Given a utilitarian rationale, yes. If the money is spent on bettering the lives of other people, instead of starting wars or such. — Posty McPostface

Are the other peoples lives in need of bettering because they don't want to work, or because they have so many kids that they have to stay home and look after them.
Would it be moral to give money to both?

LOL! The help I received enabled me to go to college and get a well-paying job and pay lots of taxes. — Relativist

You are duly excused then. Feel free to keep on wanking without government handouts. :cool:

And, I think that enlarging one's sphere of interest is a good thing. Seemingly people do agree with this from what posts I gather, perhaps exempt Sir2u. — Posty McPostface

And just where did I say that I was in disagreement with enlarging ones sphere of interest?

I think it's socialism? No? At the very highest of peaks, it's communism, no? — Posty McPostface

And there is the problem with putting political names on things. Everyone automatically looks under their bed.
Both of those systems have been proven to not work well, one more than the other obviously.

Would a functioning society have to fit into one of the niches that have been around for so long?

Are you familiar with the Catholic Worker Movement? — Bitter Crank

No, I have not heard of them before. After looking at their webpage, I find it incredible that all of their branches are in developed counties. Maybe that is why they manage to do some good. I don't know if they work in the third world countries but if they do they are probably not have much success.

I don't like seeing homeless people, and if more welfare would change that for the better, then by all means. — Posty McPostface

Is it morally correct to take more money of the people that work to give to the ones that don't?

How can you reconcile those two seemingly contradictory statements? — Sapientia

In what way do they contradict each other.

Give generously when you can and when, by one's best judgement, the gift will be well used. (When I give a man on the street a dollar, I assume there is a good chance he will buy beer and not invest it in growth stock. Were I in his shoes, I'd buy beer for sure. — Bitter Crank

Best plan, work one on one. Nobody can do things for everyone so why try?

Agreed. What kind of society would that look like, politically? — Posty McPostface

Hang on a minute while I get my crystal ball. Sorry, not even that helps. No idea then. :chin:

There is. How can you be satisfied with things as they are? — Sapientia

Why do I need to widen my sphere of interest? Maybe you situation is better than mine, but I have little to spare and I see no reason to go without so that someone that asks me for money should be obliged.
As I have already stated, I do try to help when it is possible. But why should I go out of my way to do so?

Is this your version of utopia? I hope not. — Sapientia

What is the "this" that you refer to?

But that's anecdotal evidence, so a relatively weak point. And it contradicts my own anecdotal evidence, which effectively means they cancel each other out. — Sapientia

Do you honestly expect me or anyone else to provide any other kind of evidence. I am not even sure it could be called evidence because it is not used to prove any point. But we all know that you use non standard definitions most of the time, so I will just ignore it.

I actually find yours hard to believe, — Sapientia

Who gives a shit what you believe.

which makes me suspect that we're interpreting "the extent that they are able" differently. Maybe your mean instead something more like "the extent that they can live with". — Sapientia

Or maybe you don't understand what I said?

When the situation calls for it, yes. If there were a deadly virus which would wipe out the rest of humanity, and you could easily prevent it, wouldn't you feel obligated to do so? — Sapientia

We were talking about the man asking for money, not some stupid situation invent by a third rate scifi writer.

So tell us, when was the last time you forked out a fiver for some old codger that could not even walk to the corner shop to buy food?

You can send money to the Catholic Worker Movement. They work with the very poor and homeless. — Bitter Crank

They work with them or they work on them?
From what I have seen of those people they probably spend more time fucking them than feeding them.

And I have nothing against the catholic people, it is the goddamned church I cannot stand.

:rofl: I cannot think of anything to say to that. Maybe when the tears dry up. :rofl:

Sometimes they help, if structured right. I'm an example. — Relativist

:lol: OK, if you say so.

We can decide whether their situation is deserving or not: — Bitter Crank

That is the best any of us can do. But if you had nothing to spare after those you love were taken care of, how far would you go to help?

Or, maybe their situation deserves assistance -- a tornado wrecked their part of town (and, coincidentally, they are no more dishonest than anybody else). — Bitter Crank

A few years ago my house was almost wrecked by a 7.8 earthquake. The government offered assistance and then suddenly there was a forced takeover/change of president and it never came. I don't think that it was immoral of me to ask for money, but I did not expect it to be given to me. Some of my workmates actually did make a collection and I was rather embarrassed about receiving it.

Not everyone is dishonest, but not everyone has a valid reason to be asking for money from strangers.

maybe we should learn him to fish? — Aleksander Kvam

:grin: Do you have the time to teach him? That is what needs to be done. Handouts from the government do not solve the problems. Make people that ask for money as a way of life learn to be a productive member of society would help more.

I would rather give some spare money to an old man or woman that cannot help themselves than to my daughter to buy more tennis shoes with. But I don't get into the places where these people live too often.

Speaking politically then isn't the rational solution, mores socialism? — Posty McPostface

Speak emotionally then. Social mores have been the backing of many a maiming and many mutilations
in the begging industry throughout history.

What would be more immoral? Having an aging man dressing up as a clown to tell jokes on a bus and then ask for a few coins or giving the old timer a few coins while he sits by the road begging?

Making our personal sphere of interaction and interest would , as some pointed out, do little or no good. The fact is that there should be no asking for money. A functioning society would take care of its own as a society not as individuals.

What's interesting about it? — Posty McPostface

Are there beggars where you live? I don't mean the guys hanging around asking for money, I mean real beggars.

We just don't know where the money will go, so we don't give. — Posty McPostface

So if you knew then you would give?

If we had assurance, that it would be spent on necessities or the betterment of their situation, then wouldn't you be more inclined to give them money then? — Posty McPostface

Alcoholics NEED booze, would it be moral to help them acquire it?

Surely, we do. To some extent. — Posty McPostface

OK, to what extent? Who should be making the decision or how should it be made? Is there a standard formula for it?

I meant this figuratively. Just rhetorical tripe, hehe. — Posty McPostface

But it is an interesting question.

What can be done to enlarge our sphere of interest, and if anything should be done at all? — Posty McPostface

To be honest, I am not sure if there is anything we need to do. Most people I know help to others to the extent that they are able, if not financially by giving them things they need or helping to look after them in some way.

As individuals, do we really have a moral obligation towards the rest of humanity?

dont think anyone has said that its not OK for begging on the streets — Aleksander Kvam

Me neither. Please read what I said again.

If some random stranger off the street asked you for a hundred dollars for some reason, you wouldn't oblige. — Posty McPostface

Turn the tables, would you expect someone you did not know to give you money. Would you asking them for it be immoral?

I sort of feel sorry for the old guy, he has not only been fooling himself for years but others have been doing it too.

I like the idea, but people living in different time zones might complicate things.

Also I think that the topic should be set the day before the debate so as to give the debaters a chance to catch up on the topic. I don't mean do a complete investigation, but I personally like to have some time to think through things before I have discussions on them. This might not be needed if the topic is about recent events or more common ideas, but most of those would be boring .

Nice story, shame you forgot to add the link. Banno will love it.:smile:

I was referring to contemporary "sightings". — raza

I was not.

I only wanted to plant enough for anyone interested enough for themselves to further look into. — raza

You should have done so before posting the link.

There is a lot of evidence for the genuinly interested. — raza

You should have posted the other links as well then so the posters could read about the information behind your thoughts. Not many people have the time or the interest to go search for the information.

I find it disingenuous when people pose as interested. — raza

And just what are you referring to with this?

I’m aware the US military conduct testing there. Any UFO is likely to be a result of military tests whether such things as flying objects are the military’s tests of their own actual secretly developed craft or secretly developed holograms. Holigraphic technology is more advanced than you may realize which can be utilised to deceive.

The military complex, just as it is with espionage agents, do play games with citizens involving the creation of enemies that don’t actually exist in real life. ‘Security’ is probably the biggest business there is. The ‘Security business’ doesn’t even have to convince to sell. They just take through taxes. — raza

Do some reading.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roswell_UFO_incident

None of the technology you talk about was even dreamed about back them.

Not if the technology is kept secret for use in nefarious operations.

That missing plane made Jacob Rothschlid over 16 billion dollars. Yep, the Rothschild group.

Are you aware of the military airport of Diego Garcia? Residents of The Maldives witnessed that plane near that base. — raza

Unless you can provide sum sort of REASONABLE source for this, and the rest of it, I call BS.

Are you aware of the military airport of Diego Garcia? Residents of The Maldives witnessed that plane near that base. — raza

Are you aware of Roswell, the residents witnessed a UFO near there.

One can't pause the speaker to finish thinking. — Waya

With so many phones in class rooms, why don't students record the teacher so that they can study at home? they could pause and even replay then.

Oh, you with those sunglasses. Haha! — Posty McPostface

Cus I is coool, don u know.

Its like the Squares from Crybaby were given an entire district to flourish and reproduce in. — Akanthinos

Yeah, but they were Canadian English, not English English. Living near the docks in Manchester and having a seafaring father made my vocabulary a bit better than the other kids, but only a little bit.
I remember in 5th grade a teacher being overhead talking about the fucking headmaster being an idiot. We told him that he should not fucking well use that word in front of the fucking kids. He went scarlet and we got away with swearing in front him, for the rest of the year.
We did abuse the situation though. Nudge, nudge, wink.

I'm probably right about this too... — Posty McPostface

Agreed. :cool:

And before you ask, my logic says that rationing is the same as banning.

And I am always right.

I think that's a deal? — Posty McPostface

So now that we have the problem of cakes being banned solved, we can have cake to celebrate out deal. And I want chocolate fudge ice cream on top of mine. :up:

I propose that the glass being half full or half empty depends on the direction it is headed. Like immigrate vs emigrate. — ProbablyTrue

I think that it would be half full after being filled to that level, and half empty after being emptied to that level. So the direction of flow might have something to do with the problem.

More fake news for you. — unenlightened

The first one might not be false, there are plenty of petty politicians fighting for some cause or other just to get their name in the papers so that people will recognize them.

The second one I have no idea about.

I noticed, if I recollect correctly, that even since the old PF, you've been against cakes and pancakes, of all!, being inherently good. — Posty McPostface

Eat some cake, your memory is failing you. Nope, I have nothing at all against cupcakes, big cakes, cheese cakes, ice cream cakes, nor pancakes. I love all of them. :love:

I do have something against people that say things are inherently good though, because that implies that somethings might be inherently bad.

But you are, at least, a likable person so I ask again. Why inherent?

Why not just bloody marvelous?

I just happen to speculate the otherwise. No biggie. — raza

If this equipment had been installed in every aircraft, don't you think we would have heard about some problem it caused or failed to solve?
Counting that they said it would take a few years to get it into all of the aircraft it would still be a few years ago that they become able to remotely control the planes. It seems sort of strange that the people that pushed to spend all of this money are not rushing to validate their wonderful ideas at every opportunity.
Like wise the ones that opposed the installation would be screaming about the smallest of problems caused by them.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3013858/Why-t-airlines-seize-control-doomed-jets-ground-technology-exists-pilots-companies-refuse-use-it.html

Hence it is inherently good. :blush: — Posty McPostface

A lot of people think that heroin is better than chocolate, thus it is very inherently good.

What are the properties of cake that makes it inherently good? As opposed to "everyone likes it"