, such as the sudden disappearance of the strong nuclear force, could not possibly be prepared for anyway. So we may as well all act like it's a low probability event.

I’d guess that humans are pattern seeking, meaning making machines. We see connections everywhere and this often helps us manage our environment. — Tom Storm

Why would we be machines of that nature? I would think because it's a successful strategy. If so, why would seeking patterns/meaning/connections in a universe where there aren't any be successful?