Personally I think humans fuck everything up, whether it’s secular or religious. — Tom Storm

HA! I agree, we have a way of messing with a good thing...power hungry, most trying to be the top gun in a world where violence reigns. It's interesting to hear your perspective - a person who no longer shouts his atheist perspective from the rooftops. I've noticed, among those who do not believe in a deity of any sort, that they do take great pleasure in being right - at least on the forums I've visited. Whether the perspective has had the life flogged out of it or not, it's still relevant to our discussion, I think. To your point - I've listened to Dawkins and Hitchens, and even though they are much closer to the truth than I believe that religion can be, I do not agree with their aggressive posture. Where I live, it's very hard to find someone of like mind (at least so far). My frustration with anyone who accepts what they've been told on blind faith stems from my background and experiences. A priest and a nun who are tough on religion...very interesting...I wonder what they actually know to be true for them?
As a creative, I've come to understand something that may be interpreted as me "believing" in something - some kind of higher power - but I do not consider it to be that way. I have lived and felt the power of inspiration in my life. It's why I write. It's why I'm a creativity coach - I love helping other people feel that surge of power that comes from a mind-spark of inspiration. I believe that inspiration is the result of tapping into the quantum field, collapsing the wave, and drawing what you wish to create into life. It's as close to real magic as I've ever felt. For me, that's my sacred.
However, I also believe that creativity is neutral - inspiration can be used for good or for evil. We have been seeing it play out on a global scale for as long as I can remember.

The point I was making was that religion alters people. It skews their thinking by placing artificial limits on the way people conduct their lives. Societies without religious ideology evolve differently...more naturally, I think, than do those with a culture based upon "fear/respect for a god." It's impossible to determine how we would have been different if we had been brought up in a pre-colonial indigenous culture, or in any culture that was different than the one in which I was raised.
I completely agree that politics, culture, and art all have their influences. On this point, I also ask you to consider the role that religion has played in each of these different aspects of human life. My initial point with the post was to ask readers to consider the basis for most of the contention and separation that we see globally as being religious ideology. It is pervasive and runs so deep that it cannot be separated without determined effort.
I've studied the philosophical component of Buddhism to a certain degree, and I resonate with a lot of what they teach.
As for the other religions you mentioned, I'm not schooled in their practices and cannot comment.
All I know is Christianity and its variations. However, when it becomes dogma, like any religious practice that inhibits or ostracizes people, it's not my vibe.

In the case of what you've said, Tom, that you can't help what you're attracted to - I see this as part of the initial indoctrination.

All I mean is that some people are 'turned on' by theism and some are not, just as some are attracted to boys and not girls. — Tom Storm

To compare it to a deviance..I don't know if I'd go that far.

However, if it's truly an individual preference, I haven't seen this to be the case. Everyone I know has been altered by religious ideology - that includes Catholic, Baptist, as well as other Protestant religions.
In my view, it's absolutely unnecessary to follow a deity.

I think that good people want to be truly decent and caring and that they may be attracted to a philosophy that reflects this outlook on life. It's been true for me, but I never had a chance when I was a kid as I was force-fed the beliefs of my family of origin. My experience isn't an anomaly, it's pervasive in the Christian communities that I've been exposed to.

I think even when a meaning seeker rejects religion they will find another path to it by another name. — DingoJones

Agreed. Humanity is hard-wired to bring meaning to our experiences. If they reject religion, they will find another way, many of them New Age. I also explored some of these ideas back in the day and rejected them as well. It's strange what some folks will accept as their new religion. As I see it, a philosophical perspective that embraces science and rejects superstition (particularly the sky/man/god idea) is the most practical.

That's interesting, Tom! Thank you for this perspective. I'm glad to hear that my experience isn't universal!

Please provide examples of your claim - of a Christian religion that does not, at its core, rely on original sin and the sinfulness of "mankind." As I sse it these constitute the core of a good Christian's beliefs: (1) Belief in the divinity of Jesus. (2) Belief in original sin, humanity's sinful nature. (3) Jesus' sacrifice that had to atone for our sinful nature. (4) Belief that god resurrected HIS son after we were done with HIM) (5) the personal need for belief, prayer, and repentance by placing our trust in the sky/man/god, who sees you when your sleeping, and knows when you're awake. HE knows if you've been bad or good...well correction...you've always been bad.
I don't care how the person spins it so it makes believing in "something" unknowable palatable, at its core is this fundamental belief.
A good human is a good human, right? I don't require superstition to be in awe of the everyday workings of nature, to be kind to people, and to celebrate my joy for life.
Tom, if believing in a mystical version of a god helps you to sleep better, why would I challenge you? However, I would invite you to consider that you've kept only one piece of the puzzle as your soother. I've been there and done that.
Why not simply enjoy what quantum physics is revealing - that all is energy, connected, and coherent?

Clever! And I agree that you are accurate - your Theory of Everything does create how you view religion. I would contend that every belief that a person holds contributes to your perspective. But my Theory of Everything cannot agree with yours in this regard - it's not "our" god. It's yours. I don't have a lord and master.

I assume this is the definition of parasitic that you are referring to: habitually relying on or exploiting others? If this is the case, then anyone who does not agree with the philosophy of a group and calls them out is exploiting them? Do you think that I'm relying on others to support my stance against them? Man, that would shut down everyone that I know and value for their perspective. As I see it, it's a matter of acknowledging your origins and addressing the mess that I helped create.

Politically, I doubt we agree on anything — Bob Ross

Perhaps what you say is true. However, as I don't know you, I would not say that with any certainty. I leave that to the theists. Of course, I can learn from you and from anyone who takes the time to comment here.

Forgive me, I am not trying to put words in your mouth; but from my perspective it seems like you may have a really negative view of religion because of your horrible exposure to the really bad parts. — Bob Ross

Nope. It's all BS. I can be kind to my neighbors, be a good, contributing citizen, embrace diversity in both culture and gender, give of myself through volunteering and selfless acts, teach my children how to critically think as part of their education, and fore-give you my best intentions regardless of whether we ever meet in this lifetime, without fear of everlasting torment if I don't give my life to a sky/man/god who watches me while I'm sleeping and polices my thoughts, by the way...who's good book tells me, as a female decended from the original woman, I'm the cause of original sin. All Christian religions must agree on this point, and that is, fundamentally, where our paths diverge. I got tired of being a sinner, I didn't put Jesus on a cross...so I changed my mind. I do apologize for the rant.

Agreed. And I also agree that talking about its truth is moot as well as misleading - it's a psychological bait and switch that takes us away from the real picture. My point in posting this is to provide a glimpse of what happens to people when they are conditioned to be nice and to follow a leader who claims to be a sky/man/god king and leader. This is the confusion we see happening in the world when people are asked to think for themselves (they don't have a clue how to do it and will fight for their limitations so as not to do the work) and "need to believe" in something that is beyond their control, thus shifting everything they cannot explain onto something that can never be proven. I'm an artist, and this is performance art at its most convincing.

If you get too caught up in fending off the people with unsophisticated positions, on any topic (but in this case theology), then your position will be formulated parasitically on those positions which you wish to oppose and this makes your own position equally, but oppositely, malformed as your opponents. — Bob Ross

. I agree with Bob's perspective.

Years ago, I left any form of religion behind me. I do not identify as an atheist because that would mean that I identify as something I'm not. How can you be anti something that doesn't exist? A good life is not lived through what you are not. The process of negation, in my view, is to lead me to what can stand the test of scrutiny. Subsequently, I cannot say I'm a non-believer, thus making something of nothing.

If I'm in error, then so be it.

Hi Bob, thank you for the welcome. Please don't feel sorry for me, it's made me who I am.
I've been on both the negative and positive sides of a debate many times, and this one is no different in that regard. People must make a stand for what they know for sure, not quote rhetoric to support that which they have not experienced.
I have no interest in debating theology with anyone. And, thank you for the warning, but I will not be coerced into a false sense of accomplishment. As for questioning someone's integrity...I'm assuming that you have a history of debate with this person?
As for the people who have not only questioned my ability to tackle big subjects, but also suggested that the reason for my philosophical endeavors is a substitute for trauma therapy, that gave me a wry chuckle. I guess I'll gear up for word wars, brought to me by people who have no clue who I am or what I stand for. That's fair. I'm attempting to play on your field now. And I accept your challenge as I have been thinking about it a lot, especially in light of my personal theory of why an authoritarian regime is now in power in the United States. Do other people see what I'm seeing? That was my reason for sharing this post - our world has been corrupted by religion, conditioning us to be led by a poor substitute for a powerful being. And those of us who say, "This is not our issue, not our business," are complicit in its rollout. It's not enough to engage in heated debates on the internet while not only the symbolic Rome, but the whole damn world is burning.

Ha! Can we be friends?

Well, you were being a bit of a dick, but you have a right to your opinion. I didn't sign up for this forum to be a candy ass. I have a very strong perspective and won't back down without a healthy debate. Agreed, it was a difficult go, but you know, trauma is a word slung around a lot these days. I wanted to begin by calling bullshit where I saw it. I'm not an innocent here - I taught religious education until I was 39. When I observed how people have been conditioned to follow without using critical thinking to analyze what they accept unconditionally, and how it has led to millions being led around like cattle with a nose ring by men who want to control everyone's narrative, it is deeply disturbing to me. I may also be in error here, displaying emotion, because I don't have a traditional background in philosophy. I didn't study it in university and didn't learn the vernacular or how to behave in a way that doesn't draw fire from the intellectual gods. This is simply my truth, as is my post. Dude, if you choose to be combative, perhaps its origins are based in your trauma...how would I know? :smile:

Actually, that is exactly what I was describing, through my personal experience. Are you questioning my ability to take such a contoversial stance? Interesting, as you don't know me...However, I must concede that I should have added a disclaimer to the post, given the need for you, superior, philosophical types to feel good about yourself.

No, I guess not. I still thought it was a cool post, though, clueless as I am. — frank

Was this your way of backing down from Hanover's onslaught? How are you clueless? Everyone has the right to their origin story. It brought us here to this space.

Yes, it is dependent upon ideology.

Interesting. I respect your perspective. However, I still think that religious compliance is the reason for the warped perspective we see affecting our world. If people are using religion as a hobby, get a new hobby - perhaps one that actually talks about eternal love without the everlasting torment chaser.
Yep. Parents get sucked into this vortex. I did as well. I taught religious education until I was 39. For a long time afterwards, I felt like a hypocrite. 20+ years of identifying as simply human has changed me, because it taught me to stand by what I say. I struggled with the idea of opening this can o' worms, even on a philosophical forum, where people are supposed to be more open-minded, but did it anyway. It's my story, the point of which is that it is the story of many, the origin of many a secular, philosophical thinker.

The future and our plans warp the mind. — Fire Ologist

Whether the future and our plans warp the mind is contingent upon your Theory of Everything, aka your perspective.

Yep. You're right. There are a lot of wars that may not have typical religious origins. However, ideologies that are based on personal beliefs are at the root of most wars, wouldn't you say (I'm being cautious here as I can see I'll get slammed for my wordage and that has to be ok - after all I've brought up a controversial subject that doesn't seem to have its roots in traditional philosophy). I guess it depends on how you define religion (1) a system of faith and worship. (2) a personal or institutionalized system of beliefs and practices. (3) a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held with ardor and faith. With this series of definitions, one COULD argue that whatever you uphold as your belief system can be a point of contention. People can hold their beliefs as sacred even if they are secular. Even philosophers, who pride themselves on being open-minded, really aren't given some of the comments here. Everyone has a theory of everything.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. That was not my reality, so I can't speak to that aspect. And yes, religious trauma is all too pervasive, way too pervasive. That's my point in sharing. A surgical, logical state of mind is sometimes hard won, wouldn't you agree?

Hey, you don't have to validate me. Or agree. It's about transparency on my part. My upbringing shaped me, as yours shaped you. I agree with Chris Hitchens and Sam Harris in this regard - you don't have to be religious to be a good person. In fact, religion warps the mind of those who must operate within its confines.

I did some research and here's what I found. Perhaps these numbers aren't accurate?

Religious Wars in Europe:

The Crusades (1095-1291): Estimates of deaths vary widely, but it is believed that hundreds of thousands of people were killed in these series of religious wars between Christians and Muslims.

The Thirty Years' War (1618-1648): While not solely a religious war, it was deeply influenced by religious conflicts between Protestants and Catholics. Estimates suggest that up to 8 million people died, both directly and indirectly, from warfare, disease, and famine.

The Wars of Religion in France (1562-1598): These conflicts between Catholics and Huguenots (French Protestants) resulted in an estimated 3-4 million deaths.

Religious Conflicts in the Middle East:

The Ottoman-Safavid Wars (1514-1736): A series of conflicts between the Ottoman Empire and the Safavid Empire, driven by religious differences between Sunni and Shia Islam. Estimates of deaths are difficult to ascertain, but they were significant.

The Iran-Iraq War (1980-1988): While not solely a religious war, it had strong sectarian overtones between Shia and Sunni Muslims. Estimates suggest that over 1 million people were killed.
Religious Conflicts in South Asia:

The Partition of India (1947): The division of British India into India and Pakistan, largely along religious lines, resulted in an estimated 200,000 to 2 million deaths.

The Mughal-Maratha Wars (1680-1707): A series of conflicts between the Mughal Empire and the Maratha Confederacy, driven by religious and political differences. Estimates of deaths are uncertain but significant.

Religious Conflicts in Africa:

The Rwandan Genocide (1994): While not solely a religious conflict, it had strong ethnic and religious overtones. An estimated 500,000 to 1 million people were killed.

The Nigerian Civil War (1967-1970): Also known as the Biafran War, it had religious and ethnic dimensions. Estimates suggest that 1-3 million people died.

Religious Conflicts in the Americas:

The Conquest of the Americas: The Spanish conquest of the Americas in the 16th century, driven by religious zeal, resulted in the deaths of millions of indigenous people due to warfare, disease, and forced labor.

The Thirty Years' War (1618-1648): While not solely a religious war, it was deeply influenced by religious conflicts between Protestants and Catholics. Estimates suggest that up to 8 million people died, both directly and indirectly, from warfare, disease, and famine.

Religious Conflicts in Asia:

The Taiping Rebellion (1850-1864): A millenarian movement in China that resulted in an estimated 20-70 million deaths.

The Boxer Rebellion (1899-1901): A violent anti-foreign and anti-Christian uprising in China that resulted in an estimated 100,000 deaths.

These represent only a fraction of the religious conflicts throughout history. The total number of people killed in the name of a god is likely in the hundreds of millions, if not more.

I agree, there are a number of factors that are involved, but everyone believes that their version of god is on their side.

Yep. If one is only allowed to ask certain questions and accept certain answers the box is intact. Blasting through that BS is the point of philosophical thought, I think...

I hear you. It was no fun, that's for sure. However, it played a significant part in shaping my outlook on life. The post was explicitly designed to show how a perspective of a person can be shaped by the prevailing norms of their society. I could be anyone brought up in this way. I'm not special and don't want to be. What it's done for me - it's allowed me to stop thinking in magical terms and to embrace philosophy as a real option. It released me to think further than I could have if I tried to function within the confines of religion. It led me to write books and create two philosophical theories. I'm so much better choosing to move beyond those confines. If philosophy is all about recognizing the forces that shaped you and trying to peep beyond them, then I believe this post is exactly that. Each person comes to their realizations in their own way. This is mine. What I will share in this forum will be my proof of what my experience has taught me.

Yes! Agreed! That's entirely my point. Religion is the cause of what's wrong with our world. More people have been killed in the name of a diety than any other way.

Thanks for your response! It's been a hard road, and there's more to it, but that's basically how I felt about my time with religion. We lived in a small community that was very bigoted, and the lines between Catholic and Protestant were drawn in the sand, not in a confrontational way but in a subtle way. It actually shocked me when I realized just how much power religion had over my childhood. My parent truly believed she was doing the right thing. In many ways, my upbringing has been an example of what not to do. I moved away from the church in my late 30s, and my mother vigorously disapproved. However, she had her good points too - she was an extrovert who never met a stranger. I've taken the best of what she gave me and released the rest. What led me to write this piece is the bizarre situation that I see happening in the USA, with the Christian Nationalists taking over. I've come to realize that religion is the root cause of all that's wrong with society - it makes people into sheeple, followers who need a shepherd. It stops good men and women from standing up to tyranny under the guise of "live and let live." Thank you for your kindness. I hope my response hasn't offended you.