As any ordinary person around the world has, I have, where I live, a ruling system (equivalent to Caesar). But, on the other hand, I didn't need serving (or just belonging to) any formal system by my own will. — KerimF

Are you speaking of religion or something else?

As it is placed in a 'philosophy of religion' section of a philosophy forum I'd think you mean religion, but I'm not too sure. I could mean governmental systems or possibly social systems (social norms/ constraints/constructs). I can't really tell for sure; thus my question.

I am a live example — KerimF

I take it you mean 'yes'.

I personally doesn't trust any ruling system... — KerimF

So, have you replaced these established (ruling) systems with one of your own or do you simply have no system whatsoever?

EDIT: I'm sort of in a default position of understanding 'system' as 'system of faith or worship'... possibly meaning 'religion' or 'doctrine'.

Should philosophy be about highest aspirations and ideals? — Jack Cummins

Just asking here, but do you believe that there is a consensus in philosophy as to what are the highest aspirations and ideals?

Now for something completely different...

Let me put it another way.

Is it possible to believe in god(s) without a religion or doctrine being involved?

By religion do you mean:

- the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
- a particular system of faith and worship.
- a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion.
- something else

As to 'doctrine' (in the context of religion), it is usually defined as 'a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a Church'; thus one could suggest that by it's own definition a set of rules are implied. It seems difficult to have a belief or set of rules being held or taught that are void of rules.

Another question would be are you wishing to hold a position that it is possible to have a belief in god(s) without a subsequent religion being involved?

I'm not so much interested in providing an answer, as much as I am interested in reading the thread. I just thought some more clarity would help this move forward a bit and address the topic you indeed wish to address.

:clap:

You contradict yourself. First you say "with a notion of certainty", as opposed to just a plausible theory, like alternate universes. Now, suddenly and somehow, you attempt to cast any theories of a field you've clearly made up your mind on as "bollocks", to be polite. — Outlander

I fail to see where there's a plausible theory in play.

A notion of conjecture yes, but a theory: a coherent group of propositions formulated to explain a group of facts or phenomena in the natural world and repeatedly confirmed through experiment or observation... I don't see that as in play. Life after death is not a fact or phenomena of the natural world... it is simply conjecture.

Conjecture presented as certain without any evidence other than preference is bullshit (the same as bollocks... I'm not British, nor does the social construct of 'polite' enter into the picture).

No claim of certainty can be made that there is life after death nor that there is not life after death without evidence to back the claim. The latter was not the point of focus in the OP, so it was not the point being addressed.

As to the cat in the box, I agree... thus the cat cannot be said to be alive or dead; thus any claims of certainty either/or are bullshit.

Is there anyway that every idea of life after death can be correct? — TiredThinker

If we could find a way to get dead people to answer questions in an interview, that would be a help, but since dead people are completely unresponsive to questions due to them being dead we're stuck in a state of uncertainty; therefore if anyone speaks of life after death with a notion of certainty then you know, with certainty, they are full of bullshit. (so every idea of life after death share an equality in that they are all bullshit...)

Hey... we're talking Republican campaign strategy.

At worst he fakes his death, then suddenly reappears after 3 days.

It's been done before and mankind has suffered the consequences for such fake news since over 2000 years.

Popcorn anyone? — Mayor of Simpleton

Close enough... (Casandra approved message, but who cares...)

I guess there isn’t much room for lightheartedness and curiosity here. — Dina

Why on earth would you reach such a conclusion?

Why can't you post something more relevant and useful, like which type of baseball bat is best at breaking a political opponent's legs? — BitconnectCarlos

I can answer that one...

... get a Fungo bat in aluminum.

They are longer than normal bats, but swing lighter and very fast. It takes far less energy to create greater force and the smaller barrel of the bat makes the point of force more concentrated. This is how old retired guys can hit fielding practice or long fly balls for hours without getting tired.

Which philosophical subject has your interest? — Dina

It's not a singular topic ever. It's always quite a few of them.

And with which philosophies, do you tend to think about it? — Dina

As many as address the topic(s) that I can find and have time to look into.

I can't really be more specific than the question is specific.

EDIT:

Could you simply find an answer to this broad question by reading through the treads and posts of others here in the Philosophy Forums? Essentially if they are responding to a topic, it's probably of their interest and what they write and whom they reference might give a tell as to the possible philosophies they think about and sort of endorse or reject.

One thing I can say is that one cannot realistically expect a specific answer to a generalized question. Vagueness will simply lead to more vagueness.

I know... and I didn't even want that job.

It seems even if you know you're not at all qualified for things you can still get promoted, whether you like it or not.

Kind of like no one consulting you if you care to exist, but you end up existing... or is it thinking you exist or is it thinking you think you exist or...

... like I said... it's probably my fault.

Since I returned just recently, it's probably my fault.

Me and my silly enjoyment of mediocrity.

Sorry...

philosophies that most consistently influence you in your everyday life and thought process. — Dina

So what philosophies most often influence basically everything that could happen to you?

Well... I guess it can't get 'more specific' than that? ;)

Bob hasn't screamed this much in decades...
... cool!

With the 'pending' collapse of 'Merica... (like that didn't start over 40 years ago, but whatever...), this is basically my personal funeral march for the 'Merican Dream...



Oh, fuck it
I'm gonna have a party
Oh, fuck it
I'm gonna have a party

I had the blankest year
I saw life turn into a T.V. show
It was totally weird
The person I knew I didn't really know

Time don't move
We're the only ones who do
Bending reason
Cause its all we hold on to

I had the blankest year
I saw life turn into a T.V. show
It was totally weird
The person I knew I didn't really know

And I was lonely
Thank god the band's doing well
But you don't own me
I'd like to return this spell
Cause it's not my size
And your lies are so much bigger than my lies
And your ties are made of things that shouldn't make ties

Oh, fuck it (fuck it)
I'm gonna have a party
Oh, fuck it (fuck it)
I'm gonna have a party
Oh, fuck it (fuck it)
I'm gonna have a party

My thought as well.
I don't really believe there are many folks who simply have a 'one-size-fits-all' philosophy for every occasion.

melange — Nils Loc

Just a fun fact.
Here in Vienna, Austria a Melange is half a cup of "black coffee" and half a cup "creamy milk", topped with milk foam.

It isn't the USA... indeed we pay through taxes for our health insurance and we don't have kids. Public transport is very inexpensive and we only drive the car around 4,000 miles a year (with about 25% of that coming on a training camp in Italy).

Long story short, I find the breakdown of costs in the USA simply don't apply to the breakdown of costs in Austria... which is why I rarely if ever make suggestions of how American's should do it according to the standards here. They simply run non-sequitur.

Average salaries in Austria are just under €60,000 which is more or less the same as in the USA, just that there are far more services covered by taxes and many crucial things... like educations and health coverage... thus those are not expenses.

Minimum wage doesn't really make sense here as people aren't really paid hourly like in the USA. Some are, but it's rare. Pretty much no one makes less that €1500 a month. There are basically aspects here that just don't apply.

My wife's job is well paid, but not insanely high. Her skill set grants her the ability to work less as she's simply very efficient and her employer allows for that adjustment. Truth is we make far under the Austrian average, but it works out quite well.

Overall there is simply a greater difference in approach to working for a wage in Austria than there is in the USA. It might have to do with a perspective in life that people in Austria tend to work so they can live, whereas Americans simply live to work. I have a whole bit of this as to why... dealing with the American form of meritocratic notions and it's implications, notions of freedom in the USA vs. Europe, the influence of American religions vs. the European versions and of course the cliche of the Puritan work ethic and Manifest Destiny (or American Colonialism)... but that sort of stuff gets boring and tend to offend people who somehow think citizenship in a particular geo-political region of the globe is some point of personal pride, so I just avoid it these days.

Here's a funny example of how I'm not...

My sister, who's a very high paid lawyer (so is her husband) always freaks out about my life and how our finances are run. To be fair you allow me to give more information here that she allows me... she generally assumes the entire world functions as her household functions; thus she knows it all. I know my chosen lifestyle really funtions for me, but honestly I wouldn't wish it upon anyone else unless it would really fit them. My life, just as no one's life should be a standard model of how everyone should live, but she differs from me in that regard.

Her assumption is founded (I'd say tainted) by the fact she lives in a very posh gated community and her two kids attended a private school K thru 12 that cost per kid more than our yearly budget for everything. Much of the intention of the school was to get them into the 'right college'... unless she meant Wright State University I always thought the 'right college' was the one where you can learn to your maximum according to your personal needs; thus the various selection of colleges and universities in the USA, but apparently I'm mistaken. Anyway... now they are both in Tulane (and it seems happy to have escaped unless they need something, like money)... again an insanely expensive school, but hey... it was on the short list of 'right colleges', so mission accomplished I suppose.

Also, they are members of the 'Country Club of Virginia'... you get the picture... and her assumption is that this is what everyone not only wants, but should want. Believe me, after having to go to that place a few times I belong to as many country clubs as I care too... meaning I belong to none.

She is also enslaved by the environment she has chosen to live in... the grass has to look just so... the mail box has to look just so... the car has to be parked just so... the type of car has to be just so... and changes to the house have to go through the approval committee... so she is basically as free to conform to the standard she claims grants her the greatest freedom, as indeed she has played the game well and has won... happy to invest her money in exactly what the neighborhood approves.

Of course her vacations have to be somehow in status proportional to her chosen lifestyle (meaning 5+ star and in the 'right locations'... again unless she meant the Isle of Wright I thought the 'right location' was where one could relax and enjoy differences of culture and scenery or take part in activities that are desirable and outside the normal daily routine and such vacations are only taken when it is of convenience to the company. Basically her vacations are simply a home office with a view of the beach or the mountains. Sure she might stick her toes in the water a couple of time or possible go on a company 'hike' (aka short walk) in the woods (beside the road near the parking lot), but only as her work allows her to do so, but hey... she's free! She's never more than a few hours away from contact to her company... of which she is nearly atop the heap.

This is only a small case example, but actually all of her friends and associates work much along the same lines, so perhaps it is indeed a slightly larger sample than just one.

As her life and chosen lifestyle requires an epic amount of money her and nearly all her time to make that money, her standards of measure for how people should be are tainted by this chosen lifestyle. She cannot view the world in any other manner. My life is completely foreign to her and will remain so, actually by her own choice.

Now is she happy?

It's difficult to tell. I have very little to do with her as she is always under extreme stress and does believe she is more or less the only one under stress, but she knows she's the master of stress and can master anything as she will let you know in all humbleness just how much skill she has in this endeavor.

She is indeed hyper intelligent, hyper successful, hyper organized and hyper critical... but like I said before is she happy?

I don't know and frankly I don't care.

Anyway...

The house we own doesn't give us an income, as her parents just live there. It's different here as we own the house but rent the land... it's very common practice.

I'm kind of way of the OP here, but tangents are my thing.

It's how I ended up in Austria... a tangent.
It's how I met my now wife... a tangent.
It's how I ended up training professional cyclists... a tangent.
It's how I was able to go outside the norm of America... a tangent.
It's how I ended up playing baseball at the age of 50+... a tangent.
It's why I'm teaching myself (rather unsuccessfully) Japanese... a tangent.

Also, applying the skills I gathered via learning and yes... being really bad at philosophy, but knowing I'm bad at it... I did discover that knowledge is power and 'Arbeit macht nicht frei'.

I'm not religious at all, but as to the Puritan work ethic...

My take is that 'the devil makes work for idle hand' implies not that one should always be working or else, but rather that all work is from the devil and idle hand is the best means with which to find happiness as a by product of unexpected activities.

As you can tell I've been out of the USA for more than a quarter of a century and most all of my adult life. It was probably a good move... for both myself and the Americans who'd have to put up with me.

Austria is no perfect land by any means, but for the life I choose to live it's a far better fit. My ability to pursue a tangent and simply say no the the 'given' of American life granted me a door where most see a wall. It's certainly not for everyone, but it does defy the notion of this one size fits all approach to the must have large accumulation of money or must have decent job to thrive and be quite happy. Truth is I have rarely if ever met anyone who has a preoccupation with accumulation of large sums of money and a decent job who was indeed happy. I'm sure they do exist, but I have encountered many... actually haven't encountered any is more accurate.

Still I can't explain it, but instead I just choose to experience it... that sounds like a terrible fortune cookie, but hey... I'm rather bad at philosophy, but I'll own it.

I have to get dinner ready, but I'll get back to you if you'd like.

One thing I thought of that kind of hits a part of where I am...

'Libraries gave us power
Then work came and made us free
What price now
For a shallow piece of dignity'

Knowledge is power vs. Arbeit macht frei

I choose the former as I recognized the latter in it's hidden form of being a 'design for a life'.

Oddly enough we own my wife's parents house, yet I kind of doubt well ever live there. I'm not too fond of the location (now), but maybe when I'm older it'll be appealing.

The apartment is 69 sq meters with a balcony... I can't remember the rent, but everything is included. Also a great view of a mountain with a castle on the top. It is a 'Gemeindebau', technically public housing as it's owned by the city of Vienna, but it's not public housing as it is known in the USA. It is rather inexpensive (maybe $700 - 800 a month?). It's not luxury, but it seem everyone likes our apartment. I even have original art work hanging on the walls from established artists. We even have a reserved parking spot off the street.

Currently I have no job, but receive no unemployment benefits. I never bother too look into getting them.

I did work as a trainer for a professional cyclist and brought him to the World Tour, but that ended about 4 years ago, as he was picked up by Trek and now rides for NTT. They have a better ability to suit his needs and I'm fine with that. There's really no money in training professional cyclists. I just wanted to see if I could get a cyclist there... actually he's my second cyclist I brought to this level... it's a long story.

My wife works on average 12 - 15 hours a week. Sometimes it's intensive, but she could have as much as 6 weeks off with next to no work. I've never looked into her salary, but it's more than enough. We tend to invest around 60% of our monthly income into retirement funds... an irony as you'd need to work first to be considered to be retired, but anyway...

We're both very healthy, very active, make somewhat good decisions in investments and what we purchase. It's rare we buy something that just sits around never used. Also, I have time to find good prices.

Like I said... it's difficult to wrap one's head around.

Vienna, Austria isn't really cheap, but then again I'm always amazed how so many of my friends start out the day with a wallet full of cash and by the end of the day have nothing leftover while having no clear idea where did all the money go. I never have the urges they illustrate of buying a short term pleasure at a high price, as mostly I see the 'Nepp' (an Austrian term for swindle or rip-off) nor do I need this short term pleasure to 'get my by' due to stress at work where I earn money to waste of the Nepp of short term pleasure. I'm quite happy as I am and recognized; thus broke the loop. If I explain this it usually results in them becoming angry with me, so I allow them to suffer as they choose.

I can use my time to find better deals and the free time to get any time slot I care. This happens when one get to dictate the terms of when one wishes to go on vacation. Also, I can take advantage of what offers are good; thus I don't have a fixed choice in mind before I research. It's amazing just how much difference there are in prices for the same vacations depending upon when you take them (and I don't mean go to the beach in winter or ski in summer... I mean 'in season')

My studies in philosophy have given me better research skills and the free time allow me time to search. It is amazing how much one can save if they have time and ability to look.

I've always been amazed how folks miss out on the obvious factor that money comes with hidden costs. Generally the more one makes the more hidden costs are present.

Another thing is property... indeed one can own it, but it can own the owner. My mother has a huge amount of property and it's beautiful (at the age of 85 she's opening an AirBnB, yet doesn't need the money or the work)... yet she cannot travel anywhere... ever. It would be fine except she always dreams of more travel and frets over why she cannot go... she frets over the property. I say nothing, but know... why did you have all the things own you if you wanted to be free to travel? Indeed she's become a slave within her own mastery. If she's happy... hard to tell. If she's constantly busy with no time to do what as she says 'she likes'... that's clearly the case. Again... I say nothing...

The list goes on and on.

I felt like dancing... I do everyday, so why not to something a bit more insightful:



The handshake seals the contract
From the contract, there's no turning back
The turning point of a career
In Korea being insincere
The holiday was fun-packed
The contract still intact

The grabbing hands grab all they can
All for themselves, after all
The grabbing hands grab all they can
All for themselves, after all
It's a competitive world
Everything counts in large amounts

The graph on the wall
Tells the story of it all
Picture it now, see just how
The lies and deceit gained a little more power
Confidence taken in
By a suntan and a grin

The grabbing hands grab all they can
All for themselves, after all
The grabbing hands grab all they can
All for themselves, after all
It's a competitive world
Everything counts in large amounts
Everything counts in large amounts
Everything counts in large amounts

The grabbing hands grab all they can
Everything counts in large amounts
The grabbing hands grab all they can
Everything counts in large amounts

I kind of wonder then what the hell have my wife and I done wrong.

I've never held a 'decent job' (so to say) nor placed such an emphasis upon 'earning money' (yet I have far more of it that I can spend on things I like). I have a tendency to work for free even if they wish to pay me for my efforts.

My wife has a decent part time job and on occasion fills in at a couple of places who always want her full-time (at a fairly high salary), yet fail to understand it when she says clearly 'no'. They just don't get it that such a full-time commitment would destroy her freedom to relax and are 'soul suckers'.

We aren't rich, but we certainly aren't poor. Not even close to poor.

In non-Covid-19 years we end up traveling on vacations 6 to 10 weeks out of the year, no living in Castles (we only visit them), but usually 4 star locations as we simply aren't the age of students. I've had the pleasure of visiting 46 countries and I have no idea how many cities and towns (my wife has traveled more than I have), but I still feel I haven't been anywhere. Then again for most folks who have their lives identified by the limitations of 'what they do to earn money' I've lived a dream life.

I have a massive wealth in time and do indeed waste quite a bit of it, but on my terms. I try to avoid having my time measured out by someone else's time.

Indeed my wife and I (both now over 50) grew up in the 80's at the beginning of the neoliberal 'you are a commodity so make the most money as you can, as you are a brand' mantra of the times. We both were schooled in it, lived through the turbo development of it and in the end recognized it for what it was... a constraint and a control only leading to a life of even more constraints and controls... so we said 'fuck it'.

Perhaps I just didn't do it right, but I found what made life not worth living were the expectations and societal pressures (especially the economic success or else BS). What gave me the ability to 'overcome' this mantra and this economic assumption as the given was my studies in philosophy.

In my case the prioritizing those things is quite reflective of the inner values of my person rather than my expected value as a commodity for the greater good of the economy.

Have I been at conflict with the norm? At times, but for the most part my being 'outside of the loop' opens options that the norm doesn't even present as real much less as being a viable option. To tell the truth, those who I'd be in conflict with are so busy fulfilling the norm for a 'plug-n-play life as it should be' to notice I'm the happy guy outside of the loop, as that isn't even considered to be real much less an option... usually the only conflict I encounter with them is jealousy and frustration. I get to do all the things that their pursuit of the dream gets in the way of them actually obtaining the dream which makes them jealous, but my inability to explain why it works so well and how I got it to work for me makes them very frustrated.

I can't fully explain why this works and would probably fuck it all up if I could explain it well. There is a bit of 'the dude abides' in me, but I'm not the Dude. I'm too busy trying to figure out who I am and when I am that who.

Perhaps I'm an odd outlier of the scatter plot of modern society and it's expectations and norms, but I believe there is another way and philosophy was the key to the gate on a path considered to be not real.

Oh wait!

Happy accident!

This was the next video YouTune spit out...

... an alternative to studying philosophy:



"I wake up in the morning and I feel like a king
Make love not work I can do anything
Can rule my own world and never have to listen
I'm living like there's no tomorrow
You know there really isn't
'Cause I said so
'Cause I said so
'Cause I said so
'Cause I said so
Every day's a thrill when you're living like me
Don't read Baudelaire's poetry
And I don't need no Ph.D.
'Cause I'm ten times smarter than you'll ever be
'Cause I said so
'Cause I said so
'Cause I said so
'Cause I said so
'Cause I said so
'Cause I said so
'Cause I said so
'Cause I said so
Now listen all you peoples to what I have to say
Every night's a gas if you want it that way
All you need is money and a little bit of luck
I ain't greedy baby all I want is all you've got
'Cause I said so
'Cause I said so
'Cause I said so
'Cause I said so"

I kind of find it funny how there's so much emphasis upon 'earning money' or a 'decent job', as if life solely consists of Birth, School, Work, Death...

... oh well.

To each their own I suppose, but I've happily danced along to another tune without an emphasis upon either of these 'important factors'.



btw... Isn't it somehow a bit of a loaded question to ask if studying philosophy is worth it on a philosophy forum?

I (at times) use philosophy to find ways of asking better questions.

Then again, I didn't really answer the question of the OP of 'what is the purpose of philosophy', but rather addressed 'what is a purpose of philosophy'.

I find the former to be a somewhat narrow scope; thus I can't answer it.

This is about as close to a 'religious experience' as I get.

Add in a bit of Peter Hook/Joy Division and The Cure and you got me.

Yes.

... and if it's as a major (like I did) the best way of having a conversation starter and a joke is to get a Bachelor of Science in Philosophy.

Indeed... I'm one of the rare folks you will find who actually has a B.S. in Philosophy.

I'm going to try and prove that god is a simpleton — TheMadFool

... and I thank you. I simply don't have the time or skills to be a god. ;)

(sorry the joke, but it was simply set up too well, please go back to the real conversation. I like to read.)

Funny thing is Trump has been on my radar as a con man/grifter and a epic asshat since the early 80's.

All the warning signs were there (probably so many some couldn't see the trees for the forest), but as being faithful isn't really that different than being gullible he found an easy mark to manipulate in America and form a cult of personality.

My current feelings on the matter have been the same for decades now and was reflected in what came out of the Donald Trump Roast some 9 years ago.

“Donald, I’m not even sure if you’re aware of this, but the only difference between you and Michael Douglas from the movie Wall Street is that no one’s going to be sad when you get cancer.” — Anthony Jeselnik

I didn't wish him to get Covid-19, but I'm certainly not sad about it. (The irony is thick, but he and his klan might think that has to do with an iron deficiency, so there's no point in explaining it.)

If justice is served or not... well... it's America , so I don't expect much. They elected this guy, so hey... you got what the system coupled with mass gullibility allows, so take ownership of it. I'll simply settle for him being out of a position of power.

My view on all this is I want Trump to survive, be defeated, and imprisoned. — Baden

I quite agree, but I can add this:

If he lives... whatever.
If he dies... whatever.

I don't waste my concerns where there is honestly nothing worthy of that concern and he has certainly proven time and time again to not be worthy of concern, so sympathy or empathy won't come from me for that man.

My only desire ('wish') is that he is no longer in a position of power to govern.

If he is imprisoned... that's not my call or concern, so ... whatever.

Well, he has brought a new level to the phrase 'trumped up', so with Covid-19... why not take 'bat shit crazy' to a whole new level as well?

:up:

Considering that moral values in the all too Randian USA are determined by pure economic factors, these elderly and the actual 'virtually nobodies' are simply worthless and cost intensive commodities; thus Covid-19 seems to be a solution to a very American problem.

Kind of reminds me of this scene:https://www.imdb.com/video/vi1216590873

And who would this backup cult leader be? The MAGA cult are mostly in it for Trump. — Mr Bee

Perhaps Enrique Tarrio?

He seems to be a modern day match for 'MAGA values'.

That kind of depends upon one's perspective regarding the 'US trolley problem' or is it a US variation on 'Killing Baby Hitler'?

I'm sure there are some utilitarian debates here that would not rule out the death of Trump as well as some that would strictly forbid it.

If only there were some utilitarians in the USA to 'think' about it and hash this one out for us.