Wheatley, I look forward to having the time to watch your links. Perhaps I can devote this weekend to that when my choice of TV shows is very poor. I hate the idea of being a feminist and speaking against males, and I am torn between economic, environmental, and social concerns but I think men organize themselves differently from women. Not that one is necessarily better than the other, but it might be a challenge to create a balance and acknowledge the importance of both?

Why do we speak of male philosophers and not female philosophers? Who is concerned with educating the children? Why Nietzche's Superman and not the Superwoman? When we go to war, who keeps the children alive and tends to all the things a society needs to function, while the men are consumed with war? That was truly a Spartan question. How should the children be educated?

Wow, you have opened a whole new world for me. Thank you so much for that list of female philosophers. I went on to see if there are books on the subject and there are plenty. I think I truly must get those books. Now I want to retreat to a monastery and focus on the study of female philosophers and how they may have affected the world around them.

I had read that Pythagoras gave women equality. Interestingly to me, is writing about music and math is not equal to writing about morality and social order, but I now see an opening for women who write of a subject that interests men and does not challenge their position and importance. Would you happen to know if any of these women wrote about the importance of family and childcare and community? :lol: I so want to go to the coast and focus on this subject and do workshops. Perhaps after having a hip replaced I will do that. I don't know, I have to think on it, but the possibilities give me so much reason to live. I did not expect this at this time in my life when life seemed behind me and not in front of me.

Wheatley,
You posted very interesting videos. However, no one has responded to them. To me, this is seriously problematic, because the discussion is not happening.

Your single words are not helpful because I have no idea why you think they are important? I am a firm believer in capitalism because of Sparta the first military/socialist state, and Athens, where our philosophy, science, and democracy begins and the government provided opportunity but not a welfare state.

Liberty without education has no value.

that non-philosophers have no idea what you are talking about. — Apollodorus

What do you mean by those words? I sure do not consider myself to be a trained philosopher, and I am not sure I care that much about formal philosophy? I sure don't like many of the male philosophies, and deeply regret that women were closed out of the discussion.

Wheatley, your reply that men are responsible for philosophy is meaningless without identifying which men. Cornel West made it very clear the voices of some are heard, but these are not the voices of the people. Understanding that and why that is true is very important.

Maybe both of you will see my response to Apollodorus and my last comment to Wheatley are related? Why do some people impact our lives for centuries while most live and die with no effect? Can this be changed? Doesn't a democracy mean a different order, where the many have more power than the few?

Which men. Not all men have resources and power. There must be an organization with resources and power to record and preserve a person's thoughts.

Feel free to ask questions requesting information about philosophy. Feel free to provide information about philosophy here to those in need. — Wheatley

Who makes the decision of it what someone thinks is worth saving for centuries?

Might philosophy have been different if women had not been closed out?

Teaching people ideas is probably not very problematic. It's when you teach people to be afraid of questioning, doubting, entertaining alternatives... Whether it's coercive control, wrangling slaves, ostracizing someone for having different political views or being gay or reading books, violent apostasy or good ol' Stockholm syndrome, it's always all downside. Occasionally atheists convert after consideration. It's odd, it's rare, but it's fair because they're adults using their experience, feelings and reason. But mostly theists are raised in their religion: it's chosen for them, and contains astonishing threats, even if conveyed with love. — Kenosha Kid

I think we have agreement up to the point of saying atheists convert after consideration. At that point, I think we have a different opinion of who causes the problems? The bible was used to justify slavery and segregation. Not all Christians agree with that, but they love the idea that Christianity is the way to a better a reality, and that is not true. It is democracy that pushes for the better reality. We are not sharing the same reality until we agree is it democracy or religion that raises the human potential?

I watched a show about the Southern resistance to integration last night so that is what is really on my mind, and the thinking of prejudiced people is so outside my comprehension. I feel so hurt because I know if I were treated as native Americans, or the people of color, or Palestinians have been treated, I would not like it. How could we have so little empathy for other human beings? And clearly, the Christian churches could have spread love instead of hate, but they did not. It is democracy that has pushed for equality and peaceful resolution of differences, not Christianity. While Christians want to believe they are the reason our society is better than others. That blind and false understanding of reality is not tolerable.

* REALITY being that which exists. — Daniel

This is more agreement with what you have said than not an argument.

At best we can have a perception of reality. That perception is dependent on our receptors for feeling, hearing, seeing, etc. and the devices we use to enhance our perceptive capability. Secondly, our ability to perceive reality is limited to what we know and our ability to ask good questions. It is presumptuous to think we can know reality any more than we can know God. We can know about reality, and we can study holy books but that is all limited and we might want to remain cognizant of that. Then we might be less arbitrary about our own concepts of reality.

In many ways, even though we have shared realities, I do believe that each one of us has a unique reality. I remember reading a sociological text, by Berger and Luckman, 'The Social Construction of Reality', in which the authors speak of how we construct our own identities in symbolic ways. — Jack Cummins

That would be a good book to read! I have the good fortune to have experienced the reality of poverty and living in constant insecurity and learning to not want things and the opposite of living in an exclusive neighborhood. These different economic groups have different understandings of reality tied to their emotions and thoughts. The people may share facts but the meanings are not the same.

Each of us has such a unique set of experiences and, finds meaning in the social contexts in which we find ourselves, and we also can choose the life we have, even if we have a limited range of choices. Also, we are so unique in the way in which we interpret our experiences. Each person has a subjective set of likes and dislikes. For example, I know how my own tastes in music are not necessarily the same as many others I know. — Jack Cummins

I like that example of having different tastes in music. That is an odd thing isn't it? Why don't all people enjoy music exactly the same? My taste in music has changed. I used to enjoy heavy metal but now I prefer classical music. It is like my body requires a different sound and beat and is apt to feel annoyed if the sound is harsh. However, I can enjoy a lot of rap if the words are positive. And along this line, I am concern about how TV affects people. I think it affects them in ways they are not aware of and that this has social consequences.

Each of us, at any moment, has a different perspective, including aesthetic,, emotional and rational aspects, but, at the same time, we do navigate these in connection to shared views and specific understanding of standards which are seen as objective. — Jack Cummins

You are so wise. Just wait until you are 70 years of age. Although you have a lot of self-awareness and wisdom, I bet you will be surprised by how much your thinking changes when are older. Because you are a thinker your wisdom will continue to develop. I know plenty of old people, don't develop their thinking and get stuck in their ways, but for those who live to learn and think, age improves their thinking in ways a young person can not imagine.

I think we all need to work on self-awareness so we are not trapped in our own personal drama which we believe is real, but really it is only our own reality or mythology of heroes and demons as Joseph Campbell explained. Especially when we are not getting along with someone, we tend to think it is all that person's fault and we are sure that person's thinking is not right. We either dislike the other or ourselves. Our egos think they are dying if we entertain the idea that it is our thinking that isn't right and we are the one who needs to change but if we do blame ourselves we can become self-destructive because if we knew how to do better we would. :lol: Hum, :chin: it looks like our understanding of reality is also tied to our coping skills. The better our coping skills are, the more flexible we can be and that is a different way of seeing reality.

PS defining reality with quantum physics is so different from the religious explanations of reality that we have lived with for thousands of years.

Okay, how many ways can we define reality? What about reality matters and why? How can we be sure we know reality? Like, might we live differently if we think the Jews must rebuild their temple for Jesus to return and then we will be given a new planet, or if we think our planet is finite and that no religious explanations explain our reality?

Jewish victims don't matter - got it. Israel has no right to defend itself. — BitconnectCarlos

Sure and in the US we had the right to own slaves and steal land from the native Americans. Might makes right because it is obvious the source of that might is God and His will is being done. When the Jews complete the process and rebuild their temple, Jesus will return and prove all the Jews who have not been worshipping Him wrong.

Interestingly at this time in history, our media in the US is hammering away at the wrongs we have done. We can only wonder when Israel's leadership will see their take over of land and prejudice against those who lived there before Zionism as a wrong that needs to be corrected. A big problem is the Jews and Palestinians educate their children separately, each teaching their children a different explanation of history, and last night I watched a program about people of color homeschooling their children, which can evolve into the problem Israel has of opposing cultures pitted against each other.

I am reluctant to move the discussion in a direction it was not going. I didn't realize I was so far off from what everyone else is discussing.

As writing changed human consciousness, television has changed human consciousness and will continue to do so. We live on a finite planet and we have changed it in ways nature would not do. I think our question of reality should focus on that, but perhaps not in this thread? Does it matter if there are many dimensions? Our failure to adequately understand our 3, possibly, 4-dimensional reality could mean destroying our planet and it is humans making the change, not a God and not nature. Oh dear, how could my thoughts be so different from what everyone else is thinking about?

So, Philosophy works best when its derivations can get confirmed by/with science; otherwise, as we see in some of the forums, people say a lot of things that sound good on the surface, such as having 'free will', 'infinity', and 'Nothing' that quickly evaporates when delving into the definitions. — PoeticUniverse

That final statement about definitions brings to mind the creature that is doing the defining. Chardin said God is asleep in rocks and minerals, waking in plants and animals, to know self in man. I read something in Qabala that said God can not have a consciousness like ours because God does not have a physical body and can not experience life as we do. Existence as we know it is unfolding without knowledge because before it comes into being there is nothing to know about it. What other form of intelligence would question reality as we do and how do we come to define anything or to agree on definitions? I think I am saying, we are creating reality or at least any understanding of it.

I was reading your last post and the following question came up: Is reality a changing thing?I believe that there must be one and only one "REALITY"* for every single thing there is; there must be a single "WHOLE" since we (and everything else which exists) are certainly part of the same thing (whatever reality is, it must be the same reality/whole for everything that's contained within it even if everything contained within reality experiences it differently). Nevertheless, I am asking if this reality is fixed (is the nature of reality always the same?) or if it changes as every thing contained within it does**. What do you and other readers think?

* REALITY being that which exists. I have mentioned it before... ideas must be real (they exist) since they are molecular processes being affected by time and space.
** Assuming every thing there is changes. (Assuming every thing which exists is subject to change) (Assuming that the proposition "P = All things that exist are subject to change" is "TRUE"). — Daniel

Ah, if we are talking quantum physics as reality, perhaps it is not a thing but an action and it is in constant change.

The first elements — hydrogen and helium — couldn't form until the universe had cooled enough to allow their nuclei to capture electrons (right), about 380,000 years after the Big Bang. Q: How did the first chemical element appear in the universe?Dec 12, 2018

How did the first chemical element appear in the universe ...https://astronomy.com › magazine › ask-astro › 2018/12 — Astronomy magazine

Before the elements what was hot? I don't comprehend reality on this level. We begin with a reality that has no elements. This is not as simple as a god creating heaven and earth and saying it is good.

Like PoeticUniverse said....

Newton's proposed space and time as absolutes were given the boot by Einstein, so, they are but emergent, and not fundamental, so, the ultimate foundation can't have them. — PoeticUniverse

Robin Williams said reality is an interesting concept. Reality is what we agree it to be, but obviously, it can be very hard to get an agreement.

I am blown away by the changed perception of reality that is in the media. It would be interesting to know my mother's take on the explanations of how prejudice harms people of color. I think she would become very defensive of endemic racism and justify it with the sexism that kept women in their place because she thought people should stay in their places. However, she really did not like getting a lower wage because she was a woman. That is, our concept of reality is dependent on our experience and it can be very confusing when others disagree with our concept of reality.

Obviously technology beginning with the technology of agriculture and irrigation dramatically changes our reality. We become more dependent on human knowledge and less dependent on a god. Mass media especially television and the internet are dramatically changing our reality and I wonder what life will be like a hundred years from now. Will racism still be a problem or will media succeed in changing our understanding of racism and our behavior? Will we even have cities, or will our cities be destroyed by fires? Will our economy dependent on oil, collapse, and if it does how will people live?

That is not quantum physics reality but it is the kind of reality I find the most interesting. It is as we make it, not exactly how a god makes it. We are destroying our Garden of Eden because we are violating laws of nature. We are headed for a water crisis and life as we know it could come to an end.

I'm reading a book on divination in antiquity, Divination and Human Nature, by Peter Struck, which considers the views of ancient philosophers regarding that practice. From what I gather so far, philosophers didn't necessarily dispute its efficacy, but rather sought to explain why it was effective. Divination didn't necessarily involve sacrifice, though the study of livers was thought to be significant in determining what was to take place.

The Roman Emperor as Pontifex Maximus performed sacrifices as part of the Roman state religion. There's frieze of Marcus Aurelius doing so that's well known. Sacrifice seems to have been a fairly universal religious practice. — Ciceronianus the White

That looks like a very interesting book! I love to examine why people believe what they believe. Where and why did the idea originate and where did it travel and how did it blend with the beliefs of others? If is easy to imagine how hunters came to sacrificing imaging a power greater than their own and yes the practice seems to have been pretty universal. I can not imagine how a person would rationalize what the Hebrews were doing was different from what everyone else was doing and only the Hebrew's sacrifices are about a true god. Then the Christian claim that another diety eliminates the need to make sacrifices. :chin:

Not necessarily. I suppose different people are good for different reasons. Some are good because they allow their innate goodness to manifest itself; some are good because they acknowledge the importance of following laws, human or divine; and others are good because they fear punishment in this life or the next. — Apollodorus

I find that agreeable.

But even in those cultures where spiritual wisdom and laws were transmitted orally, the knowledge in question was accessible to a limited number of people, such as the priestly class. It was not available to all and sundry. — Apollodorus

I agree with this too but want to say all people have a mythology about creation with stories that tell them how to behave. They were first told around campfires and they were passed on verbally from one generation to the next. The goal of mythology is to transition youth into adults knowing the tribe's values and stories that unite them. I know of no reason why we should believe one story is more true than another. Philosophers such as Confucius have done the same with reason and without relying on supernatural beings. Why should we judge the Bible as better than the philosophers who laid out the laws (science) a society needs?

What I believe or aver is irrelevant. You have called lie. If the Bible is a lie, it should not be too difficult for you to cite the parts that are lies. It seems to me you have no clarity about beliefs and what they are, seemingly dividing the world into matters of science or lies. But it just plain is not that simple. And statements can be false all day long without being lies.

Do some people lie? Do they lie about religion? Of course they do, maybe a lot of people. But that's them, not (usually) their beliefs.

Or another way. You call lie. Is that because you believe it as a matter of belief? Or because you know it as a matter of fact? — tim wood

Five Biblical stories are Sumerian stories of multiple gods. It was a goddess who made a man and woman of mud and breathed life into them so they could help a river stay in its banks. One of the goddesses involved was Ninti. Her name translates as both "the lady of the rib" and "the lady who makes live". This play on words does not work in Hebrew so we get Eve a woman made of the man's rib. In cuneiform, the words Eden (Uncultivated plane) and Adam (settlement on the plain) appear. The people who carry this story came from Ur a Sumerian city and they were led by Abraham. It is obvious they researched the Sumerian archives and plagiarized the Sumerian story.

Science tells us humans evolved from the same line as the apes. That is the story I believe and that makes the Biblical story of creation false. Without the Biblical story, there is no need to be saved and I think all our reasoning is greatly improved by science. We were not made special by a God but we are animals.

What do you believe the facts are? If you do not clearly answer that question this is the last time I will acknowledge your posts in this thread.

If it is false it is a lie.

You are playing a good game of cat and mouse. Do you believe the Bible is God's word or a nice mythology but truth as a person of science understands truth?

What I meant was that the practice of writing down laws said to have been given by God goes back to Hammurabi (1792 - 1750 BC ) and before:

“Hammurabi is best known for having issued the Code of Hammurabi, which he claimed to have received from Shamash, the Babylonian god of justice.”

Hammurabi – Wikipedia

The Judeans were taken into Babylonian captivity in 597 -581 BC, i.e., many centuries after the Code of Hammurabi.

But I agree that the idea of a loving God in the modern sense is a recent reinterpretation. The original idea was that God is to us like a father. He creates us, supports and protects us, feeds us, and expects "love" i.e., obedience in return.

God was like the pater familias in Greek and Roman society hence he was referred to as "Father" (Zeus Pateras) in the same way children out of respect always addressed their parent as "father", not by his proper name. — Apollodorus

There is a huge issue with the written word. What Hammusrabl did, did not affect the Celts who were resistant to the written word. Celts and others rejected writing in favor of memorization and passing on stories orally. I forget the whole argument about how writing changed the human psyche, but the change is huge! Our brains function totally differently when we use pictures to cue our memory or rely on "the written word", which can then become THE AUTHORITY. Protestants took this to an extreme. They decided each one of us can be an authority on God's word, and they made the Bible the authority of His word. Totally different from the Catholics who decided trained priest can be authorities on God's word, but not the lay folk. For a Catholic, the pope has authority and power, not the common man and that would be much closer to Judaism and the rabbi by inheritance who interprets the word of God.

Making the individual the authority on God's word set fire to witch-hunting. Ignorant people thinking they are authorities of spiritual truth became a superstitious nightmare and I am not sure how far from this we are today?

Om, om, we have with us ideas of the power of sound and using the vibration of sound to heighten our spiritual connection. We have Quakers who believe God speaks to everyone. Or the Buddist who gets in touch with spirituality by going within. This denies the authority of the written word and belongs in this discussion. What is the source of your spiritual experience? How do you connect with it?

Jews were known for their spells and they show up in Egyptian burials. Our word "spell" comes from the belief that words can have magical power. Do we believe this when we argue "Belief in god is necessary for being good"? Excuse me- how familiar are we with this faith in the word?

Well, they have to though, don't they? Otherwise the God they worship would be jealous, despotic and bloodthirsty.

Christians, on the other hand, may more easily be literal in their interpretation of the New Testament, but if they are they show themselves to be jealous, despotic and bloodthirsty. The Old Testament God, interpreted literally, is one actual Christians understand quite well. — Ciceronianus the White

What might be very important to this belief system is the belief in God and inheritance. This was not a problem when they were nomadic sheepherders but it became a problem when they settled and became farmers. At this point, the line of inheritance is even more important. This is the problem in Isreal today. There is no justification for Israel without the belief that a God gave land to a set of people, and that this land, including slaves, is rightfully owned through a line of inheritance. Before this, linage established the individual's place in society, not merit hiring. They fought a war with the Greeks because the Greeks had conquered the territory and were assigning jobs by merit instead of lineage.

We might ask why was it ever necessary to sacrifice animals, and how did a person come to holding the position of the official over the sacrifice and why was the temple essential to the sacrificing. There are Zionist Christians and Jews and this is a serious international problem. What we believe really matters.

First, if addressing me please do not confuse me with someone else. Second. I have never claimed either Christianity or the Bible is either a lie or true. Third, a lie is a judgment made about a certain kind of proposition. I am unaware that either the Bible or Christianity in whole or any part is the kind of proposition that might properly be called a lie. — tim wood

Plain and simple why is "Belief in god is necessary for being good" a true statement?

That would be the most obvious lie of Christianity and if there is no reason for believing in Satan and demons that would be another lie in the Bible and Christianity. Deifying Jesus, calling him a God, and tieing him to the God in the Garden of Eden, and Satan, is believing in supernatural powers, and the belief that these supernatural powers affect our lives is another lie. This is about believing in the supernatural and being superstitious or not.

I want to add, this an open discussion and I attempt to be inclusive. It is not a private discussion between 2 people. Sticking the points being made will make this a better process.

Religious texts were originally held in the possession of priests who interpreted them for the lay community. Scriptural interpretation was probably later influenced by politics and even the otherwise good bits ended up being distorted. This is why mankind have devised new religious systems every now and then when the old ones no longer served the intended purpose. But political systems can be just as bad or even worse, as can be seen in the case of communism. — Apollodorus

This was not always so. There was no written of God until after the Hebrews/Jews (?) were taken into captivity by Babylon. And obviously, these people did not accept the changes made with the New Testament, and before there could be a New Testament, the power structure of Rome, had to determine which side of the fight about when Jesus became a god or if he did become a god is the right one? As the religion moved north it was changed by barbarians without an ancient city culture and written word.

Today people seem to think the Bible is the written word of God, with absolutely no knowledge of all the changes in consciousness that the religion has gone through. Not until our bellies were full did God become a loving God instead of a fearsome and punishing God. Notions of evil and demons have also changed and I am rather disappointed that no one has addressed my question "What is evil".

It's the claim of ordinary existence and reality as a matter of fact that becomes a problem. Facts require evidence, beliefs don't. — tim wood

Please, support the notion of Satan and demons if you want to claim Christianity is not a lie. That is how you use the word "lie". The word "myth" might be a better word. The Bible is a mythology that should not be taken literally.

Well, they have to though, don't they? Otherwise the God they worship would be jealous, despotic and bloodthirsty.

Christians, on the other hand, may more easily be literal in their interpretation of the New Testament, but if they are they show themselves to be jealous, despotic and bloodthirsty. The Old Testament God, interpreted literally, is one actual Christians understand quite well. — Ciceronianus the White

There is a changing of values of the old testament as the people shift from being nomadic herders, as dependent on God as leaves blowing in the wind, to an agrarian society with private ownership of land and food-producing trees and fields, with increasing wealth that is dependent on individual effort and individual wealth to buy more land (a violation to God!). Later, in some places, this became more cosmopolitan city living.

The God of David is a war God. Now the people are paying taxes and expected to defend their land. These are no longer herders dependent on a God to guide them to water or send birds to feed them.

Curiously I rarely met any literalist Bible believers in the 1970's; we were always taught that the Bible was an allegory and according to Theologian David Bentley Hart, this was a strong tradition for centuries, with literalists being a comparatively new thing. Sounds counterintuitive. These days literal believers are everywhere. I guess the internet makes them a viable worldwide community and emboldens their thinking. I wonder if people head towards the comfort of fundamentalism's certainty when they fear the world, and with science comes little else but continual change. — Tom Storm

Bingo with literalists being a comparatively new thing. Education for technology is about being exacting and correct and relying on authority. And I believe you are right about the psychological reason for clinging to fundamentalism. This is so in Afghanistan (fundamentalist Muslims) and the US (fundamentalist Christians) or in Israel (Jew).

One source of information I have says in the US we cling to Christianity or Democrats. :lol: I didn't think I would ever say it but I think the Democratic party has swung too far to the left and here comes your statement that about the problem showing up in politics. I think the democrats are creating an unhealthy reliance of government and Tocqueville wrote of that danger in 1830. Has everyone read "Democracy in America" and the despote Tocqueville said all Christian democracies would become?

Communism is taking care of everyone and isn't that a Christian goal? At the moment taking care of everyone also seems to be a Democratic goal. The Prussian model of bureaucracy makes this possible, and education for technology plus overpopulation makes it necessary. Oh dear, I am afraid my reply is not very philosophical because it is very materialistic. Ideals take form, we are the body of Christ or communism, and the form shapes society. Anyway it can be argued Christianity makes people weak and when they become dependent on the beast, that may not be a good thing?

Plato and other ancient philosophers used myths to illustrate certain points they were making and I believe that some religious texts are doing the same. Different people draw different teachings from them according to their own level of maturity and understanding. As long as they don't get any crazy ideas or don't turn to fanaticism, I don't have a problem with that. — Apollodorus

And here is the problem. I think Jews interpret the Bible more abstractly than Christians. It is the literal interpretation of the Bible that gets people into trouble.

I love it when science proves the truth of what is said in the Bible. Yes, climate change killed the frogs and increased the insects as the Biblical story tells us. Yes, a wall fell down. I have a preacher nephew who became outraged when I sent him the scientific proof of the Bible stories. I thought it would please him, but no! Science destroys the superstitious understanding of the events and that made him furious. He and others like him, see that as Satan's work to destroy faith in God.

Believing a lie is not being good.

What is the lie? Anyone who believes s/he knows God's truth and that those who do not hold the same truth, do not know God, is not allowing others the liberty to determine truth for her or him self. Only when we remain unsure of our understanding of God's truth can we grant others the liberty of determining truth of one's self.

Christianity began with Christians killing Christians because they disagreed with each other and for most of our history they have been killing each other until science and democracy changed that.

An atheist is more apt to trust science, so there is an understanding of why wearing masks and keeping distance and washing hands is important, or understanding what we are doing that is destroying life on the planet. We can be as unwilling to allow others the liberty of believing the wrong thing as a Christian. False beliefs that spread disease and destroy our planet are not something we can tolerate.

Protestants began with the belief that science would reveal God's truth and had they stayed with that belief, the God issue would not be as important as it is today. Reason, is the controlling force of the universe, logos, is about discovering the reason for why things are as they are, or science bringing us to God's truth. All people have attempted to know God's truth because our survival depends on it. They just did not have the scientific method of knowing truth. But when science began exposing the things said in the bible that we should not believe, Protestants turn against science. Protestants depended on a literal interpretation of the Bible and that is disastrous. They wanted to correct Catholicism by interpreting the Bible literally and they backed their way into a corner they can not get out of off.

How we interpret the Bible depends largely on our education. Liberal education prepared everyone to think abstractly and this makes mythology, stories, parables, not literally God's truth. A god did not make a man of mud and a woman from his rib. Christians who interpret the Bible literally have trouble with science, and education for technology dropped education for abstract thinking and we are in a mess now! Interpreting the Bible literally pits people against science and that works against our survival, turning those who rely on science firmly against religious folks. Who is the liar? Science and Satan or the religious community that denies science?

That reminds me of a friend of mine who every time she loses or misplaces something she prays to St Anthony (or whoever) and next day she surely finds it.

But you are perfectly right. I don't believe in blind belief in anything. Religious leaders need to remember that they are just priests not saints or prophets and either (a) stay out of politics or (b) if they do get involved in politics or public life then they have a duty to inform themselves of the facts and not imagine that if they know the scriptures they know everything.

Fanaticism and lack of judgement is as bad in religion as it is in politics and all areas of life. And atheists can be as fanatical as theists even though they may not admit it or even not be aware of it. — Apollodorus

I also have an uncanny ability to find missing things, however, I do not pray to a saint of god for help. I also do not consider myself to be an atheist. I just find the religious writings unbelievable. I have attempted to know many religions/philosophies and I see the same basic truths in all of them. I also have always had spiritual experiences even possible experience with those who have crossed over. I love logos, reason, the ruling force of the universe and firmly believe things will go well when we have the right reasoning and do not go well when we do not have right reasoning. We are part of something much larger than ourselves.

However, there was a time when everyone was a god/ goddess' favorite and arguing that one has the only true god and telling stories such as the Garden of Eden story and believing it is literally true, sets off my alarm bells, and all my arguments against that idea.

The claim was made that "the right of others to hold their own beliefs" is being denied. This is simply not true. The accusation is made here and elsewhere whenever the accuser's own views are challenged and cannot be adequately defended. As if to question with these views is to deny the right to hold them.

I won't speculate as to whether the accusations of persecution are actually believed or are merely rhetorical, but I think it should be viewed in light of the repeated claim here and elsewhere of having won the argument. It has not, the argument has been evaded and this is just another evasive tactic. — Fooloso4

Oh yes, I clearly see evidence of the argument being evaded.

And I am someone who denies others the right to believe what they believe because wrong thinking can lead to very bad things. With Covid and global warming and making matters worse by believing a god protects us and takes care of us, like a father takes care of children, is not okay! It as wrong as bleeding people to death, believing that is how to cure them of what ails them.

The greatest cause of "evil" is ignorance and we must not tolerate it.

Not at all. It is a lie. I simply identify it as such and make a further observation based on my experience with that individual. Were it mere invective, then you correct. But it is not. and I invite you to consider that. — tim wood

What is the lie? Would you please put what you are talking about in your post? If you want to talk about a lie, you need to say what that lie is.

don't think you are the only one who is confused by this thread. However, it all becomes clear if you consider the political agenda behind it.

As for "non-believers", I think they are a kind of people who believe in all sorts of things but deny the right of others to hold their own beliefs. — Apollodorus

Yes, I deny the right of others to have their own beliefs because wrong reasoning can have bad consequences.

:lol: A drier coin receptor is not working. One of my good neighbors said she will pray for it and tells me that works every time. I am okay with testing that belief. That test is not as bad as ministers telling their flocks to trust in God and not science when Covid is taking people's lives. I much rather test that belief with something that does not kill people. One Oregon church that attempted to sue our governor and force an end to the shutdown, is associated with at least 74 cases of Covid. What did those people do to not warrant God's protection? What about all the people who got Covid because someone spread it in the community? How many people vote, risking the lives of others is okay and what happens is the will of God, not human stupidity? How about global warming because of human behavior, is that something we can ignore as we pray our home will not go up in flames this summer?

This is a lie. And actually a vicious lie. I'd go on, but in the end, all that is useful to know about a liar is that he lies. And it doesn't do much good to tell him, because he is inevitably his own first victim. — tim wood

Wow, you are very emotional, aren't you? Believing something that is not true does not make a person a liar. At least I never considered calling religious people liars, but I suppose if we are not superstitious we could think those who are superstitious are liars. However, I don't think calling people liars will ever come to any good. I am strongly against calling people liars. Some forums have a rule against name-calling. It sure does not promote good reasoning.

And of course, what do you suppose "is" means?
If by "is" you mean an unquestioned presupposition of your thinking, then it's all yours. On the other hand if you mean something else, then what do you mean?
— tim wood — tim wood

Ah, thanks to the organization of this forum, I think I found your question.

An unquestioned presupposition is fast thinking. This can lead to holding a false belief, such as believing the quest for knowledge is a sin for which a god punished all of humanity by denying them the Garden of Eden. A belief associated with a powerful demon that lies to us and causes us to go against the will of God. This belief, unfortunately, has terrible political consequences as we have just experienced because of Covid. A time when we need to rely on science instead of a book written before we had much understanding of science and believed in supernatural forces of good and evil. Science has done more to end evil than that book.

Yeah, I know, "evil" too immature a concept for grownups to think about. But I also know this. You who claim to know a lot - more than me - refuse to answer a simple question, after refusing to answer some not-that-simple questions, being instead dismissive, deflecting, mocking, condescending, offensive - anything at all not to answer. So you're a weasel. Being thus uncivil, you are not entitled to civility. So FUCK YOU, weasel. And that will be my reply to you until and unless you rejoin reasonable discussion. Questions asked, not answered, pending. Your move, weasel . — tim wood

I already asked what is evil? Now I need to ask what is your question because I would love to give answering it a shot. I suspect the argument you are having is the result of not knowing the difference between fast and slow thinking.

It would be nice if when we reply to a post we attack the thought not the person, and reply with arguments that are comprehensive to anyone and do not require knowing what was said in the previous post. That would be, "you said this ___________ and I disagree because ___________. What matters is not how much a person knows, but how well a person presents an argument. In your mundane life, you may be a brain surgeon or astrophysicist but that does not help us here in an argument of what we must know to have good judgment.

Merkwurdichliebe
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Moral awareness, and becoming an autonomous moral agent, isn't particularly related to theism.
— jorndoe

This is a great point. I would add, that for the religiously inclined, moral awareness and the concept of becoming an autonomous moral agent is a prerequisite for religion and observing the demands of one's faith, but the connection ends there. Religion and morality are as comparable as ethics and art - and philosophy weaves its way through all three. — Merkwurdichliebe

But the whole point of religion is having faith that one knows the will of God and is protected by this God as long as one does not do something that needs to be punished. Reason has nothing to do with it. Unless we want to say believing the people with the strongest god win wars and if we want protection we must worship that god and please that god and hope that god accepts us as his/her people, is good reasoning.

Daniel Kahneman's explanation of fast and slow thinking is essential here. If what we believe is true is not the result of slow thinking, it has a high chance of being a false belief. https://www.shortform.com/summary/thinking-fast-and-slow-summary-daniel-kahneman?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIz5Ll3p2S8QIVtzytBh3FiwbSEAAYASAAEgJj1_D_BwE

Olivier5
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that still doesn't make evil absolute
— Merkwurdichliebe

What would it take for evil to be legitimately described as "absolute", in your opinion? — Olivier5

What is evil? Is the plague evil or the will of God? Are the Mongols evil or did God send them to punish us? Why are the Muslims winning wars with Christians? Quick determine what the evil is and what we must do to avoid the wrath of God or we are all doomed.

I am totally confused by this thread. What is a non-believer? Everyone believes in something and it seems dishonest to me to label someone a non-believer. Maybe that is a fair thing to do to people who do not believe in Satan and his demons, but really, doesn't honesty require defining what a person does not believe? There may be good reasons for believing in one god and not another, and good reasons for believing in Satan and his demons, but those reasons need to be spelled out and the labeling needs to be dropped because it promotes a lie. The lie that you know truth and the other does not because the labeling completely bypasses reasoning. That is a serious religious problem and a political problem.

Reason is the controlling force of the universe. You either have good reasoning or you don't. The consequences of bad reasoning are bad. That just is the way it is and not understanding that is an error in logic.

Really? Exactly? — TheMadFool

I was agreeing with Jack. If our souls depend on the planet we live on, when it dies so do our souls. Now, this may not be true because our souls may not exist, and if they do, they may not depend on the planet living.

/quote/ can they wander

I do not know. I just know if our souls do depend on our planet, they would die with the planet.

Why not? I don't recall there being a moratorium on wandering.

The whole argument is built on conjecture and is abstract without empirical information. The argument depends on the notion that we have souls and they are dependent on the planet.

Are you sure?

Am I sure we all tend to be good people? That argument is based on the fact we are social animals. Social animals depend on each other for survival, and that means it is important to be valued by the group because if we not valued by the group our chance of survival is not very good, so it innate to us to figure out the rules for being valued. Humans think about what they think, so they have a conscience, but all social animals have an internal system of feelings of ease or uneasiness that tend to determine their relationship with others.

Immediately Einstien comes to mind
— Athena

Have you ever thought why?

Because Einstien said imagination is important and he did thought experiments to figure out his theories. As far as we know, animals do not have imaginations, and imaging what could be is unique to humans. However, it seems dogs do have dreams and that is a form of imagination. Hum, :chin: oh dear, is there a distinct line to be drawn between imagining "what if" as humans do and dreaming?

I used to wonder more about time and infinity more than I do now, because I feel that as concepts they are so interrelated with other aspects of life and reality. But, time is mysterious. Generally, people seem to feel that time is speeding in their subjective experience. During the last year I often feel as if it is slowed down, but that is probably due to lockdown and because I had to move twice. Also, I only joined this forum last year, but I feel as though it has been about five years. I think that this is because I have felt that it has lead me to do so much thinking. What is your experience of time? — Jack Cummins

I have read some of Hall's books such as Beyond Culture and our concept of time is cultural. Telling native people a dam must be completed by September may have no meaning to them. Say the dam must be completed before the rains come, makes perfect sense. In some cultures, it may seem presumptuous to agree to meet next week at 2 o'clock because what happens is dependent on nature or the will of a god, so the correct way to think of meeting at 2 o'clock is " if god is willing".

Furthermore, time is intangible but we treat it as though it is tangible. If it is 3 o'clock right now, depends on where you are. That is not so because nature makes it so, but it is so because we have agreed on time zones and the 12 hour clock.

But now the 12-hour clock! Where on your body do you have the number 12? Can you find the number 3? What do these numbers have to do with 60 and pi? Now there are some real mysteries! The facts may not seem mystical at all, but for me, they are totally and literally awesome! I would say the language of god is math.

Son of a gun, in all these years I have not come across anyone with knowledge of the oil-banking-economy reality. I learned of it through a geologist who wrote "Geodestiny". How did you come to that information? Why did you pay attention to it?