Why is it apparently never enough simply to say that I cannot doubt the occurrence of certain experiences? We can build our knowledge up from our own experiences.

Normally I would agree with you, but this thread is about certainty. So when you have certainty about an experience, what is it you are certain of?

I agree with you when it comes to questions about the unknown. I don't use the word believe, for the same reasons you give. However I have no issue with the philosophy of epistemology. Jtb is appropriate for philosophies which address human issues, humanities, politics etc.

But this thread is not about that, it is about certainty, the certainty of reality. So jtb is irrelevant and we both have to rely on logic and a kind of thinking which ignores human issues, beliefs and ways of thinking.

This leaves me at the position expressed in this phrase. "I know, therefore there is something"

Sh*t this might go viral.

”I think, therefore I am”.

I prefer "I think therefore there is something". Because it can be debatable what "I am" means.

The problem is that we can't be certain about what we think we are certain about. Or what it is, or what is real and what isnt real.

For example, we don't know what consciousness is, or at least how it comes to exist. We do know with certainty that we have an experience, which we call consciousness. Also we don't really know what I am, what, or who, is having the experience.

So we are certain of something, but there is little certainty of what exactly we are certain of.

Right, this was the point I was making. Fundamentally art is something to get inspiration from, not something to get meaning from. However, this does not mean that art is something we cannot get meaning from.

I can't see where there is a disagreement between us.

I hear what you are saying about pandemics, but I agree with Benkei, that this virus is so highly contagious that it is different to the other pandemics.

I can't see anyway to avoid it becoming globally endemic. The only way we are to avoid this is through effective vaccination, which will take over a year and to administer it widely will take a long time.

Are you alright, did you get out of the wrong side of the bed this morning?

Firstly I wasn't aware that I was having an argument with Janus. Secondly, I'm not a eugenicist, I'm discussing the effects and efforts to combat coronavirus.

You can't be mistaken that you're conscious and have a mind. You could be wrong about the properties of your own mind, or about what, exactly, consciousness is, but you can't be wrong about the salient points: you have a conscious mind.

Yes I agree that one, apparently, can't be mistaken that one is conscious and has a mind and that as an explanation it is generally sufficient. But this thread is about certainty.

So when it comes to certainty, one has to consider alternatives to that certainty, however irrational they may be. Merely their possibility means they negate that certainty.

In reality the human mind finds itself existing in a place surrounded and built upon impenetrable unknowns, including circumstances where logic fails us too. This being the case your assumption that consciousness and mind exist as we experience them and that this is certainly the case is vulnerable to criticism of the extent and relevance of human knowledge to reality.

The only thing we know for certain is there is at least one conscious mind. Everything else is speculation with no justifiable foundation.

We can't claim to know what it is that exists. Our experience and knowledge of conscious minds may be naive, mistaken, or a fabrication.

The only thing that anyone can be sure of is that there is something. But they can't be sure what it is, where it is, or how it came to exist.

We have 12 new cases in the UK today, some of whom contracted it in the country, from an unknown source. Apparently there has been a jump to 1,000 in Iran, I expect this is an underestimate. Also South Korea is saying that efforts to trace people who have had contact with infected individuals is failing. So it is showing signs of spreading more widely now, with countries failing to contain it.

How about part of the response is not having children?

I sympathise with your sentiment, but it is not that simple. Say some regions do that and their enemies don't then their enemies will overpower them in the future. Also there is the demographic problem of an aging population not being supported by younger people.

I think some kind of managed reduction in population is the way forward. However what is more likely that we will have an unmanaged, unplanned reduction.

On the plus side a great depression or collapse might contribute towards ameliorating the effects of carbon emissions.

Yes and it might sober us up a bit, from this drunken populist malaise.

I hear you, there is the issue of how people and leaders address this crisis. Do they close borders and prevent the spread across the world, while crashing their economies. Or do they just let it in an take a hit to their population.

It is a catch 22, where do we turn?
Hopefully a cure all vaccine will be produced, but that may take more than a year and then God knows how long to administer it. Also it may mutate and the vaccine might not be very effective.

Perhaps this is the corner we turn towards the fading out of our civilisation.

Thanks for that I'm a big Coltrane fan.

I agree with your observation of an artist not knowing what he/she is creating subliminally. I have an insight with many artists of how they are trying to reach this subliminal narrative. For me Picasso is the clearest example. I can see how his style developed, what he was trying to achieve, how he struggled and so often failed to grasp his vision. Also his subliminal messages.

Indeed he addressed this directly in his Vollard Suite, a collection of drawings in which Picasso explores the artist's studio of an artist attempting to capture the beauty of life itself with the aid of his lover and muse. Over the course of the suite he lays his psyche bare, I doubt it was his intention, but it is there for the perceptive viewer to see.
Here is one of the earlier sketches

And here is one towards the end of the suite where Picasso( in the subliminal viewing) has become a blind, impotent Minotaur, a figure he was to become in his later years. Crippled by his loss of virulence, youth and new vision.

The intentions in the conscious mind are only a small part of what is going on.

Yes, this nails it, along with the fact that an artist is informed by previously being a viewer of art.

So art is a touch stone through which artists and viewers of art live an aesthetic narrative. I see the spiritual angle come back into view here.

I'm surprised he hasn't said it yet, that coronavirus is a Chinese plot. If thousands of US citizens die, what will the spin become. Maybe, it's all for the fault of Congress, they tied my hands. Or thank the lord that I was able to reduce the deaths to only a few thousand.

And whatever the spin is his base will drink it up like the elixir of life. Drunk on the power without reason, or justification, just neat raw power.

But "decadence" actually means in its original sense, in French, "Death, dying, the dying process".

Thanks, I get it now. There was a part of me thinking something along those lines.

Regarding the 2%, I agree with your view that it is a low mortality rate. The problem is that in our modern societies allowing 2% of the population to die without trying to prevent it is anathema. So we will commit economic hari kari and probably still loose 2%.

The only choices available were all against their interests.... Not sure if that can be attested to control and manipulation of information or just plain ole untrustworthy insincere political leadership.

Here in the UK, the populists most certainly did manipulate the information and media, including social media and persuaded two specific constituencies to vote leave in the EU referendum. So clearly voting against their interests. The unfortunate thing is that it is probably irreversible now.

While in the process of politicizing the Coronavirus, Trump claims that the Democrats are politicizing it.

It's known as Munchausen's syndrome by proxy. All the populists are doing it, it's a well known snake oil salesmans trick.
To illustrate, I have experienced it myself, as I have a relative who suffers from the condition. She would walk up to me and knee me in the leg, then immediately fain a limp claiming that I had kneed her in the leg. The people witnessing the deceit, don't know who kneed who in the leg. But will believe the deceiver because they are skilled at reacting as the victim and the person they actually kneed is shocked and confused, so appears less plausible.

The populist Home Secretary in the UK government is doing it at the moment against the top civil servant in the country, leading him to resign and state that he is going to sue the government today.

I don't know if you realize the pun you uttered.

I still don't, where is it?

In that sense, the somewhat hysterical media reporting might end up being helpful, slowing the spread significantly

I don't see it as hysterical ( that may be the media I watch), the hysteria spreads readily. I live a long way from the nearest case of the virus and already I find myself modifying my behaviour, I was in my local supermarket today and people were clearly panic buying (discretely), including myself. And this in a country of 66 million and only 23 confirmed cases. Basic food stuffs had nearly sold out. Imagine what it will be like when there are a few thousand, or hundred thousand cases.

I'm preparing for the point where the country is locked down and we are all told to stay home for a few weeks, or months. I know it is not certain that this will happen, but better to be prepared.

It will soon have a foothold in many countries without the adequate resources to prevent it becoming endemic. This means that in future travel will have to be severely limited, if we are to keep some countries free of the virus. Also we don't know how effective any vaccines are going to be.

The fact that an artist is a connoisseur of art prior to making the piece informs the piece.

Maybe it will wake us up. Maybe we will continue to be jerks and only deal with crises when they are upon us.

Yes, hopefully we will wake up. I think the younger generation are ones who can see the challenges. Most of the older generation are either hiding their heads in the sand or reverting to a world view from about 50 years ago. This inertia has always been our downfall, turned opportunity into malaise, or stubborn defiance of change. Well change will be thrust upon us now.

A great turn out for Greta today in Bristol. Are you listening?

That's unfortunate, if I had shares I would have sold them before now and invested in real estate. The value will remain high until the housing crisis is solved, not likely anytime soon.

And decadence.

I don't think any country will be able to prevent the epidemic spreading through their population. They might be able to slow it. But they don't want to shut their borders, which is what they will need to do.

Do young people seem like incredibly naive spoiled brats to you? Just wondering.

Yes, in the UK it was caused by parents mollycoddling when political correctness got involved in school discipline and smacking was banned at home etc.

Worse than being spoiled is that they won't do physical work. In the UK, the government is telling us that now they are going to stop seasonal low paid workers from coming in from the EU, our own young and inactive workers will have to be trained to pick fruit and vegetables and care for old people in care homes. They just won't do it. The government is incompetent though, which I expect you knew already.

He's such a stable genius.

That's ok, no worries, you don't need to delete the post.

An interesting scenario would be a world wide pandemic with a mortality of between 1and 2%. Presumably before this point, some countries would shut their borders. We would have massive economic disruption. The stock markets are having a hissy fit already.
— Punshhh

All of which are good things. The overheated stock market needs some cooling off, borders need to be controlled again, and the supply chains need to be made less dependent on China. Good, good, good. How ironic that it takes a China-made virus to push us in that direction.
--nobeernolife

I don't think I need to add anything to this, I suppose.

Shouldn't that be 10-20,000 deaths per million, (i.e. 1-2%)?
Yes, large sporting events will be some of the first gatherings to be cancelled, the Olympics in Japan for example. Also we have parts supply chains from Chinese manufacturers starting to fail. There will be lots of knock on effects. It's going to become endemic in regions like the Middle East, Cambodia, Bangladesh, Vietnam etc, and Africa. So these regions will become no go areas until an effective vaccine is available, if that is even possible.
I take your point about the stock market, but what if they perceive impending doom, with no short term recovery?

If you answer my ?, then I answer your ? Seems fair.

I don't know if the points I have made about Brexit over the last year can be reduced that way.
Can you give me a single tangible benefit of Brexit?

can you explain why you are talking about democracy? I didn't mention, or infer it.

I presume you are in the US?, as you don't sound to be familiar with European politics.

Well Brexit is going to be interesting from Thursday when the government is going to spell out its negotiating position.

Today the NFU (National Farmers Union), has woken up from its slumber following the fact that the majority of farmers voted for Brexit. The Brexit scales have fallen from their eyes now that reality bites. Today they have asked for an exemption of 70,000 low wage EU seasonal workers to help bring in the crops. When the government announced that there will only be an allowance of 10,000. They have also had a wake up call following the widespread floods and the damage to crops and farmland caused by the new weather. Slowly they are realising that once there is regulatory and tariff divergence from the EU, that many farmers will have tariffs of around 40% imposed from their main markets. And that when the lower US food standards flood the market with cheaper food, which has been acknowledged this week by the trade secretary. The farmers will be unable to compete and most of them will go out of business.

It's unfortunate that the government doesn't care about such smallfry and is going full steam ahead to a low regulation, low tariffs race to the bottom, so as to make Britain great again.

This thread is about coronavirus, so it would be better to continue this line of discussion on the Brexit thread.

You realise do you not, that the pandemic you are in favour of could kill 1-2% of the population before a sufficient vaccination plan is in operation?

I suppose you are also in favour of a correction in population.