Well our country is still reeling from the correction in 2008. Following 10 years of fierce austerity, most of our local and district councils and public services are teetering on the edge of bankruptcy. Unless you're in the top 5 - 10% in terms of wealth it feels like 10 years of steady biting economic decline.
If we get, or need any other correction now, we will begin to feel widespread economic collapse.

We really don't need a rightwing populist government right now. Who are going to bash the poor some more. Not to mention one which is going to drive us of a cliff with Brexit.

Yes, we really do need some cooling off right now.

Happy that it's not an issue, it's just one of many respiratory viruses.

Economic shrinkage = economic decline, in our current capitalist system. The wealth we had been enjoying before the sub prime mortgage crash was built on a vast bubble. The world economy has been staggering along since and the chaos of populism sweeping the world at the moment, oh and not to mention the pandemic, economic decline is pretty much inevitable at the moment.

That is a rather naive view, has it occurred to you that capitalism requires endless growth and expansion? You are advocating economic decline, or at least shrinkage.

I think it would be worth pointing out at this stage that the word Enlightenment is a blanket term used to describe a wide spectrum of exalted states. It will cause numerous disagreements unless the users specify what they mean by it.
For example, does it mean one who attains Nirvana? Or does it refer to someone who achieves some degree of Samadhi? Both entirely different states, one requiring a Nirvanic realm of existence, the other requiring no spiritual realm at all, necessarily.

Are you happy with a new endemic virus which is highly contagious and a mortality rate of between 1 and 2%?

It wouldn't be long before everyone would know someone who has died from it and it could develop a higher mortality rate in the future.

An interesting scenario would be a world wide pandemic with a mortality of between 1and 2%. Presumably before this point, some countries would shut their borders. We would have massive economic disruption. The stock markets are having a hissy fit already.

Reported tentative mortality rates range from 2 - 15%, with the caveat that the methodology at this point cannot yield an accurate figure.

My concern is that when the virus becomes endemic in the Middle East, that it will become a breeding ground and a more deadly strain would develop. Unfortunately I don't have sufficient knowledge to make an educated guess as to the likelihood of such a development.

You must have had a good look at that painting ;)

Such as???

This is a big subject, which is approached from a number of schools of thought and practice, each with their own terminology, so can get confusing due to a different understanding, interpretation of the same words. So I would ask you to be prepared to agree to come to an agreed meaning of such a word, where there is a disagreement, also to accept that some of these differences are already established within philosophical, or theological discourse and may result in an insurmountable difference in opinion, or meaning.

As you put three question marks, I will give you three alternative practices.

1, the deconstruction and rebuild of the personality, via an understanding of conditioning.
2, the control and utilisation of the ego, in the use of emotions.
3, the development of a coherent personal philosophy and learning to seamlessly apply it to one's personal spiritual journey.

But what about the carbon footprint of those giant scrubbers!?

All these things you mention can be practiced seriously and in a controlled manner by someone who has the capacity to do so. Or be guided through by an expert within a religious, or spiritual group.

What you describe as causing insanity does happen and I've seen it. I think this is a result of trying to force a process, or where unstable people are attracted to such a lifestyle, which only makes it worse.

On the ground, or anywhere else for that matter, we may derive the benefit (primarily meaning) of religion and/or manipulate ourselves into a state of what is typically referred to as “transcendence.” The experience of transcendence does not require a religious framework. The major benefits of a transcendent experience are that it subdues our sense of self or DMN neurology with the effect of reducing existential anxiety and depatterning the mind.

Agreed, although this does not diminish the benefits which may be available in religious orders. For example the monastic, religious, or spiritual life may involve such a transcendent process. However this may only be one of a number of exalted states/tools practiced/used during a living process/journey.

Now, if we are talking about art as a form of communication, we are talking about something abstract, and not individual pieces of artwork any more. Then we would need to proceed by asking what is the purpose of communication. What would be the purpose of randomness, or even ambiguity in communication

Again, this is a matter for philosophers, not for artists, viewers, the art establishment, the wider public. At least not as a requirement for art to be art. You suggest it becomes a process of communication, well yes and the artefact might become an irrelevance at some point during the communication. The ramifications would reduce the communication to communication/conversation within the mind of the viewer, even an emotional conversation within the viewer, the artist, is also one of these viewers. One can identify a conditioned response to an artwork, a human nature response,which could become a foil for the mind and the emotions. Leading to a complex reaction, interpretation and response to an artwork, or any comment on it.
Here is a work by one of my favourite artists, if you contemplate this, presumably you will experience all the stages of reaction, interpretation and response that I have outlined.


Really art has become unbounded, which means it can't be tied down philosophically, other than describing it as a human phenomena. To many and perhaps the art establishment, this freedom becomes a curse, an existential crisis. Where do we go now? Where will art go next?

Wasn't the physical work the blinking of the lights?

I think that is for the viewer to decide, that's not the way I saw it. Unfortunately I don't know what the artist statement said.

But I know that in reference to works like that, there is attention given to the possibility that the viewer/s become part of the work when they are in the room. Making the viewer susceptible to being viewed as part of the work.

Looks interesting, it's a long way for me to visit unfortunately.

Met Breuer was trash. Two small floors worth of disgusting modern art. Nothing requiring skill.

Agreed, (although I haven't visited myself).

Reminds me of Billy Graham rallies. The US is having trouble ripping off India in trade talks, so they wheel out the populism to twist the arms of the negotiators.

They claim that everything is empty. The body or mind makes no difference.

Yes, I don't deny that some do, but that is a philosophical interpretation, wheras on the ground, things are more complex and embedded in the cultures in which they originated and practice in a religious life is key.

Nice article, yes Zen is entirely practice based, a practice difficult to replicate outside the society in which it has developed and been practiced.

They claim that ignorance (of our true nature: emptiness) is the cause. You can’t suffer if there’s no you.

try telling your body that when, for example, you feel the cane of a Zen master on your back.
But more seriously, we are half physical body, a body which should be cared for. So the emptiness would be of the mind, while living a simple modest life with the body.

Perhaps leave Alan Watts to one side then, you could try D T Suzuki. But as I said find your local eastern philosophy bookstore and familiarise yourself with what's on offer. Do lots of reading from a wide variety of sources and try some practice. Without practice, the philosophy leaves you rather dry.

The philosophy of Zen can be conveyed in a paragraph or two, by many people. But without practice, it is rather meaningless.

I would say though, that I have come to the opinion that enlightenment, if it is a reality (and I reserve judgement on that), is only something which would happen to someone who's body/s have reached the correct level of physical/spiritual development and if that is not the case, no amount of sitting under the Bodhi tree, or meditating, or ascetism will change that.

Really the goal of a seeker of, what is suggested as the goal by Eastern religions, is to live in peace, compassion and humility. This might seem a simple enough ask, but in the human world, it is not at all easy to manage. And if one's body/s are at the appropriate stage/s of development a step forward may occur.

that attempting to control is futile so you automatically let go of it. You can't "induce" enlightenment it just happens to you. What I don't get is how that leads to the "end of suffering" that Zen purports to achieve.

The problem is that there are a myriad of sources of eastern philosophy and practice and no universally accepted interpretation. So you have to do the leg work yourself. Which is appropriate, because it is the journey which counts and if you are going to achieve anything it will be a living process, rather than an academic qualification.
For a start you could try books by Allan Watts, also Three Pillars Of Zen, by Roshi P. Kapleau was a favourite of mine. You should find your local eastern philosophy bookshop, or visit a Bhuddist centre.

I expect Trump will be spreading rumours about the rumours about Saunders being in collusion with the enemy.
The way he will do it will be to hint at the rumours in a joking, poking fun kind of way, such that on the media, it will come across as a serious statement, while winking at his audience, his base, hoodwinking them into going along with his roose on the suggestion that it is poking fun, or sarcasm.

You know, like those emails. Lock her up, send her back.

Snake oil salesman, sleight of hand stuff. A conjuring trick, rather than politics, to divide and deceive the American people. For nothing more than to give Trump what he wants, to stroke his ego, to make him a memorable president and secure his place in history. What happens to his country, his people in the meantime is irrelevant to him.

How would you present something imaginary as art, if not in a physical form? And, the physical form is the artwork, not the imaginary thing which is represented.

All the avenues of imaginary, or conceptual art were explored, covered and represented by artist during various art movements during the 20th Century.
For example, at a Sentations exhibition at the Royal Academy, which I attended in the 1990's. There was a gallery in which the lights were turned off and on again every few seconds. I don't know where, or what the physical form of the art piece was. There were no additions to the gallery space and the lights were controlled remotely. As the viewers passed through the gallery, they imagined, contemplated the artwork, while not knowing what, or where the work was. Some read the artist statement, some didn't, I don't remember what it said, or whether I read it. Some viewers will have imagined the physical artwork, some will have imagined a world of conceptual art where there aren't any physical traces of the work, but where the work exists as a concept in the minds of the viewers and the artist.

↪Punshhh Definitely. Easiest if you'd qualify as a highly skilled migrant and get a job in the Netherlands. After five years you could apply for naturalisation. You're highly skilled if:

you earn more than 29,149 EUR if you're 30 years or younger and have a masters degree or equivalent
you earn more than EUR 38,347 if you're above 30 years (no degree required
you do scientific research in the Netherlands

That also gives you a nice 30% reduction in taxes for five years

EDIT: aren't you British Punshhh? I think you can still move here before the end of the year. If you're employed I doubt the Dutchies will kick you out on the 1st of January 2021.

Yes, I did nearly move to France in the summer of 2018, but didn't in the end due to the uncertainty of Brexit. Now I have bought a nice new house with land in the UK, so am not going to be able to move to Europe anytime soon. I will keep an eye on what happens in Scotland as I would qualify for Scottish citizenship.

Actually, I think the reverse is true. If it is true that "anything", and "everything" is art, then we need philosophy to determine what a "thing" is, because by this conclusion if it's not a thing, it's not art. Claiming that non-existent things are art is where the others have been going, insisting that imaginary things are art. As if I can look at a piece of art and imagine all sorts of things which aren't there, and claim that this imaginary stuff is part of the art.

Not so, if anything and everything can be art, it is the artist who states what art is*, or if a philosopher were to state it, they would by default become the artist.

Do you not realise that something imaginary is art, or part of an art piece if the artist says it is so? The artist is king now, following the liberation of art during the 20th Century. This so called liberation is on ocassion regarded as the death of art, so may not be all that liberating.

You really do have to get out of the reductionist box now. The philosophy of art, as discussed on the other thread, has not been definitively spelled out and has to encapsulate the social and cultural considerations of humanity, or it fails to capture what it is attempting to account for. Such considerations include, imaginary and unreal forms. Take for example aboriginal art, which was handed down from the Dreamtime.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreamtime

*I restricted it to the artist here for simplicity, I do consider that the art establishment can deem something art, also.

What you say is a matter for philosophers, not for artists, or viewers.
How familiar are you with artistic developments of the 20th Century? Because this distinction and all other attempts restrict art were challenged up to the point where everything was art and anything could be art. I pointed this out in the other thread, " where is art going next".

This development made any analysis by philosophers irrelevant, just like it made any comments by critics irrelevant, to art.

You seem to be reducing the discussion to the physical object of the artwork. I have no objection to this, this a a focus of mine too. But I acknowledge an intellectual aspect both in its creation and appreciation.

I agree with your point about a work which relies on the statement for it to be art, then it may not be art. This is why I am hostile to conceptual art.

"Life as it is" what?

That's hard - some inner instinct bucks and shies from that - but what else to do?
When all else fails ... question your questions?

Put the mind to one side, attend to the feelings.

Personal humility is a starting point - I agree with this. Self-awareness, patience and integrity together enable us to recognise the potential distance between where we are and where we aim to be. There is not only humility in this, but also an awareness of lack, perhaps even pain. When we experience all three, we are ready to take the first step.

I should have been more specific, by humility, I mean within the person, rather than in human interaction. It is weird that humility in the person can be so benign and constructive whereas humility/humiliation in human interaction can be so destructive and divisive. Perhaps this distinction points to the importance of a focus within the person when considering these issues, rather than a consideration of human interaction*.

I would point out, you do still seem to be attributing something negative to personal humility?

For humility to be constructive it must become the inviolable touch stone of the spiritual life, this is its natural place. When one realises the personal humility in other mammals, our close relatives, one realises the obfuscation generated by our brains and minds, the Chitta Chatta.

* I acknowledge there is a social route to [edit]personal[edit] humility, but it is only really achieved within religious practice.

Do you think I can get a Dutch passport. I need a way out of this sinking ship!

In increasing awareness, an experience of humility calls for patience; in increasing connection it calls for gentleness; in increasing collaboration it calls for peace; and in relating awareness to connection, connection to collaboration and collaboration to awareness, it calls for compassion - a recognition that humility is a familiar experience for

Interesting you seem to be saying that humility is an affliction, an unfortunate feeling, like sadness, or grief. You are the first person I have come across in a thread like this who sees it this way. Perhaps in the passage above if you substitute the word engenders, or something like that for "it calls for" it would be more appropriate.

For me humility is the most powerful means of affecting change in oneself. In spiritual development personal humility is the cornerstone of the spiritual life. In most forms of self help, or personal development processes personal humility is the first lesson, the first step.

Oh boy, you really are a Charlton Heston.

I said I wasn't going to get involved.

I am not going to get involved in this difference of approach or opinion. But I think there is a bit of crossed purposes going on.

Do you use humility, or a correlate of humility, at all?

I am monumentally and crushingly in dispair, I can't believe that you haven't watched El Cid. He plays a heroic savior of the Christians in their battles with the Moors in Spain, in the same vein as Spartacus, but arguably a far better film. With Sophia Loren as support actress. Please don't tell me you haven't heard of her.

I see you as El Cid, charlton Heston's greatest role. They don't make movies like that anymore.

I have found that once you have found a way, or a few ways to settle back from the external things you can learn to settle. The key to this is the realisation that it is not a learning, but a relaxing, a moment of rest, a stillness.

Once you know the stillness then you can perhaps, if you wish, learn to (allow) it to remain, while you carry out your daily tasks.

Zen master Dogen wrote about this in Moon in a Dewdrop. His life was devoted to carrying out his day to day tasks, in a sense of an unhindered freedom/reverence.