It's not that we don't get the concept so much as that we disagree on the examples. — Vera Mont

Wonderful and why did we attempt to have a democracy? What makes it different from the kingdoms of the Bible? What are the characteristics of democracy? What is the best way to prepare our young for citizenship? The title of this thread is Culture is Critical. What does that have to do with democracy, liberty, and justice?

Except for all the gods Socrates is supposed to have offended. — Vera Mont

It used to take at least a hundred years for something like the discovery of bacteria to become common knowledge. The miracle of the Athenians is their transition from superstition to science and a focus on proofs. That is why they got our attention and became a model for US education. They were thought to be a race of geniuses. The transition did not happen overnight, but it happen.

In the play, The Clouds by Aristophanes, the character named Socrates argues in favor of science.

It would take a week to track down all the pieces of such a quilt.[/quore] It would take more than time because I have not said what you think I said. When I speak of democracy I do not mean the US, except when speaking of something about democracy that the US did get right. And for sure I am horrified by US capitalism and we need to replace the autocratic model of Industry with the Democratic model. It would help if you asked questions instead of assuming what I mean.
— Vera Mont

Democracy is a way of life that is based on Greek and Roman classics.
— Athena

Yes, you've said, on several occasions.

I keep waiting for discussions to be about democracy as a way of life, and they never do. It is like no one gets the concept. The discussion I would like to have can not move forward when what I say is just words without meaning.

And a code of laws based on the biblical commandments meshed together with English common law, on the foundation of a fatally flawed constitution and electoral procedure. — Vera Mont

Now that could become a discussion about our way of life. I really wish we would get Christianity out of our culture. And I much prefer the Greeks to Rome. The US aspires to be like Rome more than it aspires to be like Athens. This is about culture, not politics. Where does our conscientiousness come from? As powerful as Rome with Christianity was, it still fell.

What are the fatal flaws of the US Constitution?

Tocqueville saw some problems and warned the US would become a despot in his 1830 book "Democracy in America". I am open to examining the flaws.

I'm not recommending a book. Your proposed book is fine - so long as it has lots of company from different perspectives. I'm recommending - warning - an adjustment of mind-set. All the times you've taken for granted that Americans were/are "the good guys" in a conflict; :gasp: all the times you've advocated, directly or indirectly, for American-style capitalism; :gasp: all the the usual accepted fictions... it's not deliberate; it's habitual. People need to develop a new habit: questioning the old verities. — Vera Mont

Would you please copy and paste what I said that lead you to think what you think?

Democracy is a way of life that is based on Greek and Roman classics. Basic to that way of life is secular thinking. The God of Abraham religions are not compactable with democracy because in a democracy there is no God with favorite people. Instead of fear of learning that is tied to fear of Satan and displeasing a God, in a democracy life long learning is an essential part of participating in politics and being a good citizen. There are fundamental differences separating church and state!

"Democracy is a way of life and social organization which above all others is sensitive to the dignity and worth of the individual human personality, affirming the fundamental moral and political equality of all men and recognizing no barriers of race, religion, or circumstance." (General Report of the Seminar on "What is Democracy?" Congress on Education for Democracy, August 1939)" From the 1941 "Democracy Series" of books for the grade schools.

I can't see that at all. Perhaps I would have fought with them/for them against the Romans, but that's about it.
As a Scot, I see little to admire regarding the Saxons or/and the Angles, that hailed from that place and along with the Norman French, eventually formed England. Prussia was quite an ugly civilisation as was WWI and WW2 Germany. Almost as ugly a grouping as the Spartans imo. — universeness

Oh my God, I love what you said. Now if I win the lottery I will have to travel to your part of the world and stay there long enough to absorb history from your point of view. But at the moment I only know my point of view gleaned from books, and we have an agreement about Prussia. Charles Sarolea's book written just before the first world war "The Anglo-German Problem" says the Prussians are very unpleasant people. However, The Prussians who were like the Spartans for the same reason the Spantans were unpleasant, are not the whole of Germany. Spartans and Prussians were as they were for geological reasons. Neither had enough good farmland.

But the rest of Germany had the geology that makes life in the US good. Mild climates and plenty of good farmland. These people are artistic, congenial, and good neighbors and it really worried Sarolea that they left government up to the Prussians who were not nice people. And love, it is what I know of these people's differences that presses me to write about the importance of culture. Sarolea said the Prussians did not have a culture but were as an army always ready for war. It is the Prussian military order that has made the US what it defended its democracy against. The US adopted the Prussian model for bureaucracy and the German model of education. With our institutions model after Germany's institutions is it any wonder Trump has enjoyed the popularity of Hitler? But now I am pissing into the wind because if there are any US citizens who see what I see, I have not come across them. We are all like the Germans who let Prussia have control.

This thread being about culture is good for speaking of the Scotts who made a huge intellectual contribution to the US and the formation of its rebellion against the English. They especially influenced Jefferson during his school years and made Jefferson intensely focused on the importance of universal education if we were to have a strong and united Republic. Our liberty was dependent on that education and following WWII, we totally replaced that education with the German model of education for technology for military and industrial purposes. Now we struggle to control citizens with law and law enforcement and some states have gone as far as rewarding citizens who report on their neighbors! And we are clueless about what has gone so wrong.

I didn't say anything about how much you, personally, know about what aspect of history. I'm merely warning that, regardless what else is taught in their schools, as long as Americans lull themselves with mythical versions of their story as a nation, their national identity and character; as long as they keep telling those stories to their children, and do not correct the inaccuracies, fallacies, misconceptions and outright fictions in their own understanding of their own history; as long as they refuse to come to terms over what's dysfunctional in their social system and why, nothing in their perilous present situation will improve and there are strong indications that it will deteriorate, and at an accelerating pace.
(and this applies equally to other nations that are not under consideration here) — Vera Mont

Let's see I think I made a derogatory comment about HIS STORY and referred to a few problems in our past that continue to plague the US and absolutely what you said is correct. I just think it is important to begin the history of democracy with Athens and Sparta.

I have a lot of old textbooks because I want to see the past of our education, and some history books are soo boring it is cruel and inhuman punishment to make children read them. Only one of these old history books presents history with a more humanities approach. But boy, is that one inaccurate by today's standards however, it at least it begins with a mention of ancient times, and that is where a history book for democracy must begin.

That is, we can national history books but that is not exactly what I think we need. We need to learn of the history of democracy and how the understanding of it changed. Every, every important to me, is a more scientific understanding of creation, and this is compatible with logos and the idea that land animals evolved from fish. I want a book that punishes for understanding the importance of morals and the Greeks understood morals. Moral is to know the Law (universal law/ logos) and good manners. This needs to be developed into what good reasoning has to do with being a democracy.

The history book you recommend has merit. But my way could result in better understanding without all the pushback that is happening now with history that increases awareness of our wrongs. Our public broadcasting station is doing a good job of increasing awareness of our wrongs. That is a history book for democracy.

From all of the days of your life Athena, what events/realisations/empathy/anger/shame/joy do your remember most? — universeness

:heart: Oh, my love, I love that question and will say it is probably my teacher grandmother and world wars and the depression, through the 1960's and the technological transition today. :down: I would so love to say more but I am out of time:cry: PS Germany is our soul mate and historic partner who manifests our present more than our historical past.

Whereas, it wasn't even remotely about religion or any kind of moral principle. (Lincoln: "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that.")
The real issues were political and economic. And this fundamental, foundational schism was built into the original federation by those very same men who signed that document which began as idealistic and wound up as fraudulent. That expedient compromise has cost a whole lot of powerless people a whole lot of blood and pain and grief. — Vera Mont

Wow, I so appreciate your explanation of history and I wish we had the history of inclusive equality to go with that. I am afraid we are working with a false understanding of indigenous people and our animal nature which is evolved from it. We are by nature tribal. We are doing good to remember the names of 500 people and something about them such as who they are related to. For us to live in larger groups is pretty amazing. It is not our nature that makes that possible but our intellect overrides our nature. What is the story we tell ourselves about who to include as one of us and who is not one of us? That story is the foundation of culture.

Not merely encouraged but often mandated by the elite, who sent many of their own children to Europe for their education. The FF's had had that classical education themselves. https://www.memoriapress.com/articles/classical-education-founding-fathers/
and did nothing to enable their fellow Americans.[/

That goes back to the story of who is one of us and who is not. The Iroquois were willing to be one of us because the culture recognized the benefit of getting along and not all tribes have done so. In some areas of the world, cannibalism was practiced. That is a pretty serious notion of who is one of us and who is not. Closer to home, how did the Europeans think? In ancient times, the Greeks took control of a region with Jews and they had a terrible fight because the Greeks based hiring on merit and the Jews were totally locked into inherited positions. Our democracy is a new social order, Not the social order of the Bible. The philosophy behind democracy does not go with the notion that God determines who will be masters and who will be slaves/servants and Europe was Christian with a hierarchy of power and authority, NOT a democracy.

Today many Christians believe in a super-loving God, not the jealous, revengeful, fearsome, and punishing God of our European history. I am saying these things because you mentioned the FF and the rich sending their children to Europe to be educated. I think we need to understand the mentality of the past, to understand our present clashes of values and how to manifest a better nation. I also want to point out, Thomas Jefferson devoted his life to mass education, believing that was the only way to have a successful democracy.

We might keep in mind, Martin Luther thought God decided who would be a master or a slave. Look we had a famous Black man named Martin Luther King. KING?! That is not a democratic concept and the Bible is a book of kings and slaves. It is a different understanding of reality than the secular Greeks who gave people jobs based on merit. We are just beginning to attack this ugly problem with talk about how the privileged and how that privilege is undemocratic and does not manifest the ideal of equality.
We are trying to have a democracy without a good grasp of people not being born to rule over others, but bred to have the position of power and authority.

This is not the peaceful democracy we defended in two world wars,
— Athena

Of course not!
Aside from the fact that America didn't actually need to defend itself in either of those wars (Hawaii wasn't a state then; it was occupied territory)
that peaceful democracy never existed in the physical universe.
1775–1783 American Revolution English Colonists vs. Great Britain
1798–1800 Franco-American Naval War United States vs. France
1801–1805; 1815 Barbary Wars United States vs. Morocco, Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli
1812–1815 War of 1812 United States vs. Great Britain
1813–1814 Creek War United States vs. Creek Nation
1836 War of Texas Independence Texas vs. Mexico
1846–1848 Mexican-American War United States vs. Mexico
1861–1865 U.S. Civil War Union vs. Confederacy
1898 Spanish-American War United States vs. Spain
That's not including most of the campaigns against First Nations and all the little secret and overt interventions in other nations' colonial conflicts and not even mentioning conflicts between farmers and ranchers, disputes over water rights, labour wars,
In the 1800s and early 1900s, picketers often faced the risk of being beaten up by police or thugs recruited by management. “The U.S. has one of the most violent labor histories in the world,” says Judith Stepan-Norris, police violence against protesters of every kind... and then there's all the gangs and outlaws.

A reminder the guardians of truth are confusion and paradox. While the list of violence can be used to argue we have never had peace, it can also be argued the US was nothing like the Military Industrial Complex it is today. We held a sense of destiny but like Israel, we had limits. For the most part, we depended on the oceans to prevent us from being attacked and we were totally unprepared for the world wars. The military technology of WWII and the need for oil, changed all that. I think to deny the Military Industrial Complex of the US today is extremely different from our past, is a huge mistake.

[qiote] Nixon had laid some good ground-work for that, undoing whatever Johnson had been able to accomplish to mitigate the enormous gulf that had always existed and is never going away. The United States has never been anything but a figment of wishful thinking. When Bobby Kennedy was killed, the excellent film director, Norman Jewison, felt he had to leave the country, saying, "How can America be so violent that it destroys its own best people?" [/quote]

That is a delicious question. I think we are more religious than Europeans, who seem to have a better understanding of democracy serving the good of everyone, not just the privileged. Going with religion Jesus did tell his followers to sell their robes and buy swords. Also, we are not that far from the wild west where there was no established government to keep peace and order. Certainly in states that are mostly rural, people are not as sophisticated as they are in large cities. They are accustomed to being their sole authority and enforcer of authority. They are not adjusted to living with many people with many differences between them. That is, they are not "civilized". We used education to unite everyone and to a very large degree, this was achieved but the 1958 National Defense Education Act changed the purpose of education, and this is why I write of culture. We Stopped transmitting a culture that is essential to being a united and strong nation.

I'm convinced that you care deeply and passionately about education. But if you're not prepared to teach young people about their own history - the unspun, unrevised, unvarnished, unedited truth - no substantial problem will ever be addressed. You may as well leave the lobbyists, jingoists and propagandists take over.

Thank you for challenging me and causing me to think things through. I might know a little more about history than you think. Learning history by studying the history of education is totally fascinating to me. I think my whole mental organization is different from most. I am less prone to seeing history as HIS STORY and strongly favor a more sociological perspective of consciousness, how did someone become aware of that idea? How was the concept communicated to others? How was it changed as the concept move from one culture to another? How did it clash, assimilate and evolve with other concepts?

The US defended its democracy against what it is today. It is a huge error to deny that change. We come from a totally different understanding of God than we have today. It is a huge error to be unaware of that. Democracy is a new social order and it is pretty amazing Christians claim we have democracy because of it being God's will, and they defend God's will. But Christianity supported kings and slavery.

History is a perspective, and if I completed a school book for democracy, I would begin with Athens. I lack the motivation to do that because I don't think Christians would choose such a book for the education of their children. But that is where the history of our democracy needs to begin and that history needs to include the Native American Federation which was a model for our federal government, instead of a kingdom being our model for our government.

think you would need to go back to the single celled organism, co-operating with various bacteria and creating a symbiosis which still exists today. Those cells exist in humans, so from that angle, cooperation plays a big role in why we exist at all. — universeness

I love that explanation! I see how it goes with an understanding of logos. We can discover the laws of the universe with science. And then with our knowledge of logos, we can have rule by reason and live together symbiosisly with peace and the good for all.

But to achieve that we need to work with an understanding of logos and what it has to do with democracy. That is not explained in the Bible and leaving moral training to the church is problematic. Unlike the single-celled organisms going with the flow without opposing opinions, humans center their choices on self-knowledge and competition for finite resources and they can go against the flow. We have to intellectually understand the benefits and reality of symbiosis before we can put that in our lives.

Yes, the US started with exactly that understanding.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
They just found it expedient never to implement it. — Vera Mont

Oh my goodness what a delicious argument. The South used the Bible to defend slavery. Both the North and the South thought they were defending the will of God, making the civil war a very deadly war. Even Quakers had a history of having slaves, but they came to see this as wrong and took a stand against it. The Quakers refer to the New Testament and ignore the Old Testament. The Old Testament justifies slavery. The Old Testament is a tribal religion where only Jews could not be slaves because of their relationship with God, but they could own slaves. Later Romans made Christianity a national religion that Judaism could never become.

In the beginning of US democracy, there was a high illiteracy rate, especially in the rural South. Also, the education that really matters for democracy is literacy in Greek and Roman classics. That would be higher education and extremely few would have that.

Without education for democracy, we can not manifest the culture for democracy. To this very day, there is a lot of disagreement about men being created equal. What does that mean? The KKK was a Christian organization and it was behind lynching people of color and keeping them in their place.

White women in the South played a very strong role in promoting racism and white supremacy.

the long-standing work of white women who sustained racial segregation and nurtured both massive support for the Jim Crow order in the interwar period and who transformed support into massive resistance after World War II. Support for the segregated state existed among everyday people. Maintaining racial segregation was not solely or even primarily the work of elected officials. Its adherents sustained the system with quotidian work, and on the ground, it was often white women who shaped and sustained white supremacist politics. — Elizabeth Gillespie McRae

Before the Civil War, the North attempted to make the US a strong and united nation with textbooks published in the North and sold to schools throughout the nation. These books promoted democracy the one you see in the historical documents. The South realized what the North was doing and began printing its own textbook manifesting the culture of the South, not the culture for democracy in the North. The North and South have had distinctly different cultures and today that is very much a problem. Trump divided us as much as the Civil War and we remain glaring aware of the divide. Never in my 70-plus years did I drop friends because of political differences till Trump. I am afraid if that comes up again, we will see more violence.

A big problem is the size and wealth of Texas and its flavor of Christianity that attempts to control in favor of Christian mythology in public education. Textbook companies want Texas business so they design textbooks for the Texas market including science books that presented creationism as science equal to evolution. Teachers took the school board to the supreme court, to get religion out of the science books.
Our nation is not the united culture that Jefferson and his associates hope the US would have through education.

Here is the original Pledge of Allegiance.

"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

When the US was mobilizing against the USSR Bill Graham helped Eisenhower see how adding "God" to that could unite us against those "godless people". This is not the peaceful democracy we defended in two world wars, but is now the Military Industrial Complex it defended our democracy against. War is good for religion and religion is good for war. That was not our culture based on the Greek and Roman classics.

The age-old question is who is one of us? All social animals recognize who is one of us and who is one of them. We defend "us" against "them". Human is to include far more people as one of us, than any other group of social animals. We do this through culture.

A huge problem with leaving moral training to the Church is our human nature leads us to divide "us" from "them" and so we take a religion that us supposed to unite us and create a lot of division. Like I know God's truth and He favors me, and I am going to heaven but not you because you do not know God's truth. You are not one of us.

Although some areas of the US have not gotten the message Americans are equal no matter what color their skin or what their sexual preferences are. Coming from the Bible there is no equality and ministers must protect their sheep from the pagans and barbarians or those cursed with dark skin. :grimace: That is not the culture for democracy. But can we achieve the way of life that was taught to school children when the US mobilized for the second world war?

"Democracy is a way of life and social order organization which above all others is sensitive to the dignity and worth of the individual human personality, affirming the fundamental moral and political equality of all men and recognizing no barriers of race, religion, or circumstance." "Democracy Series".

If we had the consciousness of the past, all children would be educated for the culture that manifests democracy, and so educated they would be citizens of the US, and none without that education would be citizens with the rights of citizens. A set number of immigrants could enter each year and they could become educated in this way of life and if they passed the citizenship test they could become citizens, but this needs to be kept separate from being a Christian, you know that divisive religion that commands us to play God and take care of the needs of everyone while at the same time we stand at our borders with guns and fight to keep the immigrants out. :chin: Does that makes sense?

Bottom line, how do we determine who is one of us and who is not? Should we care for everyone regardless of their contribution to society and cost of doing so?

Under jungle rules, young females are considered property and part of 'to the victor, the spoils, rule.'— universeness

In what species? Not elephants, crows, dolphins or or cheetahs. The norm in many human situations today, of course - not so much spoils as commodities.
---Vera Mont — Vera Mont

:gasp: Maybe a better understanding of jungle rules would help.

Antagonistic relationships are found not only between animals of different species, but within species too. Intraspecific conflict occurs when the interests of individual animals within a given species conflict. This happens when there is a limited supply of a valuable resource. For example, some areas are better than others for finding food, shelter from the elements, places to hide from predatory animals, or opportunities for attracting a mate. Conflicts occur frequently because animals of the same species have very similar requirements for their wellbeing, survival and reproduction, yet their demand for those resources exceed what is available.1 Animals also compete with each other for access to mates, social status, food, and parental care. The conflict may be direct, with animals fighting each other (called “interference”) or indirect, with animals competing without fighting each other directly (called “exploitation”).2 Both forms of competition can be harmful. Fighting can result in injury or death. Even if animals aren’t directly harmed by others, they can be harmed by deprivation.

By jungle rules, Whites can enslave dark-skinned people, and kill those who do not stay in their place. The US did not begin with the understanding of being born equal and equality under the law as we have today. Not all of the US agrees on who has rights and who does not. That is an intellectual decision and jungle rules are for lesser animals.

Humans are not equal to ants or dinosaurs. And while modern-day horses pass on a culture to the young, humans and horses are not equals. Horses and other mammals are known to teach their young proper behavior, but their heads don't get full of arguments about good and bad and where do my rights end and yours begin. That is, humans have the potential for being intellectual and other mammals do not. That makes getting along much, much more difficult for humans.

I would like us to have a good understanding of visceral, relating to deep inward feelings rather than to the intellect. I will venture to say, all mammals can learn through sensations of reward and punishment. The Behaviorist Method for training children can be used for training dogs, but we do not give our dogs citizenship responsibilities. The US replaced the Conceptional Method with the Behaviorist Method and now we have some very serious social problems! This makes me go a little crazy when someone says something that could mean there is not a huge difference because humans and other animals.

So when a pony is misbehaving the mother may prod the pony, stirring a bit of an uncomfortable feeling. The mother does not give her young long explanations about good and bad behavior, but we give our children lots of lectures and we do a lot of explaining, or at least I hope most of do. Verbal communication is about reasoning and it is what makes us political animals. Because we can communicate with words, we have rule by reason as opposed to rule by authority over the people. People who don't understand this may think a gun is a good communication tool, or bombs and economic warfare are good political tools. Like there are some people who do not understand democracy at all but think life is just one big power game. Unfortunately, we even make those power game players our presidents, because have lost an understanding of democracy as rule by reason, and boy are we in a mess.

Unless we have education for intellectual development, we do not have education for the culture that is essential to democracy. Dinosaurs and ants do not require that education.

This seems to be a very obvious truth but the truths that apply most widely are often the most obvious, even though they remain a 'struggle' for most humans alive today. Sure, it's not JUST about water, but its ALSO about water. The biggest truth about culturalism is that it does not affect your need for water, food, shelter, warmth, etc. All people from all cultures have identical basic needs. — universeness

But our understanding of reality is not identical. Some believe we have a spiritual duty to protect the earth, and some do not. For me, this an extremely important disagreement about reality.

In fact, those basics are needed by all fauna on the planet.
People mostly war over basic resources. But the nefarious want to be 'EXCESSIVELY RICH,' in resources. They don't want a little gold, they want to be surrounded by gold and be recognised as 'god like' and have every whim serviced and own an excessive glut of all resources and have every urge satisfied and be loved and feared by everyone, etc etc. It's either YOUR WAY or there will be HELL TO PAY!

That is a cultural reality but there is also cultural opposition to it. Native Americans and other indigenous people.

Somewhat, but what is more important, is the basic understanding that Planet Earth has plenty of water. The rest is just bad behaviour.

I will trust the Native Americans with the answer. I join them in spiritual reasoning and oppose Christianity in part because it denies spiritual truth as I understand it.

Another obvious but absolutely great, vital question. MY HONEST answer is to do EXACTLY what we are doing now, 'keep fighting the good fight to make things better.'

Thank goodness for this forum that makes that possible.

War is the survival of the fittest strategy that was an imperative under jungle rules, but we discovered that it's not the only way to survive. We discovered that co-operation and negotiation, CAN produce better results for all stakeholders. But the nefarious want INSTANT gratification and permanent recognition of their superiority under the traditional jungle rules. We continue to struggle against them and I think we have been gaining ground against them for the past 10,000 years.
The progress has been very slow and it will probably continue to be so, but imo, success is inevitable.

We have praised the Spartans for their warrior society and somehow fought to add, the Spartans' worst enemy was themselves and they failed because they could not produce enough children to keep Sparta alive. That choice to praise Sparta is a culture choice. The choice to imitate Rome and Germany is a cultural choice. Why are we making these cultural choices instead of adopting Native American spirituality and putting the earth first?


What are the fundamental beliefs that make our lives good?
— Athena
What do we want that future race to know so they have the best chance of manifesting a good life for our planet?
— Athena
We need a better belief system. Any idea of how to construct that?
— Athena

I think these questions are for each of us to answer individually. I can give you the core of my answers.
Socialism and secular humanism and the details involved in them would make up the core of my answer to all 3 questions above. I have not came across any better labels for what I think would be a 'better way' for humans to live and treat each other.

Those must be a united choice because individuals can not make the differences that need to be made.

How about education for the humanities and insisting on worshiping our Mother Earth and taking care of her and planning for the future of our nation and making the well-being of our planet and children our primary concern? We need to continue this communication and explore what agreements we have.

If humanity is unified under single government, meaning no wars between nations, then anyone who would oppose such government could easily be declared as terrorist or terrorist group.

Doesn't sound like a good idea. — SpaceDweller

I totally agree it is not a good idea. Diversity is very important to progress and it is good to have communist nations, socialists, and monarchies so we can see what works and what does not.

Germany was our world war enemy and the US have adopted our enemy's model for bureaucracy and model of education for technology and philosophy and is now what it defended its democracy against.
There are some improvements and so problems. We have fought every war for nothing if we do not become aware of those changes.

It was the communist who began income taxes and it was the communist who "liberated" women first. A fully employed population is good for the economy, and those women who are "just housewives" and not good for the economy.

PS it was not gays who destroyed family values. Some of those gays are doing a better job of preserving family values than non gays.

Our judgment? We sat on our hands and allowed it to be taken away. Now we're stuck with the results and if we try to do anything about it we are loudly scorned by the fools we elected or the fools they appointed and by those of us who are sworn to protect and serve.

Sometimes I wonder if we are all suffering from some kind of mass hypnosis. — Varnaj42

I explain the problem differently. I do not think we have a good understanding of how we think and have taken too much for granted. We were sold education for technology that is destroying the culture we had. We are no longer preparing the young for democracy and liberty. We are not preparing them for independent thinking. We stopped educating the young for good moral judgement and good citizenship. It is my hope if we understand we must learn how to think logically before we can think logically, and that locial thinking is directly associated with good moral judgment, we return to that education to make our democracy strong and moral.

If we replace the autocratic model of industry with the democratic model and return to education for democracy, our democracy could be better than it ever was. That is really fundamental to the manifestation of democracy and having healthy families.

In a way, we are all suffering a kind of mass hypnosis. We have no understanding of the importance of the rediscovery of Greek and Roman civilizations and how that took us out of the dark ages and back on track to evolving our human potential. I think Christianity is one of the strongest factors in destroying the necessary education because Christianity wants all the credit for all the good and it promotes ignorance, especially in Texas where it has a strong influence on schools. But the military is for sure the strongest factor for preparing our young for the Military Industrial Complex and bankers are another layer of the problem, insisting a population be prepared to serve industry before the community receives loans.

Who cares about democracy, not politics, but democracy as a way of life? What are the principles of democracy? How is it manifested? What does culture have to do with the good life, democracy, liberty, and justice for all?

As I said, I also see the disadvantages of uniformity, even though I don't view them as extreme as you do. — Jacques

I don't think the problem is uniformity but the total opposite. We have no culture unifying us.

but given the nature of human beings, it doesn't seem possible to me — Jacques

Different cultures mean different expressions of our human nature. To simplify this concept the Hopi are the opposite of the Apache and this difference begins with child-rearing. Cannibalism is another cultural expression and it is taboo to our Western consciousness. I think we need to be very careful when we talk about human nature. I am good with classifying humans as social animals and seeing their commonalities in that way, but I think things like being aggressive or non-aggressive are a matter of culture.

Some Native American cultures shun individuality in favor of identifying with the tribe. I understand this as individuals in the family thinking as though they have very little connection with the family, or members of the family behaving as though family is more valuable than their individuality. This could be what you mean by conformity? Right now my family has one estranged member who is very hostile to the notion of behaving as part of the family. I think our culture has promoted the destruction of family and increased dependency on authority over the people. This has increased our differences and antagonism. There is a difference in what you mean by conformity. Members of the family can be very creative and different without alienating themselves from family.

That last site asks for a donation before a person can know anything about it.

The following link explains recycling water and probably is the best way to go.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_reuse_in_California#:~:text=Water%20reuse%20in%20California%20is,economy%20and%20population%20to%20grow.

The future will probably be a combination of distillation and recycling water.

The efforts to save the Colorado River are huge.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2023/05/23/colorado-river-deal-water-cuts-explained/

Around the world major rivers are threatened and may die. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-wwf-rivers/many-major-rivers-are-in-danger-of-dying-wwf-idUSL1957773520070320

We have to rethink our reality and our role in the health of our planet. Indigenous people around the world have struggled to protect our planet and their little space of it. This is surely a cultural matter.

↪Vera Mont Thanks but I don't call what we have now an existential threat. I call it a leadership crisis. We allow ourselves to be led by fools. — Varnaj42

Why do we do that? What happened to our judgment?

You're right, there would be disadvantages, (I love diversity too) but I think the advantages would outweigh them. — Jacques

What is the advantage of being meaningless and powerless, no more than a part plugged into a mechanical society, no more needed than another identical part?

What would a one-world government govern? How would it be organized?

That reason tends to make better decisions than emotion? Sure.
What kind of trouble? Is there a child in the river? It's better to get into a boat than jump in and try to swim after him. Because you — Vera Mont

I don't think so. There is already one about pie. It's a big, contentious issue. People's attitudes are largely formed by their own relative comfort. The casualties and collateral damage don't get to participate - only the beneficiaries. Doesn't seem fair. — Vera Mont

can row faster than you can swim and if you pull him into the boat there is a better chance of one or both of you surviving than if you try swimming against the current with one arm, and weighed down.

Can you test that? — Vera Mont

Did your brother-in-law get into debt again? It's better to figumotivation of the computer doesn't alter the math, either.re out the reasons for his financial mess than lend him yet another $500. Because that motivation of the computer doesn't alter the math, either.way, you can help him break the cycle of mismanagement, and you save both your money and your relationship.

The motive is emotion. How we act on it is reasoning. I am just saying that emotion is a necessary part of the equation.
It might be better to charge your

Self-aggrandizement, usually. But that doesn't affect the fact that they base decisions on mathematical calculatimotivation of the computer doesn't alter the math, either.an on.

I don't think so. There is already one about pie. It's a big, contentious issue. People's attitudes are largely formed by their own relative comfort. The casualties and collateral damage don't get to participate - only the beneficiaries. Doesn't seem fair.
Why would you think a generals motivation is aggrandizement? That may be true for some but I hardly think that is what motivates all generals. No one would willing follow such a general and without followers there not be leaders. A leader must engender a high sense of morale. Morale is what we feel when we believe we arIt might be better to charge your e doing the right thing. Or how about virtues are strength. A general must be virtuous. I am now talking about why we need to rely on humans and not technology. The right values bring out the best in all of us and we need to depend on each other for the best results.

Can yomotivation of the computer doesn't alter the math, either.an u test that? — Vera Mont

A better understanding of capitalism is necessary to answer your question. Research requires money and one of the most important functions of capitalism is providing the capital required for research. Another important function of capitalism is inmotivation of the computer doesn't alter the math, either.an creasing the wealth of small investors. That is to spread the wealth throughout the population and when this happens the standard of living improves.

It doesn't need a better life; it is content and has no reason to prevent us improving our lives. And it can help us achIt might be better to charge your ieve that, as moguls have not done. — Vera Mont

Yes, we need to rely on emotional humans. Moguls have not done what? How do you figure a computer that does not care will improve anything?

The human race is NOT DEAD YET! — universeness

I really need that positive kick in the butt because I got so bummed out when looking into the water situation and getting sidetracked by what Israel is doing. I hate Israel and the Christian support of it at the expense of Palestinians.

We need to reach into our imaginations and imagine a better reality and how we might achieve it. Buddhism focuses on compassion and that is so important but it is not the answer. I like Confuseousism but Confurseous was a chauvinist and that is not acceptable. Science without education in ethics and morality is not the final answer either.

I have given thought to the end of life as we know it and what might we preserve for an unknown future that may once again raise a civilization. What do we want that future race to know so they have the best chance of manifesting a good life for our planet?

I agree that we have had much diluted versions of what might qualify for the governance label 'democracy' but none in history or now that satisfies the level of democracy we need, imo.

I don't refute your sources or what they say, I am just complaining, that what they called democratic, stretches the valid use of the label a little to far for me. — universeness

I have to get back to my happy feeling and I was feeling very happy when you disputed the good of Athens democracy. That triggered what I have read of more equal and peaceful civilizations. There were contemporary civilizations that were doing better when it comes to equality and peace. However, I think Athens' philosophers gave us great intellectual gifts such as mathematical proofs and a comprehensive system of logic. The concept of atoms and evolution have proven useful. The notion that because we can learn and we think we are capable of self-government is essential to our way of life and it is not compatible with religions. Help me here.

What are the fundamental beliefs that make our lives good? I am still working on having a better understanding of Hinduism. But it kind of fell off the track with its reincarnation reasoning that justified a caste system However, I don't think the Hindu caste system is worse than the class systems of Christian Europe. A modern understanding of the effect of different parenting methods and the difference in resources and the effect of trauma on children is superior to religious notions, but we still rely more on religion than science when it comes to what we believe about human nature.

We need a better belief system. Any idea of how to construct that?

No, I usually have it alone - unless you count Madam Secretary.
Anyway, it's hard to drink through an N95 mask disguised as a parrot's beak. (But it makes little children in the supermarket giggle.) And I'm cheerful most of the time. I've done regretting my species - just enjoying what's left of my life. — Vera Mont

I am not sure I know what you are saying, but I woke feeling great physically and mentally great, and then the subject of desalination threw me into a terrible state of mind, making me think I can relate to "regretting my species". We have the ability to create Eden and instead, we are destroying our planet and escalating war.

The subject of this thread is culture and only when our culture for democracy is transmitted by education can we manifest it. The Military Industrial Complex and bankers should NOT have control of our education.

Do you think human scientists are able to design a 'not for profit,' global irrigation system that works and fully benefits and assists the planets ecosystem and all flora and fauna, that exists on and in the planet (including humans)? — universeness

It sure it would be nice if we were willing to put as much effort into that as we have put into war. But the Trump administration’s peace plan totally disregarded Palestine's'need for water. Isreal had control of Palestine's water supply and was not giving Palestine enough water for their health needs, so Palestine has built distillation plants, and Isreal has pushed into the desperately needed land and water supply and built a community named after Trump to encroach on the little land Palestinians need for the water supply.

Have you looked into distillation efforts around the world? This is not normally a philosophical subject but it is a very serious one in today's world. It is not just about water but people's struggles for their lives and war! The US has been building enemies and I do not know how to address this philosophically but surely it is something we should address.

:cry: What we are doing in this world is so different from the possible reality some of us imagine. How do we deal with this? I would say most Americans are clueless about the Palestinian struggle for the land they remember owning, and they struggle for the enforcement of treaties just as Native Americans did when they were pushed into reservations. I got to take a deep breath. I wish we didn't open this Pandora's box about water.

You wrote of possible civilizations that did live in peace without war and that is only sane. War is complete insanity. We for sure have a God of war, David's God is a God of war. Whereas the Hindus have a mythology that supports peace not war. It begins with a terrible war and a determination to avoid that. Those of us with a God who has favorites and a claim to God-given land and war are not doing so well. The different mythologies result in different cultures.

I believe our democracy made the US a very loved nation and that we have gone about destroying that and making the world a less safe place because our schools stop transmitting the culture we had and education for the Military Industrial Complex of our enemy.

I have repeatedly heard distilling water is very expensive. Also it would overwhelming to depend on it for farming or keeping a forest alive. Now if we focused on turning the whole planet into an Eden, we might create an amazing reality, but for some reason that just isn't what Christians attempt to do. Maybe they are afraid of offending God by taking over his work?

Look at what the people of India and Rome did with toilets and Aqueducts. We can do better. Why don't we do better? Maybe dependency on God leaves us with a lack of motivation?

I don't refute your sources or what they say, I am just complaining, that what they called democratic, stretches the valid use of the label a little to far for me. — universeness

I totally agree with you, but if we had education for democracy and replaced the autocratic model for Industry with the democratic one, then we have a more fully democratic reality.

I think people will fight much harder when they believe in the cause they are fighting for and not because they have been bribed by money or promises that may or may not be honoured. Mercenaries were never liked by any side of a conflict. There IS often NO alternative to defending against an invader.
I disagree that if the Persians had conquered and subsumed Greece completely into their empire, that the world would be much different, than it is today. Democracy would have still risen to something similar to where it is today. Perhaps only some of the names and prominent stories would change.
Maybe the middle east would be more prominent today that the West but i don't think that would matter much.

I doubt that if democracy would have risen because I don't think the philosophy for it would have risen. However, the more I think on this, the more interesting the possibility gets. There are matriarchies and in a matriarchy, there is more sharing of power than patriarchies. Men just seem strongly bent in favor of hierarchies, masters, and those subject to the masters. Christianity is soaked in that mentality. Some churches broke away from that but I don't think they are the most popular or powerful churches.

I broadly agree with the content of your quote immediately above. I would just not use the Greek civilization, as any kind of important part of the curriculum of increased (free) education opportunities, you rightly suggest, are required to help build a better future for all.

:love: I love what you said because there is another country that was a contemporary of the Greeks who appear to have had much more equality shared by men and women. The only reason I can think of for us not knowing more about them is they must not have written much and did not have libraries like other civilizations. Spartan women had much more freedom than Athenian women. From a woman's point of view Athens have a terrible social order. But with all that said, I think the Greeks had an intellectual superiority.

I love what you said because the subject deserves our attention. How much do you know of other civilizations? Do have an interest in geology which can give us a better understanding of the physical factors that influence humans differently. Like to me, you just opened what looks like a really good puzzle to put together. :grin:

I don't recognise that one Athena? Any more memory of its storyline? — universeness

Nope that is it and I was horrified to think such a thing could happen, but it is happening to our own planet. Our groundwater situation is very bad and when plants do not have the advantage of underground water, unless there is plenty of rain, you get a desert. I think of that Star Trek show when something triggers my awareness of the growing water problems around the world.

Okay. And how does Aristotle etc. relate to a linking of materialism with militarism in a society? — Vera Mont

I hope you really care about his opinion because I found a really good explanation of it. Follow this link and go to page 79. I can not copy and paste it, but it contains more information on the subject than I have come across before. I enjoy the information at this link.

Yeah, Firefly was really good. Serenity was ok. Most of the human dilemma's covered in Firefly were also depicted in varied ways in B5, Star Trek, Star Wars, Stargate, BSG, V, etc. I enjoy the varied ways the writers depict common human dilemmas, in a futuristic framework. — universeness

I particularly remember the Star Trek show about a planet with extremely little water and one tree that someone watered. Maybe that was the tree of forbidden fruit? :chin:

Oh no, all those things are normal. :yum: We can not change the way we live because it would hurt the economy. Like these disasters and wars for resources don't hurt our economy? Sometimes I think reports of human intelligence are highly overrated, but what can be expected of a culture with a God who made humans special from all the other animals and who is a servant to their prayers, giving them whatever they want without limit? Besides these abnormally warm days in May are much better than cool, rainy days. The bugs seem to be very happy with this warm weather. :grin:

I'm doing the part I feel capable of doing. At this time of life, that doesn't amount to much: feed stray cats, grow tomatoes, reduce my carbon footprint, and write books.
And fcs, stop blowing on me! — Vera Mont

Write books? What is your subject?

Whoops time to go. I get a lot from the government, so I feel obligated to give back by volunteering, and frankly, I don't know how long I keep doing this. At my age medical problems have increased my maintenance cost and Medicare is covering them. I owe my country a lot.

Indeed. And the US one has improved its provisions for equality of citizens under the law. But it has not guaranteed translating those improvements into a steady improvement law-enforcement, social services or political access to all citizens equally. It has not resulted in a consistent improvement in leadership over time. The arc of that history is all over the place, not upward. — Vera Mont

I think this failure is all the non-democratic things going on and number one is we stopped transmitting the culture for democracy. We are powerless if we do not understand the ramifications of adopting the German model of bureaucracy and the German model of education for technology, and dropping classical philosophy in favor of German philosophy. You know Hegel and the nation is God and all must be forced to obey the state and Nechzie supermen who have the right to violent rules because they are so superior.

The change in bureaucracy gives government much more power than it had before the change, but, this power to take care of the people, also takes away their power. The change in education goes with the change in the new bureaucratic order because we no longer rely on strong individuals and great leaders, but instead, we have committees that set policy and from there everything is controlled by policy. This creates a headless beast. Nothing can be done without an act of Congress.

Now we all our institutions are organized by German models and we prepare citizens to rely on authority and obey. Education is preparing the young to fit into the mechanical society they have become.

Tocqueville, the despot that Christian democracies would become.

After having thus taken each individual one by one into its powerful hands, and having molded him as it pleases, the sovereign power extends its arms over the entire society; it covers the surface of society with a network of small, complicated, minute, and uniform rules, which the most original minds and the most vigorous souls cannot break through to go beyond the crowd; it does not break wills, but it softens them, bends them and directs them; it rarely forces action, but it constantly opposes your acting; it does not destroy, it prevents birth; it does not tyrannize, it hinders, it represses, it enervates, it extinguishes, it stupifies, and finally it reduces each nation to being nothing more than a flock of timid and industrious animals, of which the government is the shepherd.

I have always believed that this sort of servitude, regulated, mild and peaceful, of which I have just done the portrait, could be combined better than we imagine with some of the external forms of liberty, and that it would not be impossible for it to be established in the very shadow of the sovereignty of the people.

https://oll.libertyfund.org/quote/tocqueville-on-the-form-of-despotism-the-government-would-assume-in-democratic-america-1840 — Tocqueville

I suppose because I still have a tiny spark of optimism left: I still have some dim flicker of hope that if we acknowledge the truth of our times, we might still be avert the worst outcomes. It is, admittedly, a very, very small spark. — Vera Mont

There is a lot of good happening but it doesn't make news. I am blown away by how we think everyone should have a good life and all the things we are doing to assure people have that opportunity. We are not only feeding our own families but desire to feed the world. We rush in when another country has an earthquake or famine. Europeans have stopped making war on each other. And we have problems, but we also have more knowledge than ever before, and the internet that can spread knowledge very rapidly and connect us in discussions of what is so and what should be. Unfortunately, an atomic war could throw us back into a dark age. Or global warming could mean the end of reality as we know it. We do face serious problems but we also have a lot of good going on.

I prefer the definition of democracy as governance of, for and by the people. — universeness

That is from Percile's funeral speech during Athens's war with Sparta. Lincoln repeated it during the civil war. But as many love to point out, Athens had slavery and immigrants did not have citizenship rights and women did not have political power, yet Athens was a democracy, as the US was a democracy when it had slavery and women could not vote. So there is an ideal and a less-than-perfect reality?
And we have a problem coming to an agreement on what that ideal is.

You have some eccentric views of what might still be labelled as 'democratic' or 'partially democratic.'
I demand undiluted democracy and any intermediate state of affairs means the fight continues.
Promising Athenian men a vote if they role play galley slaves is not 'introducing democracy as a right in law. It's a compromise for nefarious reasons which can be removed without the democratic mandate of the entire population, just like Rode vs Wade was removed in the USA. — universeness

My information came from the book "Pericles Of Athens And The Birth Of Democracy" by Donald Kagan.

What do you think was the alternative to not defending Athens from the Persian invasions? It is not being a slave to defend against an invasion. The Athens that became the role model for democracy would not have existed if they had not successfully defended against the Persians. Unlike religion, a democracy is always evolving. This is a good thing and it can be a bad thing because change can result in problems. Change makes things unstable. Forgetting what culture has to do with democracy leaves our democracy undefended.

Tying politics to religion is very problematic and we have done that because war is good for religion and religion is good for war. The US decided to pit itself against communism and has it mobilized against communism by calling the communist godless people and building on the notion that God favors the US and the US should serve this God and we go on to fight against evil in the mid-east in complete ignorance of the economic reason for these cold and hot wars. We are no longer a nation of thinking people because we stopped preparing for that when we adopted education for technology and left moral training to the church.

If you are going to demand something, it should be education and preparing the young to be good citizens. Without that education, they will not be "democracy as governance of, for and by the people".
We should demand education for democracy and replace the autocratic model of Industry with the democratic model.

That one man is the one the entire nation, according its its acknowledged, sworn-by and much vaunted constitution, by its established electoral process, through the changes of its culture, selected to lead the whole nation and represent it among the world's nations. — Vera Mont

The interruption of the constitution changes as the culture changes.

Trump was very frustrated with the limits put on him. I am sure Bidin is dealing with a lot of frustration too. For a long time the US democracy has looked like a disaster to me, as one president things in motion for a certain outcome and the next president dismantles what the first on put in place, as Reagan dismantled the alternative energy efforts made by Carter. And Trump disbanded the organization for dealing with pandemics that Obama put in place. And none of these men acted alone but were chosen and supported by special interest groups.

The US Constitution is clear about the government staying out of special interest business but global economic and military changes have glued governments to special interest. And the one president is reacting to forces far beyond the control of anyone. Yuk, this is politics. How can we be philosophical about this? How about logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe?

I offer gun control as an example of cultural control. The reason different states have opposing points of view about gun control is they have different cultures that promote the mentality of gun ownership of oppose the mentality of gun ownership. The abortion issue is also one of opposing cultures.

How I used them was: materialistic people are concerned with possessions and social status; spiritualistic ones are concerned with the personal 'soul' or 'essence' and its relation to the supernatural. — Vera Mont

I think that is the general understanding of materialism but being materialistic or spiritual has a different meaning beginning with Aristotle.

What was Aristotle say about matter?
For Aristotle, matter was the undifferentiated primal element; it is that from which things develop rather than a thing in itself. The development of particular things from this germinal matter consists in differentiation, the acquiring of the particular forms of which the knowable universe consists.

Form | philosophy - Encyclopedia Britannica — Encyclopedia Britannica

So for Aristotle, reality is a matter of matter, not gods and spirits. That line of thinking goes with Democritus.

What is Democritus known for? Democritus was a central figure in the development of the atomic theory of the universe. He theorized that all material bodies are made up of indivisibly small “atoms.” Aristotle famously rejected atomism in On Generation and Corruption.

Democritus | Biography & Facts - Encyclopedia Britannica — Encyclopedia Britannica

That pulled the Greeks away from superstitious thinking where creation is about gods and spirits. They determined sickness and things like epilepsy occurred for physical reasons, not because gods made these things happen. Water becomes H2O, not a spirit being. Spirits do not live in trees. It goes with arguments against there being a God and Satan and angels and demons. Does that make sense? Being spiritual is believing in spirits. :gasp: But not exactly as the ancients believed in spirits. Oh dear, this is pretty paradoxical. Back to Aristotle.

Aristotle famously contends that every physical object is a compound of matter and form. This doctrine has been dubbed “hylomorphism”, a portmanteau of the Greek words for matter (hulê) and form (eidos or morphê). Highly influential in the development of Medieval philosophy, Aristotle’s hylomorphism has also enjoyed something of a renaissance in contemporary metaphysics.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/form-matter/ — Stanford

Aristotle's teacher was Plato and Plato gave us his understanding of forms. For Plato changeable earth is not the ultimate reality, but there is a realm of perfection. Plato being an important source for Christian thinking. Like the Catholic invasion of Islam's territory, lead to the West rediscovering the ancient Greek and Roman classics and the Church picked up Aristotle and Plato to support Chruch doctrine.

The Church developed Scholasticism and brought the West into the Renaissance, the return of the intellectual advancements of ancient Greek and Romans.

Wow, all that thinking is melting my brain. This thread is about culture and culture gives us our understanding of reality. Important to consider without education in Greek and Roman classics we do not have the culture that came out of the Enlightenment when educated people were literate in the classics. Christianity did not give us democracy with liberty and justice. Our democracy comes from the classics.

The word democracy means- a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.

There is not one model of democracy. All governments to varying degrees are autocratic and democratic. So the Christian dominated Republic of Germany became the enemy of the US in two world wars and we fought against the authoritarianism of Germany, just as Athens opposed the authoritarianism of Sparta. The US and the Greek city-states had slaves. Christian Europe had serfs that are the same as slaves, except serfs and sold with the land and the property rights of slaves do not tie the slaves to the land. Democratic governments can restrict who gets to vote. The US concept of equality has changed over the years and there are still pockets in the US that resist treating people of color with equality.

I am running out of time, but quick here is the story of Athens adopting Spartan democracy. It was genius to defend Athens at sea, but this also required a lot of men to row the boats, and in a sea war everything sinks so they would get no booty for their effort. Also, Athens did not have the money to pay men to get on the boats, so a deal was cut. If the men defended Athens they would get the right to vote. Economic conditions were pushing for democracy, but the need to defend Athens turned an idea into action.

After the war, Athens created government jobs, built a universtity to attract people from around the world,
they rebuilt Athen's temple that was also expected to attract people from around the world. Athena's new temple taught the world of democracy with statues and pictures. This was a whole new relationship of the gods and a new relationship for the people. You may remember the gods battle with each other and threw each other out of power just as humans did, but with the temple of Athena comes rule by reason.

Alot of this was extremely different from Sparta, but it was brought on by war and adopting the democratic part of Sparta's organization for war. Athens did not take care of everyone as Sparta did, but Athens did all in its power to provide opportunities and improve the economy. If we understood such things perhaps we would also increase opportunities but not give everyone welfare. Some members of society need help but we have taken that too far.

Except single parents could be considered working people and we might pay more attention to the well-being of children. Someone has to care for the children and the children and their caregivers have needs that must be met.

That would apply more to Athens, which was both, than Sparta, which was militaristic, but ... um... more spartan in lifestyle. they outlawed currency and their top virtues were equality (among citizens), military fitness, and austerity.
Meanwhile the Celts were warriors, mercenaries, traders and explorers, farmers and crafters, more given to luxury in personal adornment than in public show.
I wouldn't call any of the cultures more 'spiritual' than any other: they all had their supernatural beliefs, values and loyalties. — Vera Mont

You may have being spiritual confused with religion? Being materialistic is not lusting for things. Being materialistic is believing everything is matter, meaning gods and other spirits are not possible. Celts were not materialistic and neither were Greek philosophers who could conceive of the trinity of God. Christian Romans were killing each other in an argument about Jesus being the son of god or the God (the trinity). Romans did not have a word for the concept of the trinity of God so if Jesus was the son of God that would mean more than one god. There were all kinds of arguments about if Jesus was a God, when was he born or when he was baptized, or when he died. Roman kings could become gods when they died, but they were mortals when they lived. A Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three gods or three expressions of the same thing. Back in the day Christians killed each other because of that debate.

The Celts won wars because they fought with the power of their gods. They were uncivilized and undisciplined when it came to war, and they were terrifying with their screaming and yelling and assure that they had the most powerful gods.

Back in the day, people thought the people who won wars had the most powerful god. Constantine realized the power of war and god, and united the Romans with one God after he saw the sign of a cross in the sky and this God made it possible for him to win a war. :lol: That is mythology and it works wonders when you want people to carry weapons and run into each other knowing the likelihood of being killed.

Egypt had a trinity of spirit. One part of the trinity dies when our body dies. A second part of the trinity is judged and may or may not be allowed into the good life. The third part of the trinity always returns to the source and because one with the source. Everything was part of a spiritual reality. That is the opposite of being materialistic like those people who deny there is a god with angels and demons.

So, why not stick for now to comparing the Spartans with the Athenians, the Thesbians and Thebes,
Rhodes, Corinth, Argos etc. The influence of the Greek city states on islands like Crete and Cyprus.
The Trojan War etc, etc. The Romans came much later and the Spartans were more Nazi like, than even the Romans imo. — universeness

For sure being a good citizen in Sparta was very different from being a good citizen in Athens. Athens adopted democracy from Sparta a city/state that demanded strict conformity to its military needs and took care of its citizens who had nothing to do except support Sparta's military needs. However, Athens encouraged individual differences and created jobs, but not welfare for its citizens. Athenians remained fully responsible for their own well fare. Understanding the differences between Sparta and Athens may be a very important thing for people in the US to know.

Germany was the modern Sparta and the US was the modern Athens. Then the US adopted the German models for bureaucracy and education and now the US is what it defended its democracy against. Where would you like to go with this discussion of cultural differences?

I am afraid I know too little of the show to have anything to say about it, except it appears to be good mythology. Joseph Campbell, an expert on mythology, said that we need a shared mythology and he thought Star Trek was our the best mythology we had a few years ago. Your show is next in line to fill the need for mythology and reconsider our past religious mythology.

Joseph Campbell thought that when we do not have a shared mythology, we create our own mythology and use the people in our lives to fill the different roles. So we end up in psychoanalysis trying to figure out our role in our private mythologies, our personal dramas. I fell in love with Greek mythology because I saw it as a way to learn how to be my own hero when I was very vulnerable and needed to become my own hero. Which carried me forward to studying philosophy.

Mind you, when I was in the middle of my parenting years I went from being an ideal 1950's mother and wife, to "just a housewife". It was a terrible identity crash along with an economic crash and divorce. I understand all this sociologically, not politically.