There is something it is like to be a football. — NOS4A2

What is it like to be a football? What are you thinking of? Round (or oval if you're a septic), inflatable, ect? Is that what you mean?

To be clear, if I had a pill that would stop you being autistic, I would give it to you. I have no problem at all with you disliking it and I hope you can find some way to stop being it. But I'm against such a pill being available to the general population. That would mean the end of autism. My son would be in the last generation. Parents would give it to their autistic children en masse.

Yes you can. Not really hitting it out of the park huh. — Darkneos

Well, sort of. You could maybe develop a medication or surgery or something that turn people from being autistic to neurotypical, but such a thing could only correctly be called a 'cure' by people like you who conceive of autism as a disease. Neurodivergence is generally not conceived that way, so 'cure' would be the wrong word. Unless you want to say that you could 'cure' bipedalism by hacking someone's leg off.

the problem is that people seem to forget this can manifest in many ways and while some have the good traits and minimal bad down have nothing but bad and struggle needlessly. — Darkneos

What are you calling good traits? Can you list a few? And the bad? Can you list a few of those? Just so I know what you mean.

There are autistic people who struggle a lot, and are extremely disabled, and yet would not choose to take the cure pill. There are, no doubt, autistic people who are not especially disabled, who nevertheless would take the cure pill, just to fit in better. I'm just making the point that there is no necessary connection between having a shitty time and wanting not to be autistic. I haven't done a survey, and it would be interesting and informative to do one (maybe someone has), but I'm pretty sure autistic people who don't want to be autistic are in a minority. But I could be wrong. I suspect you are doubly-marginalised unfortunately, being a minority of a minority.

The "you would be a different person" argument isn't valid. We change over time, no one is the same person they were when they were a teen or a kid etc, so his argument in there about wishing their kid was dead by not having autism could literally apply to ANYONE who changes something about themselves in a manner that isn't recognized. — Darkneos

Yes, and it's bad when it does. Children grow up in ways their parents don't like, and parents disown them. My mum thought I was fab until I grew up and got a job as a labourer. Then she thought I was a useless failure. She had expectations of me that did not align with my own. I'm not clear what your point is. You seem to be agreeing with Sinclair.

IMO it's not a positive message — Darkneos

Not to you, clearly. But many people have found it extremely helpful.

They treat everyone's case as the same when it's not, — Darkneos

He's speaking to a group of parents, not an autistic individual. It's critically important, sans a 'cure', for parents to not think their kids are crap versions of neurotypicals, rather than perfectly good specimens of autistic people. Even if that's false (which it isn't), it will result in better outcomes for the kid.

I'm sick of being told to change my attitude as if they know what I've had to deal with. — Darkneos

What have you had to deal with? This?

Always being on the outside when it came to social interactions, never being able to read into things like others do, rigid thinking, etc, etc. — Darkneos

Well, that is the same for all autistic people! What you've said so far seems to be entirely autistic-normal, it's pretty much the defining characteristics. The difference, as you say, seems to be that you don't find any positives about being autistic, whereas many other autistic people do. So is that what you mean when you say "What you've had to deal with"? Is it not feeling anything positive about your autism?

This is the naïveté I was talking about that I don’t like from the pro side. — Darkneos

Can you explain what you perceive as naivite among autistic people who feel OK about being autistic? Is it that they tell you you can feel fine about it as well if you just change your attitude or something patronising like that?

EDIT: It would be naive of me if I thought I could extrapolate my own experience to all other autistic people, such that what works for me works for everyone. But exposing other autistic people to information, narratives, culture and so on often does help. Simply doing that isn't naive. Expecting it to always be helpful and strike everyone's bell certainly would be.

Like I said it’s different for everyone so it should be left up to the person. — Darkneos

What about children?

The origins of a more positive narrative around autism can be found in Jim Sinclair's seminal presentation to parents of autistic children called "Don't Mourn for Us". Here's the link, it has had a huge impact on many autistic people:

https://www.autreat.com/dont_mourn.html

When I was reading literature on autism one particular aspect which I came across was how 'theory of mind' plays an important role, with autism often involving a lack of understanding of other minds. — Jack Cummins

This is just the principle, applicable to anyone, that it is hard to understand people who are different from ourselves. It's not peculiar to autistic people.

So in terms of social policy, what approach should society take if a 'cure' is discovered? You and I might be on opposing sides of the debate by the sounds of it.

If Chalmers doesn't think consciousness is an object, element, aspect, or entity, then why does he speak about it like it is? — NOS4A2

He thinks it's a property, like spin charge and mass

Sure, disability is a different kind of minority. But if autistics were in the majority, neurotypicals would be disabled. They may even be forcibly detained for making decisions based on feelings, for not saying what they mean, for being over reliant on social interactions for comfort, and generally being a menace to society. Much disability is indeed caused by an ill fit with the social environment, although not all. I don't think autistic people are intrinsically 'socially handicapped'. They appear so when the environment is taken for granted and therefore invisible. A fish on a pavement is disabled. In the water it's fine.

I also never got how people say it's the world that's fucked up and not me, I mean logically it would be the other way around because the world is just what it is. It's not like it's actively malicious or plotting your doom (no matter how we feel some days). — Darkneos

The world isn't just what it is in the sense that it isn't a product of human beings and can't be changed. Any more than billionaires having all the money is 'just the way it is', as if nothing can be done.

Minorities generally have to somehow deal with the fact that they live in a context that is not set up with them in mind. There are a number of ways to cope with this. Not coping is also an option.

I was diagnosed about 7 years ago I think. The general consensus among autistic activists is that a cure is not appropriate because autism isn't a disease. I probably mostly agree with that, however, there are a lot of co-occurring conditions (epilepsy being the main one I guess) that there are significant downsides to. If there was a pill that got rid of some of the crappier co-occurring conditions without changing the autism, I'd be in favour of that. And there are also a significant minority of autistic adults who don't want to be autistic. It sucks, and these people are not comforted by the social-model line that there's nothing wrong with them it's the world that's fucked up. I sympathise with them, and for those people a cure would be great. Unfortunately there might be a lot of unintended consequences. Do we want a world without autistic people in it? I don't.

EDIT: have you managed to find other autistic people you can relate to?

Incels: a misogynist hate movement so extreme they approve of enslaving and raping women. Living embodiments of rape culture as unenlightened and @Baden astutely point out. — fdrake

Really? I haven't explored that online grotto. I just thought incels were disgruntled angry men who can't get a shag. They really want to enslave and rape women?

Sounds great. I'm envious. I still haven't figured out a feasible method.

How does it feel to be objectified as a man, by women that earn more, have higher social status and influence. — Benj96

Pretty shitty. They're not interested in my personality.

EDIT: My most recent partner only liked me for my broad shoulders, rugged looks, ability to cook, trim shrubs and maintain bicycles. When I expressed my personality I told her I was submissive, that her right-wing views were disgusting, that she was ignorant and unwilling to learn, and that sometimes I hated her, she dumped me.

I hope that doesn't signal a problem. Some people need more privacy than others. Some, because their talent and interest inclines them to solitary pursuits: graphic arts, literature or academic study; some because they have matters to contemplate, ideas to work through; some due to particular fears or general lack of confidence; some because they're hypersensitive, so that their feelings and perceptions are overwhelmed by too much interaction, or more simply, they lack access to a compatible pool of potential friends - that's more likely if a child is exceptional in some way. It might be a good idea to investigate the reason - it's possible the boy could use some help. Or he may be quite content until he's ready to move on to the next phase. — Vera Mont

He's autistic like his mum and dad. He'll be OK, just needs to find his tribe, like I had to. It was just a lot easier for me because I could cope with school. We're trying to set up a DnD group at the moment, hopefully that will work out.

I don't think the incel movement started with Covid lockdowns, nor will it end with the pandemic. — Vera Mont

Oh, that's interesting. I got the impression that kids avoided light and air before the lockdown as well, but maybe you are right. Hmm. I can't remember very well. My son didn't have any friends before either, but he didn't really want any.

Maybe they should get off their cellphones and go out to the baseball park — Vera Mont

There's nobody at the baseball park. They're all on their goddamn phones. My son is having this trouble. He can't attend school, but there are no children messing about outside like kids used to do, throwing stones and showing their bums to the peado in the bushes and fun stuff like that. So he can't even meet people that way.

Interesting you mention volunteering, he was actually so lonely he went and walked around the streets picking up litter hoping that someone would talk to him. Guess what happened. Nothing! Not even a good stoning from the local disaffected youth.

Heck, I'd consider glue sniffing under a bridge to be an acceptable social outcome for him at this stage.

And he's too old even for a paedo now. That ship has sailed. Fucking sad.

Physical attractiveness is not of paramount consideration for women, nor is charisma, compared to dependability, kindness and patience with children. — Vera Mont

Isn't the truth of that dependent on context though? What if a woman has lots of support and an independent income? Bags of security, no need of that from a partner. Might they not prioritise the fun stuff more?

I think this is what incels are complaining about. — Benj96

If that is what they are complaining about (and I'm not sure it is always) then they have a point. The tricky thing then is what the hell do they do about it? As you say, in a small community you can cultivate and display other traits and skills than height, wealth and looks. Is there a shortage of arenas men can display on? Is that the issue? Or is it really cultural after all?

Obviously, when I refer to incels as 'they', I do of course mean 'I'.

There is also a high risk that one robs you, one beats you up or even kills you. And no guarantee that any of those guys with a nice picture is nice in person, or literate or well-mannered - and none at all that any of them are compatible in temperament. (I don't know about you, I was never, not even when young and nubile, inclined to "shag a bunch" of relative virtual strangers.) — Vera Mont

Ha! Yeah, I probably should have said something like 'carefully get to know before shagging' instead of 'shag' but the basic point remains.

I never jumped into bed with loads of women either, but that's because I'm an incel.

And you get an unacceptable rate of inbreeding, as we see in some isolated populations. Tribal peoples have been aware of this, so they held - and still sometimes do - gatherings of young people to find mates; in many cultures, they routinely exchanged adolescents of either sex or both with another group. Stratified civilizations are more restrictive in the choice of mates - selecting permissible pairings by race, caste, creed, class and even to the point of strictly brokered marriage without the consent of one or both partners. — Vera Mont

I do think limiting the range of options helps greatly to cope with the burden of choice, especially when that choice is unrealistic or illusory. But paradoxically, and perhaps foolishly, we still crave maximal choice, at least for ourselves.

Could there be a mechanical explanation? I've heard the following kind of explanation, I'm not sure if it makes sense or not. But I do instinctively like mechanical explanations based on stats, behaviours of populations en masse, some reasonable assumptions on choices people make, etc. As opposed to cultural explanation, although they may turn out to be true. Anyway:

In small communities in which everyone knows each other, choice is limited and people know what each other are doing. So you get a couple of decent wealthy handsome guys, but the less attractive women know that they won't end up with them, one of the few young nice wealthy women likely will. So as not to waste their time, they go for one of the less attractive guys straight away. Basically everyone can see all the pieces in the game, and they know what pairings are likely to work out.

With dating apps, and a high general population, you get a completely skewed impression of the market. As a woman sitting in your room on your own, you enter your filters, and you get a menu of 50 nice handsome men to choose from. You shag a bunch of them and maybe one stays with you, maybe not. But you never even bother with a whole bunch of less attractive men because you don't think you need to, because you think you can get one of the ones your dating app is showing you.

Does that hang together? Or is it bollocks?

The only part of you that you cannot lose, and still think of yourself as you (and, for that matter, still think), is your brain. If you could no longer walk and type and wave, and see and hear and taste, you’d still be you. (Though you might wish you were not.) — Patterner

I agree. I think the brain, neuroscience, and structure and function generally, is totally relevant to the issue of what constitutes the self. But the self isn't consciousness. All reductionist theories of consciousness would be better reframed as theories of the self.

@RogueAI just wants someone to defend/explicate mysterianism, regardless of whether you agree with it or not. That's right isn't it?

I think consciousness is casual. But I'm hoping someone who agrees that it is, indeed, nothing but physics, but also thinks it is causal, can explain how they believe both things, since they appear to contradict each other. Because, otherwise, I'm looking at panprotopsychism. Which is an awkward ideas. Even if true, it doesn't seem to be anything about which we can do more than speculate. — Patterner

You could ask @apokrisis about that. He might be able to distinguish different types of cause and tell a top-down story that is consistent with the bottom-up one.

Personally I'm starting to think all causation is psychological.

I'm bored with explaining the same thing again and again. The model is a model of the self in its world. — apokrisis

Then explain it better. Why does a self have to be sentient?

So yes, we do feel like a self in it is world as that is the essence of the modelling relation which makes for a sentient organism. — apokrisis

No it doesn't. Sentience makes for a sentient organism. Why can't you have a modelling relation without sentience?

A rebuttal would be a counter argument. It is pretty obvious why consciousness is a bigger problem for anyone who thinks it arrived early in the Universe’s evolution. So much more than your glib assertion is required here. — apokrisis

OK, I'm not being clear. You said the hard problem was about fundamental stuffs. It isn't necessarily, Chalmers doesn't characterise it that way. It applies to any view that says consciousness 'arises' (pick verb of choice) from a physical system or entity or whatever. Acknowledging the existence of this challenge doesn't mean it isn't solved. Maybe your theory solves it. Maybe it's not a hard problem at all, only it seems hard to people, like me, stuck in outmoded habits of thought. It's just a name for an issue (possibly a pseudo-issue) that needs addressing. Acknowledging that there might be a burden to explain such an emergence does not commit you to thinking that the hard problem is unsolvable. Similarly, I'm a panpsychist, but I don't deny that there is a serious issue called the 'combination problem' that panpsychists have a burden to address. Maybe it's easy to address, maybe not.

It's a problem for anyone who thinks that consciousness arrived late in the universe, however that is construed.
— bert1

That’s an assertion and not an argument. — apokrisis

I wasn't trying to make a substantial point, merely to rebut your mischaracterisation of the hard problem in too narrow terms.

The thing to remember is the hard problem is a problem about fundamental “stuff”. — apokrisis

It can be framed in those terms but doesn't have to be. It's a problem for anyone who thinks that consciousness arrived late in the universe, however that is construed.

I did, because I think weak emergence is eliminativism. I might be wrong though... — Eugen

Oh, I see what you mean.

1. Is the logic of the model correct? — Eugen

Yes, pretty much, I think.

Applying this to consciousness, you've left out eliminativism as an option, which you probably should have included. In terms of the broadest possible scheme of options, I tend to think of it like this:

Either:
1) Panpsychism (everything is conscious)
or
2) Emergentism (of some kind) (some things are conscious)
or
3) Eliminativism (nothing is conscious)

2. There is an alternative to this model, i.e. a model in which ''absolutely anything you could think of" is not fundamental, but it is neither 100% reducible nor strongly emergent? — Eugen

Intuitively that doesn't seem possible, but I'd need to do some work on various ways something could be emergent.

3. Does this model apply to any type of reality? I mean, if instead of matter we assume that the most fundamental thing is an immaterial computer or information, does this change have any impact on the model? — Eugen

Intuitively, yes, it would apply to any kind I would have thought. Seems conceptually necessary, but I might not have thought of something.

For the physicalist, the physical substrate is fundamental, consciousness is epiphenomenal. — Wayfarer

I don't think that's right. Epiphenominalism is arguably a kind of dualism (property or substance, both fit). A non-causal invisible 'froth' somehow produced by some organisms. It's motivated by taking our subjective experience as real and not reducible to physical processes, at the same time as not violating the causal closure of the physical. Both of these are very plausible intuitions separately, but when smashed together look very odd. If I were a physicalist I would reject epiphenominalism as violating physicalism. I would want to say that consciousness just is a physical process.

1. If there really is a problem of consciousness, is this a matter-specific problem? — Eugen

No, the hard problem exists if we start with something (anything) that isn't consciousness, and try to explain consciousness in terms of that. Depending on what we start with, the 'hard problem' might be more, or less, difficult.

2. If we replace matter with another fundamental substance (except consciousness itself) can something change? — Eugen

I haven't heard anything so far that changes the situation. You get things like 'panprotopsychism' but that's basically just importing consciousness into substance. There's @Apokrisis 'pansemeiosis' which puts meaning as fundamental, or near-fundamental, and then, by stages, as complex systems evolve, they gain more of the constituents of consciousness (attention, predictive ability, some other stuff (can't remember)) until eventually we have a creature that can be said to be fully conscious. Personally I don't think that touches the hard problem, but it's an interesting approach nonetheless and may well be a good way to explain some mental functions if not consciousness.

Is this like the emptiness of Buddhism? — Art48

Not sure, that's @Wayfarer's department.

EDIT: An abyss is a word of a general relating background that less-abyssal things stand out from. That seems to fit the idea of substance.

"Why posit an ultimate ground? Is not what is sufficient? Is the world too imperfect for it to exist without it depending on something else? Does being ungrounded cause vertigo? A yawning abyss one is too fearful to approach?" – Fooloso4 — Art48

The abyss is the substance.