:P Hopefully it stays okay for the rest of the day lol. — Lone Wolf

I have faith it will be okay!

For some strange reason, this morning isn't as bad as normal mornings — Lone Wolf

8-) That Rocks!

As much as Medical Cannabis is dismissed, so are the 'unintended consequences' that happens when the overall population has safe access to the drug.

An unintended consequence of the USA's new approach to the Opioid epidemic, even though I have discussed it at length with my Doc and he has with his colleagues and we can both see it coming, is the demand for Heroin since the pills are being cut off systematically, rather than based upon getting a person OFF the physical addiction to Opiates.

Pain control Doctors and addiction specialists have know for years that Cannabis helps a patient getting off of Opiates, if that is a route that the patient sees as the best way for them to get off the Opiates.

Now the numbers have fleshed it out and there is also a GOOD unintended consequence of Medical Cannabis being available to patients and that is, that EVERY state that has embraced the program have witnessed a decrease in Opioid overdoses in their state, a 25% reduction in Opioid deaths. If we could change just one life, save one human from an Opioid overdose, anything would be worth trying, right? I have listened to grieving parents expressing such openness to Medical Cannabis but it was already to late.

But what good would Medical Cannabis have on an addiction to another drug? Isn't that just trading one addiction to another? If it is trading an addiction, they are trading a physical addiction to a habitual addiction, surely there is a net benefit in that, right?
Are people who take IBuprohin everyday addicts? What is the opinion of society going to be when Medical Cannabis is as accepted as readily as an Opioid? Or when Medical Cannabis and it's derivatives, such as CBD's are next to the IBuprohin? Which would you choose for pain control if both were offered? KNOWING that the medical community we trusted to keep our pain under control, pushed an Opiate like OxyContin, as a 'little risk of addiction to the patient', which turned out to be the exact opposite of what OxyContin actually does to the body.

To add salt to the wound, the maker of OxyContin, Purdue, KNEW that it was addictive when they advised Doctors to increase the patients dose, if the patient is having breakthrough pain 8 hours into their 12 hour dose.

Which would you choose knowing the facts as best as I have presented them?

self censored my response because it had to do with the blood of the womb instead of water of the womb, and I've found from past discussions that jokes about menstrual blood have a fairly limited audience. — Hanover

I cannot imagine how that would be the case. :P

Did you ask him for his sources? X-) — Sir2u

Sir, he whips out his additional brain he carries in his pocket and will read it to me if necessary from unlimited sources if I ask. Nope, I openly admit he is beginning to give me a run for my money politically. EVERYTHING that is wrong with the planet is OUR fault. On one occasion he said "Thanks a lot for destroying the climate we have to live in and NOT believing in climate change" to which I tried on many occasions to explain how we have evolved but he never accepted it. So now he gets a snarky response like "Where the heck is my Aqua Net Hairspray?" laughing like a fool.
I cannot believe I am actually paying for this abuse!

@Hanover
I was talking to my youngest Indian and said the phrase "Blood is thicker than water" and he said do you really know what you are saying? I said of course I do and explained what I did to you. To which he clarified for me that one of the meanings is "Blood is thicker than water" originally derived from the phrase "the blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb", implying that the ordinary meaning is the opposite of the original intention.

@Lone Wolf What a beautiful smile Mutty! Bailey loves getting his tummy rubbed too!
Bailey is a Rottweiler and he is now 2.5 yrs old and he has a girlfriend Duchess also 2.5 who is a Dutch Shepard/Black Lab mix and make no doubt about it that she runs the ranch! Here is her selfie!

{{{{{{Sir}}}}}}}<<<<online hug
{{{{{Kev}}}}}}<<<<online hug

Only if they want to make a connection or to bridge the gap

Awww I cannot wait! Here is a picture of one of my pups
His name is Prince Bailey Von Reiseg. We call him Bailey and I call him my Bailey Boo....absolutely loveable~

The best guide as to how to act is conscience; which consists in moral imagination and intuition. It is direct and has no need of a system, although it can be helpful to present moral intuitions as maxims. — Janus

Okay but how do you teach that to another, who might not be as compassionate as yourself?

That is Missy, my dog lol. — Lone Wolf

White German Shepard?

Bleh. I don't like mornings. Actually, I don't like anything anymore — Lone Wolf

Awww come on Lone Wolf, mornings always go away. Who is that in your profile picture?

Examples of how your ethical system has guided you towards certain actions towards people? — fdrake

I am not sure if this is what you are getting at in that my ethical system, which I had to completely reverse from my upbringing, which was to discipline myself in never raising a hand to my children.

Or

Are you talking about the hard ethical rules, that are created by humans, that determine the ethical decisions of say a self driving car that is programmed with the risk ratio when assessing an imminent impact.

No, that's fake news. — Michael

Here I thought fake news was on TMZ and reports of real news were on FOX and CNN news reports.

@Michael Would that be FOX news?

Same, but with a goat. — Michael

Banno would be proud!
Now I am pissed off because@Banno could be here to say that!

What cake?
Where the hell is it?
Who is trying to eat it? — Sir2u

The Rum soaked carrot cake is on the window ledge cooling and after dinner WE can eat it.

People who are too arrogant to not pull all the way over AND stop for an Emergency Vehicle!!

Your mother in law, hopefully. (jrob told me to say that :D) — Baden

8-) that jrob is a good man

Another thing that pisses me off is when people try to insert a word that you are searching for to accurately describe what I am trying to say.
Life is not Jeopardy folks!

So, what you are saying is I need a gun. (Y) — Baden

Yes and come here with it so I can show you what to shoot!

Mother In Laws

Yeah, where do you yanks paint your crosswalks? *Mulls alternatives, comes up blank* :) — Baden

We yanks paint our crosswalks on the street, followed with a light up version of your little green man walking in a fast stride. But our Zebra crossings are on an overpass with little green light up Zebras. Maybe the Zebras will be more respectful of you, then dodging cars like you are doing on the little green man.

Cars trying to kill me at zebra crossings — Baden

Are zebra crossings, cross walks painted on the ground?

Moderators should be drawn from the best of the members, both in terms of their philosophical knowledge and clarity of posting, and their behaviour in terms of the guidelines. Generally, I would be looking for posters who defuse rather than escalate, for grace under fire. I have to confess that this does not come all that naturally to me, personally, but it is of paramount importance. Editing and deleting and banning are the enforcement procedures, which obviously should be carried out according to the guidelines and as fairly and transparently as can be managed.

However, the more important role of the staff is to lead by example and set the tone. As such, it is no defence at all to say that a moderator's posts pass the minimum standard below which they would be deleted, let alone that they would be deleted if they were not in feedback. If the best of us barely pass muster, the rest of us are really in a mess. And I fear this is what is happening.

Moderators should be uncomfortable; they should worry about their own behaviour, and that of their fellow mods. They should not be complacent, and they should not be sheep huddling in a fold. I don't know what discussions you have had in private about all this if any, and don't need to know. But this is the essence of my complaint, that I hold the staff to a higher standard than the members, because they ought to exemplify the best of us, not the minimally acceptable. That way leads to degeneration. — unenlightened

Or

The guidelines and rules are to enforce a minimum level of decorum. Certainly you can do better than that?

I personally don't think you're a very effective communicator and it stems from the fact that you think you don't need to take other people's feelings into account when expressing yourself but expect them to accept the way you express yourself. Or consider "being frank" important but how you do that a "stylistic irrelevance". There's a lot of ways to get your ideas across; being frank and not caring about how you come across to others is not very effective and you will indeed end up in a "bloodsport" with a lot of people where most of the time it isn't necessary. — Beneki

I've been following the spat between Sapientia and @ArguingWAristotleTiff for quite a while and have spoken to them both about it by PM. I see it mainly as a personal issue between two people who have known each other for a long time — Baden

Baden, it's not a "spat" and I have in thread attempted to begin the healing with Sapientia, in my wanting to find our way back to where we were but his answering my in thread overture in private is an indicator as to where Sapientia sits on this healing process.

Sapientia
I do wish to put this clash of egos to rest and try to move back to us walking on the same absurd side of the street that we once walked down together. I wish to call you my fine feathered friend again. My efforts will be focused on that and we will see where that takes us. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

It's all water under the bridge, anyway. It's flowing away from us as we speak. In fact, it's almost as though the less we speak, the faster it flows. — Sapientia

For his PM is quite different than this note to everybody in thread.

If it is okay for moderators to speak in a condescending attitude towards the members, then it is what it is.

And Sapientia is quite right in saying that " it's almost as though the less we speak, the faster it flows".

The less we speak..... :-x

I'm saying that if bad people with guns kill 1,000 people and if good guys with guns save 100 people then it probably isn't worth having guns — Michael

Thank you for helping me understand your question. Your idea would be apply if we had to have a reason to own a firearm but we don't because owning a firearm is a right.
What is being brought to light is that this killer was "Devin P. Kelley was court-martialed on one count of assault on his spouse and another count of assault on their child. He received a bad conduct discharge, 12 months' confinement and a reduction in rank"

That is a HUGE communication gap between our military and our private citizens list of people not allowed to buy firearms. I am not sure he would have been allowed a firearm with domestic battery IF the two systems were walking and talking together.

The point is that you're suggesting that if the good guy didn't have a gun then more people would have died, whereas I'm pointing out that if the bad guy didn't have a gun then fewer people would have died. — Michael

I understand your logic but the bad guy will always find a way to get a gun, legally or illegally.

Perhaps we should do a cost benefit analysis. Does the availability of guns in the U.S. protect more than it harms or vice versa? — Michael

I am simply stating that there are times when a good guy with a gun, a regular armed citizen, actually does happen and this might be an example of that very argument. Time and investigation will prove that to be true or false.

I think the availability of firearms can be a double edged sword but I am not sure how to quantify your question. Are you asking if the 300 million privately owned firearms, owned by responsible firearm owners in the USA, are responsible for the damage that terror inspired or the mentally ill carry out?

I am disgusted with myself. I cannot keep myself from thinking that in Texas they really love their guns — tim wood

In this Church shooting AND it is still early in the investigation but first reports are a good guy with a gun shot and chased this killer by car, while reporting to the local police while in pursuit. They don't yet know if the bullet the regular citizen fired led to this man's death but I think it is safe to say, the regular citizen with a gun, used it responsibly and ended what could have been a continuing killing spree.

Our school year starts in February and end in November so we are just about finished. Lucky me. — Sir2u

And lucky us!

it's like herding cats with a squirt gun! X-) — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Bulls, like herding big stupid bulls and nowadays they can be just as dangerous. Kittens can be led or at least bribed to to things. — Sir2u

True! It gets to be a bit scary when the 8th graders are bigger than the teachers and out number them by 25 to one. :-O

@Sapientia
I do wish to put this clash of egos to rest and try to move back to us walking on the same absurd side of the street that we once walked down together. I wish to call you my fine feathered friend again. My efforts will be focused on that and we will see where that takes us.

Can you guys stop your bickering please. Neither of you is going to back down, neither of you is going to 'win', there's absolutely nothing at stake in what you're doing. Instead, you've been putting each other down in various ways over the last, I dunno, week? You're both forum staff, act like it. — fdrake

@fdrake No, I am not a member of the forum staff but yes I can back down, as I have never been looking to win. Thank you for your moderation.

Brokeback Mountain female version? — Hanover

Would it help your trying to envision us having a
A) pillow fight by the fire while roasting marshmallows for smores'
or
B) a picture of a TALL set of wooden stairs outside that needed a fresh coat of green paint, when one of us checked to see if it was dry, we found out it wasn't via the missing the first 10 stairs down and a slime of green paint from blonde head to toe.

Right on cue. — Sapientia

Oh were you waiting for me?
At the very least you have read the difference between the two terms: sarcasm and condescending, so we are all able to use them accurately.

@Sir2u Are you still around? My guess is yes but lurking because you are back in school teaching those that are following after us.
I am a Mom and can be blunt, it's like herding cats with a squirt gun! X-)

Definition of sarcasm
1 :a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain
2 a :a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual

Oh wait, is that too emotional for you, my little sensitive flower? — TimeLine

If TimeLine's reply quoted above is what "sarcasm" is intended to be and do, it would seem counterproductive to be used by those who wish to have fruitful and productive discussions.

I personally wouldn't categorize the quote above as "sarcasm". I categorize that as condescending.
Definition of condescending : showing or characterized by a patronizing or superior attitude toward others

While I appreciate that you are drawing off your own experiences, at present the discussion is about what compels a person to take drugs and not about the legality or benefits of cannabis. A person without direction from a medical professional is often compelled to drug-use due to self-esteem issues and a sense of apathy, stress and anxiety, as well as accessibility. This causes greater difficulties for a person with pre-existing mental health issues, and even cannabis - particularly following long-term and frequent use - can be detrimental and lead to the development of serious psychosis and other forms of pathology. Those living with mental health issues including depression and anxiety have a higher risk of forming a dependence on substances that includes alcohol and drugs. — TimeLine

I agree that Cannabis has contraindications when used by someone who has an undiagnosed psychosis among a few other medical conditions/illnesses.

William Styron' book Darkness Visible is an account of the severity of depression and how after forty years of alcohol-dependence that helped alleviate his anxiety throughout that length of time, the moment he stopped drinking alcohol he declined into a severe state of depression. His substance abuse was a means to “calm the anxiety and incipient dread that I had hidden away for so long.” By facing that anxiety, he almost committed suicide and indeed the link between depression and substance abuse is clear, just as much as depression and other mental health ailments are linked with suicide. — TimeLine

It is true that some people fear sobriety more than they do death.

You have a personal or direct experience with a few people seeking pain relief and that is fine, but 29.5 million people worldwide are addicted to illicit drugs, 800,000 people commit suicide each year, millions living with the pain of depression, anxiety or disassociation, not to mention the decline in health and wellbeing including the spread of diseases. — TimeLine

In being a patient advocate I have seen all walks of Cannabis users and as I said before, I have seen Cannabis help people get off of harder drugs such as alcohol and Opioids, so your personal experience is not the same as mine.

29.5 million people worldwide are addicted to illicit drugs but with no list of what drugs they are addicted to, it makes the number less relevant to your using it as support. Once again I will repeat myself that Cannabis is not a physically addictive drug. Please provide a breakdown of that statistic: of what drugs and where in the world the addiction is if you want to cite your assertions.

It doesn't help that more than 50% of people who begin with marijuana move on to illicit drug use and I am not sure if you have ever seen a teenager addicted to Ice or other opioids, but it is the most horrific thing to see. — TimeLine

Ah, the old idea that marijuana is the gateway drug to.....wait...how can marijuana be "illicit" enough to be to be combined in your world wide statistics above but now you are saying that "It doesn't help that more than 50% of people who begin with marijuana move on to illicit drug use" suggesting that marijuana is not an "illicit" drug. Which is it? Do you know how marijuana is seen around the world?

When you ask me if I have ever seen a teenager addicted to Ice which is a form of Methamphetamine or Opioids, all I have to offer you is a gracious smile, as I wonder if you have read and comprehended a single word that I have written,

I apologize if not all of 'us' fit into the mold you have created but stick with it and see where it gets you — ArguingWAristotleTiff
It is not a mould I have set, it is a thing called reality. The problem transcends your backyard. — TimeLine

The "reality" is that Cannabis is not always a "problem". Did you read the study I linked my last post to or were you still responding emotionally?

People who smoke marijuana often become much more content with where they are in life. — ArguingWAristotleTiff
I think it is you creating this "mould". By the way, I have never taken any form of drugs including cannabis and I do not drink alcohol, but I am "content". — TimeLine

Alcohol is one of the deadliest drugs on the market so be sure to keep it included in your "any form of drug", it is more comprehensive and accurate that way.

I am genuinely thrilled for you to be able to say you are "content". (L)

Yes, as I said above, people who smoke marijuana often become much more content with where they are in life. — ArguingWAristotleTiff — TimeLine

Oh, forgive me, I did not know that you somehow knew all people all over the world who smoke marijuana and thus have some transnational power that has enabled you to verify all smokers are content with where they are in life. And here I was, silly little me, thinking that smoking causes a temporary sense of contentment because they are unhappy or miserable, which therefore verifies they are in fact not content and the smoking is the tool to assist with that sense of contentment. — TimeLine

I have been very careful in not saying that "all" do anything. I have said "often become" but that is quite different from "always become". As far as your "thinking that smoking causes a temporary sense of contentment because they are unhappy or miserable" is true in some cases and maybe even prevalent in your experiences. However, I am drawing off of my own experiences and as a patient advocate, I am in the position to help registered patients find the pain relief they are seeking, I am not in the position to try to talk them out of it. Of the three patients, in the last four years, that I as a fellow patient have advocated for, three have died so my record would appear on the surface to be nothing to applaud but to the families of the loved ones we lost? My guidance was something they valued more than money itself. The Cannabis patients I have been involved with so far were at the point where money is no object, not because the push of consumerism but rather a chance at a greater quality end of life.

"I don't agree with your statement "considering the drug itself is the very cause of the temporary alleviation of anxiety that enable this contentment". You are assuming that there is anxiety about not having the 'stuff' consumerism promotes such as an iPhone or a pair of Nike sneakers." ArguingWAristotleTiff

What? No, I am saying that a person who takes drugs can still be a consumerist; the world is not you or the people you know. Are you saying that drugs do not alleviate the anxiety that enables one to feel contentment? Geez, then why would people take it? — TimeLine

The experiences I have to draw on are quite different from yours, which is fine but there is a difference. To answer your question of whether or not people would take Cannabis to alleviate "anxiety" is situation dependent. Some strains of Cannabis increase anxiety where others have a calming effect, if the right strain is found, the anxiety comes into check, based upon each persons body chemistry.

Taking drugs temporarily alleviates anxiety and gives one a sense of calm and contentment, but that is taking away the anxiety that ultimately returns and thus the cycle is that one relies on the drugs to enable a faux contentment. Consumerism offers the same. — TimeLine

I am not sure who your source is about how Cannabis can interact with a person's chemistry but the never ending cycle you speak of is not always the case. As shocking as it may be, there are people who are not stuck in the cycle of consumerism or the cycle of addiction.

"What I am suggesting is that people who smoke marijuana, are often the same people who share a car instead of owning two, who give away more than they keep or who will cover the difference of someone who comes up short for their purchases, all which fly in the face of falling victim to an inflated level of consumerism. It would be erroneous to believe that people who smoke marijuana are any less caring just because some don't see the value in the consumerism happening around them." ArguingWAristotleTiff

This is hilarious. I really don't know how to respond to it but the justification is bordering the absurd. — TimeLine

Absurdity is an important part of Philosophy. The ability to embrace the absurd allows one to hear the other end of the spectrum, so you know where everybody 'can' stand, regardless of the popular position. Some people understand the importance of absurdity in relation to Philosophy and others do not, it either is or it isn't. And from the sounds of it, you are not familiar with the perspective of the absurdity, that is around 'thinkers' or arm chair philosophers, us.

"some marijuana smokers are indeed tempted to be constantly upping their financial consumption, who are jumping into their leased car, heading to a 9 to 5 career, only to be standing next to a fellow college, with drink in hand at the bar by 6pm. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

:-| — TimeLine

I do apologize for the misspelling as I meant 'colleagues' not college but my point stands. The consumption of alcohol is the consumption of a drug and happy hour comes once a day and colleagues who look down their nose at Cannabis consumers are standing on the same ground, they just haven't realized it yet because they are waiting for society to say it's acceptable.

"I am not speaking about "that addict" I am speaking of some marijuana smokers. Not everyone who smokes marijuana is an "addict" (I will use your word addict and let it pass because physically you cannot become addicted to marijuana, habitual addiction yes, physical addiction no) anymore than the person who attends happy hour for alcohol, being an alcoholic." ArguingWAristotleTiff

The most powerful of addictions are the habitual, the constant need to return until you form a tolerance or a need to continue the cycle. It is the first stage of forming an addiction. The rituals of spending time getting high soon enough loses the control that one has over the drug that they become dependent on it and for those who have pre-existing or a vulnerable to mental health issues, the development of an enduring psychotic illness is of serious concern. Any denial of that and of the existing research that indicates that is disturbing. — TimeLine

You have created your own version of a Cannabis consumer and I apologize if not all of 'us' fit into the mold you have created but stick with it and see where it gets you. I would appreciate it if you could find the time to read this latest study and understand the complexity of Cannabis and the degree of damage, if any and recognize the cases in which Cannabis has proven to be a protector from lung cancer, where even the non smokers of any kind, had an increased rate of lung cancer over the Cannabis smoker.

I understand you have some quite specific interests in cannabis, but I wonder whether the contentedness you have attributed to using cannabis is a chicken/egg problem. Do people prefer cannabis because they are already laid back, contented, un-acquisitive ... or were they very anxious people, up-tight, and acquisitive before they used cannabis and then found salvation in weed? I've known regular cannabis users who clearly need something stronger than weed if they are going to calm down.

The other thing is that many people have achieved these laudable states of peacefulness without using any drugs at all--not even alcohol. (Beats me how they do it.) — Bitter Crank

BitterCrank, I know you understand that I am an advocate for the use and formal study of Cannabis. You probably already know that I am choosing to live a life Opiate free, after a severe addiction to OxyContin and Cannabis is the only pain reliever at my disposal. I am allergic to Aspirin, IB causes my Ulcers to bleed and we wonder why even Tylenol makes my ulcers bleed but that could be attributed to the year that I stayed awake on Meth. The only way I took Meth was by mixing it in a bit of juice and drinking it. My thinking is that the Meth may have called pin holes in my stomach lining but I don't know that for sure. I just know that there are going to be a LOT more people out there that are going to need to get off of Opiates forever and Cannabis might be their only option for pain control. I can tell you I had oral surgery, with bone grafting and a suture around the surgery sight and only had to take only two Somas on day one and three, the rest was pain control via a Cannabis extract called RSO or Rick Simpson Oil, whose dose is the size of a single grain of rice. Forgive me if I explain in such detail, but I was damn impressed with my ability to get through that without what would have been in the past at least 30 Percocet ingested.

To answer your chicken/egg question: I don't really know. I have seen it go both ways where laid back people who consume Cannabis are even more laid back once under the influence and I know people who were uptight, acquisitive, very anxious people and tried to find their "salvation in weed" and it wound them up even tighter. But I cannot think of a Cannabis consumer that is striving for the house on the hill or for the 2018 Acura with all the bells and whistles. What I can think of is Cannabis consumers that are raising well mannered children, a decrease in the use of physical discipline with children, a shift in their focus from obtaining 'things' to focusing on the contentment their lives are now.

The other thing is that many people have achieved these laudable states of peacefulness without using any drugs at all--not even alcohol. (Beats me how they do it.) — Bitter Crank

I have heard that Faith is a good alternative. O:)