For a chap who is not bothered about all those Mystics, you are banging your drum quite hard there.
Stick around and listen to what some of them say and you might find there is a bit more to it than people staring at their navels.

Quite, I saw a steam engine made out of an old door knob the other day, on the antiques roadshow. The maker had spent hundreds of hours engineering all the miniature parts required. It ran on a spoonful of water and a thimble full of meths. It was treated with reverence and was quite valuable.

Welcome back and I hope you're ok.

I doubt this. This is not an ideal world for stragglers. Unless you're Switzerland.

This was on the assumption that the UK would leave with no trade deal in place on 31st December and all the attendant chaos which would come from that. If that happens they will leave trust me, and becoming small states in the EU would be better than the alternative (staying in the UK)

I just thought I would mention that if we are subjected to a no trade deal scenario on the back of the Covid economic hit. Our economy will be a basket case because there will be no way to sustain the inflated house prices upon which most of our wealth depends. If house prices crash then millions of just about managing mortgage holders will find themselves in serious negative equity. That will just be one of the dominoes which will fall and those folk in negative equity will find it increasingly impossible to service those mortgages. There will be no way to hold interest rates down. So the repayments will sky rocket. Within a couple of years we will be as broken as Greece was at the height of the Grexit crisis. But we won't have the EU to bail us out. England will be finished, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland will leave the UK and rejoin the EU.

We're back to Boris Isles.

You really should educate yourself about these prejudices you hold against the EU. Passporting has enabled easy low regulation services access across Europe for UK service providers.
We will of course lose it entirely when we leave and will find it almost impossible to trade in services as a third country across the EU. We will also lose all the agreements we benefitted from around the world via the EU trade deals. So will have to start from scratch with every country in the world in trying to come to some accommodation for services access. All of which will take many years as it's far more complex to agree than trade in goods. In the meantime UK financial services will disappear abroad, or die out.

Are you aware what will happen every time our negotiators go to a country to start negotiating? The first thing they will say is show me the agreements and trade deals you have with the EU and then we can talk. So no deal means no deals anywhere until we crawl back to the EU and accept whatever they decide to offer us.

Double whammy, the EU won't agree to a quick simplified trade deal which Johnson is hoping for and the best that's possible by 31st December. Because the UK intends to move further away in terms of agreements, alignments etc over time and won't agree to anything which prevents this moving away to happen, making a no deal more or less inevitable.

Also these other countries will turn to the negotiators and say look at the divisive and untrustworthy way you have gone about leaving the EU. Do you think we are going to trust you with a favourable deal and trust you to stand by your word when you insult the EU from day to day regarding things you signed up to in the withdrawal agreement, which you are now ripping up? You guys want to have your cake and eat it, you can have a basic trade access until we can trust you again.

Do some reading up on what you denigrate for once.
https://www.bba.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/webversion-BQB-3-1.pdf

I'm done now. You are impossible.

It's that old chestnut fake news. Anything said by the other side, in this case lefty's, remoaners, establishment figures, their rags, or reports. It's all fake news. Fact has become fake.

We, the wealthy (and well fed) poor, unite! Against those charlatans, betrayers of our country, who want to give it all away to those faceless European bureaucrats. The're all fake the lot of them, fake news.

The secret for me is I always maintain a hypothetical or experimental attitude. I'm not looking for any kind of particular confirmation (which is where I think the search degenerates into something contrived). I am just....continuously gathering information.

Quite, confirmation, or reaching a perceived goal is a side issue. But rather a growth, or progression along a path is what is important, rather like the growing of an oak tree. The acorn cannot jump from acorn to mature tree in one step without growing through all the millions of smal steps in between.

When I was younger I was intrigued by Zen, but was never in a position to give it ago. However I have been in retreat in the Himalayas, where I exercised techniques equivalent, also Hatha and raja yoga.

An interesting report into the way that care homes were required to shield hospitals while there were fears that the hospital ICU wards would be overrun. This included shipping out older people from hospitals into carehomes to create more bed space in hospitals. Sending out instructions to carehomes not to send suspected cases of Covid to hospitals, alongside this there was no provision of testing and little PPE provided to these ill equipped institutions populated by the most vulnerable.

This story is damning because these issues have still not be rectified and the carehome deaths are still rising.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-health-coronavirus-britain-elderly-sp/special-report-in-shielding-its-hospitals-from-covid-19-britain-left-many-of-the-weakest-exposed-idUKKBN22H2EI?il=0

Yes I know, we do need to see this through a Vote Leave prism ( Vote Leave is now in government, Cummings, Johnson, Gove and their entourage). They are saying we rely on the experts, but what the experts tell them then goes through the prism of a spin group headed by Cummings. It must be in their interest to portray themselves as following closely the advice. Yesterday Patrick Vallance, one of the experts said that they, the experts, give the government a range of scenarios and strategies, for them to consider. Also he said interestingly that he thought that the pull back from testing at the point of lockdown around 23rd of March was a mistake. The reason given at the time was that it was now pointless to test as the virus was spreading more widely in the community and the focus now was to flatten the curve by social distancing. They still had the herd immunity strategy ringing in their ears as well at that time.

So Cummings and Co are spinning the advice for their own purposes, whatever those are.

Chester probably works on the roofs of those massive distribution warehouses where people work on minimum wages, on zero hour contracts.

Nice posts, I'm not surprised Chester has reacted this way. The populists have to distance their supporters from any real data because it can contradict their message. In order to do this they foster a them and us rift between them and the establishment. Thus any specialist analysis of data is establishment propaganda, all experts are in on it. The only true and reliable source of information is through the populist channels of right wing rags and social media. They perceive a threat from nearly everyone, except people like them who think like them. The well off poor unite!

Interestingly before Corona the government rejected experts because it suited their agenda to win an election, which required aligning with the populists. Now we have Corona they rely on the specialists again, indeed they follow the advice from the experts. Presumably it is advantageous to have the capability to put the blame on the specialists later on when it all goes wrong.

It was a quier state of affairs where privelidged establishment Tory toffs where in alignment with working class anti establishment anti truth populists. The Tory's played them for fools for their own agendas.

I like your thesis, but personally I don't take all that much interest in the processes of physical material, because to come to a comprehensive, or theory of everything, understanding, certainly one amenable to science, is an onerous task. When physical material is little more than a tool, a substrate.

What is of more interest is the ideal(mind), and more fundamental (let's say spiritual for example) levels of reality. But trying to rendering those in a way acceptable in academia is even more of a quagmire.
Along with a susceptibility to the accusation of pseudoscience, woo, or plain idealism.

I find there is more likely to be a meshing with academia via personal spiritual development.

Mysticism to some extent involves the concept of freeing oneself from the constraints of the mundane (viz the whole monastic tradition is a separation from the worldly).

Comparably, scientific theories or worldviews can sometimes become trapped in dead ends, which require a radical rethinking of core beliefs (paradigm shifts). Likewise individuals can become trapped in self-reinforcing frameworks of prejudiced beliefs.

So if mysticism aims explicitly at deconstructing mundane reality in order to work towards actualizing a more idealized version (as in the example of a monastic community) then I would say it absolutely does offer the possibility of something new, and potentially meaningful. Certainly at the very least as an exercise in self-discipline or introspective awareness.

Nice summary, do you study, or practice?

An intuition or experience can give us a starting point from which to investigate further, but it should always hold up to the scrutiny of logic and reason, or we risk ending up with delusion.

In the context of my personal experiences, I can use logic and reason to discern the genuineness of my experiences. If I conclude that my experiences were likely genuine, I can use logic and reason to try and filter understanding out of these experiences.

Yes I agree with this approach, for me treading the path of mystical enquiry is rather like how we deal with ordinary life, a process of having experiences, living mentally and emotionally with them, analysing them where they are of interest, or problematic, seeking more where of interest, less where problematic issues are identified. But differing from normal life where more disciplined, or structured practices are undertaken, for example meditation, or contemplation of an esoteric text. Such alternative processes can give a different take on experience, so that one can cross reference in the spirit of, or part of a structured attempt to break out of previous conditioning.

Along side such practices there are processes of introspection, in which one analyses yourself, this can be structured, or intuitive. So as to identify conditioning, trauma, weaknesses, strengths etc within your person. This then becomes like a kind of preening (to use analogy).

Alongside such practices are those in which one attempts to reach out, to commune with the wider world, or a divinity of some kind. The aim being at a later stage, re orientation with the divine, or nature, so as to deconstruct and rebuild the self as a transfigured individual, rather like zzoneiroCosm's Maslow practices, of self actualisation. The main difference as I see it between my reading of the process and his is that for me the transfigured self is seeking communion and deeper, or underlying, alignment with formative process in nature, or the divine nature, particularly in which one becomes a divine agent within a greater purpose. For me this agency is not conscious, for many reasons, but rather like a grace, or fortuitous happenstance.

I am aware of those points. My point was that in the UK it might require to much tracing (for our tracing teams) to be able to work effectively when we come out of lockdown, due to the amount of infected people at the point of unlocking. If the infection had not spread so widely before the lockdown, there would be less infected people at this critical point.

In the UK there is a lot of virus circulating continually due to what is only a partial lockdown. Unless there are sufficient resources put into dampening down each local spike around the country R will go above 1 and the lockdown will have to be resumed. This is not really about whether the hospitals will be overwhelmed, but whether R can be controlled during a partial unlocking.

I meant more in lines of trying to appreciate/consider individual perspectives and the general narrative function embedded in communication.

Yes, unique perspectives I expect. Perhaps this is why it is best to spend time in person with the person in question. For me the best understanding of the mystical experience of someone else was achieved by spending a few weeks together with another aspirant.

I am not familiar with literary theory.

Never heard that one before. Spliffs are build like carrots, though.

Been there done that got the tshirt.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PObknmaH9po

Attempts were made to do that in NYC. The virus was already present, though. They were too late to contain it. At that point, locking down only saves lives in that it keeps the hospital system from being overloaded so that patients don't die of hypoxia, dehydration, DKA, etc. for lack of any care at all.

Same for the economy. If you're able to contain the virus, you could minimize the effect on the economy. Otherwise, you're at the mercy of the way the virus interacts with your particular population.

Yes, the US did have enough notice, just like the UK they didn't take it seriously to begin with. Now in the UK some commentators are suggesting that we may not be able to unlock significantly for a long time. The tracing app is being prepared, but it may not be effective enough to keep R below 1. Also the virus is widespread in the community, so there might be to much infection for the tracing to be manageable.

There are questions being asked about if the lockdown was called to late, which is code here for, it was to late, by about 2 weeks.

Currently the UK has now recorded the highest death count in Europe at around 30,000 and the death rate is not going down anytime soon, as care home deaths are still increasing.

The economy is in a bad place too and how it's going to be got back to anything near normal is going to be a long time off.

The clowns have spilled out of the government onto the page. I hope it's not infectious.

The above points might have just touched on something that many people have issues with. That is the idea of ‘thinking’ that isn’t verbal. Some people find that extremely hard - I guess they lack the ability to purposefully visualize in high resolution.

I practice the ability to think on other ways than those instilled by conditioning along with alternative kinds of knowing.

Ah, but if the old people unfortunately die of Corona, it's not a problem anymore. We need less immigrants then because there's less work for them to do. Win win. I'm sure that Cummings is thinking of the economic boom after the Black Death in the Middle Ages. It literally solves all their problems. No wonder Steve Baker and the Tory Grandees (billionaire backers) are calling for the lockdown to be lifted.

Oh and that one about robots doing the menial jobs is a classic ( I reminisce about Frank Zappa' Joe's Garage, cyborg). They'll be wiping our arses and various other roles I don't want to mention.

How many thousands I'm sure I've moved more than that. I've moved over 15 tons in the last couple of weeks and I'm older than you.

Whatever floats your boat, I would say.

Are you suggesting that there should not be secularization within mysticism? If so, why?

No, rather that it can become an obstacle in discussing mystical experience, philosophy etc. I mentioned it because for me mysticism is primarily about the self, not religion, or God. This is not to deny anything about religion, or God, but rather they are not of importance within the practice. Others may disagree.

says a lot about your ilk.

But I am of your ilk remember, I'm working class from up north.

that’s why I mentioned literary theory as one such point that is perhaps easier to access?

Do you mean a transcendence of meaning, as found in poetry, or a story?

I agree about the Tao Te Ching (I'm a bit rusty on that one)

The idea of gaining insight minus the logical labor we usually think is necessary is new isn't it?

Insight in mystical terms does not require logic, it does require a mind, but that is as an instrument of experience, the intellect is not necessarily involved in this.

I have had experiences like that too. They are so difficult to share through language.

Meditation aimed at inducing peak experiences a la Maslow.

Nice, I hadn't come across him. If I were to go down that route though, I would use contemplation as the primary means, although meditation would be some help in relaxing into mindfulness.

My focus would be the assimilation, or synthesis of the self with nature, which is rather like Maslow's actualisation, but not only actualising the person, but also the something beyond the self which could be described as something within nature, which is also in the self. The goal being in some sense a transfiguration of the self into a part of nature while also an actualised self.

I am not a massive Tory fan , they are just the best of what's available.

Nice, now these clowns are presiding over the highest death count in Europe and we're not finished yet, as the death toll in carehomes is still increasing.

Your careless support for these clowns is costing people's lives.

Indeed. The methods of mysticism are new but they lack credibility unless you want to take the mystics' words on it.

The methods are not new. Anyway, credibility is not important, rather an interest is what is important. I would point out though, that the laymans understanding of mysticism doesn't quite cover it. Rather like a laymans understanding of quantum theory as jgill pointed out. Pantagruel has got a handle on it, I think.

And when I speak I say even less.

I noticed, I didn't want to speak (say anything), but maybe I should have.

I'm a mystic - what do you want to know?

Where is the focus of your mysticism?

You always speak volumes in your silence Banno.

I think there is a problem in the west of vanity, or glamour when it comes this subject. To illustrate, I once knew a Guru who was put on a pedestal by his western followers. He would never touch them (except within the established religious rites) and they would intellectually if not physically cower, or revere in his presence. Whereas with his Asian followers there was a lot of physical contact, no intellectual cowering. It all seemed more relaxed and natural like family. He once ran his hand through my hair out of the blue, in a casual setting and I was aware of a ripple of a reaction through the western followers, I sensed some of his greatness had rubbed of onto me in their eyes. There was also a feeling of jealousy amongst devotes who had not received such treatment over years of devotion and yet I had only been there a week. There was a tangible difference in the way everyone reacted to me afterwards.

There is also the peculiar vanity and fear around not knowing what one is talking about, which might explain why in your case the others where reluctant to engage. There is a sense amongst western followers of a secret mystery, or knowledge which the guru (by definition) understands, but which is not bestowed upon the followers. This can cause a sense of inadequacy in which the follower feels stupid, that he/she cannot even understand the simplest thing about what is going on. Indeed one can feel like an empty vessel intellectually just going through the motions of the practice with a gaping hole of emotional and intellectual inadequacy inside.

All these things are western vanities which one has to overcome before one can make progress, I think many people never get past this stage. I don't think the practitioners in the original cultural setting where the guru came from experienced any of these problems. This not to say that they didn't experience another set of culturally developed problems of their own.

What I am saying is that there are a host of cultural problems in attempting to transfer Eastern practices to the west.

No shit, down our way we call one like that a Camberwell carrot.

Thankyou for allowing such a lowly working class fool as me teach you my liege.

Beware handwaving ;)

Has something been blocked? I noticed that the Spartans tried to block something.

I saw Steve Baker, a spartan, on the box today desperate to get us out of lockdown. All his Singapore on Thames dreams in tatters.

I wonder why we were enlisting slaves to do our nursing, and countless low paid frontline jobs. It must be globalisation undercutting our industries that did it.

Well, that clears everything up..

Not quite, that is a description of the Catholic tradition, although I have little to argue with in there. If one is to talk about talking about mysticism, how the exhalted state is achieved might be of interest.