It appeals to physics as the basis of its ontology, but when presented with the inconvenient fact that today's physics seems to undermine physicalism, it will say it is 'not bound by physics'. — Wayfarer

We ought to recognize this as the end of the rule of science. Physics has determined the limit to the usefulness of the scientific method. And what has been revealed is that there is a vast expanse which lies beyond that limit.

I don't know. The book is a confusing way to look at it, differing from the movie analogy, but it seems just as valid. The movie moves by itself, but not the book, which makes the movie comparison reflective of a mind independent reality that reveals seen or not. The book though requires a page turner. I guess if you pick the book comparison you impose a greater role of consciousness dictating reality than the movie. — Hanover

I see the main difference being that the page turner is the individual subject, so each person would turn the page at one's own pace. The movie doesn't really move by itself though, because there is a mechanism which moves it for everyone. The difference being that one is subjective, the other objective. But even the movie requires some sort of operator, and designer of the equipment, so some form of consciousness behind that system cannot be completely ruled out.

The more important question though, is whether such an analogy is adequate. Each of the two suggest determinism, reality is dictated by what is on the film or the pages. But if we are to allow for free will, then what is being rolled out by the projector, is possibilities which we can act on. This makes the matter extremely complex, because the objective mechanism would be providing us with possibilities, and the conscious mind could choose what actions it desires to actualize, and roll into the past. Of course one could solely observe, but without opting to take part ion the smorgasbord, you'd be rolled into the past yourself.

I think it's a combination of the two then. The movie machine is rolling out possible pages to turn, while the conscious mind is selecting which ones to turn.

Privilege of Experience:

This section discusses the importance of the subject, to philosophy.

Experimenting implies a relationship with the future, and so we create the conditions for an experiment just as we create a measuring device. — JuanZu

Correct, but that relationship between the past and the future is discontinuous. That's why "the prediction" is never a statement of necessity, and this is fundamental to experimentation.

Your example entails a contradiction, mine does not. — Relativist

Yours does entail contradiction, that's the point, just like my example. Please explain how you think the two differ, other than simply saying one is contradiction and the other not. To me there is no real difference What do you think it is about the one, which makes it contradictory, while the other is not?

My view is that each belief has a level of certainty. Believing an analytic truth, or the Pythagorian theory would be an absolute certainty — Relativist

How could the Pythagorean theorem constitute absolute certainty, when the hypotenuse of a square is irrational? That's like saying that the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter, pi, is an absolute certainty, when it's precise value cannot even be stated.

You continue to practise your contradictory ways. An instance where the reality of uncertainty has been proven, an irrational ratio, you claim is an example of absolute certainty.

I have been pursuing a similar line of thought ever since joining philosophy forums. You’ve basically discovered one of the key ideas of Platonism. Plato can never be explained simply or reduced to an ‘ism’, but Plato’s ‘ideas’ (eidos) are probably the most important single element in the philosophical tradition. Not for nothing did Alfred North Whitehead say that Western philosophy consists of a series of footnotes to Plato. — Wayfarer

And some people believe Plato is outdated. Shame on them!

Our intentional acts, as they are thrown into the possible and the non-given of the world, imply operationally a continuity between the measuring apparatus and that which is measured. — JuanZu

I don't dispute the continuity between the measuring device and the physical world being measured. Both are part of the given world. The discontinuity is between the non-given possibilities of intention, and the givenness of the sensed world.

Nor do I dispute that there is a "relationship" between the non-given and the given. However, I assert that the relationship is one of discontinuity. In fact, the description as two distinct things, given and non-given, with a relationship between the two, itself implies a discontinuity. If there was continuity, it would be one continuous thing.

There is no place here to talk about the past, since conscious and intentional acts occur in relation to a possible future. — JuanZu

How can you say this? The reality of what you refer to as "the measuring apparatus and that which is measured" is supported by their existence in the past, and sense observation of them, in the past. Without their past existence, they are only future possibilities, needing to be created in a physical presence. "Physical presence" is a product of past observation, having no reality without past observation.

Any "measurement" itself, as the "quantity" or "value" derived, exists in the realm of intentionality, the non-given. And, there is a discontinuity between this, the non-given, and the givenness of the apparatus and object to be measured

But use a book instead of a film for your example. The entirety of the book is happening at once. All the pages are there at all times, as opposed to the film that requires movement across the light. This would suggest that "happening" references conscious perception of the thing as opposed to anything to do with the thing. — Hanover

Are you suggesting that conscious beings actually turn the pages of time? or would it be just one conscious being who does this, God?

But this issue is just one factor in my overall IBE exercise, and I judge it insufficient to counter all the virtues of physicalism. — Relativist

I think your judgement is unreasonable then. Since you have "good reasons" to believe something which is contrary to the essential nature of a specific principle, it's irrational to maintain that principle. What did you think of my example? If I have good reasons to believe that some of the world's problems will never be solved, don't you think it's irrational for me to also believe that all the worlds problems will be resolved.

Here's what I think. I think that you really do not believe that there is good reasons to believe that some aspects of mind are not physical. You really believe in physicalism, but to avoid having to face issues like "the hard problem", you simply say 'well maybe the mind is not physical'. So you really do not believe that there are any good reason to accept that something is not physical, you just say that there is good reasons, in contradiction to what you truly believe, to avoid the problems which arise from what you truly believe.

The "good reasons" indeed give me reason to have some doubt about physicalism, but I have a pragmatic epistemology: practically nothing is certain, and there's always some reason to doubt one's beliefs — Relativist

That directly contradicts what you said before, when you rejected extreme skepticism. You said there is uncontroversial facts. Now, you take the position of extreme skepticism, claiming "there's always some reason to doubt one's beliefs". If there is reason to doubt all your beliefs, how can you say that any of them represent "uncontroversial facts"? If you judge something as uncontroversial fact, then you are judging that there is no reason to doubt it.

What do you take to be the difference between "always some reason to doubt one's belief", implying extreme skepticism, and "good reasons" to believe in something? i assume you do recognize a difference.

The "good reasons" are not established facts that falsify physicalism, as you seem to be implying. — Relativist

No, that's not at all what I am implying.

I am wondering why you think physicalism, which holds that all is physical, is the best ontology, when you also see good reason to believe that there is something nonphysical. Your beliefs seem self-contradictory to me.

Here's an example for comparison. You believe that all the problems of the world will be resolved. But you also see good reason to believe that some problems will never be solved. How can you hold these two beliefs at the same time?

We only know that something is a "proper" expression if it is consistent and coherent. The latter are the criteria for the former, not vice versa. If there are sveral consietnt and coherent usages of a term . then there would not be just one "proper" usage. — Janus

That is demonstrably incorrect Janus. And this is why you need to keep your categories clear, and ensure that you understand the broader category, being the defining feature of the narrower, as necessary for, therefore prior to, the narrower. In Aristotelian terms, the broader category, as the defining feature, is "within" the narrower. So for example, "animal" is within "human being" as a defining feature. This means that if it is a human being, it is necessarily an animal, but not vise versa because "human being" is not within "animal" as a defining feature. So "animal" is logically prior to "human being", meaning that "animal" can be understood independently from "human being", but "human being" cannot be understood independently from "animal". Animal is an essential, necessary, aspect of the concept human being while human being is contingent on animal.

In the case of your statement above, "proper" is the broader category from the narrower "logically coherent", or "logically consistent". "Proper" is a defining, essential feature, of "logically coherent". To be logically coherent, properness is necessary. So "proper" is logically prior to, as necessary for logical coherency. On the other hand, "proper", being the broader category, affords all different types of properness, which do not necessarily involve logical coherency. So we have many different types of social norms, mores and morals, rules and regulations, which describe different types of properness, and we can place "logical forms" as one type of properness. If we follow those specific rules of logical properness, we have logical coherency. So properness is clearly prior to logically coherent, as necessary for logical coherence. But logical coherence is not necessary for properness as there are other forms of properness. In relation to each other then, properness is independent from, but necessary for logically coherent, while logically coherent is contingent, as dependent on properness.

Therefore the exact contrary of what you say here is what is really the case. Since there are many forms of properness, a "proper expression" does not require logical consistency or coherency. It may be "proper" in the sense of following a moral principle, or some other form of correctness, properness being determined by that context. On the other hand, a statement must be proper in the sense of following logical rules, for it to be judged as logically consistent, or coherent. Therefore, contrary to what you say, we know that the statement is consistent and coherent, by judging it to be proper. That is, we refer to that specific type of properness, found in logical forms, and if the statement conforms to that type of properness, we judge it as consistent and coherent.

I disagree―I think that words can be synonymous within one context and not within another. — Janus

This makes no sense at all. It is impossible that two words appear in the very same context. the person would be using both words at the same time. Instead, the person must chose one word or the other. And if one word is chosen over the other because it has different meaning from the other, in a different context, then that difference carries into the new context, by the very fact that it was chosen for that reason.

I'm not a believer in properness, but rather in consistency and coherency. — Janus

Properness is a requirement for consistency and coherency. Ambiguity produces equivocation. So if you really believed in consistency and coherency, you'd believe in grammar as well.

If we have all the appropriate conceptual distinctions is it really all that important what words we use to frame them? — Janus

Yes, obviously it is all that important. If we don't use the words required to frame the conceptual distinctions, having the distinctions is pointless. You can say for example, 'I can easily distinguish between a rock and a human being', but if you just always refer to them both as "beings", what good does your ability to distinguish serve?

But since such entities are existents and to exist seems to be synonymous with 'to be' I see no inconsistency in referring to the moon as a being. — Janus

It's generally not productive to say that two words are synonymous. This dissolves the difference between them making the choice of using one or the other insignificant, despite the fact that there is at least nuanced differences between all words.

The most common difference between two words which might appear to be synonymous, is a difference of category. Sometimes one word will define the other, and actually signify a broader category, while the inverse cannot be the case. This allows that there are others in that broader category, making the words not synonymous. For example, "man" and "human being", might at first glance appear synonymous. However, we know that "human being" is actually the defining term for "man", as the broader category, because "man" properly refers to the male members of the category, and there are also female members.

Since "being" is most often defined by existing, and "existing" is usually defined by something further, we ought to consider that "existing" is the broader term. This would imply that all beings are existing, but not all existents are beings, because "existent" could include things which are not beings. Subtle distinctions allow us to keep our categories clear, and categories are conducive to deductive reasoning.

The "data" consists of all the uncontroversial facts of the world. — Relativist

If you are acquainted with skepticism, you'll understand that there is no such thing as uncontroversial facts of the world. So this proposal is a nonstarter.

This presupposes that something nonphysical exists. That is hypothesis, not an uncontroversial fact. There are metaphysical theories that assume this, but it's nevertheless a controversial assumption (there are clearly professional philosophers who deny this). That's why I stress that it is the uncontroversial facts of the world that need to be best accounted for. — Relativist

The point though, is that it answers your challenge, how we could possibly know something nonphysical when there is no empirical evidence for it.

In case you didn't understand, here's an example. Suppose piece of knowledge A is "2+2=4". For the sake of argument, this is taken to be something nonphysical. There is much empirical evidence for this, all we need to do is take two things and bring another two, and see that this makes four. Now, by applying nonphysical principles of logic, we can conclude piece of knowledge B, "2,000,000,000,000+2,000,000,000,000=4,000,000,000,000". At this point, it is not necessary that we put together 4,000,000,000,000 things, or even 2,000,000,000,000 things, we can know this thing B, without any empirical evidence of it.

So we can know B without any empirical evidence of B. If B is something nonphysical, that is an example of how we could know something which is nonphysical, when there is no empirical evidence for it. This is actually very common in mathematics, and in fact it is why applied math is so useful. With the application of mathematics, we can know many things without any empirical evidence of these things. Basically that is how successful prediction works. We know that things will occur, before there is any empirical evidence of the thing which will occur. You might prefer to call this magic, but it's really just the nonphysical in action. When we describe an event which has not yet occurred, isn't it accurate to describe this event as having no physical existence, i.e. nonphysical?

You should publish a paper that proves there are non-physical objects, so that the physicalist philosophers can learn the errors of their ways and start working on something productive. — Relativist

Actually there is a lot of such material already published, so no need for me to do that. The problem is that physicalists tend to be very closed minded, and don't bother studying, and learning, the things which disprove their physicalist beliefs.

Non-sequitur. Suppose we take as a premise that there exists something nonphysical. That does not imply that every existing is (at least) partly nonphysical. We only need to account for the things (and their properties) that we know (i.e. have strong reasons to believe) exist. — Relativist

It's not a non-sequitur. The point is that physicalism cannot account for anything in completion. To "account" for a thing requires a complete description. If you cannot describe every aspect of the thing, you have not accounted for the thing. Otherwise "accounting for" would be completely subjective, and an arbitrary description of whatever aspect of the thing which one feels like describing.

The simple fact is that the human sensory system is somewhat deficient. The senses miss some aspects of everything. This means that empirical principles cannot provide for us a complete understanding.

You are obviously unfamiliar with the concept of immanent universals. Example of this view: a 45 degree angle does not have some independent existence; rather, it exists in its instantiations. It reflects a specific physical relation between two objects. — Relativist

"45 degree angle" is a geometrical description. Yes, it is true that "It reflects a specific physical relation between two objects", but "reflects" does not mean "is". Therefore your supposed "account" provides no information about what "a 45 degree angle" actually is, just an account of what it reflects. Nice try Einstein.

It is not an ontological relation; it is semantics: the definition of "truth" expressed as a pseudo-relation between a statement and some aspect of reality. — Relativist

Yes, semantics is meaning, and meaning is nonphysical. Therefore, as I said, the relation is nonphysical.

You have demonstrated that your arrogance is rooted in ignorance - you seemed unaware that there are views that differ from your own, that respected philosophers hold to - not just "dimwits" like me. On the other hand, you've mentioned nothing that I wasn't already aware of. — Relativist

I am fully aware that there are views which differ from my own. Many of which are ridiculous. Most forms of physicalism fall into that category. I'm still waiting for you to produce something reasonable, in your claim of a view that differs from my own. Until you produce something reasonable, I'll continue to classify yours as ridiculous.

It seems obvious that all percipients have some kind of "first person perspective", so of course beings can be classed as living and non-living, sentient and non-sentient, and even sapient and non-sapient. None of that has been forgotten or is even controversial, though. — Janus

Sure, we can propose a division between living and not living. But, by what principle do you propose that both are properly called "beings"? I believe that is the issue. What does "being" mean to you, and is it proper to call the moon a being?





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Again, I have acknowleged that there are good reasons to believe there is something non-physical about mental activity. — Relativist

Then clearly it is illogical for you to believe that physicalism is the best ontology. You are logically inconsistent because you define physicalism as "the theory that everything that exists, is composed of physical things, and that they act and assemble entirely due to physical forces due to laws of nature". Then you say "there are good reasons to believe there is something non-physical about mental activity". Obviously, you have good reasons to reject physicalism, yet you do not. Why not just reject physicalism and get it over with? Why not move along to better ontologies which recognize the "good reasons to believe there is something non-physical about mental activity."

That’s close to what I mean. But it’s also an observation about the peculiarity of the modern sense of existence. David Loy, independent Buddhist scholar, says ‘ The main problem with our usual understanding of [secular culture] is that it is taken-for-granted, so we are not aware that it is a worldview. It is an ideology that pretends to be the everyday world we live in. Most of us assume that it is simply the way the world really is, once superstitious beliefs about it have been removed.’ — Wayfarer

i would characterize this "usual understanding" as the lazy way. It's "the lazy way" because superstitious beliefs, spirituality, and even the freedom of choice, all relate to the extremely difficult aspects of reality to understand. The common, or usual understanding, of reality, will remove these as either unreal or irrelevant. This means that the most difficult aspects of reality to understand, are simply ignored by the common or usual way of understanding, producing "the lazy way".

An intention is a disposition to behave in some general or specific way. It reflects some mediation between stimuli and response. — Relativist

This is not an accurate explanation of "intention". Intention produces completely novel things. Therefore it is not an inclination in a general or specific way, but an inclination toward a particular act. And, since the intentional act is toward something completely new, it cannot be said to be a mediation between stimuli and response. It produces a new thing. If it is to be described as a mediation, it is the mediation between the agent and the act. The agent being free to act in a multitude of ways, will act in a particular way, and intention is what produces the particular way which is produced, rather than another way.

Ontology is the general study of being, of what it means to be or to exist. Once the general characteristics shared by all beings are decided then what can be counted as a being can be
established. — Janus

I believe the issue which Wayfarer is trying to bring to our attention, is that there is a specific type of characteristic of being, which is only provided by the first person perspective, I, or myself. Since this is a real characteristic of the being which I call "myself" we need to determine whether it is a characteristic of all beings before we can make any conclusive judgement about "the general characteristics of all beings".

But "x is y" is not an explicit assertion of being as such, but an assertion about some being's characteristics. That it exists is already implicitly given. — Janus

That is a mistaken approach. The predication is made of a subject, and the subject need not exist. It might be imaginary, a possibility, or a misapprehension. Until we determine what it means to exist, we cannot take existence of anything for granted.

Why look back to the ancients when they did not have the immense benefit of our prodigious scientific knowledge and understanding? Ontological enquiry should be about what it is reasonable to think about being today, not two thousand years ago. — Janus

I believe, the relevant point is that many ancient philosophers practised introspection, and had very good understanding of the first person perspective of being. Scientific knowledge is based in empirical observation, and does not include that first person perspective, which is sometimes called "subjective".

To be clear, a being only has direct, immediate access to the internal composition of any being, through itself. Any other attempt to access the internal composition of a being is always mediated, either by dividing a being, to see its internal parts (in which case we lose the principle of unity), or through the use of some tool (in which case the tool contaminates the observation). The only way to truly observe the internal aspects of any being directly and immediately, is through self introspection, which is "subjective". Therefore subjective knowledge is a very valuable part of the knowledge of being.

Since it is necessary to consider this first person perspective, subjective knowledge, before making any conclusive judgements about "the general characteristics of all beings", we need to look beyond scientific knowledge and understanding. This is not to say that we ought to exclude scientific knowledge, but that it is necessary to consider other knowledge beyond scientific knowledge. In doing so we look for the best sources, and these tend to be those which have stood the test of time, ancient sources which have been tried and accepted in practise, and which remain relevant today.

Yes, with the qualifications I described. If you believe I'm wrong, then please disabuse me. How can we know anything about aspects of reality that cannot give us one bit of empirical evidence? — Relativist

Sorry Relativist, I cannot disabuse you because the abuse is self-inflicted. You'll have to take up that task yourself.

"Evidence" is a loaded term. What qualifies as "evidence of X" for me does not necessarily qualify as "evidence of X" for you. This is because the proposed piece of evidence, Y, will either be considered as evidence of X, or not considered as evidence of X, depending on the apprehended relation between X and Y.

Accordingly, the evidence, Y, may be empirical, and the thing which it is evidence of, X, may be nonphysical. Therefore there is no need to assume that there cannot be "one bit of empirical evidence" for the nonphysical. For those who understand the relation between the physical and nonphysical, every physical thing is evidence of the nonphysical. And that is why the theologists commonly claim that each material thing is evidence of the immaterial God. But if you do not understand that relation between the physical and the nonphysical, you will not apprehend the physical as evidence of the nonphysical.

Now, once you get beyond that mental block, which is preventing you from seeing the physical as evidence of the nonphysical, then you can start to understand the reality of many different nonphysical things. And, one nonphysical aspect, A, will serve as evidence for another nonphysical aspect B. Under these circumstances, we can know something about the nonphysical aspect, B, without one bit of empirical evidence for that knowledge. The empirical evidence is for A, and A is nonphysical, but it is evidence of B. The relation between A and B, which allows A to qualify as evidence of B is also nonphysical, being a logical relation. Therefore we can know about B without one bit of empirical evidence for this knowledge.

Physicalism can account for a good bit, but (as I've acknowledged) not everything. — Relativist

Well, unless it can account for every aspect of one thing, any one thing, absolutely, 100%, then it does not account for anything. It would only partially account for things. Since physicalism does not account for any one thing, in any absolute sense, then we can conclude that physicalism cannot account for anything. The best it can do is provide for a partial accounting. So, to have a complete account of anything, we need to include the nonphysical.

No, it doesn't entail infinite regress. — Relativist

Physicalist causation involves infinite regress, because each effect requires a previous cause. Then that cause requires a previous cause as well, ad infinitum. Therefore physicalism does not "account for causation", it simply takes causation for granted.

Seriously, it sounds like you don't understand physicalism. Law Realists suggest that laws are ontological relations between universals. Every instantiation of the relevant set of universals will necessarily instantiate the same effect. — Relativist

A "universal" is nonphysical, as are the relations between universals.

A truthmaker is something that exists in the world, to which a true statement corresponds. — Relativist

The relation between a statement and "the world" is nonphysical..

You COULD ask, instead of pontificating. — Relativist

I apologize for my attitude, but sometimes it's enjoyable to play the pontiff. You should try it sometime, you might enjoy it too, haha.

I was serious that I'm open hearing better theories, and particularly interested in understanding how you think we could actually learn something about the presumably nonphysical aspect of mind. Why have you not addressed this? — Relativist

I didn't answer, because I couldn't believe that someone could seriously be asking such a dimwitted question. Have you never tried introspection? Introspection is by definition, the examination of one's own mental and emotional processes. This is not a physical examination. Do you honestly believe that a person could learn absolutely nothing from such an examination?

Once again, I apologize for the attitude. However, I just cannot take you seriously when you ask questions like this. Then, you top it off with "I was serious that I'm open...". . That's the biggest piece of bullshit I've been hit with today. Your mind is closed tighter than a drum. You've locked yourself out, so that you cannot even get into your own mind. Oh my God! What can we do for you?

Dialectics and the Solidified:

I believe, "the solidified" is the opposite to groundless, or bottomless, what is solid, substantive. It appears to me like Adorno is saying that substance, solidity, is in some way equivalent to immediacy..

The confidence that the whole seamlessly emerges out of that
which is immediate, solid and simply primary, is idealistic appearance
[Schein]. To dialectics immediacy does not remain what it immediately
expresses. It becomes a moment instead of the grounds. At the opposite
pole, the same thing happens to the invariants of pure thought.

Against Relativism:

The substance of his argument against relativism is pretty much confined to one paragraph. It's a little hard for me to understand and interpret so I'll put up the whole paragraph here.

In truth divergent perspectives have their law in the structure of
the social process, as one of a preestablished whole. Through its
cognition they lose their non-committal aspect. An entrepreneur who
does not wish to be crushed by the competition must calculate so that
the unpaid part of the yield of alienated labor falls to him as a profit,
and must think that like for like – labor-power versus its cost of
reproduction – is thereby exchanged; it can just as stringently be
shown, however, why this objectively necessary consciousness is
objectively false. This dialectical relationship sublates its particular
moments in itself. The presumed social relativity of the intuitions obeys
the objective law of social production under private ownership of the
means of production. Bourgeois skepticism, which embodies relativism
as a doctrine, is narrow-minded.

Anyone want to take a crack at explaining that?

That's only part of it, but I'll try to be more precise. It is my (fallible) epistemic judgement that it is unknowable. The basis of my judgement is:

1) it is currently unknown to me.
2) If the question had been definitively answered, there would be no controversy about it among professional philosophers (& philosophers rarely settle anything).
3) I can conceive of no means to draw a definitive conclusion about it.

If you have the answer, and can make a compelling case for it, please share it.

If you have an idea about how a definitive conclusion could be drawn, please share it.

If you simply object to the strong wording I used, I'll acknowledge that I wasn't asserting it to be impossible that a definitive answer can be found. Rather- given the absence of any means to settle the matter at hand, nor any hint about how to proceed to do so, then for all practical purposes, it is impossible. Nevertheless, I will be forever in your debt if you can show that it is more than a bare possibility that the answer can be determined. — Relativist

It is you who has made the definitive judgement, that the nonphysical is unknowable.

Physicalism is still the most successful metaphysical system there is; successful because it depends on the fewest ad hoc assumptions, it primarily depends on things we know about the world through direct experience and through science, coupled to the most parsimonous ontology. It accounts for causation, universals, laws of nature, and a theory of truth. — Relativist

This is obviously false. Physicalism cannot explain the reality of the nonphysical, which we all experience daily, therefore it is clearly not the most successful metaphysical system.

It accounts for causation, universals, laws of nature, and a theory of truth. — Relativist

This is totally wrong. Physicalism does not account for causation. Physicalist causation leads to infinite regress, and that does not qualify as accounting for it. Physicalism does not account for any laws, as they are themselves, nonphysical. And, I have no idea what type of "truth" you'd be talking about here, if you are not talking about correspondence between Ideas (nonphysical), and physical reality. What kind of "theory of truth" does physicalism support?

The things that you claim physicalism can account for, it obviously cannot.

My statements were not a judgement of anyone else's rationality. But it would be irrational for me to drop physicalist metaphysics in total just because of the negative fact you repeatedly discuss: the mind is not entirely physical. I do not insist the mind is necessarily 100% physical (I'm not dogmatic), but whatever else it might be seems unknowable - and therefore the possibilities I've seen discussed simply seem like speculative guesses. You certainly don't have to agree with me, but if you believe my judgement (rooted in my backrgound beliefs) is misguided (irrational), then please identify my errors. If you don't wish to, then just agree to disagree and stop reacting negatively when I describe my point of view. — Relativist

Let's see. You admit that the mind is not 100% physical. Then you state that the nonphysical part "seems unknowable". But instead of trying to get beyond the way that things "seem" to be, and actually develop some knowledge about the nonphysical, you conclude that any such approach would merely be "guesses".

How does this validate physicalism? You blatantly admit that physicalism is wrong, by accepting the reality of the nonphysical. Then instead of progressing toward where this leads, making an effort to understand the nonphysical, you steadfastly cling to physicalism in a hypocritical way, as if the nonphysical, which you clearly recognize, yet fail to understand, is irrelevant.

Surely this identifies a significant error, and misguided, irrational judgement.

How does a mysterious/unknowable unphysical aspect of mind help us understand our nature or that of the universe?

Certainly, it opens up possibilities - but they are unanalyzable possibilities. — Relativist

Clearly, your problem is in the assumption that the unphysical is unknowable. What justifies this assumption? You recognize the reality of the unphysical, so by that very fact, you know it to some extent. How is it possible for you to recognize something then proceed to the conclusion that the thing you recognize is unknowable? That conclusion is completely unsupported. Even if you have tried, and failed in attempts to understand it, that would not produce the conclusion that the thing is unknowable.

I suggest that you are proceeding from a faulty assumption about what constitutes "knowable"...

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You should accept the premise of the possible world, since in our relationship with the world, it is shown as something that is not given once and for all (the future is not given). — JuanZu

That's exactly why there is discontinuity. The past is given, the future is not. As you say, "the world is not given once and for all", only the past has been given. Therefore the present constitutes a discontinuity of time.

Your post discusses only the future and the possibilities of the future. Now, what about the actuality of the past, and the discontinuity between the possibilities of the future and the actuality of the past?

Not in the world just like that, but in a possible world. — JuanZu

The horizon of the world does not include possible worlds. The opposite could be true, that possible worlds could include the world. But inversion is not permissible because this would allow that the contradictions of the different possible worlds would co-exist within the world.

And even if we assume the premise that the world is one of the multitude of possible worlds, then we need a completely distinct principle by which the actual world is distinguished. It is because of this that discontinuity must be assumed.

That is why possibility has a horizon of realisation, and the world is realisation, possible, actual or not. — JuanZu

See, even you have turned things around now, inverted your claims. You have now assigned the horizon to possibility, instead of to the world. You now refer to "the horizon of realization", which possibility has, and the world is the realization, instead of your former claim that possibility was within the horizon of the world.

So, as I explain above, we need a completely distinct principle which forms the "horizon of realisation" which possibility has. This principle must be distinct, forming a sort of boundary to possibility, and not being a possibility itself, and that's why we must conclude discontinuity. "The world" is on the other side of this boundary, as something completely distinct from possibility formed by the reality of the boundary. This is what allows for the reality of "truth".

The world is inscribed in the concept of possibility, which is why I say that it is its inherent horizon. — JuanZu

No, this is explicitly false. Within the concept of possibility there is nothing which distinguishes "the world". This is why possibility is often understood as possible worlds, plural. And to allow that all the possible worlds are truly possible, there cannot be one which is "the world", or else that would deny the possibility of those which contradict "the world". So the principles which determine "the world" must be external to the concept of possibility, as those principles which designate truth, usually according to correspondence with empirical fact.

What is actual is at once possible but neither necessary nor impossible. The world thus, a world of pure possibility, is in continuity with the consciousness of possibility. — JuanZu

This is the incoherency which results from your insistence that 'the world" is a continuous aspect of possibility. You have denied any meaning from "actual", by stating that its meaning is neither derived from "necessary", nor "impossible". Therefore you have no principle whereby you might propose an reality of "the world". Accordingly you propose that "the world" is pure possibility, and this implies that it is an infinity of possible worlds. So you have no principle whereby "pure possibility" is one united entity as "the world". It can only be conceived as an infinity of possible worlds. Therefore you have no such thing as "the world" and you have not closed the gap between the world and possibility.

If you look closely, its possibility is determined by the horizon of the world. How can something be possible if it does not mean possible IN THE WORLD? This shows that its nature of possibility has the world as its horizon. — JuanZu

Possibilities are determined by minds, and it is commonly recognized that possibilities are distinctly determinations which are NOT IN THE WORLD. The world consists exclusively of what is actual, or else we'd have all sorts of imaginary things existing IN THE WORLD. Minds determine what is possible, and these same minds recognize that these possibilities are NOT IN THE WORLD, they are simply determinations of the mind.

Whether the minds are correct or not in their determinations is another issue. Even if they are mistaken in there determinations of "possible", this does not mean that there is some other form of "possible" which is not determined by a mind and is IN THE WORLD. It just means that the mind which makes the mistaken determination of what is possible, misunderstands what is actual. A mistaken determination of what is possible simply reflects a mistaken understanding of what is actual.

This very break between what is actual and what is possible is the reason why we must assume discontinuity.

The fact that there are many possible ends does not change this continuity at all as long as it remains on the horizon of the world. — JuanZu

I have no idea how you are using "continuity" here. The possible ends, or goals are clearly not on the horizon of the world, as they are distinctly possible, and the horizon is the boundary of the actual world. Therefore the possible ends are outside the boundary or horizon of the world, and that is why there is a discontinuity.

There is a hidden dualism in your position. — JuanZu

Why do you say that the dualism is hidden? I don't think that free will and intention can be understood without dualism so the dualism is blatant. Those compatibilists who think that free will can be real within a reality which is defined by a monist determinism practise self-deception.

You think of a kind of purpose and intentional acts that have nothing to do with the world and its operational demands. — JuanZu

That's right, we commonly come up with goals, intentions which are completely unrealistic, fantastic and imaginary, having nothing to do with the world, and totally beyond the operational demands of the world.

As I have said, our intentional acts (including madness) have the world as their horizon. — JuanZu

How could you possibly justify this claim? Since the goals of intentional acts are always simply possible, and never something actual in the world, until the goal is realized, how could a goal have the actual world as it's horizon?

It appears to me that the exact opposite of what you say, is what is the case. It is impossible that an intentional act could have the world as its horizon, because "the world" refers to what actually is, and the intentional act is directed toward something apprehended which is lacking from the world. It is directed toward what is desired, the thing which the act is intended to brings about. Therefore the intentional act never has the world as its horizon.

If it is purely conceptual, then it is impossible to explain how, operationally, there is a correspondence between our concepts (language) and the world. — JuanZu

Isn't this the point which Kant tries to make, that such is reality? But I don't believe "impossible" is the necessary conclusion here. I believe that the relation can be understood through purpose, or the good. Plato investigated this route, but Kant did not. The proposed "correspondence" between our concepts and the world is a relation of usefulness, and this implies that we are intentional beings acting with purpose.

Your use of "operationally" indicates that we have a common ground here. However, it seems that I recognize intention as a discontinuity, whereas you attempt to sweep it under the rug, and claim "continuity" regardless of the break which intention produces between concepts and the world.

Thus, your idealistic and anti-realist position fails to account for the usefulness of concepts and ideas, and above all, it cannot justify why, when we deal with the world through ideas and concepts, we are even able to predict future events. Your position is anti-realist, while mine is pragmatic and operational. — JuanZu

"Usefulness" is relative to the end, what is desired, "the good", and your employment of this necessitates that we account for the reality of intention. Concepts are deemed to be useful if they facilitate in getting what we want. And if what we want is the capacity to predict the future, then the ability to predict the future determines the prevailing relation between concept and the world.

In the case of quantum physics, statistics and probability are employed toward predicting the future. However, the use of such does not provide an understanding of the events which are predicted. For example, from watching the sunrise every day, one could predict exactly when and where it will rise tomorrow. But this predictive capacity provides no real understanding of this event. The same person who makes this prediction, might also claim that a dragon carries the sun in its mouth, every night, around from sunset to sunrise, in an habitual way. That would be a case of misunderstanding enabled by prediction.

So "ability to predict" is just one of many possible goals which could be desired. It may be many ways consistent with, and productive toward, the goal of understanding, but it doesn't necessarily produce understanding because understanding requires more than just the ability to predict.

So when we deal with the quantum system, we are not simply inventing concepts and ideas that happen to be adequate by pure chance, but there is an operational continuity that allows us to deal accurately with different phenomena in the quantum world. — JuanZu

Clearly you have made an invalid conclusion. The fact that "we are not simply inventing concepts", and that we are also trying them, testing them for usefulness, does not lead to the conclusion of "an operational continuity". There is still the matter of the goal, or end by which they are tested for usefulness, and this end presents a discontinuity. It is a discontinuity because of the lack of necessity in relation to ends. There are many possible goals and not one can be said to provide the necessary relation required for continuity.

You might be right.

It could be we're at an impasse at this point? — Moliere

If you don't apprehend "ready-at-hand" to be teleological, when it explicitly relates to purpose, then we probably are at an impasse.

But, I'm fine to let that go, and continue, because it's not really related to the reading. However, the final paragraph in that section, in my mind, alludes to teleology. Heidegger on the other hand, I believe, appeals directly to teleology.

I had something similar with intense shyness from a young age. But it didn’t develop into something problematic and through considerable effort during my formative years I was able to overcome it. — Punshhh

OK this is me, fundamental intense shyness. It didn't develop into anything problematic because I managed to get around it with conscious tricks and defence mechanism to ward off the social anxiety. However, I feel that it still exists as a basic part of the inner me. Now, the conscious tricks by which I suppressed the basic shyness are really problematic if I want to reconcile the outer me with the inner me, because they seem to have produced an inauthentic outer me. The outer me is not representative of the true me. I can't erase the conscious tricks, and recoil back into shyness, because they are a very strong part of my character, and actually very necessary for coping with the social aspect of life which is unavoidable.

There is a sense that our weaknesses are actually our strengths, because we have unique experience and ability to live with these. So being able to see this as a strength rather than a failing helps one to face it, work through it and live with it. Even use it to our advantage. Also we have the opportunity to shape our lifestyles to make it easier to live without these issues normally arising. The thing with following a mystical life, it is entirely personal and doesn’t require, necessarily, dealing with the outside world, and you can shape your lifestyle to suit. — Punshhh

.I've already come to take this approach, that our weaknesses are actually strengths. My weakness is that I am a conflicted or divided person. If I look at this as actually a strength, then I see no reason to unify myself. That division within me has now become a strength.

Secondly and this is quite a neat trick, (this is the simplified version). You basically offer yourself up freely to any entity who is gooder than yourself. This necessarily requires one to be sufficiently good yourself that you would happily give yourself up someone equally, or more good than yourself. Once this level of goodness and conviction is reached, you can do a deal with yourself. You will offer access to yourself on the condition that your alter ego becomes at least as good as yourself. With the selling point being that, such a deal would enable progress and greater access. And of course your alter ego would naturally offer access to itself for yourself, because the result would only be gooder, or at least the same level of good. Then both party’s can become gooder and gooder in a partnership of mutual benefit.
I realise that this might be a non starter, but it works well for me. Although I do have a back up association with the deity Kali*, via an association and practice with a Guru and Ashram offering devotional worship to the goddess Kali**. — Punshhh

I like this, but it's going to take a goodly number of readings to fully realize the meaning. I've already accepted the alter ego as the real me, therefore the better me. But the conscious me needs some reciprocation from the alter ego, or else I'd be lost in the social environment. This is where the alter ego needs to become at least as good as the conscious self. So I'm thinking that there must be various aspects of myself to be judged, and the conscious me might actually be the better me with respect to some aspects, even though the alter ego is the more real me.

How can the conscious me request the alter ego to submit, when the logic by which the conscious me recognizes the reality of the alter ego is by assigning to it a higher reality? If I remove that higher reality, then the alter-ego becomes imaginary, a delusion in fact. And, if I assign some sort of equality to it, I lose the grounding for both, and my being in general becomes illusionary. I lose the principle by which i would determine better and worse. So I don't think this sort of proposal would be adequate for me.

I believe, that since I find this divisiveness within me to have become a strength, then attempts to unify might actually be a mistake. Perhaps I can use the divisiveness to encourage healthy competition between the two. Instead of one submitting to the goodness of the other, maybe they can always challenge each other. Then if one appears to be better than the other, the other will need to best up.

The question which comes to mind, do you believe that the alter ego can change itself? And if so, how?

"I believe that ontologically there is continuity between the device and what is measured. The same applies to the phenomena that occur in the device, like detections and interferences." — JuanZu

But this is clearly not the case. What is measured is a designated quantity, and this is an idea, concept, which is separate from the tool, and whatever interaction the tool is engaged in.

For example, you take a tape measure to measure the length of an object. "Length" is an idea, and any quantity determined, 1.3 metres for example, is purely conceptual, and separate from the tool, and the interaction which the tool is engaged in. The "thing measured" is always conceptual, a quantity which is attributed.

I believe it's the realist misunderstanding of measurement that I referred to with the marbles in the jar example which is misleading you. You seem to think that there is some sort of independent number, attached to the marbles in the jar, and this is what gets measured. But the quantity, which is what is measured, is purely ideal, it does not exist as part of the marbles in the jar. The "thing measured", is purely ideal, a quantity with specific parameters. The realist misconception, and common language leads us to believe that the marbles in the jar are being measured. In reality, "the quantity" of marbles in the jar is what is measured. And quantity is ideal.

This is the same principle as my rain gauge example. The tool engages the rain. However, the tool has been previously designed and calibrated prior to the interaction, then it is interpreted post interaction, and the measurement, or "what is measured" (amount of rain), is an idea, concept, a quantity, in the mind of the interpreter. The "amount of rain" is purely conceptual, and that is what is measured. One might say "the rain has been measured", but that is misleading because what has really been determined is a quantity.

It is necessary to uphold this discontinuity between device with interaction, and the quantity measured, in order to account for the real possibility of mistake. Those possible mistakes which I mentioned last post. If there was ontological continuity between the tool with its interaction, and the measurement, or quantity being measured, there would be no room for error in the measurement.

This rules out the idealistic interpretation of quantum physics that gave scientists powers they do not actually possess. Interpreting data, although an essential part of measurement, does not interact with the isolated quantum system. That is the job of the measuring device, which does interact with the quantum system. — JuanZu

Of course the device interacts with the system, it must be a part of the system in order for the operator to make the measurement. But what is measured is not the quantum system, just like the marbles are not measured, nor is the rain measured, despite the fact that we speak as if it is. What is measured is a quantity of energy, and that is purely conceptual, just like 1.3 metres is purely conceptual in the example above. And 20 marbles is purely conceptual, as is 35 millimetres of rain.

I am referring to measurement as the phenomenon that takes place in the measuring device. For example, interference, detection, etc. I am not referring to the intentional acts by which the scientist interprets what happens there. — JuanZu

All forms of measurement are intentional acts. What happens in a measuring device is only a small part of the measuring process, and is not itself an act of measurement without an interpretation. The rain gauge is filled when it rains, but this is not an act of measurement unless the someone reads it. To claim that the rain gauge measures without the act which reads the amount is to misunderstand what measurement is.

Furthermore, the act which creates the rain gauge is also an essential part of the measuring process. If the rain gauge is not properly calibrated, that will contribute to a mistaken measurement. Therefore design and construction of the device, as well as interpretation of the reading, are both essential aspects of the measurement act. An interpretation which is inconsistent with the intent of the design for example, will produce a false measurement. And, fault within either one or the other, the design and construction, or the interpretation, will also produce a mistaken measurement.

Therefore your talk of "measurement as the phenomenon that takes place in the measuring device", simply demonstrates a misunderstanding of what "measurement" actually is. Things occurring within measuring devices are meaningless without the principles described above.

I believe that ontologically there is a continuity between measurement and what is measured. — JuanZu

I don't think there is any truth to such a proposition of continuity. Measurement is always based in principles, and carried out as an intentional act. Therefore there is always a medium between what is measured and the measurement. This medium, of intentional acts carried out according to principles, necessitates that we understand a discontinuity between measurement and the thing measured.

There is a common realist assumption, which is false, which persistently interferes with the way that people interpret "measurement". We discussed this assumption in another thread, under the subject of marbles in a jar. The realist assumption is that there is a specific number of marbles in the jar, regardless of whether they have been counted. there is always a number (measurement) associated with those marbles regardless of whether they have been counted. This seems extremely intuitive as the basis for "truth" in the realist world view. The marbles are there, and they have a number, (a measurement) whether or not they have been counted.

However, this realist world view propagates a misunderstanding of what "measurement" really is. Measurement is the act by which a number is assigned to the marbles in the bottle. When we assume, in the realist way, that the marbles in the bottle already have a number assigned to them, without actually having to been counted, then we avoid the need for an act of measurement, to produce a measurement, by assuming that the thing has already been measured without an act of measurement. That is a false assumption.

Even if the entire experiment is artificial, there is still an ontological continuity that allows us to interact and 'create' the experiment. In that sense, the experiment is like a work of art, which may be artificial and created, but does not break with our natural world. — JuanZu

I do not see how you can truthfully portray this interaction as a continuity. The application of principles, through intentional activity (final cause) breaks any continuity assumed by Newton's laws. The continuity granted by Newton's laws does not accommodation for freely willed intentional causation.

In that sense, a work of art does break with the natural world, and the division between natural and artificial is warranted. The work of art cannot be explained by the laws of physics (Newton's deterministic laws of motion), because the will of the artist as cause cannot be thus accounted for.

One reaches an accommodation with one’s self, such that there is no question, or possibility of a breaking of the bond, or trust between you. — Punshhh

You see right through me. This is where I have an ingrown difficulty which will probably never be resolved. It seems that the inner me has some tendencies which the outer me has difficulty accommodating for, social anxiety for example. The outer me therefore, has created a bunch of defence mechanisms to fend off what the inner me is telling it. The outer me has set up ways to effectively block the influence of the inner me, because the outer me wants something different from what the inner me can provide for.

This can be understood in the context of moral training. The inner instinctual inclinations and desires are suppressed because we are taught that these tendencies are not good, and moral virtue requires suppression of them. In my case, what I describe above, the inner tendencies created uncomfortableness for the outer me, from an extremely young age, so the defence mechanisms referred to, which were required to fend off that uncomfortableness, are very strong. For the conscious me to be at all comfortable, from a very young age, the inner me had to be significantly blocked. In effect, the inner me is the enemy to the outer me, and creating a "bond" like you describe would require a complete annihilation of the outer me. The inverse, destruction of the inner me, is impossible. In other words, I cannot live with myself, and I believe that the separation must be maintained to ensure my existence.

The task is to unify this in a way that is true to yourself. — Punshhh

So the task appears unsurmountable to me. Contrariety runs deep, and "true to myself" would require truth of contradiction. The river cannot be crossed, and I believe an alternative, a compromise of sorts, is required. Can't I take another path, which allows for a disunited me, some form of divisive dualism maybe?

Anything which includes pi is fundamentally irrational, so I don't know why you would think it to be profound.

The instrument is not simply out there in the same sense as a rock or a tree: it is an artifact, created to register and communicate particular observables. — Wayfarer

The entire apparatus, experiment and all, is designed with very specific intentions. What we know as "quantum phenomena" is completely artificial forms. Since the forms are created, and we cannot distinguish the matter from the forms in these creations, we cannot make any real determination as to what, if any, aspect of these forms is natural.

The measuring instrument is the hand and the quantum phenomenon is the piece of wood. In that sense, the measuring device is 'natural' because it belongs to nature, because it is made of metal parts, etc. — JuanZu

You are proceeding in the wrong direction with this. The quantum phenomenon itself, as produced in the lab, and observed, is completely artificial. It's all created with specific experimental intentions. There is nothing "natural" about it, it is entirely artificial.

The Heidegger analogy is not helping me. The distinction between "ready" and "present" is teleological, the ready being useful, the present simply being there. Even if Heidegger says so, it's not true that ontology was focused on the present-at-hand, because the teleological goes back to Aristotle. Perhaps modern science focuses on the present-at-hand, but that's not ontology.

So i don't see that he negates the ontological perspective, he just indicates how the scientific perspective has strayed from the ontological, and he strives to bring "being" back to its origins. He may be negating the present-at-hand perspective, in preference for the ready-to-hand perspective, as the primary, and more real, thereby bringing truth to bear on the issue.

But in relation to "groundlessness", or "bottomlessness", I think that this is how the perspective which places priority on the "present-at-hand" is apprehended, as bottomless. The sort of objectivity, which scientific inquiry strives for, is produced by removing the teleological aspect. But this effectively removes 'the end", or goal, producing the bottomlessness. This, lack of a goal, is what the final paragraph of the section alludes to.

So basically, you come to an accommodation with yourself, once this is established and settled, with no conflict, or any issues. — Punshhh

So this, I think would be the most difficult part, the initial accommodation. That is where the logical trick I requested would be required. Maybe Wayfarer's example of the scarab beetle is such a trick. The trick is not really logical, but something which goes beyond logic, something which demonstrates the vast field of meaning which is not enveloped by logic. This is where significance commonly escapes conscious interpretation. Once I recognize that things which I don't even notice, and which would commonly completely escape my conscious perception, may in reality have great significance, then I might be in a position to accommodate my alter ego. The alter ego might be in a position to provide me with a sort of window into this vast realm which is a very real part of the world, completely surrounding me, but totally unnoticed by me. It appears like the only access I have to this very significant part of my environment, is through the means of an inner adventure.

I'd like to replace "alter ego" with the subconscious, or unconscious aspects of my being. What I find is that there seems to be a sort of self, which is almost totally distinct from my conscious self, and this other self which somehow lies in my unconscious, is evident in dreaming. This is my real being, as a living organism. I must pay respect to the fact that the unconscious self is the immediate environment to the conscious self, and the consciousness is a product of the unconscious self. Now I find my consciousness to be within this environment, the living being, and this environment completely escapes my observations. Furthermore, I find that the unconscious living being, allows the consciousness to practise self-deception, in thinking that it is the real self. It is not the real self, my consciousness is just a small bloom which has blossomed out of the unconscious activities of my being, and my ego deceives itself into thinking that the conscious mind is representative of the being itself.

Therefore, i must allow that when messages from the deep internal, the underneath, the alter ego, or subconscious, are being received into my conscious mind, these are coming from the real being which lies underneath. Whenever I block them out as being not-real, I feed the self-deception which supports my conscious mind in its illusion that it is the real self, and the real being. In reality, I think that maybe the underlying real being produces this consciousness, providing for that self-deception, so that the consciousness will do all sorts of different strange things, in a trial and error sort of way, supporting the being's quest for freedom. The underlying being, in disconnecting the consciousness from itself, and producing the conscious self-deceptive illusion of selfness, allows that the consciousness can act in an "objective" way, which is free from the influence of the true interest of the underlying being. Then the underlying being is the true observer of the conscious antics.

If bottomlessness is where we find truth then, no, we don't just disagree with an ontology: We're seeing something new through the act of negation rather than simply denying it as false. — Moliere

I just can't understand your use of "bottomlessness" Moliere. How is bottomlessness related to the act of negation?

However, the dichotomy between "developed countries" and "developing countries" seems quite accurate to me. — Astorre

I disagree with the vise versa part. X is defined as Western values and Western narrative, and then Y is defined as not-X. The vise versa doesn't work, because then you would be defining X as not-Y, and there would be nothing to establish the relationship to Western values. So there is no vise versa in the definitions, there is X which is Western values, and there is Y which is not-X. X cannot be defined as not-Y or you lose reference to Western values.

However, the dichotomy between "developed countries" and "developing countries" seems quite accurate to me. — Astorre

This is not the dichotomy you have defined though. You have defined Western and non-Western. The dichotomy of Western and developing, is very outdated. That is because many non-Western societies are fully developed, but simply do not have the same values as the Western. We ought not class developed non-Western together with developing non-Western, and name them all together as "developing countries. That would be a mistake.

So, you have proposed a dichotomy of "Western" and "non-Western". In no way does this equate to developed and developing. It appears like you want to include non-Western, yet developed countries, in your category of "developing". Or you just want ambiguity. Why?