I disagree. It has very much engaged the Europeans. — Amity

Especially at the German elections, which rather upset both the acting administration and the opposition (only with the AfD cheering for the support they).

Well, perhaps European countries should start to root for the Democrats to take back their country from the threat of tyranny of Trump and Trump's efforts to dismantle the Republic. That I guess would warm the Atlantic ties, right?

People try still to be diplomatic and to work with the Trump government. That's the point here.

They are only making recommendations. — philosch

Really? Lol.

https://wolfstreet.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/11/US-government-TIC-2024-11-18-share.png

Just to give ONE example:

An air traffic controller told the Associated Press that workers affected at the FAA included radar, landing and navigational aid maintenance.

Spero said messages began arriving after 7 pm on Friday.

'We are troubled and disappointed by the administration’s decision to fire FAA probationary employees PASS represents without cause nor based on performance or conduct,' he said.

'Several hundred employees have been impacted with messages being sent from an ‘exec order’ Microsoft email address, not an official .gov email address.'

One FAA worker alleged he had been targeted because of comments he made about Musk's companies.

'Before I was fired, the official DOGE Facebook page started harassing me on my personal Facebook account after I criticized Tesla and Twitter,' Charles Spitzer-Stadtlander wrote on LinkedIn, describing how he was fired after midnight on Saturday.

'Less than a week later, I was fired, despite my position allegedly being exempted due to national security.'

The dismissals come at a critical time for the FAA, which already faced a shortage of controllers.

For years, officials have warned that overworked and understaffed air traffic control systems were an accident waiting to happen.

But you live in your dreamworld of DOGE just making "recomendations".

I'm not even a Trump supported per say, just don't like propaganda and agenda driven reporting on either side. — philosch

So the media shouldn't report on what Trump is doing by executive orders, not by following things as they are usually are done in a Republic with separation of powers?

Do notice, that many commentators do agree that there is waste. Here it's really about the method.

And where do you put the ideas of Canada being the 51st state or the US annexing Greenland, even possibly by force? Or how about the Mar-a-Gaza proposal?

- my prediction is that DOGE will come to be seen as the most egregious and idiotic blunder in the history of the government of the United States of America. — Wayfarer

Well, if you can or will save your Republic.

It can also seen as the shrewd radical way to dismantle government bureaucracy... as the Trumpists will hope it to be. Who cares that it doesn't go "by the book", Congress is the problem, right?

Because the way in a Republic, the thing would have gone like this: Trump would have made Elon and the other guy to look through government spending. They would do this for several months. Then they would forward their findings to the President, who then would approach the Congress to change the existing laws and spending by new legislation, that should pass both houses. And this would take time. Far more than the less than a month that now has gone. But this would be the case, if Trump and his followers would want the Republic to operate as the Constitution says.

But they don't. The don't give a fuck about the Constitution.

As I've said, the Republicans will embrace the separation of powers, the role of Congress and it's oversight and the fundamental structures of a Republic ONLY if they lose the Presidency. Yet otherwise they are totally happy in turning the President to the role of a Caesar. It's really remarkable as how it's playing out in the US compared to the history of Rome turning from the Republic to an autocracy. (Of course you simply cannot talk about Caeser or Augustus in the same level as Trump)

Yet the rules in a Republic sould be same for everybody, which ultimately shows that Trump-Republicans have absolutely no respect for the Constitution of for what a Republic stands for.

Every American who doesn't understand that the country is in a Constitutional crisis is either ignorant or simply doesn't care at all about their own Constitution.

Nothing — frank

History or reality begs to differ.

Monetary economics is something that people should know. It truly impacts everybody.

What? — frank

Think about it. If all the debt that you put out is bought by your own central bank, what will that mean to the dollar?

And by all means this isn't just about the US. Everybody is doing the same.

Think again where the public debt is.




Do notice, that already the largest owner of US treasury debt is the Central Bank itself. When that is the majority ownership, guess what happens at some instance?

Sorry about the break up. I hope the US and Europe can still be friends. — BitconnectCarlos

Me too, but this is the problem with populist foreign policy. I really would hope that this is just one low point between Europe and the US and things can get better. Sorry, if I'm too pessimistic.

Populism already starts with a juxtaposition of us against them, namely the "real people" against the "rich elite". That can easily be turned into prejudice, fear and hatred about foreigners.

Likely the door will be kept open, but unfortunately it does seem as the damage already has been done. The Europeans now know they cannot count on Trump being an ally.

Furthermore, do notice that the reason for European integration in the first place was WW1 and WW2 and the millions of dead Europeans from those two World Wars. Not just an idea of economic growth and trade agreements for the elites. Yes, unfortunately the integration process has been organized by bureaucrats in Brussells, but that doesn't refute the basic reasons for the integration process. Here if someone questions the territorial sovereignty of a nation state is like opening the Pandora's box. You will have in no time people hostile to each other. And Russia has gone over that border. I'm now in my summer place about 20 or so kilometers from the borders and it's totally empty with nothing moving over the border. That hit extremely hard this border community, but that doesn't matter at all as the stakes are far higher than any economic benefit there would be from trade.

The EU has a combined GDP of $22bn and Russia has around $4bn so I don't see why the countries of Europe can't band together to deter Russia. — BitconnectCarlos

Yes, but notice the real danger here. Once Europe does indeed get to the defense spending levels of 5% and that happens in a new institution outside NATO, what does that look like?

Let's just remember that the US and UK were allies during WW2. Still, the US had War plan Red in case of a war in the interwar years until as late as 1939. Quite similar in seriousness to the famous "War plan Orange".

That happens when two large countries aren't allies.

I think all large banks keep foreign currency reserves. — frank

Reserves of private banks aren't the same as the reserves kept by the central bank. Private banks use the given currency of the country, they don't have to worry about the current account.

Only in Russia the accounts of the private banks are also the accounts of the government. No really, even before Putin, it was like Gazprom financed the war in Chechnya during the Yeltsin era, because Gazprom had money and the Russian government didn't.

I'm not sure that if the US Navy goes to fight the Chinese, it will be solely financed by Merril Lynch or Chevron.

JD Vance’s speech to Europe’s elites was a dressing-down of the old establishment for their totalitarianism. In it he reiterated what he thought were the shared values of freedom, the ones both purported to fight for in the latter half of the last century, all of which seems to have disappeared in the next. — NOS4A2

Yeah.

Coming from an administration that itself is a word police erasing wrong words government website and punishes new agencies if the dare to talk about "Gulf of Mexico". Yet that isn't the ironic thing here, it's that an administration which doesn't care at all about the separation of powers and simply uses executive orders as coming from an absolute monarch then comes to preach about the freedom of speech with making overtures to the elections of specific countries.

So hell your freedom in JD Vance's speech, it doesn't have anything to do with freedom or democracy or what a republic and a justice state should stand for. Everything is just partisanship, supporting your party and there are no values at all, just beneficial and advantageous political positions. Only when it would be a democrat president, you would be for the limitation of executive power and giving back the Congress the role it has (assuming you would have majority there) and would be worried about the separation of powers or the independence of the courts. But when you have the power, you are voting to have the Caesar. Because evidently the Republic doesn't work.

And many, including my own president, made the correct conclusion of JD's scolding: this was far more for the American audience (people like you) than it was to engage Europeans.

Vance mentioned that the Romanian courts annulled the election and upended democracy when the populist candidate won, on the premise that Russian misinformation promoted him. — NOS4A2

And the elections are rescheduled for May. So your pro-Putin candidate can win then, if the Romanians really want him.

Former liberal leader Crin Antonescu, the candidate announced by the coalition formed by the Social Democratic Party, the National Liberal Party, and Hungarian minority party UDMR for the presidential elections, stated that far-right politician Călin Georgescu should be able to run in the upcoming elections. According to the schedule agreed by the ruling coalition leaders, the presidential elections should be held again in May.

How do Americans benefit from the dollar being used in global trade? — frank

How? You really don't know?

This is the problem. Because your whole system of debt spending relies on this!!!

You don't have to care about a possible current account crisis. You don't have to worry about foreign currency reserves. Here's an important part from the link above:

Common sense suggests that if a country fritters away its borrowed foreign funds on spending that yields no long-term productive gains, then its ability to repay—its basic solvency—might come into question. This is because solvency requires that the country be willing and able to generate (eventually) sufficient current account surpluses to repay what it has borrowed to finance the current account deficits.

Just think about it this way. Assume that your government needed money, but had to take a loan in euros, and only then changed this to dollars to pay salaries of government workers or to pay social security. Well, evidently the government would have to then to pay that loan back in euros, and you would have to have a foreign currency reserve. Now if you would then just do what you do now, print money, and take that debt from the central bank, this would weaken the dollar. Then those euro-debt would rise in value and be an even bigger problem. You aren't in charge of euros, the ECB is.

But as your dollar is the reserve currency, you don't have to give a fuck about this. You can always print more dollars! Because crucial things like oil are bought and sold in US dollars, even by third party countries. Because they are OK with this, because of the whole goddam "international ruled based order", which your brain dead president is now trying to destroy, because somehow it's bad for you.

So don't think it's just the awesomeness of the US economy, it's basically what your greatest generation gave to you by winning WW2 and being the only major country around that wasn't bombed to shit. Keynes tried to talk some role for the pound or the idea of Bancor, but no, it would be the US dollar as the reserve currency.

And this is why you should understand that when Putin or Xi Jinping talk about the unfair edge given to the dollar, it's a direct attack against the US.

Why Putin loves gold. They have that in Russia too, and you cannot print it.

Which is in line with the domestic political policy, particularly via DOGE. The policy is not one of reform, it's one of revolution. And it's possible the people who provide the philosophical underpinnings of this revolution (who do not include Trump himself) do not actually envision rebuilding any of the things that are being torn apart. — Echarmion

Since Trump basically is incapable of getting laws through, he just goes with executive orders. Just ask yourself: what legislation did he get through last time? The tax cuts were basically a thing done by the GOP with Trump giving only the signature. So he will go with executive orders and with DOGE, which has absolutely no legal basis. And Elon knows this. Hence the extreme hurry with the revolution... as the case of firing those responsible of nuclear weapons showed. Or that when the USAID assistance to Mozambique was to a place there called "Gaza", then we got this ludicrous idea of condoms being sent to Hamas. But hey, it's a great tweet and Trumpist will share it!

It all comes down to seeing the US government itself as the enemy of the American people. Nothing else explains this better. Anarcho-libertarianism at it's worst. Or anarcho-libertarianism as the figleaf for a naked power grab. And notice just how many nowdays refer to the richers people as "oligarchs" in the US. Actually that was earlier not so popular.

And when nobody will stop him and the Congress won't raise a finger when obviously it's position is severely undermined, Trump will continue. Today you have a Congress of pundits fearful of Trump's retaliation, while Democrats are totally ignored. That's what you get with decades of gerrymandering.

I’m wondering if the result of the US - Russia conference will amount to the US walking away from supporting Ukraine. — Wayfarer

It can happen. Even is likely. At worst, Trump can walk out of NATO if he feels like it.

I think James Ker-Lindsay put it quite well.

Trump is lazy and intellectually lazy. He will want a deal quick and if it's then Ukraine saying no and Europeans saying something else, he might just walk away from everything. Personally I think Trump's fixation with Putin and his hate of woke Europeans will prevail. He truly doesn't see any importance at NATO. Trump is totally incapable of understanding that he is giving Americas foes the best birthday present ever by dismantling the Superpower status of the US.

Who are the foes and friends here is blurred with the Trump administration, because Trump himself doesn't think about the issue.

JD Vance's Trumpian speech at Munich, which likely was more for the Fox News listeners back at home, does show the rift here. That an administration which itself is banning the use of words and punishing organizations that don't use the term "Gulf of America" is here scolding and reprimanding of Europe and saying that Europe is forgetting free speech and that is a bigger threat than Russia. Or Pete Hegseth apparently totally incapable of answering a question if Russia also has to make concessions in the peace negotiations, but was quick to give away Ukraine's negotiating positions even before the negotiations is telling.

The NATO alliance was beneficial to both sides. — Tobias

Perhaps the past tense is apt here.

But seems that many Americans really aren't seeing what is happening here.

Of course they did. They supported the dollar as world currency, they supported the US arms industry with billions in orders, their greatest scientists went to US universities and they rhetorically backed US interventions. — Tobias

Americans don't seem to understand how much of their prosperity did come from role that the US dollar was given and how much their role in the global arena was based on allies and soft power. They just assume that because of the awesomeness of the US the dollar is used as globally reserve currency. First and foremost, one doesn't need a reserve currency. One can have a basket of currencies and the foreign exchange market is to handle. Not having a reserve currency has been the standard for nearly all of history. It's an exception that has benefited the US for a long time.

And with those alliances the US the military-industrial complex has prospered hugely. Now if that alliance is called into question, Europe will not buy arms from an entity, that it cannot be sure will be there to give possible needed supplies. US has become instantly a very questionably source. Yes, Europe will increase it's defense spending, already defense spending is put to be not included in budgetary and debt limits. But this is because the US cannot be trusted and those euros will go into building up the European defense industry.

I think there's no example in history where a leader of a prominent country voluntary gives his power away to his enemies breaks up the alliance system which earlier it has worked so much for.

Should we expect the Putin excuse-makers and apologists soon? — jorndoe

As Trump is doing the bidding for Putin, they don't have to.

Trump is likely impatient to get the "peace agreement" on Ukraine as he promised, which totally plays for Putin. Ukraine has to do concessions, Putin, his dear friend, doesn't. Simply put it, Putin can simply continue the war. Bully Trump won't put Putin any limits, but he has the ability to threaten Ukraine.

Hopefully European leaders get their act up as they are now meeting in Paris. They have to understand (and likely do understand, but won't say it) that the Superpower status of the US just ended and Russia is achieving it's greatest victory. The US is run now by a president whose power has gone to his head and hapless weak dicks that will ruin American leadership and status in this World.

Jesus. No wonder the country is broke. — NOS4A2

Your country isn't broke from 22 million dollars. Not even the 40 billion. It's the mandatory part plus the interest on the debt. Not the discretionary side.

Oh sorry, I mean the United States of America. You are living in Canada, right, so it's not your country.

It’s called diplomacy, — NOS4A2

:rofl:

Nothing close to diplomacy. In diplomacy you engage the sides, not leave them out and decide on yourself. And the attempts on war-profiteering are made by Trump. This is Trump's at what he does best: makes lousy deals.

So Trump will meet his dear cherished friend Vlad and they will make then a suggestion, which Trump will then try to force Zelenskyi to accept or face punishment.

Sure, hopefully there is enough spine in Europe not to leave the Ukrainians alone. At least there's support here. I know some that have fought in Ukraine. I salute them, they are real heroes.

Assisting in the victory of Putin will play only to Putin and the Chinese. What a weak dick loser Trump is.

Oh I found it myself. Zelenskyi publicly stated how he rejected the Trumpian nonsense:

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said Saturday, February 15, he blocked a Donald Trump-led deal that would give the US access to vast amounts of Ukrainian natural resources as it lacked "security guarantees" for Kyiv and "does not protect us." Zelensky's announcement came a day after Ukrainian officials gave the US a draft of the agreement and three days after Trump called Russia's Vladimir Putin, with Europe and Kyiv alarmed the pair will try to end the conflict without them. Trump, a businessman leader highly critical of the money Washington has sent to Ukraine to fight Russia's invasion, has pushed for access to rare earths in Ukraine.

So now we know. Trump would hand over Ukraine if he would get rare earths of Ukraine (or something). Putin will happily give his sidekick that.

The Western elan of exporting democracy and universal human rights to the Rest is transmogrifying more and more into importing authoritarianism and despise for universal human rights from the Rest. The irony. — neomac

I would correct that to "The American elan". The Republicans are happily cheering to this. They will remember things in democracy like the separation of powers and corruption only if a democrat is the President. As if they lacking any morals.

Seems that the dividing line starts to be Russia-Trump vs Ukraine & Europe.

Because it likely is worse than I thought.

Trump has proposed American ownership of some of Ukraine's rare earth mineral deposits, and wants to send American troops to stake these claims. — Metaphysician Undercover

Do you have something for reference on this?

It's like selling the house for way under the market value, but then arguing that you benefit greatly from the "deal", because the new house owner accepted that you can use the lawnmower. :vomit:

Musk’s misinterpretation went viral, amplified by Trump as proof of corrupt ties between the “radical left” media and the “deep state.” — Washington Post

Not the first time when Trump finds "waste", "the deepstate" and "lousy agreements" from the decisions his own previous administration did. But who cares about the little things as those...

Now we might need to take another look at Ukraine's independence. Trump and Putin are in the midst of dividing it between themselves. We'll see how that works out. — Metaphysician Undercover

And I would be very happy if I'm wrong and it won't be as bad. Giving up on Putin and giving Putin everything, Trump can be the largest weak dick ever that has been on the US presidency. Because Trump isn't dividing anything to himself. What is he dividing for himself? He will be the biggest surrender monkey in all of history if he goes along with Putin as Neville Chamberlain had far more backbone than Trump. You see, Neville did declare war with Germany later.



But then again, he might just have a photo-op with Putin and then do the right thing and not cave in.

I don't think he'll intentionally pick Russia over UK. The net result would be the same, because of the trust issue - and his stupidity. — Relativist

In days gone by, he didn't have the power to summon Putin-the-powerful.
Now he does, both, and revels in it? — jorndoe

Few things. First about deals, Putin can immediately give him deals (read bribes) or hints of deals which Starmer cannot absolutely do. Dictators can do that. The Prime Minister of UK isn't a dictator, so Trump has a problem with that. This is why he truly can make deals with the Gulf States and Saudi-Arabia, and they surely will play along with that.

Then this mess about personal relations, personal likings and opinions. First of all, what Trump seems to totally forget is that he is the representative of his country, he's not talking as himself. Yet he is talking as he would as a media personality, not the representative of the US about the US policy. Others aren't so direct because of this, but does Trump care, no.

Let's just forget this absolute horse manure of this being a "negotiating tactic" or "4D Chess". It's simple: power simply has gone to Trump's head. He really means what he says. He truly would want to enlarge the territory of the US into Greenland, into Panama. Even to have some kind of arrangement of that wonderful Mediterranean beachfront territory named Gaza strip, without the annoying Palestinians that should go somewhere else. This is what this old man thinks, these are his true objectives. The only "negotiating tactic" is that if he cannot get these territories want he wants, he gets something else. Yet the objective is territorial expansion. There is no hiding of this truth. And this defines everything that Trump is about and what he does. Trump's total ignorance or basically hatred of a "rules based international order" can be understood from this point of view, because all those rules are in his way.

It sounds totally ridiculous, but it isn't. Republicans can attempt to waive off this as acting as in WWE Pro Wrestling, where Vince McMahon puts a sideshow to the wrestling with insane twist plots and always, always stays in character where the fictional character and reality come together. It's a show, even if accidents happen. Yet it's no coincidence that Trump has gotten into the show:



After all, it's World Wrestling Entertainment. Well, international relations isn't entertainment. It's deadly serious. And people will listen to the US president as talking the official line of the state of United States. And territorial annexations or even the talk of them are the Pandora's box that will quickly poison the atmosphere.

Diplomats are diplomatic for a very serious reason as relationship between sovereign nation states can easily sour. Hatred and mistrust can be easily created and hence the act of being "diplomatic". Foreign leaders usually try avoiding commenting the internal politics of another country. But that diplomacy can be then put aside. At some level, being "diplomatic" is stretched too much and the politician has to start to think about his or her domestic appearance. And then the gloves come off.

Secondly, the issue of Trump meeting Putin and possibly making a surrender treaty like with the Taleban in Doha:

The Polish foreign minister summed up quite well the situation in Munich yesterday, when he was asked what he would to tell Trump. Sikorsky responded, as the Polish are quite straight forward:

Biden was your successor and predecessor, but he planted the US flag in downtown Kyiv and declared on behalf of the United States that the US will be with Ukraine as long as it takes until Ukraine secures it's independence. Therefore, the credibility of the United States depends on how this war ends, not just the Trump administration, the United States itself. I would secondly tell him (Trump) that if you allow Putin to vasalize Ukraine, that will send a message to China that you can recover what you regard as a renegade province.

Sikorsky also mentioned that European control the Nobel Peace prize (which Trump, the man of peace, surely wants) and got laughs for that. Yet his statement was very clear about just what it as stake here. This seems to be missing for many Americans that consider that "Ukraine isn't unimportant and is a costly sideshow" or the kind of "forever war" that basically is done only for the military industrial complex or just go along with Trump.

With Trump acting like Trump, the US Superpower status is in a tailspin. I'm afraid that this will continue just like it has now. Some might argue that it's going to be just four years or until a heart attack of an old man, but the damage has been done. There can always come another Trump or the continuation of this hostile attitudes against the allies and basically total lack of understanding how the position of the US has depended on alliances. Just like if Russia would have a revolution tomorrow and Putin would be ousted like Assad and a pro-Western government would be formed there wished to approach the West, there would always be the doubt of how long the Westernizers are in power before the Putinist return. That change takes really decades and a real effort from the people themselves, just as with the Germans.

My take on it is that Trump has no favorites, which means he feels exactly the same about the UK or France as he does about Russia or China. — Relativist

Lol. :lol:

Seems you don't follow Trump when he sees Putin or see his "allies". Oh, he has favorites.

Trust me, when he believes Vladimir Putin more than his own American intelligence services, that tells something. Now he wants to have Russia (and Putin) back on the G7 (making it again G8). And he is constantly talking to Putin and now meeting him to talk about Ukraine, not with Zelenskyi. And he never says any slightest critique about Putin. Never. The guy has an abnormal fascination on Putin, starting when he tweeted that would Putin be his new friend when hosting a Beauty peasant competition, Miss Universe, in Moscow. Putin didn't see him back then... back then he was a not important.

Some expected him to announce a massive withdrawal of troops from Europe. That didn't happen. Yet. — frank

Trump is the only declaring anything in this administration. But it's great days for Russia and China as Trump is rapidly eroding the US position.

(South China Morning Post, 4th February 2025) US President Donald Trump’s spending freeze for the United States Agency for International Development (USAID) could allow China to fill the resultant gap under the aegis of its Belt and Road Initiative, analysts said.

The 12-year-old initiative provides low-interest loans for highways, ports and power plants in scores of developing countries – many of which are also recipients of funding from USAID, an agency whose operations Trump halted this week.

Countries reliant on the 64-year-old aid programme may turn to China for support or other concessional investments in infrastructure projects – unless China offers first.

“There is a vacuum,” said Sharif Naubakhar, a professor of public policy at the Hong Kong University of Science and Technology. “Even though the belt and road is not aid, it is infrastructure, it is energy, clean water.”

China would be a “winner” of the USAID closure as it seeks “access to vital resources abroad” and tries to “build alliances that are not in US national interests”, said Cornell University applied economics and policy professor Christopher Barrett in a statement on Monday.

Economically troubled Bangladesh is likely to be among the first to approach China if USAID pulls out, according to a January 29 analysis by the Council on Foreign Relations, a US think tank.

Trump really wants to please both the leaders of Russia and China.

Fusing defence industries would favour the rise of military-industrial complex lobby which may the necessary step to build a valid political and military deterrence against hostile powers. It’s also economically important to preserve a unite and dynamic market and technological development to compensate for the demographic and morale decay of spoiled Europeans. — neomac

And that's the issue that should be done. But there are good prospects for this. Assuming there's the will to do it. Just take for example drone warfare:



Europe has totally the ability to bypass American arms manufacturing and not be dependent on the whims of the American president.

Vicepresident Vance gave a speech, well a scolding lecture, where he told Europeans that their threat isn't external, but basically their "pinko-liberalism" and the threat to free speech (from an administration that is defining words not to be officially used). Basically an endorsement for the AfD, just like Musk.

Here's the response from the German Defense Minister. He had a planned another speech, but had to reply to Vance. Notice that he answers to Vance in German (4 min), then continues with English the prepared speech. Worth listening to the rest of the speech (which could be in the Ukraine thread).

Just because I'm uncomfortable with something doesn't mean that I oppose it. — BitconnectCarlos

Tells a lot. So you are uncomfortable with ethnic cleansing, but think it's an OK thing to do.

Sometimes I toy with the idea that certain cultures just ought to be vanquished on behalf of their own wickedness. — BitconnectCarlos

Then you have absolutely no problem of understanding Nazi ideology, because that's the way exactly how they thought. Some may have been "uncomfortable" in the process, but hey, the end justifies the means.

I'll just end here with that I'm categorically against your thinking. There are ample examples that once conflicts are over, people can adapt to peace. Yet then it's a military that is vanquished, or a political movement that has ended up in failure. Not a culture. The idea of perpetual war between "cultures" is a strange and dubious idea, because in the end you are talking of people that basically just want to live their life. I think your view of the "wickedness of some cultures" is one of the most dangerous in this World and will spread destruction and death in further conflicts. Because military conflict isn't seen as an extension or outcome of political disagreement, but a way to attack whole people constituting a culture. The objectives are war aren't as Clausewitz put them, but something of the lines of the Roman saying: "Create a desert and call it peace". If ethnic cleansing is OK, it isn't a big leap to genocide.

Yep, some new member would be immediately banned.

Interesting and well-written perspectives? What’s the thread coming to?

Anyway — how seriously do we take anything Trump says? Words and posturing matter, given the US’s stature, but I can’t see Trump allowing Russia to annex Ukrainian territory and permanently shelving NATO membership — which is likely be non-negotiable aspects of any settlement. Hegseth has asked already walked back statements re: NATO. — Mikie

Which btw just shows how poor Hegseth is as secretary of defense as first impressions matter. That your first thing you say to NATO members you have to walk back tells a lot. But perhaps it's the genius of Trump. Maybe Trump just wants his underlings to parrot his talking points... perhaps make them more coherent and thoughtful.

Yet the damage is done. Hardly anyway now to think that this card, possible Ukraine NATO option, could be put on the table again. Why it was so damning, to say that Ukraine won't be a member state, is because it goes against the idea of NATO's article 10:

The Parties may, by unanimous agreement, invite any other European State in a position to further the principles of this Treaty and to contribute to the security of the North Atlantic area to accede to this Treaty. Any State so invited may become a Party to the Treaty by depositing its instrument of accession with the Government of the United States of America. The Government of the United States of America will inform each of the Parties of the deposit of each such instrument of accession.

Any European State ought to be capable of joining if it meets the criteria. Already from article 10 we can see that it's really complicated for Ukraine to become a member, but saying it aloud is just giving Putin what he wants.

You might think that this is a tiny issue. It isn't, it truly isn't.

When Putin demanded that Russia ought to have a say what members are accepted to NATO and what not, that was the red line for Finland. By this demand Putin put Finland to immediately to start the process of joining NATO membership and Finland pushed also to Sweden to seek the membership. And it went through the Parliament with vast majority once the conventional invasion of Ukraine started.

You see, we were happy to wiggle around without being in NATO and having only an option to join NATO. Give us a space to wiggle, we Finns will wiggle, but take that wiggle space away and put us into a corner, we are far worse than the famous cornered rat. Ask Stalin how annoying we can be. With this demand Putin only showed the corner and that was enough for the Finnish leadership.

Perhaps politicians will not take seriously everything what Trump say, but they simply cannot think that it's all bullsh 4D-Chess playing. Perhaps Trump just wanted to give the middle finger to outgoing Trudeau with his talk of Canada become part of the US. But those kinds of "gestures" do have effects. There is a reason for diplomats being "diplomatic".

That would sound more promising. But once NATO is gone and won't be replaced by some comparable EU collective defence, not sure if the EU will survive. Imagine if countries like Hungary or whatever that swim in the other direction, will continue to do it also aver security matters e.g. by hosting Russian military bases. — neomac

Only Trump can really end NATO. I think Europeans have still a love affair with NATO and when Trump is against it and hates it, it will be there for the Europeans as this organization from a more peaceful past. Likely it will exist as an option, if the US notices the mistake it's making and will come back. But still, Trump hasn't left Europe.

What is likely to happen that Europe will rearm... with European arms. Likely event what Trump with all his hostility will make is that US arms industry will suffer a lot in the future. After all, the US cannot be trusted, so why would you then buy weapons from there?

But you are right that the way of appeasement might indeed what many countries will opt. Russia's objective is to have the ability to approach every European country individually as then it is in the position of strength. And that's why Putin absolutely hates the EU and NATO and the dissolution of the two is his goal.

I've been hammering on the EU leaving NATO since then as the only reliable way forward for our security. — Benkei

EU isn't part of NATO. Remember Ireland and Austria, Benkei. And Sweden and Finland haven't been long in

And even EU might be far too cumbersome. The European family is just too big to work as a team. There will be always some country like Hungary or whatever, that swims in the other direction. Far better is simply a loose but working coalition of countries. NATO countries around the Baltic and the North Sea would be a great start.

Like we, uh, actually have already where both of our countries are operating: the JEF

The JEF is a coalition of ten like-minded nations (Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Iceland, Latvia, Lithuania, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, UK), comprising high readiness forces configured to respond rapidly to crises. It can integrate into larger international operations such as those led by NATO, the UN or other security coalitions and can conduct the full spectrum of operations. It enhances the deterrence messaging of NATO and provides agile, credible and capable forces in support of JEF Participant Nation interests.

Basically JEF was a move to make non-NATO Sweden and Finland to co-operate in the defense of the Baltics, yet the emphasis should be in creating deterrence, not having a forum to talk. There are enough of those. Like minded nations is the key. What actual important player missing is Poland, because Poland is going to have one serious military in the future. France and Germany? Well, the EU has been lead by those two nations and Germany seems not to capable of taking defense seriously.

Others? Now I don't have anything Spain or Spaniards and well understand that the security environment next to the volatile North Africa put's Spains focus totally somewhere else. And it's understandable (as the country actually has territory in Africa).

Russia has released 1 or 2 American prisoners. — BitconnectCarlos

Don't forget that Putin said that he wouldn't have invaded Russia if Trump would have been POTUS. (If you believe that, I guess you're the someone that people should sell real estate in Florida...)

I have no issue with Ukraine defending their borders, but it was getting quite expensive for us here in the US. I don't mind if Europe picks up the slack on the funding. The conflict seems fairly far removed from us here in the US. — BitconnectCarlos

Europe seems fairly far removed removed from you there.

If Mexico or Canada were to join an anti-US alliance or if Russia were to station its troops in either of those two border countries it would be alarming so their concern is understandable. Europe should be able to hand this one. — BitconnectCarlos

Right, so when you would have Russian forces on your borders, that would be alarming for you. So I guess not much else would alarm you. Only then it would be useful to find somewhere the old and dusty WARPLAN RED for invading Canada.

Let's think about this from another angle. So you've been with someone for many decades and find that actually, you want some space, need to go alone for a while and be on your own. Now what do you call it? I guess the term usually used would be 'brake up'. Fine, these things happen. Yet, do you really think that it won't have an effect on your relationship with this someone? Everything will be just fine and dandy like this. Or if you would need this someone, she or he will be there to continue as if nothing happened.

Simply put it: appeasing your enemies that think you are an existential threat for them and then bitching to your allies and telling they don't matter and you aren't going to be there for them, simply isn't a winning strategy. Just why emboldening your enemies and alienating your friends will work, I don't know.

Yet I guess it works well when you have the right mix of delusional aspirations and ignorance.

This doesn't seem to be, as is often the case, a conflict between America and Europe; but appears to be a fundamental rupture. — Benkei

Nobody officially wants to talk about this, but it's obvious that now the security environment of Europe is rapidly changing. Trump is really doing a monumental change in Europe as many countries have truly rested their defense and security on NATO and international cooperation.

Just as Trump doesn't have a clue on the Palestinian history of the "Naqba", he doesn't understand that many Palestinians were fooled to seek refuge somewhere else as the war (of 1948) was fought and thought they could come back as the fighting has ended. Since Trump has confused the Baltic and the Balkans, thought that Finland is part of Russia etc, it's no wonder that he can come up with such delusional ideas as the Mar-a-Gaza solution. And similarly he can easily think that there's no problem with him and Vlad having a chat on what sphere belongs to whom. Why would he care about territorial sovereignty, about the little countries in Europe? After all, likely he doesn't know what Molotov-Ribbentrop pact meant for many countries. Hence when Trump in Saudi-Arabia decides things with his friend, Putin, and then (likely) announces the things for Ukraine to take it or be the real problem in the conflict, he likely won't understand what this will mean.

In fact, your country is the perfect example of this, because for Netherlands Atlanticism and the EU have been the cornerstone of your defense policy. The country has solely relied on NATO even with being surrounded by allies all around and this has been in historical terms a very peculiar arrangement, where sovereign states have voluntarily given their defense policy to a treaty pact. Yet it still during the Cold War Netherlands a large army and conscription. (And actually still have the latter, even if after 1997 the compulsory requirement for conscription has ended.) Now this security agreement obviously has to be reformed. Trump isn't a bug, it's a feature in US policy and Europe simply cannot rely on the US to be there, even for it to understand how important for itself is to have all the European countries as it's allies. The talk of the US leaving NATO has been a theoretical possibility, but now is becoming a genuine possibility. Perhaps the country that truly feels things changing is Denmark, which has been a loyal NATO member. Needless to say, no politician wants to talk about this idea from Trump.

Meanwhile, Trump’s followers seem to idolize him, but he is proving to be an exceptionally weak leader and a shitty negotiator. — Benkei

Remember Brexit. The British are usually sane and informed people, aren't they? At least more informed than the average American (people here are far more informed). Yet Brexit happens and the Brexiteers were cheering for all that freedom they would enjoy after breaking the shackles of Brussels. Same as with the Brexiteers: do they care about the real negotiations and the real economy going south? Nope! They are mesmerized from the fact that Brexit went through. And so does Trump's second term look for the Trumpists. Trump is a cult. You have now freed Jan 6th rioters telling that they will die for Trump, if they have to. Every negative thought or remark is just Trump derangement syndrome.

And if people think, "Well, it’s just Ukraine," then I think we need to remember that in December 2021, Russia issued an ultimatum demanding the withdrawal of NATO troops from Eastern Europe. — Benkei

Yep. Russia will be on the roll when Trump puts them on that course.

And you cannot make this up, it's so hilarious:

Remember when Trump ridiculed the idea of tanks running on electric motors as obvious woke nonsense? See here starting at 1:00:



And now, the Defense Department is buying 400 million worth of "electric armoured vehicles" from Tesla. :rofl:

And uh oh, as that doesn't look good, so they ditched the "Tesla" and just use a generic term, but who on Earth thinks there's going to be any bidding process. Those contracts are the reason Elon is so interested in working at the White House. :wink:

(The Guardian, 13th Feb 2025)The US Department of State has removed the name “Tesla” from a list of planned purchases, after an earlier version of the list said it would spend $400m buying new electric armoured vehicles, even as the carmaker’s boss, Elon Musk, leads efforts to slash government spending under Donald Trump.

A procurement forecast produced by the department showed the $400m (£320m) proposed spending on “armoured Tesla (production units)” in December. The most likely Tesla model was the Cybertruck, the company’s electric pickup, given Musk’s claims that the vehicle is bulletproof.

However, a spokesperson for the department said the document was incorrect, and should have been a generic entry reading “electric vehicle manufacturer”. The department said the order was on hold.

Nevertheless, the listing raises the possibility of more conflicts of interest for Musk, who is one of the biggest beneficiaries of US government contracts through the companies he controls.

And as Elon's Tesla cars are facing hard times as it is now a political statement to buy a Tesla, Elon surely will need those government contracts for sure!

Another day in Corruptoland...

I'm as uncomfortable with forced deportation as anyone. — BitconnectCarlos

Really? Are you? So you oppose the Trump Mar-a-Gaza plan?

So you would be pro-Israel if all the dead were men who were involved in 10/7 or Hamas members? What of Hamas members who weren't involved in 10/7? Would those be valid targets? — BitconnectCarlos

Usually in war it's the combatants that one fights. Yet not all the dead are Hamas members and not all buildings destroyed in Gaza were military positions were Hamas fought from.

Doubt would be good here. Look at how brilliantly it well the peace deal he made in Afghanistan went. Then also the Republic of Afghanistan was totally sidelined and truly given a stab in the back. And btw some Afghans that worked for the US and did get the chance to flee Taleban rule might now be sent back to Afghanistan.

Afghans who fled their home country after the Taliban’s return to power in 2021 are pleading for the United States to reconsider a decision cancelling all existing refugee resettlement efforts.

On Wednesday, reactions continued to pour in against an executive order Trump had signed two days prior, on his first day in office.That order called for the suspension of the US Refugee Admissions Program (USRAP), which processes refugees for resettlement in the country, starting on January 27. All applications and arrivals through the programme have likewise been suspended.

But the sudden halt to USRAP has left Afghan refugees — many already approved to enter the US — in limbo, facing instability and the threat of violence.

At least the last time the US lost a war, it didn't send back South Vietnamese refugees to the Communists. But that was then and now it's different with Trump.

Last I checked, his supporters wanted him to address high prices and immigration while downplaying the possibility he'd do the rest. — Mr Bee

He's doing a brilliant job in keeping prices high and making them higher.

The January 2025 Consumer Price Index (CPI) report surprised to the upside, as the headline figure rose by 0.5% month-over-month (MoM) and core CPI (excluding food and energy) rose by 0.4% month over month.

These monthly gains have led to a modest firming in the year-over-year (YoY) rates, bringing the headline CPI to 3% YoY and core CPI to 3.3% YoY.

But Trump can surely get the prices up from just 3%. I'm sure he will get that inflation higher. After all, he promised you higher prices, more taxes on what you buy!

That's what you so much wanted, right?

What really doesn't sound good is idiot Trump meeting Putin in Saudi-Arabia. Guess next he'll meet with Putin in the US. Because, why not.

U.S. President Donald Trump said Wednesday he expects to see his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin in Saudi Arabia for their first meeting since the Republican took office.

Trump made the remarks following an almost 90-minute phone conversation with Putin in which the two leaders discussed ending Moscow’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine.

“We ultimately expect to meet. In fact, we expect that he'll come here, and I'll go there, and we're gonna meet also probably in Saudi Arabia the first time, we'll meet in Saudi Arabia, see if we can get something something done,”

Actually a great move from the Saudi leadership. What do they care about European problems, but likely with this move they appease enough Trump, because hell no they will do anything on the braindead Trump suggestion of ethnic cleansing of Palestinians added with seaside property development. So better to give a stage for Trump to think about something else.

At worst, Trump's going to fuck this up too like he did with the Taleban. I fear it's going to be like in Helsinki last time. Then it really was like the Soviet leader (Putin) meeting the leader of East Germany or some satellite nation of the Soviet Union. It was so crazy and the craziness just deepens.

— hypothetical news headline — jorndoe

Trump really should think about selling California. All those Democrats leaving the Union would be absolutely great for him! All those liberals with their DEI stuff, ugh! All good Republicans have already moved to Texas, so why not? California just has brush fires and nasty democrats. A Great Deal for Trump!

But seriously. There really is the possibility we can witness the self-inflicted collapse of the last Superpower. Basically European countries doing first what France did and then simply NATO and the Atlantic tie is between Canada and the EU. And then NATO is something like CENTO or SEATO. Sounds absolutely crazy, but we live in crazy times.

Hegseth just threw Ukraine under the bus. Who needs enemies when there's the USA? — Benkei

On another note... When someone pushes for peace, not by stopping the attacker, but by stopping the defender, then something's amiss. — jorndoe

Well, there has been always the possibility that Trump will fuck it up as he did with the surrender deal to the Taleban where he did through Afghanistan (and other allies like NATO) under the bus. (Yet in truth he needed Biden to finish up it to be a total catastrophe, so Trump isn't there the only one to blame.) The worst case is that general Kellog, who would be a competent negotiator, is pushed aside and Trump wants to "be in charge" of the negotiations. And then we will get something as the idiotic braindead Mar-a-Gaza . Putin knows how to stroke Trumps ego well enough (with saying the lie that with Trump he wouldn't have invaded Ukraine).

Yet that's a possibility still, not what has already happened. But surely a thing that the pro-Russian Putin supporters will drool on.

Already Trump is giving away the bargaining chips and the fact is that Russia would negotiate in earnest for a peace/ceasefire deal only when there would be the possibility of military defeat. Otherwise it's a negotiation of getting something they couldn't otherwise win. In any other situation, the war continues and Putin doesn't give a shit about negotiations.

The fact is that Russia is very limited in it's capability to make large scale attacks into Ukraine. Ukraine can hang on. That is of course, if Ukraine gets military support.

More reason for Europe to really wake up.

Yet that it's a new situation is obvious. New situation, new ideas:

Hobbes can safely be considered "conservative" in his call for Monarchy as the best kind of government. — Paine

One should remember the context of Hobbes, who lived through the English Civil War and saw how Commonwealth of England performed with it's lord Protector, Oliver Cromwell, at it's helm (even if in exile). As a teacher of Charles II, he might have personal experiences and relations (people that he was with) that made him think like this.

They will probably only try to unwind some of DoE's enforcement mandates and side programs. — Count Timothy von Icarus

Anything even close to reeking to DEI or something like that has to naturally go.

And, while reforms to the student loan process would be welcome, simply revoking access to credit overnight won't work. It would have a massive effect on the university system and leave people part-way through degrees stranded, curtailing the supply of new doctors, engineers, etc. So, I imagine they will have to tread much more carefully here. — Count Timothy von Icarus

I'm not so sure just how careful they will be. One thing is simply is privatization. Can the services that the Department of Education gives be sold to the private sector? I can vision how this goes: the whole system is "wasteful" as there are so many federal employees working in the system handling these issues. So can everything be then outsourced? Can a company from the private sector do all this? That is the idea and then it's not part of government. Ah, the savings, the cutting down of waste and smaller government!

You might find that it’s actually quite difficult to incite people to do anything, let alone something illegal.

That’s because the whole theory of incitement is magical thinking top-to-bottom. It is physically impossible to animate someone with your words and to suggest that one can is tantamount to sorcery. — NOS4A2

Impossible? So, according to you it is impossible to incite people to do something illegal? Well, there are many examples of this magical sorcery (according to you) in history, as @Count Timothy von Icarus already mentioned.

During the 1994 genocide in Rwanda, observers emphasized the role of media propaganda in inciting Rwandan Hutus to attack the Tutsi minority group, with one claiming that the primary tools of genocide were “the radio and the machete.” As a steady stream of commentators referred to “radio genocide” and “death by radio” and “the soundtrack to genocide,” a widespread consensus emerged that key responsibility for the genocide lay with the Rwandan media. Mathias Ruzindana, prosecution expert witness at the ICTR, supports this notion, writing, “In the case of the 1994 genocide in Rwanda, the effect of language was lethal . . . hate media . . . played a key role in the instigation of genocide.” Legal precedents from the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda (ICTR) solidified this view as doctrine, finding that certain public statements by Hutu political leaders and RTLM radio broadcasts constituted direct and public incitement to commit genocide against ethnic Tutsis.

Well, Ur-Trumper Steve Bannon has already had his ire raised and proclaimed that Musk should be "deported back to Africa." — Count Timothy von Icarus

With USAID the Trump supporters can be enthusiastic. I can fully relate that in Finland too: one certain crowd would be very happy if ALL developmental aid for Third World countries would be ditched by my country. And when Elon and his happy wrecking crew comes close to things that actually some Americans like and need, then it's going to be quite different.

The next thing will be if the department of education is axed. This is a very popular topic in libertarian and Republican circles, even before Trump. To abolish the department has been actually tried many times, but Congressional approval for that might be tricky. Elon being this crazy billionaire with an ax might simply cut off funding or severely limited it. Yet here's the issue: if it's the Federal government wanting to limit it's role and off-loading things to the states, that's just basically an internal role change. But as Elon's issue is to "cut waste", then just what will be cut will have effects in the US, not in Africa as with the case of USAID. And here the transfer of such authority to the states will likely not get at all any thought from the demolishing team that DOGE is. As if they would listen to the "Deep State", the enemy, in this issue. The effects can be a disaster, which some Trump voters with children might notice later.

“The promise to dismantle the Department of Education has gotten the most headlines, but other promises are more likely to happen – and happen more quickly and be more impactful,” Welner says.

“Scrapping the Department of Education would be chaotic, complicated, and it would surely result in damage to the smooth running of important programs for K-12 students and those at colleges and universities. But moving people and programs from the Department of Education to other departments doesn’t in itself change what the federal government does. It’s those other proposals that change what the government does that are likely to be more impactful.”

Mike J. Sosulski, president of Washington College in Maryland, says the Education Department demonstrated a lack of communication and responsiveness under the previous Trump administration, which he worries could resume.

“It seems that the Trump administration's approach last time, under Secretary of Education Betsy DeVos, was to simply not fill many of the posts in the agency,” he says. “So the result of that was when members of the National Association of Independent Colleges and Universities would attempt to contact people in the DOE, oftentimes there really wasn't anyone to speak to the way there used to be under the Obama administration. And all administrations prior to that, actually, since the inception of the agency.”

See What Happens if the Education Department Is Dissolved?

So one can ask for starters, are there things like a need to have any coordination between the states on educational programs? If not, absolutely not, then it might not be so bad. I still think there are indeed things to be coordinated at the federal level, like that the education given in one state for lets say college level is similar with another state and it's colleges. I think that was the whole reason for the department to exist in the first place, not for poor regions to have far worse educational systems than more prosperous areas.

There goes the goodwill that people feel for the US and are thankful for. And seems like both Jordan and Egypt have said no to Trump's insane "Mar-a-Gaza" ethnic cleansing plan.