This one's a disappointment (in my book, a damp squib compromise, but if he died in office, you'd have an insurrection - at best) and the last one was.... I don't know what you think, but it's no secret what I think of the last one.
So? Have you done it yet? Have you lined up all the presidents in chronological order and compared their [actual, factual] characters and achievements to trace the arc of US history?
What if you stopped thinking of what was better in the past and what's better in the present (Spoiler: they don't match) and think of the story unfolding? If US history were a long-running TV series, what would probably happen next? — Vera Mont

I don't think we share enough thoughts in common to have the slightest idea of what the other one is talking about. I sure have no idea what you are talking about or think is important. I am thinking culture and human nature. You appear to be thinking politics.

As for 'doing better' just line up all your own presidents for comparison. — Vera Mont

I am not sure that would have any value because one man does not have that much power compared to the cultures that make up the US or any nation. For me, the measure of a nation is the result of culture. What we believe is based on culture, what we do is based on culture. Basically, we are reactionary and shaped by our place and time in history. We are unconscious of why we do things, and why think as we do, and react as we do. "Know thyself" is an Ancient Greek aphorism but I don't think we are paying much attention to that wisdom. Going through life reacting without reasoning brings us to regrets.

The name ‘Celts’ is a modern name which is used to describe many tribes of people who lived during the Iron Age. — universeness

Does it matter what word we use to identify a group of people as long as the concept is understood? I am hurting with our new technological correctness. Before we had education for this, we used the "Conceptual Method" for education. Teachers were told to not fuss over the details, but to focus on the concept. This created an atmosphere where the student and teacher could strongly disagree and the student would be correct as long as s/he understood the concept. Which also goes with teaching logic and that we should never be too sure of ourselves, because we can not know all there is to know. AND I AM VERY GRATEFUL TO YOU FOR OPENING AN OPPORTUNITY FOR ME TO EXPLAIN OUR DIFFERENCE OF THE PAST. We are experiencing cultural change and things are a little rough right now.

I think it's more interesting to talk about the relations between the Greek city states and the Spartans and of course, the Persians. The Spartans for example, imo, were xenophobic Nazis of the worse kind and the Greeks not much better, especially under that hell spawn, Alexander the butcher. — universeness

You have presented facts well. May point is more conceptual, but I could not clarify the concept without your opening for me to do so. :smile: Now how do I do this within the context of the mythology of the TV show you have shared with us. Again let me say I am very grateful for your contribution to this thread. My original thought was the Greeks and Celts (maybe with a different name) shared notions of liberty and curiosity and spiritual matters, as opposed to the Romans who were much more materialist, meaning less spiritual. Ah, stumble- you have led my mind into new territory and I am realizing I do not have the words for the concept, except to say Romans were materialistic and the Greeks and Celts shared a spiritual consciousness. Hum, I am noticing there is not much difference between the words "materialistic" and "militaristic". :love: Oh my, you have opened doors of consciousness. I hope you can take further into this awareness.

I need to run and can not finish my reply. I hate being called back to mundane reality when my heart and soul are flying free in the conceptual realm. :roll:

Wishful fantasy. If the greed-driven corporate economy and the deceitful, infighting, xenophobic government of an interplanetary empire is exactly like the corrupt, deceitful, infighting, xenophobic government of ancient Assyria, where is the "better"? Where is the arc of history? — Vera Mont

I think I understand the reasoning behind your thought, but I am bewildered that we can not achieve "the better" through reasoning. I think we are proving those of the Enlighten right, that with reason we can do better. We are doing much, much better than we have done in the past, but we are at a critical point now and this has thrown us into chaos, as Athens and all civilizations have had their moments of crisis and were forced to rethink everything and evolve to new levels of complexity. We must continue as the gods, arguing until we have a consensus on the best reasoning.

And son of a gun, if we want peace, we need a president who knows better than say stupid things that piss off the leaders of violent countries. Creating ourselves as the enemy of other nations is a really stupid thing to do! and I am very disappointed in our present leader.

My goodness that was very complex. I think it definitely qualifies as myth. I wonder what the Greek gods would be like if at the time their consciousness included the possibility of spaceships and different races throughout the universe fighting for their ideologies and battling for control of humans.

I think that is exactly how the ancient minds worked in the creation of earthly god myths, except the ancients had no thought of space travel so there had to be gods they could use to express the thoughts that came to mind as their civilizations grew. We know the goddess Athena was changed when Athens entered the war with Persia and Apollo came at a time when growth was causing chaos pressuring people to think things through rather than just react to events. They were creating their movie and explaining how things happen. By "they", I mean all ancients trying to figure out how we should live together.

That is how I see things because I have written my whole life and I have had moments when I was sure I was inspired and saying brilliant things. That is how it is when we get into the creative mode. I also know the ancients invented more and more gods as they realized new concepts and an Egyptian pharaoh ordered his scribes to search the archives and figure out which of the gods is a true god. For a while a pharaoh ordered there was only one god, pissing off all the priests representing other gods. Anyway, isn't it helpful to see a modern example of thinking about the gods/aliens and humans?

The trouble is that the Star Trek prime directive was NEVER applied in our early history.
Bloody conquest was the main clarion call in the infancy of what we at some point called 'civilisation.'
The global socioeconomic complete imbalance that exists today, is a consequence of those who in the past with tech advantages, did not adhere to a prime directive, that compelled them to leave aboriginal peoples unmolested. — universeness

Universeness you may appreciate this. The Celts and Greeks got along just fine at first. Unlike the Celts and Romans. As the Celts perceived the Romans they not only made slaves of others, but they also made slaves of themselves. It would take a lot more information gathering for me to maintain a discussion of such matters but I think it is worth knowing more.

In time the Celtic population increased, leading to their migration south and wars fought to occupy new territory in the Roman/Greek region. If we think of ourselves as evolved from an ape-like creature we can perhaps be more forgiving of human behavior and maybe a bit more in awe of our desire to do better. Packs of dogs and troops of chimpanzees do not stop to question the rightness of fighting for the recourses and territory they needed. Why do expect so much more from humans?

My brain tires and it is time for me to rest. I am listening to lectures about Hinduism right now. Their epic myth that made them more resistant to war put them on a different path than the path Rome followed. My goodness there is so much to know, and my poor brain can't keep up with my desire to know.

Would you follow the Shadows or the Vorlons in the Babylon 5 universe, or would you reject them both? — universeness

I know nothing of them.

Global overpopulation is cased by factors traceable through history. The proselytizing religions had a fair amount to do with it, as did the requirement of agriculture and war machineries for cheap human raw material. Industry needed fewer workers, but a surplus labour pool kept them in perpetual competition and thus kept wages low. Unfettered reproduction in the lower classes has always served the interes of the upper classes, who kept their own relatively low, by the simple expedient of constraining their women and casting their own surplus seed to the lower classes. — Vera Mont

I love your arguments that begin with information. That advances discussion.

Now there's a typically American whopper of a historical distortion! American industry colonized the 'developable' world the same way the British had before them - with the aid of military intervention where guile and buying already corrupt officials failed. The industrialists were, at first, strip-mining everywhere for natural resources, and later for cheap, compliant labour. If the process was made easier by replacing inconvenient or unco-operative native governments, they had the means to do so. Those countries didn't become 'shitholes' by accident or the local population's efforts.
Throughout the nineteenth century and up to the 1930s,
American corporations stridently resisted local opposition
— https://www.unmpress.com/9780826319968/the-century-of-u-s-capitalism-in-latin-america/
as they secured what they wanted in Latin America, cheap labor, plentiful raw materials, and favorable business conditions. After World War II, Latin American nationalism and revolutions forced American-owned enterprises to redefine their business model throughout the region. U.S. businesses integrated themselves into local societies through direct investment in manufacturing and the creation of broad-based consumer societies eager to buy everything from Coca-Cola to Chevrolets
Here are eight of the most notorious cases of US interference in Latin America.
Nothing remotely Star Trekky! — Vera Mont

There is nothing to argue against, but I will add my perspective that never before could we feed so many people and actually have a choice to lift the level of poverty so that all have a decent standard of living. That is, today, what is possible means an increasing number of people trying to figure out how to feed the world and give everyone a decent standard of living, so they are not desperately risking their lives to get into more successful countries. The truth of our caring is real, and it was not possible in the past. Also, we know more about them thanks to modern media than we ever did. I knew relatively nothing about the rest of the world when I was growing up and I was unaware of any reason to know about the rest of the world. Today is a very different reality and we are working on figuring out how to live with this new reality.

However, in the distant past, a few people did travel and they returned with information and objects from their travels. There was some commerce and cultural transmission. Just nothing like what we have to today! In the past, I would have been too concerned about keeping my own family alive to care about people miles away. We can think of a better world because we have a better world.

Considering our businesses represent us around the world, perhaps we the people should have a say in how we are represented? That would be less of a problem if we replaced the autocratic model of industry with the democratic model. The global problem is an excellent reason to return education to education for good moral judgment. The place to start making a better world is education. We got to get people thinking about right and wrong, not just about making a profit. Truth is our reality is what we make it and we need better education for making good choices.

My apologies for the defect in my character whereby my brand of historical nostalgia fails to be myopic and pollyanna enough for your liking. Enjoy your Mother's Day, madam. — 180 Proof

Do you think we would be where we are today without the Enlightenment which spread knowledge that originated in Athens and Rome and ended rule by the Chruch and kings? Using insults to cover up an inability to use reason, is very modern.

Don't strain your arm by patting yourself too much on the back too hard.

*Myths and facts have only the most tenuous relationship.*
If you mean determine what's true and false in history, the answer is: Not always. Documents and chronicles are as often falsified as destroyed; witnesses and participants lie, or are intimidated into silence. Past facts may be unrecoverable, unverifiable. But a good many historical facts do survive; conflicting and differing records can be compared; time-lines and family lineages traced; supporting documentation found in the form of personal correspondence and journals; business ledgers, cargo manifests, registers of birth, marriage and death survive... Even quite a lot of physical evidence can be detected by scientific methods. It's painstaking, intellectually demanding work, but there are those who love it and are faithful to it.

* The word 'myth' is so frequently used to stand for falsehood or lie that it's now considered an exact synonym. It is not. A myth is a story that has been passed down in a culture through oral tradition; it may have had some basis in fact at one, or it may be a conflation of old legends; either way, they are part of the fabric of a human society; a narrative of identity and continuity; it's purpose is not and has never been to deceive anyone. I would plead for a distinction between 'myth' and 'lie'. * — Vera Mont

I believe we are in the Resurrection. Geologists, anthropologists, and related sciences are digging up the past, and it is our job to learn as much as we can and to rethink everything. Like God did not make an Eden that is big enough for all of us and that we can feed so many people is to our credit. Something that could not be achieved if humans were afraid of gaining knowledge. I was thinking of a more general agreement on what is a fact and what is a myth than the detailed judgment of truth of which you speak.

Can one group of people be superior and can this justify them exploiting those who are inferior? If some can be superior to others what are the characteristics of superiority? Socrates said if we exploit people sooner or later they become our problem. Is that true? Is there a God who has favorite people? I guess I am leaning toward debates of being ethical and moral that bring out the good instead of the bad. I am not sure if it matters what color I am, or where my family line began, but I do think it matters if we believe in creationism or evolution.

Of course, we need to know what is true because our decisions must be based on truth or the outcome will be bad. If an untruth is advanced for good reason and is truly believed to be a truth and not a lie, it is still going to lead to bad results. I would not call religious people liars but I do not agree they know the truth and there are good reasons for resolving this problem.

Well, as I've pointed out previously, I prefer 'economic democracy fortified by representative democracy' rather than our status quo laissez-faire, plutonomic, "representative democracy" (i.e. constitutional republicanism) inspired by classical Athens & Rome and established in 1789. The "group think" of "the people" – who have only ever ratified with their "morally-informed" votes the various exploitation agendas of plutocrats – was baked into the US system almost two centuries prior to the "1958 National Defense Education Act ". — 180 Proof

I think you have a spot on your body that makes you imperfect and maybe I should not attempt to reason with an imperfect person. All of Athena and all of Rome were not of one mind. Would you please stop ending discussions with statements of a perceived Roman or Athenian flaw. The Enlightenment took what was best of Athens and Rome and embraced it, opening the opportunity for us to do even better.
Can we please focus on the good?

What do you know of Deming's democratic model for Industry and the possible social and economic ramifications of replacing autocratic industry with the democratic model? I have said democracy is about how we live. What is the difference between autocracy and democracy that could have a huge impact on families and our whole social economic order?

Learning Group Think is learning how to think without learning the logic for good reasoning. It goes with reliance on authority and that reliance on authority has terrible political and social ramifications. I don't think you are understanding the bigger picture? We changed HOW we teach the young to think and made them dependent on authority and easily swayed. People have become reactionary instead of being independent thinkers, and the increase in mental health problems demonstrates what is wrong with this change.

I really like most of your list of 12 proviso's for a better world but I would change 6 to "Universal FREE education, healthcare and a guaranteed welfare level that provides basic needs, from cradle to grave."
I would change 9 to "Freedom of personal religion but no religious authority figure is acceptable."
I would change 10 to 'Respect for the rights of private property unless it was obtained by nefarious means.'
I would also remove 'freedom from search and seizure,' from your number 8, as you would be removing one of the main defences against nefarious individuals and organisations. — universeness

How about Cicero? “God's law is 'right reason.' When perfectly understood it is called 'wisdom.' When applied by government in regulating human relations it is called 'justice.” Cicero

“law in the proper sense is right reason in harmony with nature.” when all understand this “there will not be one such law in Rome and another in Athens, one now and another in the future, but all peoples at all times will be embraced by a single and eternal unchangeable law.” 4

In case everyone is not familiar with Cicero, he was a Roman statesman who studied in Athens. He is speaking of knowing logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe.

I want to throw Star Trek into this argument and the mandate to not interfere in the lives of those on other planets. As global overpopulation has resulted in a flood of people coming to US borders and overwhelming cities that are pressed to care for them, it is only logical for us to sincerely wish their own nations could meet their needs. We want the best for everyone and sent many of them our Industries believing if their economies grew commerce for everyone would get better. But let us consider the Star Trek mandate. It is impossible for the whole world to have the standard of living of the US, because this is a finite planet and that means there are limits to what we can do and for how long we can do it.

We bought off Israel and Egypt to maintain peace in the mid-east and this worked pretty well but we ignored the Muslim Palestinians and this ignorance has not gone well and other Muslim countries who want to defend the Palestinian Muslims and we come out as the evil empire and a good share of the world is turning against the US, same as the Greek city-states turned against Athens and support Sparta in the destruction of Athens.

Exactly what are our limits and what should they be, as we wish all the very best?

Ah yes, the myth of 'discernment by committee' ... — 180 Proof

Well yes, do you have a better idea? Democracy is an imitation of the gods who argued with each other until they had a consensus on the best reasoning. What follows is rule by reason. This goes with understanding logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe. These ideas are what brought us to our greatness and forgetting them, following a false god, is problematic.

Can you imagine such an attempt and such a committee. :grin:
Who would you put on such a committee? — universeness

I like what Vera Mont said.

It would have to be international - historians who have no national loyalties, or else have thrashed out their biases among their peers. It is possible for a academics to see past and beneath their own inherited mythology. Indeed, quite a few have published fat, well-documented books on the historical distortions in their own nation's identity-story.
Of course, there is a much larger number of books published with the aim of distorting it farther, to serve one faction or another. It's not easy for a the average reader to evaluate them. And, given the investment people have in - and the sacrifices they are asked to make for their country, belief in that narrative is not easily swayed. — Vera Mont

I am wondering, isn't it possible to determine what is a myth and want is a fact? Many ancient people realized they must know truth because to believe in something that is false will lead to bad results. Knowing the truth is important to democracy and our health. Believing demons make us sick and refusing to believe it is germs or believing a god will protect us from disease is not a good choice. Believing we can get away with destroying our atmosphere is not a good choice. Believing lying to the masses to be popular with them is not a good choice. Following liers is not a good choice. Following people who want control of oil, such as the invasion of Iraq, is not a good choice. These are not good choices because the consequence of bad choices is bad outcomes.

Didn't Aristotle argue if it doesn't have substance it is not real, or something like that. Gods have no substance and we can not directly experience them. We can think of a god and have a feeling that we think is a god, but how do prove that is a god and not own reaction to what we think? I once used Artmis a Greek goddess to help me get off a forested mountain but I know these gods and goddesses as concepts, not as beings. This is extremely important because only when what we believe is correct will we get good outcomes. Acting on false information results in bad outcomes.

Concerns about public misinformation in the United States—ranging from politics to science—are growing. Here, we provide an overview of how and why citizens become (and sometimes remain) misinformed about science. Our discussion focuses specifically on misinformation among individual citizens. However, it is impossible to understand individual information processing and acceptance without taking into account social networks, information ecologies, and other macro-level variables that provide important social context. Specifically, we show how being misinformed is a function of a person’s ability and motivation to spot falsehoods, but also of other group-level and societal factors that increase the chances of citizens to be exposed to correct(ive) information. We conclude by discussing a number of research areas—some of which echo themes of the 2017 National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine’s Communicating Science Effectively report—that will be particularly important for our future understanding of misinformation, specifically a systems approach to the problem of misinformation, the need for more systematic analyses of science communication in new media environments, and a (re)focusing on traditionally underserved audiences. — Dietram A. Scheufele https://orcid.org/0000-0002-9914-5407 scheufeleatwiscdotedu and Nicole M. Krause

Yes Vera, you're right. But the general population assumes that a good government will sit authority or it will have to lose its seat, due to the ones in knowledge of everything. So no intetest in politics is there because of that assumption by some. If no interest means wickedness can actually gain power and sit in power and control, then an interest in politics and political parties becomes necessary. But those who show no interest, are not anyone who will be listened to, so they just act dumb, neutral and show no interest. — Beena

Culture matters and if we do not understand that we will be dominated by those who lust for power. Democracy is about how we live and it depends on our willingness to take responsibility for living up to the following characteristics. I hope you all agree this list is better than the 10 commandments of God. It is from the grade school series "Democracy Series" "The Way of Democracy". published by the Macmillan Company 1940.

1. Respect for the dignity and worth of the individual human personality.
2. Open opportunity for the individual.
3. Economic and social security.
4. The search for truth. (this is about science and all the humanities not just reading the Bible and obeying and depending on a God like a child.)
5. Free discussion; freedom of speech; freedom of the press. (This does not include the freedom to lie nor the freedom to spread hatred because that is immoral and destructive).
6. Universal education.
7. The rule of the majority; the rights of the minority; the honest ballot.
8. Justice for the common man; trial by jury; arbitration of disputes; orderly legal processes; freedom from search and seizure; right to petition.
9. Freedom of religion.
10. Respect for the rights of private property.
11. The practice of the fundamental social virtues.
12. The responsibility of the individual to participate in the duties of democracy.

If we do not understand this way of life, our democracy is not defended. Only when democracy is defended in the classroom is it defended. Our education for technology does not defend our democracy. The military does not defend our democracy. Guns can not defend an ideology and way of life.

Ah yes, "ruled by reason" such as that of misogynistic slave cultures like Classical Greece and Rome upon which our ethnic cleansing settlers' "constitutional republic" had been founded and had legalized chattel slavery and then systemic apartheid until about a half-century ago. :brow: — 180 Proof

I love your argument and if I had a better brain I would start a thread to debate the evils of slavery. Unfortunately, my weak brain can handle only one subject at a time.

My post prior to the one with that clip ends with an emphatic Live Long and Prosper (not Make America Great Again). — 180 Proof

I do not understand what that has to do with democracy requiring education for a culture that promotes liberty and justice. You have implied something but I don't know what.

I agree 80s Trek was a dumbed down, paint-by-numbers version of the 60s Trek, but as an example of the latter's originality inspite of crass commerce considerations in contrast to the former's derivative formulaic commercialism and not an example of your "change of education in 1958" (whatever that means – Sputnik-scare? :roll: ) Both 60s & 80s audiences, for the most part, had lacked the 'classical education' of most of the creators, writers & actors of the original show so it's not surprising that the less challenging and visionary show has always been more popular, especially with under-40somethings. — 180 Proof

Thank you for clarifying your argument. Now I will clarify mine. The 1958 National Defense Education Act resulting from the Sputnik scare, came with dropping education for good moral judgment and leaving moral training to the church. That is a disaster!!! It also means replacing education for independent thinking with "Group Think" and that is the most obvious change between the original Star Trek and the New Generation. John Wayne was very much part of the American mythology and Kirk was the John Wayne of outer space. Picard is the "Group Think" captain. Can you remember the distinct difference between them? Star went from advancing our independent thinking culture to advancing the "Group Think" culture, and now add to this no concept of shared morality except the Bible.

We no longer have the culture of the Enlightenment, nor any chance of it manifesting it without education for that. I love that you speak of how much the original Star Trek relied on that cultural influence. Today colleges promote German philosophy more than they promote the Greek philosophy which is the foundation of a culture for democracy. German philosophy is not free of Christian influence. Germany was the model of a humanoid warrior species the Klingons. We now think the glory and power of God means the US and its military might, just as our world war enemy was dominated by its military. And may God, rather than reason save our sorry asses. We must not rely on independent reasoning! That is what Satan wants us to do and we must follow God not reason. You know, Eve disobeyed God and ate the terrible fruit. I must buy a gun as Jesus told us to do and defend against God's enemies. Hail Hitler/Trump. Be clear, this not about one man, but a culture changed by education. We are what defended the world against and AI will increase this reality if we continue to believe we are the manifestation of God's power and glory.

As for Scotty's gruff irritation on display in that clip, it's not with the computer per se but with his situation – being stranded out of time (75 years in the future) by accident and realizing that he was obsolete. You'd have to watch the episode titled "Relics", Athena, in order to fully appreciate the context of Scotty's forlorn mood. — 180 Proof

My post prior to the one with that clip ends with an emphatic Live Long and Prosper (not Make America Great Again). — 180 Proof

I think my understanding of Scott is correct. Not only do some of us fear we are obsolete, but that our Enlightenment past is dying along with the death of our planet. We have fought every war for nothing if we do not turn things around. We are now what we defended the world against. I hope to change this fate for our planet and that might begin with laws that reduce the use of computers and IA and protect our liberty and personal power. When I call someone, I want to have the power to control the moment, not a dam computer program or human receptionist that is programmed just like a computer. I don't think you understand Scott's irritation.

Regarding the US, our political democracy without economic democracy is a democracy-in-name-only (DINO) which, from periodic national crisis to crisis, has been dismantling itself brick by brick since 1789 by disproportionately serving Capital at the expense of Labor and Nature (both of which are in revolt: reactionary populisms and global warming, respectively).
— 180 Proof

But the arc of history for the past two centuries has been towards liberty. Women and minorities are de facto second class citizens, but they are not de jure second class citizens anymore. I was watching "In the Heat of the Night", the other day. America really has made a lot of progress in the last 60 years. How does that square with what you're saying? — RogueAI

Vera Mont — Vera Mont

I want to argue the US has lost its way and is headed for a police state if it does not awaken to the necessity of culture for social order and continues down the path of authority over the people. I think our increasing reliance on technology is destroying our liberty and that is why I started this thread.

I think Proof has a very good point about not actually having a democracy unless the Industry uses the democratic model instead of the autocratic model. During the Great Depression Deming tried to convince Industry to adopt his democratic model for industry and it refused. At the end of WW11 Deming went to Japan and taught them the democratic model and Japan went on to out-compete the US for world markets and this has very seriously hurt the US because of the loss of blue-collar Industrial jobs for the average Joe.

We would not have the divides we have today if the US had both education for democracy (culture) and it replaced autocratic Industry with the democratic model. We could have a new golden age that can not happen when few people know that is possible.

The US needs psycho-analysis just as individuals do because we are so unconscious of the past that is manifesting problems today. We began with Industry that followed England's autocratic order, and the patriarchal Bible that supported kings and slavery and made women the property of men. When a journalist interviewed pioneers who remembered our pioneer days, some women were outraged about the big fuss over slavery when their own slavery was ignored and called marriage. We can look to the Iroquois and see a very different social and economic order. Even though these people were very advanced, they faced genocide largely because of religion, greed, and patriotic/autocratic order. The Bible is not a book for democracy.

Okay we have an agreement that knowledge of matriarchies has value.

Yes. Thankfully not everyone is swayed by the belief in monetary value above all else. When it comes to the US (looking in from the outside) it does appear to hold more sway over there than in Europe. There are other differences too, and I believe it is mostly connected to a stronger sense of patriotism (which I personally dislike). — I like sushi

Money is power and I can see a problem with speaking of it as an evil. If we were a herd of sheep or buffalo we would be looking for food, instead of worrying about how to get the money to pay for it. I think I am fumbling in the effort to find the right words. Buddhism makes an issue of not allowing ourselves to be driven by desires but all of nature is driven by desires and that is not evil.

Having a good economy is important to everyone, so maybe we should give some thought to how that is possible. But, but, wow, I can not find the words for my thought, there needs to be an element of heart in our considerations of what is desirable. Who should we include and who should be excluded from our struggle to have a good life? I don't know if men ask questions like this?



I wish I had time to read another book but I don't. Perhaps you could share some of it because I think there is something I am trying to know but I can not. I need more information.

I read, settling down to be farmers was a huge shift in Hebrew morality. When they were herders they shared the land and the herds in common. When they settled into farming, the individual family took precedence. They began competing with each other for resources and this new situation demanded a new morality.

By the way, I think we are in the Resurrection. A time when the sciences are revealing the past and we have to learn from it and rethink everything so we are living as best we can with our present reality that is very different from the past.

You have, I think, successfully summarized all exchanges on the subject of all national histories and traditions. — Vera Mont

Oh brother, that is a can of worms! The problem is glaring in the relationship between Israel and Palestine. Each side of this conflict presents their children a different version of their shared history.

How about the US with resistance to people of color being represented as they want to be represented in US history books?

Your comment had a big effect on my understanding of the problem and possible solution. What if a committee made a sincere effort to determine what is myth and what is fact?

I don't want to take anything away from your affection for Machiavelli. His advice to princes has stood the test of time, But so have the works of propagandists and public relations operators, who have found ways of guiding present tense princes without having to resort to "love me or fear me" alternatives. Better to get the public to obey without them knowing too much about how they are being led about, and who holds the leash, — BC

Yipes, I do not love Machiavelli! I think he is a scoundrel and that he has reproduced the problem many times through his book. He surely should not be the model of leadership for a democracy. A democracy needs to be rule by reason, not by some clown who is an expert at manipulating people.

The point I am always trying to make is we can not have rule by reason without transmitting a culture that manifests that. My second point is education for technology prepares us to be ruled not to have rule by reason. The 1958 change in education changed our culture and the clip Proof gave us is a pretty good explanation of that. In the clip, Scott represents all of us who remember when things were different, and f**k the damn computer that has replaced a human receptionist.

Well, in comparison to ST TOS's aircraft carrier-like Enterprise, the ST TNG's Enterprise-D.is a "Love Boat"-like cruise ship. :smirk: — 180 Proof

Whoo, I had a much stronger emotional reaction to that clip than I expected.

I love the beginning with Scott's irritation with the computer wanting exact numbers and then his emotional reunion with the people he knew and the pain of this being a memory of them and not actually them and how cold and analytical Picard appears.

It was in part my irritation with the process of getting a medical appointment that motivated me to start this thread. To me the reliance on technology today is rude, and impersonal, and reduces us to complete powerlessness unless we reply with the exact code the computer wants. We have willingly given up our personal power and liberty and some are welcoming even more AI with open arms. And it isn't just AI but the compliance to its control. Interesting that they chose Scott to make the point. That is a whole different cultural factor. Spock would not get the same message across.

It would be cool to see each member of the crew take the position of Scott in that clip, and to see the many different facets of the same thing.

The problem was not, IMO, the "German model of bureaucracy" i — 180 Proof

I think you underestimate the significance of bureaucratic order. Kings had nothing like the power of modern bureaucracies. I have run out of time. Hopefully, I will remember to come back with an explanation because the change has very strong social, political, and economic ramifications.

As an original Trekkie myself, I can't argue with you there, Athena. LLAP (n o t MAGA :mask:) — 180 Proof

Hot damn, it is not often my path crosses someone who knows what I am talking about. I am curious. Does anything stand out to you about the difference, such as the captains' relationships with their crews and with headquarters?

Indeed.

Just for the record, the art of mass manipulation was brought to modern form by Edward Bernays (November 22, 1891 − March 9, 1995) considered a pioneer in the field of public relations and propaganda, and referred to in his obituary as "the father of public relations". (Born in Austria the year Sigmund Freud published one of his earliest papers, Bernays was Freud's nephew twice over. His mother was Freud's sister Anna, and his father, Ely Bernays, was the brother of Freud's wife Martha.)

Walter Lippman was Bernays' unacknowledged American mentor and Lippman's work The Phantom Public greatly influenced the ideas expressed in Propaganda a year later.
5 minutes ago — BC

Indeed just for the record, one story does not do justice to the whole story. Here is another one older than yours.

Niccolò Machiavelli was a political theorist from the Renaissance period. In his most notable work, The Prince, he writes, "It is better to be feared than to be loved, if one cannot be both." He argues that fear is a better motivator than love, which is why it is the more effective tool for leaders.Mar 23, 2021

To Be Loved or Feared: Which is Better? | Blog | 6 Group — Lily Nathan

That one is important to our understanding of our own evolution and so are the Nazis. The Nazis campaigned for a long time before elections. They went to villages and rented large rooms and questioned people about what made them the angriest, then someone would give a lecture about how their party would resolve the problems and make Germany great again. You know just like our present polls asking people about their political concerns and then writing speeches that please the people. Trump is the star of this show. He is so good at manipulating people he thinks he can get away with anything.

Trump: I could 'shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters'
https://www.cnn.com › 2016/01/23 › politics › donald-tr...
Jan 24, 2016 — Donald Trump boasted Saturday that support for his presidential campaign would not decline even if he shot someone in the middle of a ... — Jeremy Diamond

But he got charged with sexual abuse so maybe the tide will turn against him. For sure up to this point he has been as popular as Hitler was.

We evolved to get excited in critical situations. Stress hormones like cortisol and adrenaline are released. Our blood pressure and heart rate increase. We start breathing faster. Even our blood flow changes. — praxis

That is all true, unless a person intentionally trains himself to remain calm and reasonable. Most of our perceived threats today are not life-threatening, and being hijacked by our instinctive fight-or-flight reaction is not a good thing. Flipping into the fight or flight mode is much more a Western characteristic than an Eastern characteristic. Asians tend to remain calm. The difference begins with different child-rearing styles and different cultural influences.

I can see why you would disagree with me, but why would you be insulted by that? — T Clark

Let's see. The story of George Washington cutting down his father's cherry tree is one of several myths intended to teach children the relationship between good morals and being a good citizen, but saying the Social Security Act and old textbooks stress the importance of human dignity, is not a myth. I don't know how we can maintain a discussion that mixes myth with facts without agreement about what is a myth and what is a fact.

If you knew the educated people of my grandmother's generation, I don't think we would have a disagreement. I don't know how many years of life experience you have but I doubt if they are as many years as I have experienced.

If you were to watch old TV shows you might notice cultural differences between the 1950's and the present. The original Star Trek TV shows contrasted with the Next Generation Star Trek TV shows is an excellent example of what the change in education did to our culture. Captain Kirk is the John Wayne of outer space and Picard is the "Group Think" generation.

The nature of reality ensures we can never be certain, and ironically that also means we can (almost) never be certain we are wrong. — Tzeentch

I love your thoughts! I have a very old book of logic that explains that is exactly why we should never be too sure of ourselves! That is why we should remain humble.

My concern is we have become as paranoid as Germany was. Meaning we are suffering from an excessive need to be superior and in control. We have worshipped technology as though it were a new God that can give us all the blesses the old God didn't give us. In the US today, who wants to be humble and who wants to say "I do not know"? Good honest people can not get jobs without appearing to be superior and in control. US Rep. Santos is on the hot seat today for embellishing his resume and buying the clothes he had to have to be competitive but such behavior has been a requirement for getting a job for many years. Some of us were taught not to brag about ourselves and that means not winning the competition with everyone who does what Santos did. We have to be superior and we have to be in favor of strong control, or we face some very difficult problems in the culture we have today.

how to best educate people in a way they develop critical (or better, 'autonomous'?) thinking skills is an interesting question. Perhaps intuitively one would look toward the education system to improve things, but perhaps the answer is simpler. — Tzeentch

I think the "higher order thinking skills" answeres your question.

What is higher order thinking?
Higher order thinking is thinking on a level that is higher than memorizing facts or telling something back to someone exactly the way it was told to you. When a person memorizes and gives back the information without having to think about it, we call that rote memory. That's because it's much like a robot; it does what it's programmed to do, but it doesn't think for itself.

Higher order thinking, or "HOT" for short, takes thinking to higher levels than restating the facts. HOT requires that we do something with the facts. We must understand them, infer from them, connect them to other facts and concepts, categorize them, manipulate them, put them together in new or novel ways, and apply them as we seek new solutions to new problems. Following are some ways to access higher order thinking. — Alice Thomas, Glenda Thorne

In some of my old textbooks, warn teachers not to pay too much attention to dates or names because their focus should be on a child's understanding of concepts. The name for this is the "Conceptual Method". We replaced that with the "Behaviorist Method" and the Behaviorist Method can be used for training dogs. IQ testing relies on a person's memory not exactly the ability to think things through or be creative.

Socrates simply asked questions - an intuition so natural to the human condition that a child never even needs to be taught to do so. Without any instruction they will question their parents until the parents run out of answers. — Tzeentch

And my love, that is essential to democracy and intellectual development. It is what separated Athens from the rest of the world. Socrates proved even an ignorant slave boy can reason through a difficult math question. Athenians argued human beings were created to think, as horses were made to run, and birds to fly. We can learn to be better human beings and we can learn the technologies Zeus feared we would learn, because it is the nature of man to reason. Okay, that is not the whole truth of man. We can also be highly emotional and stupid, but Confucious and Aristotle and others have a few things so say about living with our emotions, and everyone here knows of the Stoics.

That is a different line of thinking than believing a god intended for us to be like angels, but Eve ate the wrong fruit and ruined everything. I say this because I think Christianity is an enemy of education and democracy. Some Christians and some Muslims are okay with democracy but there is tension there. This all matters to the culture we have or by default the culture we do not have.

My response to this kind of argument is always the same - this mythical society focused on dignity you describe allowed and supported the enslavement and oppression of human beings. It was only after the events you describe ended that things changed in a significant way. Thomas Jefferson kept slaves. — T Clark

I love the saying that the guardians of truth are confusion and paradox.

Let us be clear on the meaning of paradox.

a seemingly absurd or self-contradictory statement or proposition that when investigated or explained may prove to be well founded or true.
"in a paradox, he has discovered that stepping back from his job has increased the rewards he gleans from it" — Oxford Languages

Jefferson proposed slavery end on a specific date, giving everyone the opportunity to adjust to the change. He had slaves because that was the reality of his day, but he dealt with slavery not being compatible with us all being equal and having the same human rights.

Here is the fact...

Throughout his life, Jefferson privately endorsed a plan of gradual emancipation, by which all people born into slavery after a certain date would be freed and sent beyond the borders of the United States when they reached adulthood.

“This Deplorable Entanglement” | Thomas Jefferson's Monticello — THOMAS JEFFERSON FOUNDATION®

I feel insulted by your wording "mythical society" and that does not advance a discussion of truth. My opening is about paradox and our failure to be our ideal human beings is paradoxical and has been a problem since the beginning of humanity. I think the East deals with this problem better than Christianity.
We are not born knowing as much as we need to know and even when we learn a really good concept of being a better human being, it takes a long time and a lot of effort before being better becomes a habit. In all places and at all times there will be both the good and the bad, however, that does not mean culture is not important.

We are fully supporting "the enslavement and oppression of human beings" today. Only today it is not exactly a human that is oppressing us, but technology. It is totally color-blind and cares nothing about individual differences but it reduces us to complete powerlessness. I look forward to your argument.

Well no, but I think those things will ensure social conflicts won't be solved by any other means than force, since communication is made impossible. And they're the tools which enable the elite to easily manipulate people. Via that route, what may start as a genuine social conflict is artifically inflamed and warped into something else - something which ultimately serves no one, except the ruling class, which will profit from never solving it. — Tzeentch

Excellent points!

For me, it is glaringly obvious that people have their opinions confused with facts and this is directly related to the change in education. This is really paradoxical because science benefits democracy, so everyone should learn the scientific method of thinking but in Texas the 2012 Republican agenda was to prevent training in the high order thinking skills, expressing concern that the training leads to children questioning their parents' authority. What went with that is Texas demanding science books teach creationism as equal to evolution, clearly demonstrating these Christians do not have a good understanding of the difference between science and mythology.

Let us be clear on the meaning of mythology.

Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more
my·thol·o·gy
noun
1.
a collection of myths, especially one belonging to a particular religious or cultural tradition.
"a book discussing Jewish and Christian mythologies"
Similar:
myth(s)
legend(s)
folklore
folk tales
folk stories
lore
tradition
stories
tales
mythos
2.
the study of myths.
"this field includes archaeology, comparative mythology, and folklore" — Oxford Languages

Around the world countries have a mythology that prepares people to be civilized and I know of no scientific reason to believe one religion is better than another, but the argument that we must study the Bible to be moral people is just wrong because there are so many sources for learning how to be better human beings.

Anyway, if we learn how to use logic and get in the habit of reasoning instead of just reacting, we can have a healthier society, a healthier democracy. And I must say Zeus was afraid with the technology of fire man would learn all the other technologies and then rival the gods. We are now technologically very smart but lost our wisdom.

Likewise, "our institutions are failing" because the macro structural imbalances, of which they are functions, are imploding as the ramifications of those imbalances accelerate. — 180 Proof

Absolutely!!! And this is made possible by adopting the German model of bureaucracy. Before Hoover and Roosevelt worked together to give us Big Government, the US government was relatively weak. I am hoping with increased awareness of the bureautic changes and the importance of culture we can decrease the problem.

A house doesn't collapse because of its occupants' "values" but mostly from a combination of shoddy construction, prolonged disrepair and entropy. — 180 Proof

I am not understanding your meaning. Are you saying it is not values that lead to shoddy construction, prolonged disrepair, and entropy? That does not make sense to me, so I feel confused.

We had different values because we educated for different values and manifested a culture that keeps democracy healthy. I remember the older people who all about honesty and human dignity. I think the great depression and world war, lead to unfortunate changes because of the difference between generations.

What strikes me is that all of the responses so far except Joshs show contempt for our fellow citizens. Certainly this is not a sign of reason. We're all in this together, for better or worse. As I see it, the main requirement for democracy is a sense of common purpose, not "critical thinking." — T Clark

When the Social Security Act was passed in the US, it was agreed people would qualify by age, rather than making it a charity given only to the poor because of concern for human dignity. At the time it was better to starve to death than ask for charity, contrasted with today's attitude about being deserving and expecting something for nothing. My older books including grade school books have much to say about human dignity, and we used public education to advance a culture that embraced independent thinking, respect, and human dignity.

The 1958 National Defense Education Act lead to no longer transmitting the culture that we defended in two world wars. We replaced education for independent thinking with "group think". We ended education for good moral judgment and left moral training to the church. We are now as paranoid as Germany was. That means we hold an excessive need to be superior and in control. Instead of defending our privacy and liberty, we have turned to technology that collects our personal information and in subtle ways controls our lives. Culturally we are what we defended our democracy against, and people are going crazy and have become quite violent and this justifies the advancement of a police state. So much for letting military minds make our education decisions.

Thomas Jefferson and his educated peers understood the importance of education for democracy. Today we do not have that understanding.

Both are already lost in many nations, along with the US. — Vera Mont

I agree. I think the change is driven by global competition for finite resources and world markets and that technology has made our governments too powerful. That includes the bureaucratic technology that shifted power from individuals to governments. I would feel better if the changes were well understood along with increased understanding of the importance of culture.

So arrogance, pride and brainwashing are the sources of social conflict? And the old-fashioned moral virtues are the solution? I would flip this around. Belief in the old fashioned moral virtues forces us into a way of interpreting social behavior in terms of such concepts as pride and brainwashing. If we discard moldy subject-based moralisms in favor of a more sophisticated account of human behavior based on reciprocal and joint interaction we can leave the personalized blame aside and focus on collective aims. — Joshs

Yes and no. :grin: The guardians of truth are confusion and paradox. How well we do here depends on how well we can deal with paradox.

par·a·dox
noun
a seemingly absurd or self-contradictory statement or proposition that when investigated or explained may prove to be well founded or true.
"in a paradox, he has discovered that stepping back from his job has increased the rewards he gleans from it" — Oxford languages

I don't know who you figure brainwashing is part of the virtues problem. And I wish everyone had a sense of honor and pride. Exactly why would that be wrong?

reciprocal and joint interaction Surely that is a matter of logos and why would you say it is modern and insult past wisdom? :worry: Where did you get your low opinion of our past and high opinion of our present?

The problem of our time is that the ruling elite have turned mass manipulation into an artform that would have made even Goebbels proud.

They know exactly what strings to pull to get people emotionally invested in their narratives, generally by feeding a sense of moral superiority. The narrative becomes an integral part of their self-image. The narrative has been tied to the ego and becomes as precious to its followers as if it were an arm or a leg.

Along those lines people are then easily divided, because criticism of the narrative becomes a criticism of the person themselves. Communication becomes impossible, because every debate is a battle between personas.

This is 'identity politics', and it essentially keeps us in a state of permanent intellectual warfare with our fellow man.


Education is pointless to combat this, because even the well-educated fall prey to pride. In fact, so-called intellectuals may be more susceptible to it.


Man has been utterly divided and conquered by the powers that be, and its his arrogance that stops him from admitting that.


Critical thought is what is needed, but can critical thought even be learned?


Perhaps virtue would be the place to start.

Humility, so as to always keep the possibility that one may be wrong, and the other may be right. A quintessential quality for critical thought, perhaps.

Charity and kindness, to extend the benefit of the doubt to other people. To assume they act in good faith. And to treat them well, even if they don't believe what you believe. — Tzeentch

Wow, that is a very elegant explanation of what has gone so wrong. Can we look closely at the cultural components, with an eye for how the culture can be changed to manifest a different reality?

Reading what you said, woke my mind to the evil of having a "personal God". :gasp: How could it have taken me so long to see this glaring truth? There as a time when people had patron gods and goddesses and that includes the Hebrews, who had a god that favored them. Jews and others have designed systems to regulate who is one of "us" and who is not, just as countries have rules for citizenship. I think a lot of harm comes from believing in a god who has favorites even it there is rule to say His name or create religious idols and icons.

Greeks came up with the concept of logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe that is one system of universal causes above everyone, and when they took control of Christianity by writing the first bible, we get Jesus is logos, and anyone can be a Christian. :rofl: Christians still argue who can be a Christian and who is not, but maybe that is another thread. However, how universal is the Christian god? A belief in logos is open to anyone and is a sound foundation or good moral judgment, that does not include having to believe unbelievable stories. We argue as the gods did until we have a consensus on the best reasoning unless you are a politician today and then everything is a power play for personal or political party gain, not an understanding of logos and how to get the best for all.

I think education for technology is strongly behind our arrogance. That education along with having a personal god, is a deadly mix! But no I do NOT agree with this

"Education is pointless to combat this, because even the well-educated fall prey to pride. In fact, so-called intellectuals may be more susceptible to it."

A very old logic textbook that I have explains why we should never be too sure of ourselves because we can never know enough to be absolutely sure of anything. We can teach humbleness. And a huge part of our present problem is a failure to teach children logic and good reasoning. Far too many people rely on what the Bible says instead of reasoning. Their thinking stops at believing the Bible is the authority and absolute truth of God's word and they can believe crazy things like a god made humans from mud and there are supernatural beings of good and evil. That thinking does not apply the scientific method.
If education returned to teaching logic as it was taught and preparation for independent thinking, instead of "group think" viewers would reject the emotionalism of our present media and political power struggles.
"Critical thought is what is needed, but can critical thought even be learned?" Yes!

"virtue would be the place to start." Yes! And if we all understood this no one would vote for a candidate with questionable morals. There was a time when we thought virtues were synonymous with strength.

For "king", I read "$$", but for the rest, I agree. Except that I don't believe there is time for an eventuality that relies on future education - which, in any case, is not currently achievable. — Vera Mont

Okay if you want to use the term "money" instead of "king", we can discuss the importance of morals to any economy. Being able to trust each other and our institutions such as car manufacturers and insurance companies and banks is vital to a good economy. Just look at how fear crashes our banks and our stock market. When we believe we can trust one another, we minimize fear and that is exactly for the economy.

Education for technology unfortunately is not education for good moral judgment and good citizenship. Church morality is patriarchal and relies on the Father's authority over the people as it was manifested in Rome, a very patriarchal, ancient civilization, that adopted Greek technology but not Greek culture.

True it takes time for Education to resolve our problems, but it is the only way to save our liberty and personal power. We must focus on education for good moral judgment and destroy the false notion that a secular government can not also be a highly moral government and that morality does not mean a Father above us taking care of us because we can not take care of ourselves. Secular morality can be a higher morality when a nation educates the young for good moral judgment. Whereas the morality of ancient times can not possibly give us good morality for today. Huge populations and aging populations and technology gives us a reality very different from ancient times.

Women, blacks, the seas, the forests, the soil, fossil fuel, fossil fertiliser. Looks like we have run out of things to exploit. There is one thing left, disaster.

https://tsd.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine.html

↪Athena You are not alone; but you are relatively alone here because philosophy is still male dominated. What you need is "feminism". A deal of folk think that to take women seriously means to treat them just like men. That has led, not to the valuing of child-care and caring in general, but to its industrialisation, so as to free women to become wage slaves. That this "liberation" has proven unsatisfactory is unsurprising.

I, nor I fear any here, can direct you competently to the wealth of material available, but assuredly, the analysis and deconstruction of Dick and Jane has already been done for you, Women's Studies is a thing, and Feminist Philosophy, though it lacks any representation here is quite well developed. You need to go talk to your peeresses first, and then come back and educate us neanderthals. — unenlightened

This morning I am freaking out about the failure of all our institutions and the failure of education to prepare us for a democracy that is rule by reason, not rule by authority over the people. That includes the harmful domination of men over women. As long as we rely on the church for moral education, we will continue the destruction of our democracy and continue to manifest wars and social problems.

Rather than turn to my peers who only know our Christian-dominated culture, I want to turn to the women who have cultures that respect and empower women and their difference from men. The tribes of the Iroquois nation might be more helpful to us. They have a culture that is better than the one that patriarchal religion gives us. We need to look to matriarchal cultures to know a better way.

I was ok with this up to your last sentence, which is a bridge too far for my rationale. — universeness

I know what I have experienced and once again I wish you would be more open-minded. I am not sure why I had those experiences so I like to talk about them and get other ideas.

That's not the point I am making. Earlier in your posts, you suggested (unless I misinterpreted your meaning) that you consider the creation of a cybernetic body which was as capable as the human body is, in functionality and sensation, was impossible. Was I incorrect in my interpretation of your posting regarding this point? — universeness

Now I am the one with a closed mind. Even if science could create something like a human body why would they? That is a bridge too far for my rationale.

. Venus has no living creatures but it is an active planet. Do you consider it to be alive? — universeness

I have not contemplated that and can not answer your question.

Here is a link that says it is alive.

For decades, researchers also thought the planet itself was dead, capped by a thick, stagnant lid of crust and unaltered by active rifts or volcanoes. But hints of volcanism have mounted recently, and now comes the best one yet: direct evidence for an eruption. Geologically, at least, Venus is alive.Mar 15, 2023

Active volcano on Venus shows it's a living planet - Science — Paul Voosen

I think it depends on how we understand what is living and what is not. Chardin said God is asleep in rocks and minerals, waking in plants and animals to know self in man.

Jose Arguelles uses different terms and this universal force may be life/God? I want to make it very clear, I don't understand things like a quasar and the sense fields.

The Mayan return, Harmonic Convergence, is the re-impregnation of the planetary field with the archetypal experiences of the planetary whole. This re-impregnation occurs through an internal precipitation, as long-suppressed psychic energy overflows it channels. And then, as we shall learn again, all the archetypes we need are hidden in the clouds, not just as poetry, but as actual reservoirs of resonant energy. This archetypal energy is the energy of galactic activation, streaming through us more unconsciously than consciously. Operating on harmonic frequencies, the galactic energy naturally seeks those structures resonant with it. Their structures correspond to bio-electric impulses connecting the sense-feilds to actual modes of behavior. The impulses are organized into the primary "geometric" structures that are experienced through the immediate environment, whether it be the environment of clouds seen by the naked eye or the eery pulsation of a "quasar" received through the assistance of a radio telescope. — Jose Arguelles

Anyway, there is a lot more to think about when we zero in on what is life. I do not consider my vacuum clear or computer to be living. I am not sure our lives end when our brain waves stop.

Does this not contradict your claim that a future AI system cannot have a body which is capable of the same or very similar, emotional sensation, to that of a current human body? — universeness

I don't think so. My vacuum cleaner and washing machine are very helpful and so is my computer, but they are machines, not organic, living and feeling bodies. True the users of the bureaucrats and the internet do their best to control me, but I am not giving up the fight.

We have already surrendered too much of our liberty to the media and bureaucracy. Hum, I am seeing the opposing forces of wanting connection and also wanting to defend my integrity which requires a cell wall to separate myself from the beast. I most surely do not want to succumb to the Borg!

https://www.google.com/search?q=you+Tube+the+Borg&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS926US926&oq=you+Tube+the+Borg&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i13i512j0i22i30l4j69i64.18730j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:8119c6e9,vid:WZEJ4OJTgg8

I also think that even if all his evidence is true then this could simply mean that humans and other species have another 'sense' system that we do not fully understand but this other sense system is still fully sourced in the brain. — universeness

I want to take all the evidence seriously and I would not say it is fully sourced in the brain. The feeling of being watched is in the body and the brain detects this sensation and tries to make sense of it. Usually, turn around and look at what is behind us when we have that feeling. Then we confirm whether someone is either looking at us or not. Personally, I have many telepathic experiences, including messages from those who have crossed over. It would be hard to convince me something we do not fully understand is happening.

I prefer the work of people like Sheldrake, which is also entertaining but also has some real science behind it. — universeness

That is a cultural bias starting with the materialistic Romans. Materialistic meaning believing all things are matter. The Greeks were not so materialistic. Not all of the Greeks believed in a spiritual reality such as Plato's forms, but Greeks had the language for the trinity of God, that the Romans did not have.
Language being a very important factor in what thoughts our culture accepts and which ones are taboo.

Our cultural bias prevented us from understanding Gia, the earth as one living organism. Capitalism still works against our awareness of Gia and the need to change our ways to prevent the destruction of our planet. Western culture also ignored Eastern medicine and we still remain unaware of this other understanding of how our bodies, minds, and spirit work. Here are demonstrations of qigong energy.





There are many more and I want to add the Mayan matrix contains the position of the acupuncture points. This is shown in Argüelle's book Mayan Factor.

"Argüelles' significant intellectual influences included Theosophy and the writings of Carl Jung and Mircea Eliade. Astrologer Dane Rudhyar was also one of Argüelles' most influential mentors." The words I underlined make me go :rofl: — universeness

Yes, that is our cultural bias but do you wish to be close-minded? I very much appreciate that information of influences. I was not aware of those connections. Thank you. It helps me understand what Arguelles in a new way.

Are you aware of this lecture by Rupert Sheldrake (released to YouTube 2 months ago,) regarding his theory of morphic resonance and morphic fields? It's 2.5 hours long but worth the watch. I knew about his work but I found this lecture on how an aspect of 'mind' might reach beyond the restriction of brain and body, quite interesting. — universeness

Seriously?! Have you read Jose' Arguelles's book "The Mayan Factor" It is all about the Mayan understanding of morphic resonance and our cosmic connection with the universe. Some of Jose' Arguelles's thoughts are too weird but if you want to talk about morphic resonance his book should be part of the discussion. Here is a way of seeing reality in a different way....

1. The Pulsation-Ray of Unity.
2. The Pulsation-Ray of Polarity.
3. The Pulsation-Ray of Rhythm.
4. The Pulsation-Ray of Measure.
5. The Pulsation-Ray of the Center.
6. The Pulsation-Ray of Organic balance.
7. The Pulsation-Ray of Mystic Power.
8. The Pulsation-Ray of Harmonic Resonance.
9. The Pulsation-Ray of Cycle Periodicity.
10. The Pulsation-Ray of Manifestation.
11. The Pulsation-Ray of Dissonant Structure.
12. The Pulsation-Ray of Complex Stability.
13. The Pulsation-Ray of Universal Movement.