Way to go girl.
You show em how its done.

When someone is jiving you, they are trying to make you look stupid.

I don't know who you are and whether you really are a closet sociopath — Wallows

Hell, he came out a long time ago.

Rule 12.5
Never listen to anything S says.
Rule 12.6
If S is in the discussion try to make as many spelling and grammar mistakes as possible without seeming to be doing it on purpose. (It drives him into Nazi mode)
Rule 12.7
If you are gonig to the trouble of writing rules for the forum, take the time to read them yourself and abide by them.

Is that how people get rich today? Shit man where did i see my pajamas?

As an experienced ex boyfriend/husband of several delightful females, mainly because of similar situations, I can highly recommend that you decide early on before there are complications.
Give him advanced warning that there will be a decision making meeting about the future and that he should bring along his thoughts, you do the same. Granting that things do change when people are together plans will have to be flexible, but goals should not be.
When me and the missus got together she was told that I did not want any more kids, I was told that she wanted to continue studying. But we bother agreed that we wanted to have our own house. Thirty something years later we have a 25 yr old daughter that finished university, the wife has her degrees, we have our own house and we do not owe anyone anything.
But we both still drink a few beers once in a while.

Setting and working towards goals might make him think before drink.

I'm not saying I literally like it, was just being facetious about it. — Anaxagoras

Yeah, I figured that one out. :wink:

I remember this from 7th grade, we had a sexy teacher that wanted to discuss the meaning of Easter.

She asked us why we thought we were given Easter eggs and the answers, looking back at them, were hilarious.
I remember saying that they used chocolate because before they used to have real eggs but they went rotten.
A friend said that it was because chocolate came from Africa. Even the teacher had to think about that one.
Another thought it was about eating dragon eggs from the dragons Saint George had killed so that there would not be any more dragons.
No one came up with the association to Jesus
Jeez, that brought back some memories.

I like how you ignored me when I answered your question directly. Apparently you're looking for confirmation bias. — Anaxagoras

You might like it but I don't. Seems she has her own agenda and the rest does not count.

Don't you think its a chain reaction? Little girls wouldn't think theyre smart or capable of maths or philosophy if they don't see enough women in the field. — EcceHomo

Would that not depend on the parents, the mothers especially. If the mother does not have enough balls to tell her daughters that they can do whatever they like, then maybe I was wrong about mothers being philosophers.
And the same would have to apply to men becoming dress makers, hair stylists and cooks.

How many female truck drivers do you know? Could that be because of lack of role models or is it just because most girls would never dream of driving a truck because it is not glamorous enough?

He was created in my image. — Hanover

:rofl: :rofl:

I'm pretty sure Baden and @Michael will be here because their mothers are already here and they probably want to see them. — Hanover

Waz der mamas doin der?

I'm like a cult leader, just more godlike. — Hanover

Have you been reading S's posted, you are beginning to sound like him.

Sir2u, motherhood is different... I even find it insulting of you to say that about women. — EcceHomo

Shucks lady, now you made me feel guilty. Well not really that much, maybe just a little, no actually not even a little.

How can you be so belittling to the wondrous state of motherhood? If being a mother is not philosophizing then I am not sure that philosophy even exists.
Can't believe that I am being called out for saying that mothers are philosophers, damn, next thing you know I will get shit for saying that cats are cuddly.

And every single person is a philosopher/thinker by your standards. — EcceHomo

Are we not all philosophers then? What sets apart a philosopher from a regular person?

Just take a cab. I'll pay the fare when he arrives. — Hanover

Bloody marvelous old chap. Next weekend it is then. Who else is going to show up? I might be able to stay for the second round. :grin: :up:

Since it's close to my house, I'll buy the first round. — Hanover

Problem is that I can only stay for a few minutes, but I would be glad to join you for a beer. By the way, could you lend me a few dollars for the fare?

"Why aren't there many female thinkers today?"

Is not trying to be a good mother not philosophical enough for you? Just imagine what kind of a mother you would be if you did not apply your thinking skills to the job.

"looking better baby at half past two" instead of "Some things looking better, baby just passing through"

Elton John Lyrics
"Sacrifice"

Hearing probably influenced by early escapades and all night parties. My version just seemed truer.

Because they don't have the meta-cognition for this. — schopenhauer1

How do you know that they don't have the meta-cognition for this? If as you have said this is true, there must be some evidence of it.

To know one's own likes and dislikes (and not just "dislike" in the moment as a primary perception) is to have a model of self, which as far as we know really requires language.

Our species happened to evolve in the unique trait of linguistic mental capacities which then ratcheted the brain in a co-evolution of sorts to have abilities that co-opted this capacity with more plasticity, episodic memory, and learning (which allowed for more cultural input rather than hard-wired or rudimentary learning techniques). — schopenhauer1

Again, what proof do you have that language is necessary to have a model of self. We don't even know if animals have language or not. There are many theories but no real evidence in either direction. How can you be sure that there are not animals that have a language hard wired into them. There is an theory about this question but I will let you find it.

The language centers and co-opted centers that evolved with/from this were taken from more primitive centers I agree (i.e. mirror neurons, FOXP2 gene, the neocortex development, the brocas and wernikes region, etc.). — schopenhauer1

So the only way to develop language is the human way, no other possibilities? We certainly don't fully understand how humans have developed into what we are today, and unfortunately we have even less understanding of how animals have done so. Yes they can to a certain accuracy explain the ancestry of a lot of animal, where the came from, but they still have a long way to go explaining anything other than the obvious physical changes. Little has been done to study animal culture, the norms, customs, rules and so on of the group interactions. And most social animals do seem to have them.

Let me leave you with a joke.

An old monkey was sitting in a tree deep in the African jungle with his grandson. The little one sees some people coming up the hill towards them.
He jumps up and down with excitement and says "Grandad look, people"
The older monkey says "Sit down and shut up"
A few minutes later the youngster says "Grandad look they are almost here"
The older monkey says "Sit down and shut up"
A few minutes later the youngster says "Grandad they are almost here. Lets go down and talk to them"
The older monkey says "Sit down and shut up"
The youngster, almost crying says " But Gramps I want to talk to the people"
The older monkey says "Sit down and shut up"
As the people pass by the young monkey weeps at the lost opportunity. After a while he says " Why did you not want to talk to the people Grandad?"

The old monkey looks at the little one and says " If those white things ever found out we could talk they would drag us away and make us work for nothing like they did with those black things that used to live down by the river."

:up: Nice

the moral of this story — Wallows

Keep on laughing so that you can die happy.

I know you want to derail this part into the topic of "animals know they dislike" and make misapplied analogies to animal behavior that are not the same, but that isn't quite the point here really.

Rather, it is that we humans deal with the fact that we can know we dislike and then basically have to decide if we want to deal with the stress of even lesser options or going through the unliked situation anyways- despite our UNDERSTANDING of our OWN dislike. — schopenhauer1

I don't think that anyone here has actually denied that this is true about humans, most have accepted it to be true. Whether it is a self applied defense mechanism or even some sort of hard wired "suck it up" behavior we cannot be sure, but yes humans have this ability. It is incredible.

But it is your insistence that only humans have this ability that bothers me.
There are many examples of animals doing repeatedly things that they like to do, after obviously taking some sort of decision to do it. There are many examples of animals not doing things that they obviously enjoy doing and have done willingly plenty of times, after obviously taking some sort of decision to do it. I agree that not all animals are capable, but there are many that do seem to consider consequences before acting.

So why do you think is it not possible for them to understand their own likes and dislikes? Could it not be simply because we are not able to understand them that they appear not to be self conscious?

He used to be an animal. Then he got into philosophy and pulled himself up by his four dewlaps. — Bitter Crank

I am still am animal, and always will be just like the rest of you.
And no I do not even have a double chin never mind a rollypolly neck. The only extra weight I have is the 12 pack just above the belt line which I do blame philosophy for. Too much time sitting around contemplating the universe.

What you had to say is interesting, but it didn't connect with what you quoted. That's OK, not complaining. — Bitter Crank

Oh sorry, it was only the first line or so that was in reply to what you said. The rest was just my rambling mind ranting on.

You seem to be very sensitive and knowledgeable about animals. What is your background with them? — Noah Te Stroete

A life time living with and observing them.

Of course they do, but they need to be properly managed. We can safely deceive ourselves that we COULD beat the boss into submission with our bare hands, but we can not afford to deceive ourselves about getting away with it. We can safely believe that we COULD execute the perfect bank robbery; we can not safely deceive ourselves that we will be successful. When it comes to robbing banks, for instance, one needs to be meticulous and ruthlessly realistic. — Bitter Crank

Been there, done that. Humans quite often do deceive themselves into believing that they can get away with things though, and end up in trouble about it.
Do animals even need to deceive themselves? Say for the moment that they have the capability to do so, what would they deceive themselves about? And more importantly, how would we ever know that they were doing it? If they do deceive themselves then we would have just as much of a problem proving it as we would proving they are not self aware.
We take a lot for granted when it comes to what animals are mentally capable of, but how does anyone know that any of it is true. Birds, rats, dogs, cats all do things that are for no apparent reason and not all of it could be attributed to instinctual survival behavior.
When a dog looks for his master's hand to get his ears scratched, does he do it by rote? If that were so then the dog would need some sort of a trigger to activate the action. In many cases I have found that dogs just walk up to you and indicate they want a scratch. Would this not indicate that on some level they have decided that they like scratches and want one now?

I am of the belief that most other animal species cannot reflect and evaluate whether they like or dislike their current emotional state and then, have to justify continuing doing an unpleasant task for expediency. — schopenhauer1

Maybe we are over complicating things. What tasks do most animals actually have to justify doing, whether they like them or not? Apart from putting themselves in danger to acquire food I can think of nothing else. But it might even be possible that they just decide not to do the things they don't like or want to do.

Why would an animal return to a place were a mate was killed if they knew that danger was there? Could it be that they don't know the danger is there(they forget), or that they have forgotten the mate or that need forces them to return? None of these seems plausible when there is no reason to go there except to visit the place. Dogs often revisit places that they went to with their mates and seem to remember them.

Lost pets often find their families after weeks or months of traveling, sometimes to unknown places. There has to be some sort of motivation beyond momentary happiness.

While I lived in the USA a friend moved house from Kenner, New Orleans to the other side of the lake near Covington. About half way across the bridge the cat escaped its cage and jumped out the window. There was absolutely no stopping for any reason on the then very narrow 25 mile long bridge so they had to continue. Two weeks later the cat turns up at the new house, that she never even new existed. Following the scent might explain how she did it, but it does not explain why she did it. What possible motivation would she have had to make the trip instead of just finding a new place to eat. She must have made the decision that it was worth trying for some reason.

What I would consider more important is explaining the fun and unusual things they do. What motivates them to enjoy doing things? Can it be nothing more that momentary joy, that would not account for cases where the animals repeat the actions on other occasions. To repeat the action would mean that they in some way evaluated it and made a decision to do it again, this would mean that they do self reflect upon their emotions and memories.

I never said they didn't have other capacities like using tools, and problem-solving. — schopenhauer1

What would be the motivation to use these skills? Or do they just use them because they can?

So many people insist that animals don't have the capacity to register whether they enjoy what they are doing but I have never seen proof of this. That they do not reflect on enjoying themselves has not been proven or dis-proven simply because we do not know how the think. We do not understand properly how humans think still.

I see animals playing games, my dogs play what appears to be a rather sophisticated form of Tag, why would they do this if they don't enjoy it. I have seen birds, again a crow, sliding down a snowy roof and them going back and doing it over and over again. Why would they do this if it was not because of the fun of it?


There is little information about what wild animals do, most of what we know is from specific small group studies that cannot show everything all of the animals of that species do nor what they do while not being studied, or from one off observations like the videos we see on youtube.

Personally I give animals the benefit of doubt when it comes to whether they really think or not and treat them as if they do.

We don't do the business of surviving like other animals might. — schopenhauer1

Actually, I think that here you are wrong. We do go about the business of survival, just like every other living thing. The only difference is the way we do it.

Let us go back to the black bird for a minute. You agreed that they are capable of intelligence and innovation to solve problems.

Another example would be the snail shells I found on my roof awhile back. How did they get up there? After looking around at the other houses I saw that only mine had shells on it. After some thought I aligned one of the security cameras so that it would show a piece of the roof. Turned out that the culprit was crows, they dropped the snails on the roof and waited till they came out of the shell to escape the heat. Dinner served. Turns out that my house is the only one around with a small degree of inclination and the snails don't roll off.

If the animals are doing things like this instead of doing things as the have all along there must be a reason. Humans started finding easier ways to do things because they realized that it was hard work the way they had been doing it. Would it not be possible that we think animals are not aware of these things but actually they are?

There again, maybe birds don't complain about their jobs because they actually enjoy them. Making love in the trees, eating healthy food outdoors, no schedules to keep, only having to look after the kids for a couple of months and no college bills to pay. Humans would not bitch about those working conditions.

You can't kid a kidder. — S

Sorry, but if you want to talk about goats you will have to address YOURSELF to Banno.

Calm down, dear. — S

Too late, you missed the bonus.

You were given an opportunity to play your favorite role, Grammar Nazi, and you missed it. You must be getting old or maybe you just spend too much time not proof reading.

Can't you read.

I said that if no one looks for me they can piss of.
And stop being childish and going back to edit your posts.
Do what you always do and add another post.

Oh, by the way, did you happen to notice how far off topic you have taken this thread. You should be ashamed of your self.

Bonus time.

Perhaps some people don't self-reflect that much. I guess this is for the people who know they don't like doing the work they are doing. I refuse to believe some people don't reflect on whether they like the work they are doing. They may not communicate it perhaps. Or they are buying into a narrative, deception, or habit of mind. But that is my exact premise. — schopenhauer1

I think most people have some part of their job that don't like, so they focus on the benefits they get from it. It is not that they are buying into a narrative or performing some sort of self deception but simple that they realize that there is little most of them can do about it so they don't sweat it.

I have had many jobs starting at 17 working as a garbageman for the local council. It paid my educational expenses and because we did the job well we were respected and got lots of tips. I had nice clothes and cash to go out at weekends and party. But I really was not happy about the job, it was hard and could be messy. I left after I had a non-work related accident and sourly missed the money in my next job, sitting on a mowing machine cut miles of grass all day did not get you tips.

Hey folks, was that not a great imitation of someone we all know but who's name we shall not mention. :rofl:

The Oracle has spoken and will now rest.

If anyone looks for me, tell them to piss off.
If no one looks for me, they can piss off as well

I think I will have to find a bigger basket!

I should be humble like you. :rofl: — S

It certainly would not harm you to try. :smirk:

Or would it go against your very basic nature? :worry:

To stop it, we must limit our dealings with only what has been said as much as possible and when we think miscommunication has occurred, being able to identify that and put a stop to it. It's not as easy to do that as it sounds, when that same miscommunication may have already produced a lot of irritation and negative feelings. — Judaka

Some of us do try, unfortunately some others that consider themselves more as Oracles than participants try to force us into believing that their way is always right and that they are never wrong.

It is frustrating for some to have their ideas brushed aside without anything more of an explanation than, "I have already addressed that, you are wrong, go back and read it again, I cannot be bothered to explain, you should already know that, that is why you have to learn to use google".

But as in the thread about "Why we do jobs we don't like?", here we have the question "Why do we continue to argue with a brick shithouse?" maybe the answer is the same.
Because someone has to.

Your humour is improving. — S

Sorry, I forgot to say thank you for the sarcastic nice compliment.

8.1k :party: — S

As the dead billionaire found out, more is not always better. :cool:

Oh, by the way, I found out why there is no middle finger emoticon.

The discussions in question were my own discussions. You think I could have been the one going off topic in my own discussions? :brow: — S

Sorry again I forgot to answer.

No.

Oh dear dear, I forgot that I should really have put both of those posts together, but whatever my posts average per day needs to get higher so that I can compete in the race to win arguments in the threads.