My statements were not a judgement of anyone else's rationality. But it would be irrational for me to drop physicalist metaphysics in total just because of the negative fact you repeatedly discuss: the mind is not entirely physical. I do not insist the mind is necessarily 100% physical (I'm not dogmatic), but whatever else it might be seems unknowable - and therefore the possibilities I've seen discussed simply seem like speculative guesses. You certainly don't have to agree with me, but if you believe my judgement (rooted in my backrgound beliefs) is misguided (irrational), then please identify my errors. If you don't wish to, then just agree to disagree and stop reacting negatively when I describe my point of view. — Relativist

Let's see. You admit that the mind is not 100% physical. Then you state that the nonphysical part "seems unknowable". But instead of trying to get beyond the way that things "seem" to be, and actually develop some knowledge about the nonphysical, you conclude that any such approach would merely be "guesses".

How does this validate physicalism? You blatantly admit that physicalism is wrong, by accepting the reality of the nonphysical. Then instead of progressing toward where this leads, making an effort to understand the nonphysical, you steadfastly cling to physicalism in a hypocritical way, as if the nonphysical, which you clearly recognize, yet fail to understand, is irrelevant.

Surely this identifies a significant error, and misguided, irrational judgement.

How does a mysterious/unknowable unphysical aspect of mind help us understand our nature or that of the universe?

Certainly, it opens up possibilities - but they are unanalyzable possibilities. — Relativist

Clearly, your problem is in the assumption that the unphysical is unknowable. What justifies this assumption? You recognize the reality of the unphysical, so by that very fact, you know it to some extent. How is it possible for you to recognize something then proceed to the conclusion that the thing you recognize is unknowable? That conclusion is completely unsupported. Even if you have tried, and failed in attempts to understand it, that would not produce the conclusion that the thing is unknowable.

I suggest that you are proceeding from a faulty assumption about what constitutes "knowable"...

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You should accept the premise of the possible world, since in our relationship with the world, it is shown as something that is not given once and for all (the future is not given). — JuanZu

That's exactly why there is discontinuity. The past is given, the future is not. As you say, "the world is not given once and for all", only the past has been given. Therefore the present constitutes a discontinuity of time.

Your post discusses only the future and the possibilities of the future. Now, what about the actuality of the past, and the discontinuity between the possibilities of the future and the actuality of the past?

Not in the world just like that, but in a possible world. — JuanZu

The horizon of the world does not include possible worlds. The opposite could be true, that possible worlds could include the world. But inversion is not permissible because this would allow that the contradictions of the different possible worlds would co-exist within the world.

And even if we assume the premise that the world is one of the multitude of possible worlds, then we need a completely distinct principle by which the actual world is distinguished. It is because of this that discontinuity must be assumed.

That is why possibility has a horizon of realisation, and the world is realisation, possible, actual or not. — JuanZu

See, even you have turned things around now, inverted your claims. You have now assigned the horizon to possibility, instead of to the world. You now refer to "the horizon of realization", which possibility has, and the world is the realization, instead of your former claim that possibility was within the horizon of the world.

So, as I explain above, we need a completely distinct principle which forms the "horizon of realisation" which possibility has. This principle must be distinct, forming a sort of boundary to possibility, and not being a possibility itself, and that's why we must conclude discontinuity. "The world" is on the other side of this boundary, as something completely distinct from possibility formed by the reality of the boundary. This is what allows for the reality of "truth".

The world is inscribed in the concept of possibility, which is why I say that it is its inherent horizon. — JuanZu

No, this is explicitly false. Within the concept of possibility there is nothing which distinguishes "the world". This is why possibility is often understood as possible worlds, plural. And to allow that all the possible worlds are truly possible, there cannot be one which is "the world", or else that would deny the possibility of those which contradict "the world". So the principles which determine "the world" must be external to the concept of possibility, as those principles which designate truth, usually according to correspondence with empirical fact.

What is actual is at once possible but neither necessary nor impossible. The world thus, a world of pure possibility, is in continuity with the consciousness of possibility. — JuanZu

This is the incoherency which results from your insistence that 'the world" is a continuous aspect of possibility. You have denied any meaning from "actual", by stating that its meaning is neither derived from "necessary", nor "impossible". Therefore you have no principle whereby you might propose an reality of "the world". Accordingly you propose that "the world" is pure possibility, and this implies that it is an infinity of possible worlds. So you have no principle whereby "pure possibility" is one united entity as "the world". It can only be conceived as an infinity of possible worlds. Therefore you have no such thing as "the world" and you have not closed the gap between the world and possibility.

If you look closely, its possibility is determined by the horizon of the world. How can something be possible if it does not mean possible IN THE WORLD? This shows that its nature of possibility has the world as its horizon. — JuanZu

Possibilities are determined by minds, and it is commonly recognized that possibilities are distinctly determinations which are NOT IN THE WORLD. The world consists exclusively of what is actual, or else we'd have all sorts of imaginary things existing IN THE WORLD. Minds determine what is possible, and these same minds recognize that these possibilities are NOT IN THE WORLD, they are simply determinations of the mind.

Whether the minds are correct or not in their determinations is another issue. Even if they are mistaken in there determinations of "possible", this does not mean that there is some other form of "possible" which is not determined by a mind and is IN THE WORLD. It just means that the mind which makes the mistaken determination of what is possible, misunderstands what is actual. A mistaken determination of what is possible simply reflects a mistaken understanding of what is actual.

This very break between what is actual and what is possible is the reason why we must assume discontinuity.

The fact that there are many possible ends does not change this continuity at all as long as it remains on the horizon of the world. — JuanZu

I have no idea how you are using "continuity" here. The possible ends, or goals are clearly not on the horizon of the world, as they are distinctly possible, and the horizon is the boundary of the actual world. Therefore the possible ends are outside the boundary or horizon of the world, and that is why there is a discontinuity.

There is a hidden dualism in your position. — JuanZu

Why do you say that the dualism is hidden? I don't think that free will and intention can be understood without dualism so the dualism is blatant. Those compatibilists who think that free will can be real within a reality which is defined by a monist determinism practise self-deception.

You think of a kind of purpose and intentional acts that have nothing to do with the world and its operational demands. — JuanZu

That's right, we commonly come up with goals, intentions which are completely unrealistic, fantastic and imaginary, having nothing to do with the world, and totally beyond the operational demands of the world.

As I have said, our intentional acts (including madness) have the world as their horizon. — JuanZu

How could you possibly justify this claim? Since the goals of intentional acts are always simply possible, and never something actual in the world, until the goal is realized, how could a goal have the actual world as it's horizon?

It appears to me that the exact opposite of what you say, is what is the case. It is impossible that an intentional act could have the world as its horizon, because "the world" refers to what actually is, and the intentional act is directed toward something apprehended which is lacking from the world. It is directed toward what is desired, the thing which the act is intended to brings about. Therefore the intentional act never has the world as its horizon.

If it is purely conceptual, then it is impossible to explain how, operationally, there is a correspondence between our concepts (language) and the world. — JuanZu

Isn't this the point which Kant tries to make, that such is reality? But I don't believe "impossible" is the necessary conclusion here. I believe that the relation can be understood through purpose, or the good. Plato investigated this route, but Kant did not. The proposed "correspondence" between our concepts and the world is a relation of usefulness, and this implies that we are intentional beings acting with purpose.

Your use of "operationally" indicates that we have a common ground here. However, it seems that I recognize intention as a discontinuity, whereas you attempt to sweep it under the rug, and claim "continuity" regardless of the break which intention produces between concepts and the world.

Thus, your idealistic and anti-realist position fails to account for the usefulness of concepts and ideas, and above all, it cannot justify why, when we deal with the world through ideas and concepts, we are even able to predict future events. Your position is anti-realist, while mine is pragmatic and operational. — JuanZu

"Usefulness" is relative to the end, what is desired, "the good", and your employment of this necessitates that we account for the reality of intention. Concepts are deemed to be useful if they facilitate in getting what we want. And if what we want is the capacity to predict the future, then the ability to predict the future determines the prevailing relation between concept and the world.

In the case of quantum physics, statistics and probability are employed toward predicting the future. However, the use of such does not provide an understanding of the events which are predicted. For example, from watching the sunrise every day, one could predict exactly when and where it will rise tomorrow. But this predictive capacity provides no real understanding of this event. The same person who makes this prediction, might also claim that a dragon carries the sun in its mouth, every night, around from sunset to sunrise, in an habitual way. That would be a case of misunderstanding enabled by prediction.

So "ability to predict" is just one of many possible goals which could be desired. It may be many ways consistent with, and productive toward, the goal of understanding, but it doesn't necessarily produce understanding because understanding requires more than just the ability to predict.

So when we deal with the quantum system, we are not simply inventing concepts and ideas that happen to be adequate by pure chance, but there is an operational continuity that allows us to deal accurately with different phenomena in the quantum world. — JuanZu

Clearly you have made an invalid conclusion. The fact that "we are not simply inventing concepts", and that we are also trying them, testing them for usefulness, does not lead to the conclusion of "an operational continuity". There is still the matter of the goal, or end by which they are tested for usefulness, and this end presents a discontinuity. It is a discontinuity because of the lack of necessity in relation to ends. There are many possible goals and not one can be said to provide the necessary relation required for continuity.

You might be right.

It could be we're at an impasse at this point? — Moliere

If you don't apprehend "ready-at-hand" to be teleological, when it explicitly relates to purpose, then we probably are at an impasse.

But, I'm fine to let that go, and continue, because it's not really related to the reading. However, the final paragraph in that section, in my mind, alludes to teleology. Heidegger on the other hand, I believe, appeals directly to teleology.

I had something similar with intense shyness from a young age. But it didn’t develop into something problematic and through considerable effort during my formative years I was able to overcome it. — Punshhh

OK this is me, fundamental intense shyness. It didn't develop into anything problematic because I managed to get around it with conscious tricks and defence mechanism to ward off the social anxiety. However, I feel that it still exists as a basic part of the inner me. Now, the conscious tricks by which I suppressed the basic shyness are really problematic if I want to reconcile the outer me with the inner me, because they seem to have produced an inauthentic outer me. The outer me is not representative of the true me. I can't erase the conscious tricks, and recoil back into shyness, because they are a very strong part of my character, and actually very necessary for coping with the social aspect of life which is unavoidable.

There is a sense that our weaknesses are actually our strengths, because we have unique experience and ability to live with these. So being able to see this as a strength rather than a failing helps one to face it, work through it and live with it. Even use it to our advantage. Also we have the opportunity to shape our lifestyles to make it easier to live without these issues normally arising. The thing with following a mystical life, it is entirely personal and doesn’t require, necessarily, dealing with the outside world, and you can shape your lifestyle to suit. — Punshhh

.I've already come to take this approach, that our weaknesses are actually strengths. My weakness is that I am a conflicted or divided person. If I look at this as actually a strength, then I see no reason to unify myself. That division within me has now become a strength.

Secondly and this is quite a neat trick, (this is the simplified version). You basically offer yourself up freely to any entity who is gooder than yourself. This necessarily requires one to be sufficiently good yourself that you would happily give yourself up someone equally, or more good than yourself. Once this level of goodness and conviction is reached, you can do a deal with yourself. You will offer access to yourself on the condition that your alter ego becomes at least as good as yourself. With the selling point being that, such a deal would enable progress and greater access. And of course your alter ego would naturally offer access to itself for yourself, because the result would only be gooder, or at least the same level of good. Then both party’s can become gooder and gooder in a partnership of mutual benefit.
I realise that this might be a non starter, but it works well for me. Although I do have a back up association with the deity Kali*, via an association and practice with a Guru and Ashram offering devotional worship to the goddess Kali**. — Punshhh

I like this, but it's going to take a goodly number of readings to fully realize the meaning. I've already accepted the alter ego as the real me, therefore the better me. But the conscious me needs some reciprocation from the alter ego, or else I'd be lost in the social environment. This is where the alter ego needs to become at least as good as the conscious self. So I'm thinking that there must be various aspects of myself to be judged, and the conscious me might actually be the better me with respect to some aspects, even though the alter ego is the more real me.

How can the conscious me request the alter ego to submit, when the logic by which the conscious me recognizes the reality of the alter ego is by assigning to it a higher reality? If I remove that higher reality, then the alter-ego becomes imaginary, a delusion in fact. And, if I assign some sort of equality to it, I lose the grounding for both, and my being in general becomes illusionary. I lose the principle by which i would determine better and worse. So I don't think this sort of proposal would be adequate for me.

I believe, that since I find this divisiveness within me to have become a strength, then attempts to unify might actually be a mistake. Perhaps I can use the divisiveness to encourage healthy competition between the two. Instead of one submitting to the goodness of the other, maybe they can always challenge each other. Then if one appears to be better than the other, the other will need to best up.

The question which comes to mind, do you believe that the alter ego can change itself? And if so, how?

"I believe that ontologically there is continuity between the device and what is measured. The same applies to the phenomena that occur in the device, like detections and interferences." — JuanZu

But this is clearly not the case. What is measured is a designated quantity, and this is an idea, concept, which is separate from the tool, and whatever interaction the tool is engaged in.

For example, you take a tape measure to measure the length of an object. "Length" is an idea, and any quantity determined, 1.3 metres for example, is purely conceptual, and separate from the tool, and the interaction which the tool is engaged in. The "thing measured" is always conceptual, a quantity which is attributed.

I believe it's the realist misunderstanding of measurement that I referred to with the marbles in the jar example which is misleading you. You seem to think that there is some sort of independent number, attached to the marbles in the jar, and this is what gets measured. But the quantity, which is what is measured, is purely ideal, it does not exist as part of the marbles in the jar. The "thing measured", is purely ideal, a quantity with specific parameters. The realist misconception, and common language leads us to believe that the marbles in the jar are being measured. In reality, "the quantity" of marbles in the jar is what is measured. And quantity is ideal.

This is the same principle as my rain gauge example. The tool engages the rain. However, the tool has been previously designed and calibrated prior to the interaction, then it is interpreted post interaction, and the measurement, or "what is measured" (amount of rain), is an idea, concept, a quantity, in the mind of the interpreter. The "amount of rain" is purely conceptual, and that is what is measured. One might say "the rain has been measured", but that is misleading because what has really been determined is a quantity.

It is necessary to uphold this discontinuity between device with interaction, and the quantity measured, in order to account for the real possibility of mistake. Those possible mistakes which I mentioned last post. If there was ontological continuity between the tool with its interaction, and the measurement, or quantity being measured, there would be no room for error in the measurement.

This rules out the idealistic interpretation of quantum physics that gave scientists powers they do not actually possess. Interpreting data, although an essential part of measurement, does not interact with the isolated quantum system. That is the job of the measuring device, which does interact with the quantum system. — JuanZu

Of course the device interacts with the system, it must be a part of the system in order for the operator to make the measurement. But what is measured is not the quantum system, just like the marbles are not measured, nor is the rain measured, despite the fact that we speak as if it is. What is measured is a quantity of energy, and that is purely conceptual, just like 1.3 metres is purely conceptual in the example above. And 20 marbles is purely conceptual, as is 35 millimetres of rain.

I am referring to measurement as the phenomenon that takes place in the measuring device. For example, interference, detection, etc. I am not referring to the intentional acts by which the scientist interprets what happens there. — JuanZu

All forms of measurement are intentional acts. What happens in a measuring device is only a small part of the measuring process, and is not itself an act of measurement without an interpretation. The rain gauge is filled when it rains, but this is not an act of measurement unless the someone reads it. To claim that the rain gauge measures without the act which reads the amount is to misunderstand what measurement is.

Furthermore, the act which creates the rain gauge is also an essential part of the measuring process. If the rain gauge is not properly calibrated, that will contribute to a mistaken measurement. Therefore design and construction of the device, as well as interpretation of the reading, are both essential aspects of the measurement act. An interpretation which is inconsistent with the intent of the design for example, will produce a false measurement. And, fault within either one or the other, the design and construction, or the interpretation, will also produce a mistaken measurement.

Therefore your talk of "measurement as the phenomenon that takes place in the measuring device", simply demonstrates a misunderstanding of what "measurement" actually is. Things occurring within measuring devices are meaningless without the principles described above.

I believe that ontologically there is a continuity between measurement and what is measured. — JuanZu

I don't think there is any truth to such a proposition of continuity. Measurement is always based in principles, and carried out as an intentional act. Therefore there is always a medium between what is measured and the measurement. This medium, of intentional acts carried out according to principles, necessitates that we understand a discontinuity between measurement and the thing measured.

There is a common realist assumption, which is false, which persistently interferes with the way that people interpret "measurement". We discussed this assumption in another thread, under the subject of marbles in a jar. The realist assumption is that there is a specific number of marbles in the jar, regardless of whether they have been counted. there is always a number (measurement) associated with those marbles regardless of whether they have been counted. This seems extremely intuitive as the basis for "truth" in the realist world view. The marbles are there, and they have a number, (a measurement) whether or not they have been counted.

However, this realist world view propagates a misunderstanding of what "measurement" really is. Measurement is the act by which a number is assigned to the marbles in the bottle. When we assume, in the realist way, that the marbles in the bottle already have a number assigned to them, without actually having to been counted, then we avoid the need for an act of measurement, to produce a measurement, by assuming that the thing has already been measured without an act of measurement. That is a false assumption.

Even if the entire experiment is artificial, there is still an ontological continuity that allows us to interact and 'create' the experiment. In that sense, the experiment is like a work of art, which may be artificial and created, but does not break with our natural world. — JuanZu

I do not see how you can truthfully portray this interaction as a continuity. The application of principles, through intentional activity (final cause) breaks any continuity assumed by Newton's laws. The continuity granted by Newton's laws does not accommodation for freely willed intentional causation.

In that sense, a work of art does break with the natural world, and the division between natural and artificial is warranted. The work of art cannot be explained by the laws of physics (Newton's deterministic laws of motion), because the will of the artist as cause cannot be thus accounted for.

One reaches an accommodation with one’s self, such that there is no question, or possibility of a breaking of the bond, or trust between you. — Punshhh

You see right through me. This is where I have an ingrown difficulty which will probably never be resolved. It seems that the inner me has some tendencies which the outer me has difficulty accommodating for, social anxiety for example. The outer me therefore, has created a bunch of defence mechanisms to fend off what the inner me is telling it. The outer me has set up ways to effectively block the influence of the inner me, because the outer me wants something different from what the inner me can provide for.

This can be understood in the context of moral training. The inner instinctual inclinations and desires are suppressed because we are taught that these tendencies are not good, and moral virtue requires suppression of them. In my case, what I describe above, the inner tendencies created uncomfortableness for the outer me, from an extremely young age, so the defence mechanisms referred to, which were required to fend off that uncomfortableness, are very strong. For the conscious me to be at all comfortable, from a very young age, the inner me had to be significantly blocked. In effect, the inner me is the enemy to the outer me, and creating a "bond" like you describe would require a complete annihilation of the outer me. The inverse, destruction of the inner me, is impossible. In other words, I cannot live with myself, and I believe that the separation must be maintained to ensure my existence.

The task is to unify this in a way that is true to yourself. — Punshhh

So the task appears unsurmountable to me. Contrariety runs deep, and "true to myself" would require truth of contradiction. The river cannot be crossed, and I believe an alternative, a compromise of sorts, is required. Can't I take another path, which allows for a disunited me, some form of divisive dualism maybe?

Anything which includes pi is fundamentally irrational, so I don't know why you would think it to be profound.

The instrument is not simply out there in the same sense as a rock or a tree: it is an artifact, created to register and communicate particular observables. — Wayfarer

The entire apparatus, experiment and all, is designed with very specific intentions. What we know as "quantum phenomena" is completely artificial forms. Since the forms are created, and we cannot distinguish the matter from the forms in these creations, we cannot make any real determination as to what, if any, aspect of these forms is natural.

The measuring instrument is the hand and the quantum phenomenon is the piece of wood. In that sense, the measuring device is 'natural' because it belongs to nature, because it is made of metal parts, etc. — JuanZu

You are proceeding in the wrong direction with this. The quantum phenomenon itself, as produced in the lab, and observed, is completely artificial. It's all created with specific experimental intentions. There is nothing "natural" about it, it is entirely artificial.

The Heidegger analogy is not helping me. The distinction between "ready" and "present" is teleological, the ready being useful, the present simply being there. Even if Heidegger says so, it's not true that ontology was focused on the present-at-hand, because the teleological goes back to Aristotle. Perhaps modern science focuses on the present-at-hand, but that's not ontology.

So i don't see that he negates the ontological perspective, he just indicates how the scientific perspective has strayed from the ontological, and he strives to bring "being" back to its origins. He may be negating the present-at-hand perspective, in preference for the ready-to-hand perspective, as the primary, and more real, thereby bringing truth to bear on the issue.

But in relation to "groundlessness", or "bottomlessness", I think that this is how the perspective which places priority on the "present-at-hand" is apprehended, as bottomless. The sort of objectivity, which scientific inquiry strives for, is produced by removing the teleological aspect. But this effectively removes 'the end", or goal, producing the bottomlessness. This, lack of a goal, is what the final paragraph of the section alludes to.

So basically, you come to an accommodation with yourself, once this is established and settled, with no conflict, or any issues. — Punshhh

So this, I think would be the most difficult part, the initial accommodation. That is where the logical trick I requested would be required. Maybe Wayfarer's example of the scarab beetle is such a trick. The trick is not really logical, but something which goes beyond logic, something which demonstrates the vast field of meaning which is not enveloped by logic. This is where significance commonly escapes conscious interpretation. Once I recognize that things which I don't even notice, and which would commonly completely escape my conscious perception, may in reality have great significance, then I might be in a position to accommodate my alter ego. The alter ego might be in a position to provide me with a sort of window into this vast realm which is a very real part of the world, completely surrounding me, but totally unnoticed by me. It appears like the only access I have to this very significant part of my environment, is through the means of an inner adventure.

I'd like to replace "alter ego" with the subconscious, or unconscious aspects of my being. What I find is that there seems to be a sort of self, which is almost totally distinct from my conscious self, and this other self which somehow lies in my unconscious, is evident in dreaming. This is my real being, as a living organism. I must pay respect to the fact that the unconscious self is the immediate environment to the conscious self, and the consciousness is a product of the unconscious self. Now I find my consciousness to be within this environment, the living being, and this environment completely escapes my observations. Furthermore, I find that the unconscious living being, allows the consciousness to practise self-deception, in thinking that it is the real self. It is not the real self, my consciousness is just a small bloom which has blossomed out of the unconscious activities of my being, and my ego deceives itself into thinking that the conscious mind is representative of the being itself.

Therefore, i must allow that when messages from the deep internal, the underneath, the alter ego, or subconscious, are being received into my conscious mind, these are coming from the real being which lies underneath. Whenever I block them out as being not-real, I feed the self-deception which supports my conscious mind in its illusion that it is the real self, and the real being. In reality, I think that maybe the underlying real being produces this consciousness, providing for that self-deception, so that the consciousness will do all sorts of different strange things, in a trial and error sort of way, supporting the being's quest for freedom. The underlying being, in disconnecting the consciousness from itself, and producing the conscious self-deceptive illusion of selfness, allows that the consciousness can act in an "objective" way, which is free from the influence of the true interest of the underlying being. Then the underlying being is the true observer of the conscious antics.

If bottomlessness is where we find truth then, no, we don't just disagree with an ontology: We're seeing something new through the act of negation rather than simply denying it as false. — Moliere

I just can't understand your use of "bottomlessness" Moliere. How is bottomlessness related to the act of negation?

However, the dichotomy between "developed countries" and "developing countries" seems quite accurate to me. — Astorre

I disagree with the vise versa part. X is defined as Western values and Western narrative, and then Y is defined as not-X. The vise versa doesn't work, because then you would be defining X as not-Y, and there would be nothing to establish the relationship to Western values. So there is no vise versa in the definitions, there is X which is Western values, and there is Y which is not-X. X cannot be defined as not-Y or you lose reference to Western values.

However, the dichotomy between "developed countries" and "developing countries" seems quite accurate to me. — Astorre

This is not the dichotomy you have defined though. You have defined Western and non-Western. The dichotomy of Western and developing, is very outdated. That is because many non-Western societies are fully developed, but simply do not have the same values as the Western. We ought not class developed non-Western together with developing non-Western, and name them all together as "developing countries. That would be a mistake.

So, you have proposed a dichotomy of "Western" and "non-Western". In no way does this equate to developed and developing. It appears like you want to include non-Western, yet developed countries, in your category of "developing". Or you just want ambiguity. Why?

So let's say that we do have a radio receiver of that sort, and it's common to us all but the majority of people, (the normal people), condition themselves to tune it out, or maybe even turn it right off. I don't consider myself to be normal, so I am cognizant of that signal as I explained, but I also understand that I've spent most my life under the 'tune it out' program of conditioning. I didn't succeed in completely tuning it out, or turning it off, because it was too strong for my conscious mind to overpower. Now it really confuses me, even causing unnecessary stress and anxiety, because I don't know how to interpret or translate the meaning, having never taken the time to learn the language, yet it is so strong and seems to tell me that I ought to try.

If I want to try and understand it, what do you think would be my best approach? Should I first attempt to determine where it's coming from, and then after forming that understanding I would have an approach toward trying to understand what it is saying? Or, do you think that I should first learn to understand what it is saying, then, where it is coming from might sort of reveal itself naturally?

First thing first though, how can I know that it is really being received, and not just created by me as a form of self-deception? That's what I'm really afraid of, that it's a sort of self-perpetuating anxiety, like I am creating a problem for myself, and actively propagating the problem. The 'tune it out conditioning' tells me it is self-created deception and that's why it must be shut off. How can I convince myself of its reality, so that I can peacefully live with it, and so it resolves that anxiety of self-deception, rather than creating it? Is there a logical trick, like even if it is self-created, it must have a cause?

Contemporaries often use the term "global south" in the context of alternative associations like BRICS or G77. Although my understanding of the concept of "global south" is broader - it is "Developing countries", "periphery", "Third world" — Astorre

I can't understand this form of classification. It classifies a bunch of dissimilar and unrelated things together in the same classification, as not-X. So you start with "Western values and narratives", then produce a category of exclusion, "non-Western", and place all others into that category. But there is no principles by which the "others" ought to be placed in the same category, except that you want to exclude them from being in the category of "Western". How is that an acceptable form of classification? What could be the intent of such a form of classification?

For such a being, the experience of such an unusual event is very rare, perhaps once in the lifetime, or only for 1 in 10 people in their lifetime. What I’m saying, is that infact it happens more than we know, even regularly, but we either don’t see it, couldn’t appreciate the relevance, are conditioned to screen it out etc. essentially we are blind to it, except in certain very narrow circumstances determined by our life, heritage and conditioning.
For the mystic, or seer, this is fertile ground for exploration and contemplation. — Punshhh

I opt for "regularly". I tend to think that this sort of thing happens all the time, and it is a significant aspect of existence, but since it doesn't make sense to our deterministic way of understanding things, we have been conditioned to tune it out.

Here's an analogy, or another example of the "tuning out". There is talk and speculation about people who experience an "inner voice". Many people do not experience the inner voice. Those who do experience it, generally condition themselves to believe that the inner voice is simply a personal dialogue, talking to oneself. The self-conditioning occurs at such a young age we do not even remember it. It could be very confusing to think that I am talking to someone other than myself, internally, so I carry on a self-dialogue which effectively blocks out, tunes out, any external source from my inner voice. Talking to myself, internally allows me to block out any internal voice which is not my own, convincing me that the internal voice is simply my own. Any external sourced voice, in the internal, is pushed under the rug, and drowned out, therefore not noticed.

However, some do not succumb to the conditioning, and end up believing that the voice of another is speaking to them internally. These people are designated as psychologically challenged. That designation doesn't make the phenomenon go away, or make it any less real. So this feature, of having someone who is somehow not you (external in that sense), speaking to you internally, is very real, despite the fact that normal people shout at themselves internally to drown out or tune out, the "not you" aspect, and think of this as thinking.

Have you ever felt that? — Moliere

I'm having a hard time, felt what? The moment I saw the absurd, or the moment I saw multiplicity? Or is multiplicity absurd for you? I don't know if I've ever really felt either one.

However, hitting bottomlessness is absurd to me. Therefore, I suppose I can conclude that I have felt that moment of seeing the absurd, as "hitting bottomlessness".

However, theory (ontology) must be sought out again after ontology hits bottomlessness. — Moliere

But how does "ontology hits bottomlessness" make any sense? Suppose ontology progresses indefinitely, as "bottomlessness" implies. When would it "hit" bottomlessness; after two years, a hundred years, a thousand years, a million years? It doesn't make any sense to say that it has hit, or it hits, bottomlessness.

We can judge a specific ontology as groundless, or bottomless, if we think that the claims of that ontology are ungrounded, or unsound, but that would just mean that we disagree with the ontology. Then bottomless, or ungrounded, is just an avoidance. Instead of addressing what we disagree with, we simply dismiss the ontology as groundless or bottomless. So the charge of bottomless, or groundless, is just a nothing charge, useless and meaningless, while those who make the charge are acting out bottomlessness..

This is what he says about infinity. Philosophers talk about infinity, without recognizing that they are really acting it out.

The metacritical turn against prima philosophia [Latin: originary
philosophy] is at the same time one against the finitude of a philosophy,
which blusters about infinity and pays no heed to it.

Further, this is where "play" enters philosophy:

Against the total domination of method, philosophy retains,
correctively, the moment of play, which the tradition of its
scientifization would like to drive out of it. Even for Hegel this was a
sore point, he reproached “…types and distinctions, which are
determined by pure accident and by play, not by reason.”6 The non
naïve thought knows how little it encompasses what is thought, and yet
must always hold forth as if it had such completely in hand. It thereby
approximates clowning. It may not deny its traces, not the least because
they alone open up the hope of that which is forbidden to it. Philosophy
is the most serious of all things, but not all that serious, after all. What
aims for what is not already a priori and what it would have no statutory
power over, belongs, according to its own concept, simultaneously to a
sphere of the unconstrained, which was rendered taboo by the
conceptual essence. The concept cannot otherwise represent the thing
which it repressed, namely mimesis, than by appropriating something
of this latter in its own mode of conduct, without losing itself to it. — p25-26

Despite being the most serious thing, the pretense of truth in ontology, is just clowning.

here’s a growing belief that the prosperity of the West has come at the expense of the Global South, and that the status quo must change. — Astorre

What if the dictatorships of the global south are what the inhabitants of the global south want? — Astorre

What does "global south" mean in your usage. Can you define this?

For example; I have come to realise that extremely inprobable events and coincidences happen all the time. — Punshhh

I strongly agree. That's why there is sayings like "truth is stranger than fiction". I believe it has something to do with the variety of possibility. Possibility extends through such a vast array of features of a vast array of activities, far beyond the capacity of the most imaginative minds. That is why superstition extends to such a broad array of habitual activities. You'll find that people who work in a career where luck and chance are significant factors (such as sports games) pay very strong attention to the most minute factors of daily life. They are said to be superstitious. Very small things, which are not even noticeable to most people can end up having a large effect on what happens. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect

Secondly; for this event to happen, there was a collective action between all the people involved. So in a sense the crowd, including myself and the small chap, were acting as one cohesive organism. Which might suggest that we act as one organism more often than we might expect.

Thirdly; there was some kind of calling, need, requirement for the two of us to see each other and have our interaction***. I have had numerous encounters with people which involved exchanging of glances, as intense, or meaningful as this, indeed even more so. So have come to view such interactions as a window to the soul, or something like that. — Punshhh

These two features involve a non-conscious relation between individuals, which will act to amplify the minute factors of possibility, through multiplication.

Here's an analogy. Consider that a living body is composed of a multitude of small parts, individual cells, or even the smaller parts, parts of a cell and the parts that act between cells. Each part is acting out its own role, by what it is inclined to do by the deterministic laws of physics, while leaving open minute factors of possibility. That is, it is still free to make a different move, one which would appear to be chance, or random. Also, there must be an non-conscious relation between all the different parts, so that the possibility which is left open by each individual is multiplied by the possibility left open by each other, allowing for coincidental apparent chance or random acts. This "coincidence" acts to "amplify possibility". When the whole, as a group, does something unexpected, the effect of amplified possibility is realized. We observe this, "the effects of amplified possibility" every time a being makes an act which we designate as freely chosen.

Fourthly; and this point involves another encounter at the same event, aswell. The realisation that brief meetings between particular people can have a meaning, or significance, way beyond what we might expect. And that some kind of group communion is going on within populations. — Punshhh

This is analogous to the above referenced "butterfly effect" itself. However, there is a very big difference. Understanding of the butterfly effect is based in principles of chance, randomness, described by chaos theory. This theory demonstrates how the concept of "amplified possibility" is permissible in a deterministic world, if we allow that at a fundamental level, chance occurrence is real. The chance occurrence must be very real, for chaos theory to be real, so in reality chaos theory is a denial of the "deterministic world". People will claim that chaos theory is consistent with determinism, but it is not, because it requires chance, undetermined actions, at the basic level.

What you are indicating is that these supposedly "chance" occurrences, which form the base of chaos theory, actually have meaning and significance which extends far beyond the capacity of the conscious human mind to understand. This implies that within the "non-conscious relation between all the different parts", there is some form of what you call "group communion", which is some form of recognition of the underlying meaning or significance, and this acts to cause the amplification of possibility which is required for the individuals to act together as a whole, in a way which is non-deterministic.

I already gave good reasons why it isn't a case of premature judgement.

A tree produces a seed in order to produce another tree. If you just look at the seed and say "oh that's not a tree, obviously it failed let's destroy this tree" one quickly notices an error in judgement. Belief systems call this arrogance or pride. Society calls this impatience and prudence. Science calls this just being wrong. Remember that. — Outlander

I don't see the relevance. If the seed fails in producing a tree it demonstrates its own faultiness.

I'm more inclined to see this as a straight expression, but I don't know. It seems hard to reconcile the notion that Adorno is making fun of this idea while also noting how the place where ontology hits bottomlessness is the place of truth. — Moliere

Where's the difficulty? Think of it as I said, when ontology hits (the bottom of) bottomlessness, there it finds truth. In other words, ontology never finds truth. And, contrary to those who think that truth is never hidden from us, Adorno seems to think it is always hidden from us.

I have a hard time reading this like he's poking fun. — Moliere

Well he has already said that there is humour involved in philosophy.

Dont you see this as a suggestion, to "fall into the abyss"? Doesn't he say that those that don't do that, will turn to analytical and tautological statements? What is an abyss, if not something bottomless? — Pussycat

i don't see your point. When he says that, he is talking about those who think that truth cannot hide from us. That whole paragraph, from which you quoted, is all part and package of that sarcasm involving the relationship between truth and groundlessness. To avoid groundlessness we choose tautology, but tautology is useless, powerless. So metaphysics is nothing but the insane prattle of going from one extreme to the other.

Doesn't he say here that it is with mental acrobatics that one should approach the extremes? And that the herd will see these moves as nothing more than self satisfied rhetoric, as perhaps it was done with Nietzsche? — Pussycat

He's sarcastically making fun of metaphysics. It's mental acrobatics, yes, but it is doing nothing (Wittgenstein's idleness) but insane, ridiculous moves, which we might be entertained by (laugh at). These acrobatic moves are even beyond sophistry in ridiculousness, because at least the agility of sophistry is purposefully directed.

Thanks for that description.

Except that the reality demonstrated by the sciences is only demonstrable from the very same system of conception/perception representation, as the common Everydayman reality not the least concerned with the scientific version at all. — Mww

The point though, is that what is demonstrated is its own faultiness. You know, when a method fails in its capacity to reach the desired end, it demonstrates its own faultiness.

Activity is exactly as we represent it to ourselves, give appearances in compliance with our particular physiology alone. The fact it is a vastly oversimplified representation doesn’t make it false; it merely makes it incomplete, and that merely from perspective, iff given by a deeper scale of investigation. The point being, the completion of the representation, determined from such deeper scale, wouldn’t be a necessary addendum to our experience, insofar as knowing e.g., the distinct molecular composition of different kinds of forks, does nothing whatsoever for disturbing the already established activity of getting food to the mouth using one. Contingent with respect to future experience, certainly, for deeper-scale investigations make things like penicillin possible. Such is science, not as opposed but in juxtaposition, to metaphysics. — Mww

I completely disagree with all this. Perhaps, by the principle of relativity, activity is exactly as we represent it to ourselves, but I thing relativity is a means of avoiding truth. In general, oversimplification is falsity.

Of course. On the one hand, good things for me are not necessarily good things for you, hence each good of a thing is a subjective judgement. On the other hand, any of my judgements regarding what is good, insofar as they all arise in me alone, can hardly be termed subjective, in that there is nothing to which they relate except my own determinability. The good in such case, reverts to relative degrees of a necessarily presupposed good, rather than different forms of good itself. Such condition is the same for both of us, granting the commonality of our respective human inclinations and intellectual attitudes. — Mww

We seem to be losing any common ground for discussion.

Insufficient….for what? — Mww

Insufficient for truth. That is what I was talking about.

If the past and future are constituents of the present, then the present is not something pure, but something that does not participate in ousia or substance. — JuanZu

The point though, is that "substance", just like "the present" may itself be an illusion. So the issue is not whether the present is something pure, but whether the present has any kind of reality at all. And if it is real why would we think that it partakes of substance?

Your position fails, i think, when it demands precision, since you are seeking to differentiate between past, present and future by treating them as substances. — JuanZu

I treat past and future as substance, but I see no reason to assume any substantial existence of the present. The present is purely active, without substance. I disliked your proposal because it required three substances, instead of my two. by making the present something distinct from the past and future.

Something that interests me is knowledge acquired through the witnessing of events. — Punshhh

I believe it is important to the topic of this thread, to understand how intention guides attention, and knowledge is dependent on attention. So 'the created world' is a product of 'what we pay attention to', and 'what we pay attention to' is guided by our intention.

I can remember and visualise clearly, in memory, events that happened 30 years ago. In which I witnessed something unexplainable, something which defies credulity and which has broad ranging implications for how I think about the world and reality. And yet at the time, it was just something I noticed, experienced, for a split second. Something that happened so quickly and was over before I could react. I could have just carried on, walked past and not given it another thought. — Punshhh

I find it very interesting how different people will remember the very same event in completely different ways. So you might say, something incredulous happened, but someone else in the same area might just notice a mundane occurrence.

But my enquiring mind and curiosity latched onto it instantly and it is still with me now as though it happened yesterday. — Punshhh

In Plato's Theatetus, and Meno, Socrates said that curiosity, or wonder, is the source of philosophy. Being amazed is what inspires inquiry. Those who simply take things for granted do not notice all the potential sources of amazement, and do not aspire to philosophy.

Yeah, my fault, being facetious. I’m just having trouble understanding how anyone could feel physical pain from a “faulty idea”. You said objects were, or might be, just faulty ideas, a hammer, being an object represented by that conception, would fit the bill. — Mww

OK, I see what you are saying, and it exposes a misunderstanding of what I said, which I didn't notice before. Let me try again.

The idea of "objects" is a faulty idea. That you pick up a thing called a hammer, and start banging at things called nails, is a misconception, a faulty representation of the reality of the situation. It is just conception and perception which is supported facility and efficiency. It is very easy to understand reality in this way. To have objects which we name and talk about facilitates communication, and easy knowledge. However, sciences like chemistry and physics, prove to us that reality is actually completely different from this conception/perception representation. Activity is not at all as we represent it, as picking up objects called a hammer and nails, and hitting one object with another. That's a vastly oversimplified representation of what is actually going on, and really a faulty representation.

Why your pain reference is irrelevant, is that a person will feel pain after making the mistake which you describe as hitting one's thumb with a hammer, regardless of whether this description, "hitting one's thumb with a hammer", is an accurate description of what really happens, or not.

In the search for accurate representation, if not for the LNC, what other way is there to judge the relation between the object we perceive and the object we think? If logic doesn’t end the search, insofar all relations are determinable by it, it stands to reason the search for a relation wouldn’t end. But it always does, either in the affirmation or negation thereof, so the logic would seem to be working. — Mww

The LNC does not apply to the good of intention. This is why goods are often said to be subjective, different people can have contradicting goals, or goods. Even the same person will sometimes have conflicting goals. That is what makes deliberation necessary.

The "object we think" is created through the guidance of intention. As explained above, intention guides attention, which induces observation. The "object we perceive" as the result of observation, is therefore a product of intention. Since intention is the guiding factor, in the relation between the object we think and the object we perceive, and the LNC does not apply to intention, then LNC based logic is not what is required to end the search for understanding this relation. We must consider the type of logic by which we deliberate, and judge goods. This is a logic of priority and hierarchy, where things exist in a relation of order, rather than a logic of this or that.

There’s that faulty idea thing again. — Mww

Science demonstrates very clearly, that the conceptual structure based in objects of substance, physical objects, moving and interacting in space, is insufficient, and cannot adequately represent the reality of activity. This implies that it is a faulty idea. Please accept this as reality, instead of referring to mundane experiences in an attempt to make fun of the reality of the situation.

Furthermore, empirical knowledge is not of a physical object, but the representation of it, and the senses have nothing to do with representations, being merely the occasion for the possibility of them. — Mww

Right, with this understanding you ought to be in a very good position to be capable of simply rejecting this representation, that of "empirical knowledge". This representation has demonstrated to us that it has reached its limits of efficacy, and at that point it has shown itself, proved to us, that it itself, is based in faulty ideas. Therefore we need to start all over, from the bottom up, with something more reasonable as the foundation.

Yes. The good isn’t something to know; it is something to feel. That by which one feels anything is reducible to an aesthetic judgement, that by which he knows something is reducible to a discursive judgement. The formal ground of the one is pure practical reason, of the other is pure theoretical reason. — Mww

OK, now since the two, practical reason and theoretical reason, may contradict, and this will inevitably call into question the applicability of the LNC, we need to be able to hand priority to one or the other. Would you not agree, that "that by which one feels anything" is necessarily prior to 'that by which he knows something"? This puts practical reason as the higher, more conclusive form of judgement.

Kant supports this as well. The a priori intuitions of space and time, as the conditions of sensibility, are "that by which one feels something". Since these intuitions form the basis for theoretical reason, we must conclude that this type of judgement, practical reason, is a higher form of judgement.

Last but not least, that by which one merely comprehends the possibility of knowledge, is pure speculative reason, upon which is constructed the transcendental philosophy of German Enlightenment idealism. — Mww

The category of "speculative reason" is completely unnecessary, created and referred to, as a distraction. Rather than accepting the reality that practical reason is higher than theoretical reason, and that theoretical reason is subordinate to it, another category, speculative reason, is proposed as higher than the two. However, when we recognize the reality that practical reason is actually higher than theoretical reason, and that practical reason is by its very nature speculative, then there is no need for that further category.

Anyhow, the question is whether the groundlessness is real or not, contradiction also, and what is ND's stance against it. — Pussycat

Try the following.

I think what I'd say wrt Heidegger is that he hits groundlessness, but the fascist objects to groundlessness and so posits a sphere of absolute origins. — Moliere

How would one ever "hit groundlessness"? Adorno claims that Heidegger hits bottomlessness, but that really doesn't make sense. One can hit the bottom, but if there is no bottom you'll keep falling endlessly without ever hitting bottomlessness. So, if Adorno says that Heidegger "hits bottomlessness" that's just a judgement or criticism which we throws at Heidegger. It's not what Heidegger actually did, or thought he was doing. And, since "hits bottomlessness" really makes no sense at all, he's casting it as a joke, a piece of sarcasm.

The other translation provided by Pussycat above, is even more telling: "...Heidegger, starts banging away at groundlessness...". I believe Adorno is actually making fun of this idea of groundlessness, or bottomlessness, talking about it as if it is something concrete, something one can bang away at, or hit upon, like the ground, or the bottom. It's like the concept of infinity, and making fun of it by saying something like 'so and so counted an infinity of these items, and an infinity of those items', etc.. That's the joke of "hitting bottomlessness". Banging away at bottomlessness, is like repeatedly reaching infinity in a count.

The truly groundless move here would be, after hitting groundlessness, to shirk back and create some absolute beginning in order to cover up the truth. — Moliere

So, this phrase "...after hitting groundlessness...", really makes no sense. It's like saying "after I reach infinity". And Adorno is really making fun of this entire concept of groundlessness, or bottomlessness. And, if Adorno says, truth is reached when we hit groundlessness, he means truth is never reached. When ontology hits bottomlessness [something which is self-contradictory and therefore impossible] there it finds truth.

After making this point that unlike some who believe truth cannot hide from us, the opposite is actually the case, truth is always hidden from us, he proceeds to explain the fragility of truth. "It sways gently", meaning it's a moving target, due to its temporal content.

The open
thought is unprotected against the risk of going astray into what is
popular; nothing notifies it that it has adequately satisfied itself in the
thing, in order to withstand that risk. The consistency of its execution,
however, the density of the web, enables it to hit what it should.

Notice, "truth" which has been dismissed as being equivalent to bottomlessness, has been replaced with an end "to hit what it should".

Do you realise that you have just said that we know nothing, in particular. Well apart from what we have evolved to deal with. — Punshhh

This really depends on how you would define "know". Unlike some epistemologists, I don't think that truth is a requirement for "knowledge". Plato, in The Theaetetus, demonstrated that we cannot actually ensure truth, so a determination of truth is not necessary for us to call some information "knowledge". So I'm not saying that we know nothing, I'm saying that truth isn't really part of our knowledge.

I would go further and state that we cannot say anything positive, or negative about anything other than our world (except through revelation), welcome to the ranks of mysticism — Punshhh

I tend to enjoy your mystic perspective.

Ohfercrissakes. Obviously, my point is your thumb will be just as wounded by a mis-directed “faulty idea” as mine is by a hammer. — Mww

Sorry Mww, but I still don't get it. Whether or not a person understands how one received a wound, or even what it means to be wounded, is irrelevant to the feeling of being wounded. It seems like you are trying to say that fi one doesn't know how they got wounded, then they cannot feel the wound. If that is your point, then it's not valid.

well, good luck with that, I say. — Mww

Thank you, as you seem to understand, we need as much luck as we can possibly get, with this endeavour.

Now, you might say the comparison is always just between your own representations, a succession predicated on changes in experience, which, ironically enough, is precisely what every cave-dweller since Day One, has done. But there is never in the manifold of successive changes in your own representations the implication of the unconditioned, that from which no further change is possible and from which the only logical notion of an accurate representation, is given. — Mww

You seem to be saying that the process would go on forever, infinitely. I disagree, I think there would be an end to it. Whether the end comes in a good way or a bad way is another question, but I think the good way would be better than the bad way.

Which leaves you with….(sigh)…..only those that don’t contradict each other, and from which it is clear the form of truth, that in a cognition which conforms to is object, already manifests an accurate representation, and justifies logic as the necessary criteria for the form any truth must exhibit. — Mww

You are completely neglecting the reality of possibilities, and our inclination to judge some possible outcomes as better than others. It is not contradiction, or lack of it, which forms the basis, or grounding of our judgements, it is better and worse, good and bad, which provides that base. And these have a view toward the future, rather than the view toward the past which empirical representation has. Therefore real truth is grounded in the principles by which we judge goodness, as the basic form of all judgement.

Given as established the conditio sine qua non form of truth, that in a cognition which conforms to its object, and the impossibility of exceeding empirical knowledge with respect to experience of the objects contained in those cognitions, which is always that to which the form of truth relates, it follows there is no universal criteria for the fact of truth available to the human being. — Mww

Do you recognize two very distinct meanings of "object"? One is a physical thing, an object of sensation, empirical knowledge. The other is a goal, or end, the good. Since the physical object of empirical knowledge is demonstrably a faulty concept, produced by the deceptive nature of the senses, then we must consider that the true "object" is the goal or end, the good. Therefore "the form of truth" relates to the good, as the true object, the goal for the future, and not to the false "object" which is the object of empirical knowledge. The "object", as the goal, or end, the good, cannot be known by empirical knowledge, and this is why we must exceed empirical knowledge for real truth, to understand the real object, as the good. That is the principle of the is/ought divide.

There may be considered sufficient reason to exceed empirical knowledge insofar as the empirical knowledge we have does not afford us truth as such. But considering sufficient reason for an impossibility, is incomprehensible. — Mww

Do you classify knowing the good as impossible?

But it’s more complicated than that... — Punshhh

Yes, i think it's very complicated, and the trend for us is to simplify. We even have evolved in a way which has us sensing a very small bit of reality. So it is intuitive for us, as built into the fabric of our very existence, to simplify things. Consider for example, that our eyes are only sensitive to a small portion of the electromagnetic wavelengths, one octave so to speak. We've simply evolved in a way to focus on a very small, but very relevant part of reality.

The simplification helps to keep us focused directly on what is important and purposeful to our little corner of being, but it misleads us into thinking that this is representative of "the universe" as a whole. Ontologies like monism are an extension of this misleading trend toward oversimplification.

As for the “activity of something else”, presumably we are talking of distant, or large objects, acting as poles. As in electrical, or magnetic poles? — Punshhh

Not necessarily distant or large. If for example, we understand electromagnetism as waves, then there must be substance which the waves are active in (common called aether). That is simply the nature of a wave, it is the activity of the particles of an underlying substance. In our trend to simplify things, it seems like we overlook this need for an underlying substance which is active as waves, in our representations of electromagnetism. But then we end up with a wave function, or something like that, which accounts for the energy of the waves in their capacity to interact with assumed particles of matter, without providing any real representation of the waves.

The issue of poles is a further problem which I don't think can even be approached without a true representation of the waves. To look for the poles without first representing the waves would be like looking for a cause without first knowing the effect which you are looking for the cause of.

it's really very interesting. — Wayfarer

I believe that. But Heidegger is quite difficult. Good luck!

Tell that to my thumb, after getting whacked by a mis-directed hammer. — Mww

At the time of injury, I would never be thinking about ontology. What's your point here?

Doesn’t have to be an accurate representation; it is only necessary such representation not contradict either Mother Nature, at the same level, and not contradict antecedent experience on any level. — Mww

Speak for yourself. Some of us are interested in truth. That's what I believe philosophy is all about. And for truth accurate representation is necessary, lack of contradiction doesn't fulfil the the criteria for truth. That we don't have truth is forgivable, as you say, but that doesn't mean we ought not seek it.

Your reasoning is exemplary; it just exceeds the criteria for empirical knowledge of things on a common everyday scale. I mean….when was the last time you approached the SOL in anything with which you were consciously engaged? We’ve all perceived the alignment of susceptible particles into the shape of a field, but none of us have perceived the field of which the particles assume the shape. — Mww

I think i said already, that a key point in Plato's philosophy is the failings, or deficiencies of sensation as a guide toward truth. To find truth we must exceed empirical knowledge. The "common everyday scale" is the life of the cave dweller. Truth is about escaping that common everyday perspective.

I'm unsure how best to to get this across, but you cannot have a shadow without a physical object physically blocking light, even if we can never access that object. — AmadeusD

This argument is based on a specific assumption about what "a shadow" is. If that assumption is wrong, then the argument is unsound. I believe the assumption is wrong, therefore I believe your argument is unsound. I'm unsure how to best get this across to you.

This doesn't make much sense. A person is not perceiving if they are imagining, which seems to be what you're talking about. — AmadeusD

My argument is that a person may misjudge what one is perceiving, and this does not imply that the person perceives nothing. That was to counter your claim that if a person is not perceiving objects one is perceiving nothing. It may be the case that the person judges oneself to be perceiving objects, but is not perceiving objects, yet still is perceiving.

Fascinating line of thought. — Wayfarer

It all relates to the distinction I make between past and future. "Things", as physical objects, are a product of sense knowledge, empirical evidence. However, despite the fact that people claim that sensation occurs at the present, all sensation is always in the past from the perspective of the sensing subject. This means that "things", or "physical objects" refers only to the past. And when we realize that the future consists of possibilities rather than things, or physical objects, this forces us to totally reconceptualize what exactly exists at the present, or more precisely, what is actually happening at the present.

I agree, bottomlessness, and groundlessness have pretty much the same meaning for me. "Bottomlessness" however is more illustrative, and better suited for criticism of Heidegger because of the image of endless falling, never hitting the bottom. So I believe that "groundlessness" is the charge made against negative dialectics, as a philosophical principle, without grounding, unsound, no foundation. Then Adorno turns this around to say that groundlessness is really better understood as endless falling (never hitting the ground) and this is the vertiginous position which absolute Spirit gives us.

So far we agree of what negative dialectics would say of others, but what would it say of itself? — Pussycat

I think that Adorno believes that the property of "groundlessness" is not good for a philosophy, as indicated by "its fascist fruits", therefore he wants to escape this charge. That is why, in the lectures he very deliberately posited the determinate negative. That posit gives negative dialectics a position relative to positivism, as the philosophy which will determine its mistakes. That is what grounds it.

Wouldn't you think that, as long as subject and object cannot be reconciled, as in Hegel, then an abyss would form between them? And that this abyss would be manifest in any grounding attempts? — Pussycat

Remember, the grounding is a negative grounding. Negative dialectics is grounded in the deficiencies and faults of the philosophies which it criticizes. Therefore the abyss between subject and object which may be evident in Hegel, would in fact be a grounding for negative dialectics.

What I am saying is that the idea that there is "a thing" which is perceived is a faulty idea. So, I'm saying that all these supposed "things", forest fires, balls, and clouds, could be better understood if we simply accept that the perception of them as things is mistaken and misleading. It doesn't matter that all types of critters act as if they are perceiving things, because they all evolved in a similar way, and that was in a way which conditioned them to act as if they are perceiving things, just like us. The claim that we all perceive the same "things" is just as effective to argue that we all make the same mistake, as it is to argue that it must be the truth, because it is common.

So here's an example. We describe the way that electromagnetic energy interacts with 'things', as the photoelectric effect. Because we understand electrons and atoms as things existing in spacetime, this forces us to conceive of electromagnetism as things, photons, in order that we can understand this interaction. However, much evidence indicates to us that electromagnetism actually exists in the form of waves, rather than as things called photons. Further, there is also much evidence which indicates that the interaction between the supposed 'things', photons and electrons, would be better understood, if we represent these things as waves in a substance, rather than as things in spacetime. Therefore the evidence indicates that we are moving in the wrong direction, toward misunderstanding rather than toward understanding, by representing the wave activity of electromagnetism as things, photons, instead of representing the supposed physical things as wave disturbances, to establish the required compatibility to understand interaction.

As an analogy, consider how we understand hearing. We know that when a supposed thing makes a noise, we don't sense the noise as physical particles of noise being emitted from the thing making the noise, and being received by the ear. We understand it as a wave activity of molecules. But then we must understand that the supposed thing emitting the noise, and the supposed thing receiving the noise, are not actually things at all, but a collection of particles, molecules. The idea that there is a thing which emits the noise, and a thing which receives the noise is very misleading because it does not allow the proper understanding, which requires that the supposed 'things' must be understood as really the activity of something else. The true understanding is that the supposed 'thing' is not a thing at all, but some other activity of something else, which appears to us as if it were a thing.

That's the key to understanding how the conception of 'things' is misleading. The supposed 'thing' is really a bunch of underlying activity, and insisting that it is actually a physical thing debilitates our capacity to understand the reality of it. That is the point of process philosophy in general. Modeling reality as consisting of things which are perceived by us is not an accurate representation, and very misleading to anyone who wants a true understanding.

I don't see wallabies as to be eaten but as to be preserved, but I have hit and killed one with my car ( on the road, not on the property I dwell on), which I subsequently ate (not my car, the wallaby, just in case I've been obscure again). — Janus

At the base level, there's nothing wrong with eating roadkill.