Where have you been the last three years, I need someone to debate with. Brexiters are thin on the ground around here. I wonder why that is?

All thanks to a country where capitalism reigns and any kind of welfare state is an after thought. Even in Britain which is heading in that direction, the measures are going to mitigate against mass unemployment. Although the general slump will not be avoided.

If the cash evaporates as quickly as you suggest, then the only answer for the US is a universal income. Put the money where the hungry mouths are.

Trump's modus operandi is the political equivalent of the psychological disorder known as Munchausens syndrome by proxy. TDS is an extension of this adopted by his supporters.

The way I describe it is as if someone comes up to you and knees you in the leg, then immediately limps away claiming to any onlooker that you kneed them in the leg. You feel as if you've been mugged and if you then turn to the onlooker to explain what actually happened you look like the guilty party because you look unsettled and a bit tongue tied. Whereas the real attacker rehearses a well practiced routine of the genuine victim which at first sight is more convincing to the onlooker than the behaviour of the real victim.

Likewise the Trump supporter rehearses a well practiced position as an innocent victim of an irrational attack from a hater of Trump. In an environment in which the accusation of TDS is used at every opportunity along with accusations of fake news, alternative facts, labelling everyone who is not approved by Trump as a poor loser.

Trump then adopts the posture of a kind benevolent (successful) leader, kindly breaking it to everyone that these people with TDS are mistaken (weak) and resentful. This simultaneously implies that his views on the world and affairs is inviolable truth and everything else is devious conspiratorial attacks on this truth by Flawed individuals. The sleight of hand here is that he is fostering a political atmosphere in which everyone is morally corrupt, everyone is a liar, everyone is divisive in their actions. Then Trump and his supporters behave/pretend as though he is good, truthful, benevolent and a great leader. The classic behaviour of a confidence trickster while muggging someone.

Looks like there's a backlash against globalisation and it's the right who's gunning for it.

Careful you wouldn't want to knee the keyboard in the balls and give yourself a dead leg on top of your hurt leg ;)

Quite, and they are probably lining up Coronavirus to blame for the economic hit.
There are some big holes in this strategy though and a risk that they will alienate some of their support by pushing ahead while supposedly straining every sinew to save lives and livelihoods in the throws of a global pandemic.

James O Brian draws a comparison with some Brexit slogans, such as, "you lost get over it", now it could be, "they died get over it". Or the idea that according to Brexiters, it's ok to have economic damage in return for blue passports, whereas it's not ok to have economic damage and save lives in a global pandemic (some Brexiters have come out now to say that the lockdown is doing to much damage and we should get back to work).

I didn't know beige was so fashionable.

yes, she had been admitted initially, but then refused when her condition subsequently deteriorated. It looks like there was no consultation with the patient on the second occasion, just a blanket refusal.

There are many cases like this popping up in the media. There is surely some directive or instruction for frontline staff to refuse older patients from care homes. Perhaps the reason is that there is little point admitting elderly patients if they require ventilation for Covid, as it will most likely result in the patient dying anyway and occupy a ventilator which could be used for someone else. If this is the case, then poor communication, or instruction could result in all old patients being refused admission, or a lack of proper consultation with the patient due to age, or if they are in a care home. Resulting in the guidance being mis interpreted, applied.

Yes, I concur. I knew right from the beginning when they wheeled out Chris Witty that they were presenting groomed "scientific advice". Not that he is not a man of integrity, but rather he would have been groomed by the spin machine in Downing st.

Yes it's true, indeed when I googled it two almost identical stories came up, so this has happened twice to elderly women in the last few days. I have linked to this one, she was suspected of having Covid, which was probably why she was not admitted. The other lady definitely didn't have symptoms. The other story is in a toxic newspaper (The Sun), I won't poison you by linking to it.

https://www.channel4.com/news/revealed-elderly-woman-dies-after-being-refused-admission-from-glasgow-hospital

you might need to look a bit further back.

Yesterday Michel Barnier gave a speech pointing out that there has been no progress in the trade talks between the UK and the EU. That the UK team is not engaging seriously and repeatedly presents its dogmatic starting position as the way it is going to be, or no deal. The concerns presented by the EU negotiators are ingnored. Basically the talks are going nowhere and the UK refuses to discuss the possibility that the transition period might be extended, which must be requested by the end of June.

I saw an interesting story on the news lastnight which illustrates how things in our society can change over a few weeks from something horrible which could never happen, to something normal, that people may say is sad, or unfortunate, but which they nevertheless shrug their shoulders about and move on.

Here in the UK, there has been every few days someone on the media saying that the government has instructed hospitals not to admit elderly people who have symptoms like Covid symptoms. Especially if they are coming from a care home and that this is not right, it means they are left to die, in an environment populated with the most vulnerable members of our society.

Anyway in the story there was an elderly lady who had broken her arm in the carehome and the hospital refused to admit her for treatment for her arm because she was to old, she was 83. The reason was she was older than 65, suggesting that they would not admit anyone over 65 for anything.

She remained in the carehome and died a few days later. Now there is outrage that an old person with a broken bone was not treated and subsequently died. If she had Covid, no one would have cared. We have accepted that the government has decided not to prioritise the elderly in this pandemic, even though they are the most vulnerable group and that there is policy actively preventing them being treated. We know there is no point making a fuss about it because no one will listen, the government certainly won't listen and the media is already tired of it.

Is there a reason why NOS4A2 is being treated like this?

It isn't his manner, it's what he's saying. He so often trots out dogma from Trump's playbook and claims that those who call him out are doing the same from the Democratic side of the argument. Even people like me who don't live in the US, or take a side in US politics.

The principle modus operandi is, hey I'm not lying, look at the other guy he's the one that's lying. The aim being to paint everyone as lying, so there is no objective truth anymore. Cross this with "doublethink", claiming to support, or discuss both sides of any argument, so that which ever side looks most favourable following events is what you were predicting and supporting, all along. Etc etc.

And as a last resort, Oh, I was being sarcastic, so it's alright if I told everyone in the country to inject with cleaning fluid while thousands of fellow citizens are dying in the deadliest pandemic for centuries. I didn't mean it I was being sarcastic.

I doubt it, he could claim he was coerced. It has to be something weak* which he can't possibly blame on someone else.

It's interesting the thought had a president or prime minister could govern the country from a jail cell. During the Brexit debacle, the unlawful preroging of parliament, there was a possibility that the Prime minister could be sent to prison and his supporters were shouting that he would continue to run the country and have their support while in jail. Johnson didn't shirk from the possibility.

*any kind of mental aberration, or illness would be insufficient.

Was listening to a guy who was looking for something Trump could do which would turn his supporters away. The only thing which anyone thought could do it was if he was a closet gay, or bum boy. Shooting someone on 5th avenue, or saying anything at all wouldn't have the same effect.

I had been advising people to gargle on an alcohol solution, something you can get at most drug stores, or liquor stores. But now we have this new science around disinfectants, I've realised where I'm going wrong, I already gargle on Listerine, that's the way to go, I'm such a genius, I was already doing the right thing, I just need to gargle deeper flush my whole body through.

Spread the word.

Who should we rely on to advise us on public health issues?

We already have a guy, didn't you know, he's really great, his advice is beautiful. Really, really it's so simple you just flush the body, the inside of the body with this beautiful thing and it disappears.

For @NOS4A2: We Are Living in a Failed State

Nice article.

I do try to teeter on that fine edge between being profound and being absurd.

Have you revealed a hidden mystic in there?

Those memes sounds familiar.

Sounds boring. If you're stuck in the spinning swirling crashing death spin, you might as well enjoy the ride. Do you want your last breaths to be spent trembling and clinging to whatever you can hold onto until it too fractures into a million pieces?

It's the response of the unscarred soul that has never experienced true devastation, so it lives with the illusion that there really is stability to lose. True optimism is forged in trauma, so the most fearful are those who haven't ever felt walked in sufficient darkness, so they live their lives trying to avoid it, which only leads them to something worse. It's that frigid timid place of worry and fret where you hold onto whatever makes you feel stable, despite you're not realizing that whatever it is you hold onto is infinitely more fragile than the divinity impregnated in you. If you'd only step away and stand on your solid feet, you'd realize that is the only thing that won't falter.

Sort of an interesting post I think?

Such an excellent description of Trump and you didn't even know you were doing it.

It’s wrong to assume immigrants only occupy low-grade jobs.

Are you sure about that ( to the extent that it is relevant o the argument).

But if a company has difficulty attracting workers they need to become more competitive on the job market.

It's not that simple, it's the kind of work. British workers won't do these jobs even if they are paid twice as much.

NOS4A2 is in on the con, he knows that Trump is all things to all people, a snake oil salesman. The way it works is he says both sides of a political argument so that he can claim the credit for which ever side comes out on top. This way he can do no wrong in the way eye of his supporters. Say he's asked to call the toss of a coin, he will say both heads and tails like a confidence trickster and then which ever way the coin lands he will claim he said that side.

If you are in on the act, it all makes sense and you can support it because there is a hidden agenda which is being furthered while he is politically successful.

I know all this because the exact same thing has been going on in the UK, so I have two equivalent examples to analyse.

But US citizens won't do those low grade low paid jobs. It's the same problem we've got in the UK. Now large numbers of Eastern European workers have gone home, which the Brexit backing government was urging them to do. UK citizens aren't stepping in to fill those low grade jobs. A consortium of farmers is chartering planes to bring in seasonal workers from Romania to bring in the harvest, because The British workers won't do it. Even though the Brexiters have been assuring us for two years that UK workers will fill these vital jobs.

Evidence of a lack of joined up thinking.

Its a pointless exercise, wherever they fly in from there will be less infected people than there are in the US. The Mexicans will be building that wall to keep them (US citizens) out.

Perhaps mathematical modelling will be important in strategy to come out of lockdowns. In reality though, I think strategy is not complicated here, but is dependent on the understanding of the nature of the virus. Because we don't know if we will have a vaccine, if people will develop immunity, or for how long etc.

I'm always wary of assigning positions to 'brainwashing'. Not because it's not appropriate, but because I don't think it's helpful.

Yes, I should have said grooming (I don't like the sound of the word), their narratives have been groomed. I don't think the true narrative is problematic in this instance because the strategy (to reduce transmission) simply requires social distancing, the stay at home narrative is simple, obvious and can be seen to work. Here in the UK there are government announcements in all media all day stating;

This is a national emergency, stay home, help the NHS, save lives. Anyone can catch it, anyone can spread it, stay home, help the NHS, save lives.

This narrative is very powerful and can be seen to work.

You're right about the signal that's driving this, but with 7 million premature deaths linked to air pollution, the same could be said of anyone driving their car into the town centre. With 1.9 million deaths from diarrhoeal diseases directly related to poverty, the same could be said of anyone not paying a fair price for agricultural products from developing countries. It comes down to beliefs about the weight of responsibility vs autonomy.

Interestingly this crisis shines a light on the flaws in our accepted status quo. Our lifestyles are peppered with failings like air pollution deaths, exploitation of the less well off and foreign farmers, destruction of the environment etc. etc. When one thinks about this state of affairs (and I think more people will do at a time like this), one can see how our governance, regulation, social norms etc are imperfect and such failings are inevitable and inertia within the systems and belief systems makes it hard for do gooders to affect change.

Is it such a juxtaposition though? I see what you mean, but the responsible media (and even scientists) are not made up of people magically immune from influence by their social groups. We shouldn't mistake the clear boundaries to reasonable belief created by science for a guide to 'right' belief. It's not the same thing at all.

Yes the media and social norms are propagating groomed narratives in the UK, for example the grooming that socialism is destructive and conservatism is fiscally responsible by comparison has been ingrained in the social discourse for more than a generation and is seen as normality, truth. But when one takes a closer look there is a continuous stream of propaganda required to maintain this bias. Propaganda which would not be required if it were the truth it's purported to be. Whereas in reality that conservatism has resulted in a hollowing out of the welfare state, underfunding of local councils and civil resources, greater wealth inequality and exploitation of the not wealthy by profiteering capitalists. The propaganda is also utilised to distract attention on these inequalities and sweep the truth under the carpet.

The point is that I think feeling one's life (or those of ones close social group) is at risk really undercuts beliefs which were held only for convenience, but it does not dent those which were held fundamentally. I guess America has more fundamentalists.

Its not clear at this stage how many folk in the UK are fundamentalists, the light has only just started shining on them and they are hiding in the shadows. The one at the top of government has been flushed out, fortunately, Dominic Cummings, who has become irrelevant and presumably doesn't want to get his hands dirty with having to do some real work and help with the logistical nightmare of this crisis. The two main groups of fundamentalists have gone quiet, I suspect that one of them the middle class who fell for the anti EU rhetoric are beginning to wake up a bit to their maliability.

Yeah, my life has been turned upside down, I used to spend all day inside working on my computer and only going out to exercise, and now I spend all day inside working on my computer and only go out to exercise within 2km of my home. :lol:

Same, no change in my lifestyle. The big loss for me is the charity shops have closed, my wardrobe is going to get behind the times now.

Its gonna be a scream in Atlanta.

Just cross-reference a couple of my posts and fill in the blanks.
— NOS4A2

I did, and the blank was filled with he's lying.

I just cross referenced the post where his gran just died and he's been retired for a few years. Something doesn't compute.

The UN is now predicting famines of “biblical” proportions within the next few months.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-52373888

If this does come to pass, it will be a man-made catastrophe.

Time to give some help ( subs) to international organisations put in place to help with such crises. Rather than let vanity get in the way.

In any scenario, the economy will be badly affected.

I have to agree with this. The bottom line is that we have to adjust to a way of living which limits the spread of the virus sufficiently that it can be kept under control. I think the economy can be kept running as well, but the necessary adjustments are not easy for communities to adopt sufficiently. Each country seems to have imposed a lockdown when this equation was not going to be possible to sustain. The quicker communities adjust, the quicker they can go back to work.

The adjustment looks like a regime of widespread testing and contact tracing, social distancing measures where people remain at least 2m apart. Wear masks, possibly gloves in certain circumstances and sanitise or wash their hands regularly when in public places. Bars and restaurants will have to have customers widely spaced and take care not to let the virus get into their kitchens, or behind the bar. Unfortunately large mass gatherings are going to have to wait longer before we can return to these due to difficulties with spread.

— Hanover

With regard to federal regulations over dangerous chemicals and worker safety requirements, the FDA and OSHA are fairly tight regulators, and, I don't know if you've been in the US, but we are an incredibly safe society due to the threat of litigation being around every corner.

I suggest you take a look at DuPont and their antics with Ammonium perfluorooctanoate (C8) and other chemicals for example.

Now we are seeing the brainwashed people coming out to protest in the US. Trump seems to be thrashing around in different directions and is becoming more and more unhinged. Like a death cult his followers will follow wherever he leads and the signal cutting through is that they need to keep working and going out as normal rather than stay at home, to make America great again, rather than stall the economy and sink back into depression.

Trump is trying to present himself as a stable genius who has got a handle on this virus and is taking all the right actions and responses. But it has unravelled because the only message cutting through is that the messages coming out from the rest of the world about social distancing and fighting the virus through stopping its spread in public spaces, are a con, a conspiracy to make The West shut down its economies. Trump seems to be turning on the governors and confusing the message again.

I agree with your thoughts on the media, it seems to have come to a head in the countries which have embraced the populism sweeping the world. Here in the UK we have a curious juxtaposition between the populism and a sense of civil obedience and cooperation. The populist media has been in the ascendancy during the Brexit debacle, resulting in a rightwing populist government getting into office. But as soon as their populist message became superseded by a global pandemic the populism has become curiously silent and the population has fallen into line behind the instructions of the medical experts. The populists in government have become impotent in their agendas, and have found themselves having to manage a war like response to a health emergency. The opposite of what they fought to deliver when they sought office. Also partly due to the reverence for the BBC the population is obediently following a media message orchestrated by a well ordered and responsible media.

Lol

Is the swamp full of oil that can't be sold at any price?

What's happening to the oil price in the US?

I will give your thoughts more thought as I only see large numbers of vague(in the sense of being unknown this early in the pandemic) and wide ranging thoughts across all the factors involved in this crisis. I don't think I am in a position to reinterpret it in my language. Also I am inclined to return to the political and socio economic developments of the crisis, which is more my area.

I agree with your assessment here (not including the disagreement with boethius, because I am still trying to work that out), but as it is not my area to get into statistics, I will leave that there for now. But I will respond to your comments on politics and the media later as that is more of interest for me.