In standard monotheism, the laws of the universe don't precede God. — baker

Do you mean I have to believe something that is unbelievable because that is what people who deify Jesus have done?

I am not sure ignorance works and fear of the supernatural is ignorance? What is our goal?
— Athena
They were burning people at the stakes and threatening them with eternal damnation. It worked, in that the population at large acted in line with the way the Church wanted them to.

What do you mean, whose letters am I using? What kind of argument is that?
You were praising the ancient Greeks and dissing the ancient Romans -- while using Roman script.
Rather ironic, don't you think? — baker

Yes, people were ignorant and superstitious and yes the Church attempted to create social order, but if we are speaking of the Catholics, they were not in favor of claiming people are witches and burning them at the stake. That was more a protestant thing and there were so many different groups of protestants they never had the power the Catholics had. Actually, the witch hunts were more secular than religious. Someone wrote a book about witches and educated people used the book to hunt witches. Here is a marvelous explanation of why witch hunts spread like a pandemic.....

“Similar to how contemporary Republican and Democrat candidates focus campaign activity in political battlegrounds during elections to attract the loyalty of undecided voters, historical Catholic and Protestant officials focused witch-trial activity in confessional battlegrounds during the Reformation and Counter-Reformation to attract the loyalty of undecided Christians,” write the study’s authors, Peter T. Leeson, an economist at George Mason University, and Jacob W. Russ, an economist at Bloom Intelligence, a big-data analysis firm. — Gwynn Guilford

Perhaps you did not know, the Romans such as Cicero were educated in Athens. Rome basically adopted Greek technology and ignored its culture, but a good example of influence of the Greeks is Rome's attempt to be a Republic and the Bible. The original Bible being written by converted Greeks claiming Jesus is logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe.

The Greeks played a huge part in ending the Christian war against Christians. As you know they were killing each other as some believed Jesus was the son of God and others thought Jesus is God. The Greeks had no problem with a god taking human form. Romans didn't think anyone became a god until death transformed a human into a god. They lived next door to the Egyptians whose pharaohs were gods. The point is the Greeks had a better language for defying Jesus, and the Romans could not do this until having a word for the Greek concepts.

er, no. If you can do anything, you can do anything. — Bartricks

There is no human nor god that can break the laws of the universe.

↪Athena It seems we agree - I don't know by how much. But I view science as valid knowledge of reality/Creation. I don't know if God exists - but if he does, understanding the Creation in which we are placed, and acting according to true knowledge of Creation is surely the path to God, for reality is, in effect - God's word made manifest. And worse case scenario - we'd make the world into a paradise and secure a prosperous sustainable future! — counterpunch

I like the word logos better than the word God. God implies a personality like Zues, or the jealous, revengeful, fearsome, and punishing God of the Bible. I do not believe such a god exists. However, there is universal order. I will use the word God when referring to universal order/logos because that is the word others use when speaking of the ultimate power.

However, logos can only do what is possible. Logos can not do what is impossible. I guess what god can do depends on if we are speaking reality or fantasy.

What makes something true is how well it works.
— Athena
Then threatening people with eternal hellfire and burning them at the stakes are good practices, for they work!

I do not know the first person who said "look for God in everyone", I just know doing so has a positive effect.
Yes, the Holy Inquisition were "looking for God in everyone" as well.

In the short term the Nazis were very successful, but today, Germany acknowledges the wrong done to Jews, and through education attempts to right the wrong and prevent it from happening again. The US occupies land held by indigenous people, and we have learned they were right about our planet being a living organism and that we need to protect ecosystems so they work as evolved to work.
But today is not yet the end of the story.
Take Nazism, for example: it's being rehabilitated. If the current trends are anything to go by, it might not take that much before it rises to power again.

The Romans conquered the Greeks but it is the Greeks who live on in our understanding of democracy and through the philosophy we share and science we develop.
Read again. Whose letters are you using to write this? — baker

I am not sure ignorance works and fear of the supernatural is ignorance? What is our goal?

What do you mean, whose letters am I using? What kind of argument is that?

Even the gods must follow the laws of nature. Logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe made manifest in speech. The gods do not manifest logos but are subject to it and science is discovering the reason. cause of, manifestation/ effect.

Conscience is coming out of science/knowledge.

What makes something true is how well it works. I do not know the first person who said "look for God in everyone", I just know doing so has a positive effect.

The Neanderthals became extinct except as part of some people's DNA. It is believed the genes of the second migration of humans out of Africa, replaced the Neanderthals because they had better social organization. I think humans right now are working with a faulted concept of reality and that this is changing through our abundance and science.

In the short term the Nazis were very successful, but today, Germany acknowledges the wrong done to Jews, and through education attempts to right the wrong and prevent it from happening again. The US occupies land held by indigenous people, and we have learned they were right about our planet being a living organism and that we need to protect ecosystems so they work as evolved to work.

The Romans conquered the Greeks but it is the Greeks who live on in our understanding of democracy and through the philosophy we share and science we develop.

How rapidly we move into a New Age, depends on our ability to imagine it because it is as we think it.

What Is The Münchhausen Trilemma?
NOVEMBER 16, 2018 BY IDEASINHAT
WHAT IS THE MÜNCHHAUSEN TRILEMMA?
The Münchhausen trilemma is a problem in the branch of philosophy known as epistemology; the Münchhausen trilemma, also known as Agrippa’s trilemma, reveals that any theory of knowledge cannot be certain and that all beliefs are unjustified.

In other words, justified beliefs, which are beliefs founded on reason and logic, cannot be obtained, as the Münchhausen trilemma demonstrates the impossibility of justified premises.

There have been numerous attempts to establish justified beliefs, but none have been satisfactory thus far. And so, the Münchhausen trilemma thought experiment is still a problem for any theory of knowledge — IDEASINHAT

That is about like saying we can not catch a fish because it does not stay in the same place.

May I offer the concept of democracy? It is rule by reason and we come to that reason by arguing until we have the best reasoning. This process does not stop but is ongoing. At any time, anyone can argue the established reasoning is not the best reasoning and then trying to persuade everyone of better reasoning. That is why we have a governing body all the time, instead of establishing what will be, and then simply enforced the status quo.

I will argue at a given moment in time, agreement on the best reasoning is justified. It just isn't unchanging like a holy book.

Speaking of children's TV programs, Sesame Street was amazing at crashing through the prejudice barriers and creating a place where puppets looked different from each other and had different personalities and people representing different gene types normalize people of all colors and shapes living together in a community. Before we can manifest it, we have to imagine it and that is what Sesame Street did, help us imagine a community with people who look different and all get along.

You may be interested in the Virtues Project.

The Virtues Project™ is a global grassroots initiative to inspire the practice of virtues in everyday life, sparking a global revolution of kindness, justice, and integrity in more than 100 countries through Facilitators, Master Facilitators, Champions and Virtues Connections.

The Virtues Project empowers individuals to live more authentic meaningful lives, families to raise children of compassion and integrity, educators to create safe, caring, and high performing learning communities, and leaders to encourage excellence and ethics in the work place. It has inspired and mobilized people worldwide to commit acts of service and generosity, to heal violence with virtues.

The Five Strategies™ awaken the gifts of character, through inspiring programs, books, and materials that help us to remember who we really are and to live by our highest values.

The Virtues Project was founded in Canada in 1991 by Linda Kavelin-Popov, Dr. Dan Popov and John Kavelin. It was honored by the United Nations during the International Year of the Family as a "model global program for families of all cultures".
https://virtuesproject.com/homepage.html — The Virtues Project

I have the 52 pack of virtue cards and have used them with friends and children. I hope to return to sharing the cards when the pandemic passes. They can be used as morning meditations, or whenever having a problem. My friends and I gathered once a week, we thought of something troubling us, and then drew a card out of a bag. Each of us would read our card and thought about it, then we took turns sharing our card and saying how we thought that particular virtue would help with what was concerning us. You can see the cards at the link.

For the children, I bought a book of virtue stories and I have DVD's of virtue stories which are the old classics. I can't imagine not reading to children because that was so basic, but the DVD's are wonderful too. The Public Broadcasting Station has programs for children teaching the virtues but I have a problem with them because it is usually kids behaving like adults and they do not present the relationships of older people with normal children. Not that long ago, Public Broadcasting had shows with adults and children in their correct positions, often in family relationships. Does it seem that is now outdated? Mr. Rogers was a favorite and we still honor him.

I would say that prejudice is about visible and invisible differences and beliefs about superiority.
As George Orwell said in 'Animal Farm':
'ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL BUT SOME ANIMALS ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS.' — Jack Cummins

The little boy saved his town by sticking his thumb in the hole of the dam. :grin: Oh dear, I think it is the matter of the heart and that I was blessed with a heart full of love. I was blessed by my grandmother who was a school teacher when teachers believed it was the purpose of teachers to help each child discover his/her talents and interest. Democracy is about everyone working together and each one of us has an important part to play, even if the best we can do is stick our thumb in the dam until someone gets there and to fix the dam.

We used to tell our children moral stories or what some call folk tales, so they would learn virtues and moral thinking. Perhaps science can help us here? The very big things like huge trees or elephants depend on very small things, such as microbes and insects that manage the environment and make life possible. We all have a part to play.

Just because something can modify doesn't mean that it necessarily will modify given instinct. We don't really control our immediate responses. Sure we can try to do things to change them but there's no guarantee they'll succeed. Personally, I've had immediate negative conscious responses towards members of my own ethnic group as well as others so I guess I'm just basically racist against humanity at this point. — BitconnectCarlos

I believe reason and culture override instinct. We can all learn virtues and good manners if they are taught. That was the original purpose of education, and we need to get back to it.

Civilization means to make others as ourselves and since mankind sat around campfires they invent mythology and passed it on from one generation to the next. The purpose of mythology is to create a uniting story and transition youth to adults. Education for technology does not transmit a culture, but education for democracy does. May I suggest we return to liberal education with the goal of creating a better human experience for everyone. Technology is important. We could not support the huge earth population we have without it, but it is not the only thing that is important. Learning to live with each other is also important.

I understand that you are someone who is not racist. I was not brought up to be racist, but I grew up in an area which was white. I played with the children who were black or Asian but did see them being treated badly. One of my Asian friends got knocked unconscious while walking home from school.

I am also half Irish and when my dad first came to England he felt that he experience some racism against Irish people, so it is not straightforward . — Jack Cummins

I remember hearing constantly about the violence between the Irish and the British and it seemed all around the world people somehow people imaged a difference between themselves and "those people".
It amazed me! It still blows my mind. Even when people look the same they can imagine there is an important difference between people. Like if they go to war, how do they know who is one of us and who is one of "those people" when everyone looks the same? That is very creative isn't it, to believe they are not one of us? It certainly is not logical. We all share this planet and it will be as we make it. Why would we choose war over brotherly love and @baker word kumbaya? :brow:

There are ways for people to live harmoniously together: such as under tyrants; or when everyone knows their place and minds their own business. It doesn't make for a kumbaya-happy picture, of course, but it's harmonious.

Prejudice only begins to matter when an egalitarian social order is being imposed on people. — baker

Can I add to what said my grandmother's rules because I think they eliminate social problems?

1. We respect all people because we are respectful people. It doesn't matter who the other person is because no one determines how we behave but ourselves.

2. We protect the dignity of others.

2. We do everything with integrity.

Then there is the commandment, look for God in everyone and "there but for the grace of God so I". We are all in this together so it behooves us to make things as pleasant as we can. :wink: I will do what I can to get to kumbaya-happy.

I am white and really do not believe I was prejudiced against anyone until having bad experiences. The first time I saw people of color, they did a musical performance at my school and I loved them. I gave them a standing ovation and was shocked and embarrassed because I was the only one standing. I thought something was wrong with the White students who did not give colored students the standing ovation they deserved. Really? My mother was a singer and when someone gives a good performance we should show our appreciation and the people of color seemed so happy and friendly and did such a good performance, I wanted to be one of them, not an uptight and unfriendly White.

I gravitate towards people from other countries and have discovered people of color from Africa are not angry towards Whites as people of color who lived in some of the United States may be very angry. I think we have a difficult situation in the US because anger is very part of the problem.

I think it is helpful to look for the beauty in people. Now that implies prejudice as we discriminate what is beautiful and what is not, but at least it crosses the racial barriers. So if I add things up, the musical performance, meeting very nice people from Africa, and enjoying beauty, I would not say I am not prejudiced against people of color, but I am careful because I am aware of how angry some people are. :lol: Loving to meet new people has meant stepping into good situations as well as some not so good situations. It depends on where the person comes from more than the color of the skin.

Finally, I have a great-grandson who has dark skin and black kinky hair, and obviously, he is one of us. The color of his skin does not make him someone who is not one of us. He is family and you can't be closer than that. We share the same genes for goodness sake. It seems obvious to me the color of the skin does not matter. It is just the color of the skin. In India, people have many shades of color and they are all one, Indian. In time the people of the US may look like the people of India. As long as they are democratic I don't care if some are White and some have permanent tans. What is most to me is the values of democracy, not the shade of the skin.

I have been told he will do counseling now. Actually, we have heard quite a bit about children having a problem because of the fight to open schools. A lot of children just are not doing their school work and we know they are having mental issues. We all are. Then the other side argues the health risks are just too great to open our schools, but I think the Catholic school has remained open? It is a real tug of war about which is the greatest risk. I think we need some structure and social contact.

Our schools are doing online schooling but I think we are about to learn the importance of social contact. The magazine I bought explains shared memory. It is amazing but our thinking has more to do with our group than we have realized. We don't pay as much attention to something that is not a shared social experience.

For example, if someone is talking about the experience of a group that I am not a part of, I really don't care. Please, don't talk to me about the problems football players are having, because I am not a sports fan and really do not care. I know I do not care as much about what is happening to people on the other side of the world as I care about what is happening in my own neighborhood. Those are big and obvious, but how about learning math? If the people you associate with smoke you are likely to smoke; if they learn math you are likely to pay attention to math. Isolated children don't have the group stimulus to learn. They are not carried along because that is what everyone is doing, and if their parents are not engaging and involved with the child's learning because this is really something the parent enjoys, if the parent really hates school work and tells the child to do the school work but does not become part of the learning, the poor child is going to hate the chore, instead of wanting to keep up with what everyone else is doing.

I am reading of social media and memes and I am excited to think some creative person might intentionally create positive memes and flood social media with them. I think this might be like having a parade of skeletons and baked goods of death symbols and music and dance, bringing people together. That is what a meme does. It gives people a sense of social connection.

We need to invent celebrations and memes that work with our human nature. We must stop ignoring our humanness as we have been doing in the US. Reading the classics gave us unity. They prepared us to be adults and to cope with life. I am now understanding this in a whole new way and why that is so important. And Jack, if it were not for your thread and replies I would NOT have done this thinking and I would not have realized what one piece of information has to do with another. I would not have this joy of realizing something in a new way. On my gosh, humans really need each other. :grin:

The poor adolescents who are struggling to understand life and are isolated and without the groups support we all need. I get it.

:worry: I can not have the effect I want to have on my granddaughter and her son, because I am old and not one of them. I studied gerontology years ago and just now I have realized the answer to one of the most important questions about if old people withdraw or are they push out? They are dropped out like the old shirt that was once a favorite shirt but is no longer in style. As much as that shirt was loved, it is not what is wanted today.

I have many college courses on DVD's and Cd's and audio tapes, from the Great Courses company. I have been listening to a 3 part series on the early middle age, middle age and late middle age. Right now the lecture is about the the long period when plagues swept across Europe. About every 6 years, give or take a few years, they were hit by a deadly pandemic. What impressed me, after several pandemics they reacted as Mexicans have with a celebration of the Day of the Dead and a parade of skeletons, decorated skulls, etc.. When Europeans came to the American continents they brought disease and disseminated the native populations and as the people in Europe they came to celebrating death.

Of course individuals reacted to all the dying differently. Just about everyone assumed this was the end of the world. Some hunkered down to protect themselves and they became very frugal, leading to some accumulating money that was nice to have as estates were left vacant. Others took the attitude, eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we all die.

I bought a special edition Scientific American magazine that is about research into things like conspiracy theory and social media. When people are traumatized as all the deaths are effecting many people, and uncertainty is increased, such as loosing a job and not knowing what will happen next, people are more prone to believing conspiracy theories. It gives them something to pin all their anxiety on, and perhaps a sense that the threat can be overcome. In short, getting crazy is a coping skill.

I am really worried that my 13 year old great grandson has taken a turn for the worst and in his isolation is looping negative thoughts about no one liking him and he can't do anything right, and even suicide. His mother works and he is left alone way too much with nothing positive to focus on. We used to be good buddies and have wonderful adventures in nature and with informative DVD's and science experiments. But he hit that age when he doesn't want to be with Grandma anymore. Great, but school is closed and he can't run around with friends. Mom is not getting it. She thinks her son is hearing voices and going crazy because something is wrong with his brain, and she gets furious with me when I point out the problem is isolation and nothing to do that moves his mind in a positive direction as you are doing, Jack. I wish he would read the classics and learn how heroes in literature deal with adversity but he is unwilling to do that. I am sure depression has eaten up his motivation.

I think it is a mistake to leave the young to figure things for themselves without guidance and encouragement in these times. They can't even learn from each other because they are isolated. Any suggestions?

I see everyone is speaking of how the pandemic is affecting them. I have had my ups and downs and thankfully mostly ups. But I am an old goat with a lot of experience with adversity and I am not looking for a mate or a good career, so I think it is a whole lot easier for me. My life is behind me and all there is to do now is keep myself happy. But I worry so for the children!

The children in my family are having a real hard time. The youngest one has been separated from her mother and is not happy. The family has risked visits after my granddaughter tests negative, but we still know there is a risk not just to the family but to everyone where the youngest one lives. I can not think of a crueler life experience than this one. It is not as traumatic as war, but in war, the moment of fighting passes. This pandemic is going on and on exhausting our morale.

Ain't that the truth. That's why I'm all for removing superficial and archaic barriers.

This virus is an opportunity for us to experience how alike we all are and how connected we truly are as we all deal with this mindless thing that's affecting us all regardless of race, denomination, status, age, gender.

But of course, we're seeing groups trying to again highlight differences during this time. Which is unfortunate. — 8livesleft

I so enjoyed watching the Public BroadcastingChannel Yesterday. There was a celebration of music in the evening and it was uplifting. All but one President stood together, democratic and republican declaring unity. That was such a happy sight. The leadership is now of unity and hope.

Leaders are as strong as their followers make them and the music of the time and media are very important to this. Many songs have been written during these hard times like the songs written during the Great Depression. Here a favorite one titled "Happy Days are Here Again". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqsT4xnKZPg

The US is dealing with a history of racism and we have a history of White people who tried to right that wrong, so 8Livesleft, I hope the talk of the problem is shifted with the change in leadership and songs that lift our spirits and we talk about our history of White people who did not try to correct the wrong and how this is the time to overcome the problem of racism and the paranoia created by 9/11. I do not the one-sided talk of racism we have this past year.

↪Athena
The Enlightenment was never complete. Certainly, there was a rebuttal of absolute religious authority, the divine rights of kings, and a movement toward democracy and sovereignty invested in the people. But philosophy, literature and film have merely confirmed the Church's position on science - as a heresy, established with the trial of Galileo in 1634.

Sure, science can be used to surround us with technological miracles, but is afforded no respect or authority. From Descartes' subjectivism, to Mary Shelley's Frankenstein - 1818, right through to present day blockbuster films - all we see is the mad scientist, stringing together some world ending abomination unto God; depicted as either a careless fool or an evil genius - that only the flag waving, God loving hero can save us from.

But here's the problem, the climate and ecological crisis is a consequence of applying technology as directed by ideology - rather than, applying technology as suggested by a scientific understanding of reality. It's not a matter of morality - it's a matter of truth, and science has proven the truth of its ideas endlessly with technology that works.

But hey, maybe if we pray hard enough - snap off a few more salutes to the old skull and crossbones, climate change will just go away! — counterpunch

You are right, but could use a little more information. What is a matter of truth is a matter of morality. The line of reasoning for this conclusion is Greek and Roman. This predates Christianity, a mental disease that has us really messed up because a false belief blocks us from knowing truth and in the US this is a serious cultural problem affecting even non-Christians.

Starting with math, the Greeks got really hung up on doing things right and understanding why it is the right thing to do. That is Egypt had practical math and the Greeks learned from them, but they were not content with it works. They wanted proves. Now we come to logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe, made manifest in speech. The Bible says Jesus is logos because it was written by Greeks. With logos as the most divine power, we ask, why should we do this and not that and this is as serious as finding proves for maths. What is the reasoning, the moral choice? This is a life or death issue because the wrong choice leads to destruction, your environmental problem, and drug addiction, and all other problems resulting from bad information and bad decisions as surely as jumping off a tall building leads to death because of gravity.

When we had liberal education based the Greek and Roman classics, we had education for good moral judgment and we told children folk tales and then asked, what is the moral that story. I stress this question is about the reasoning and the reasoning is about universal law. The Little Red did not share her bread because no one helped her bake it. The Fox didn't get the grapes because he gave up and comforted himself by deciding they were probably sour anyway. But the Little Engine that could made it over the hill, because he did not give up. The moral being a matter cause and effect, and education for good moral judgment being essential to our liberty and democracy.

In 1958 we discontinued that education and left moral training up to the church and now we are in total crisis! Education for technology is not education for science. Liberal education is education for science and it comes complete with good moral judgment. Read Cicero, he tells us no animal sacfrice, burning of candles, saying prayers will make things good, when we make the wrong decision, because what will be is the consequence of our action. Not the will of a capricious god influenced by our piety. The rule of reason, logos. This predates Christianity and a book written by Greeks call the Bible.

Cicero believed that reason is the highest good, for “what is there, I will not say in man, but in the whole of heaven and earth, more divine than reason?” 12 The importance of reason is emphasized because it is present both in humanity and in God.Aug 31, 2018

Cicero's Natural Law and Political Philosophy | Libertarianism ...

In a post yesterday I was saying that it is very sad that people are starting to expect books, music and other works for free, without appreciating of the artists' need to make money to live.

However, what you are saying about community arts is very important. I do believe that children and adults should have access to being able to participate in art based activities. Just before lockdown I was attending a creative writing group at a library and had just discovered an art group, which I attended once, in a museum. These were free. I do believe that it is important that people, children and adults, are provided to have access to the arts. It is such an outlet for people and I hope that after the pandemic these groups will be part of culture. I would also hope that there is public funding for such activities, rather than them just having to be staffed by volunteers. — Jack Cummins

Absolutely, that is the very meaning of being civilized! The enlightenment was about lifting everyone out of the dirt and taking us from being worms to honorable and dignified human beings. It became what we call liberal or classical education bring the world's best literature and best philosophy to everyone through public education.

I don't want anyone to think I am against technology. I am sure it is an important part of the New Age. However, we went a little overboard with thinking technology would resolve all our problems. Technology is only a tool and how we use it depends on what kind of human beings we are. And I must say, your threads are excellent for getting us to think about such things. :heart: :flower:

I would say that unity is central to the whole question of survival of humanity, especially the battle against the pandemic. However, as someone said to me in April, the difference of the situation is opposite to the the 2nd World war because that brought people together as a community and people are being told to isolate.

Obviously, you are speaking of unity on a deeper level. However, I do think that this may be the tricky part. This is because we are being isolated and it makes it harder to reach out to others in many ways. But perhaps this does give plenty of time for reflection. I do agree with you that we are definitely seeing signs of people going beyond selfish concerns. Let's hope that this is the beginning of better thinking and positive direction. — Jack Cummins

In this pandemic, we must realize we are in this together. Separated by distance does mean we are not in this together. The whole world is having the same experience, although in different ways.

Trump was the worst possible leader the US could have had at this time, assuring the worst possible outcome of the pandemic because he pitted us against the media and against each other, assuring the spread of the virus because of the large number of people who refuse to follow any of the guidelines.

I do think there are positive effects of the pandemic because of more compassion and a strong motivation to do better. However, I am afraid of the impact Trump has had on us. On the other hand, what he has done to us is so bad we must seek a solution, so even that bad can lead to a better tomorrow.

The more everyone realizes we are in this together the better the whole world will be. It is far better to identify a pandemic where it originates and throw everything we can at stopping it. That can mean being sure people on the other side of the world have clean water and are will feed and have medical care because their problem can become our problem. Do you get the very real meaning that we are all in this together? To a virus, we are all the same and it does not respect boundaries.

Could there be an experience of the brain dying? I guess that is the question. — Pantagruel

That is called dementia of Alzheimer's disease.

the hippie says since everything is nothing but frequencies and vibrations or energy slowed down, everything is alive in its own way even if it can’t be expressed in what we consider or acknowledge as “alive”

may be bullshit, but it’s pretty! — Ignance

I hardly think it is bull shit because it is true, however, our understanding of it is inadequate.

I don't have any straightforward answer for this. Still, culture is constituted of individuals. The relation between the top-down effects culture has on individuals and those individuals have upon a culture is complex, to put it mildly. Bare minimum I can do, I'm thinking, is preserve my own way of valuing things as a constituent of the culture I am a part of. And of course, engage in conversations such as this. There's too much egotism that accompanies the prevailing materialist perspectives of the day, I'm thinking. Again, with this materialism being perpetuated by the overwhelming sum of (commercial) art we are exposed to. This, in turn, entailing not enough thought as regards others and what they require to produce those things that enrich our own lives. And this is a hard tide to turn, especially in the short run. — javra

You are Jack are having an absolutely marvelous discussion that I wish all of us would have! Before the 1958 education act that focused the US intensely on technology, children had art and music classes. I think for the sake of humanity and civilization we seriously need to return to liberal education and art is very much a part of science, and music can put our brains in rhythm for increased learning. The positive effect of the arts means this should be supported by government and it most certainly should be in our school system. If the government made that decision, teachers would be taught to value the arts in education. This is just a snowball that gets bigger and can move a civilization as 1960-70 art and music us until the impact of the 1958 had its full effect.

The music I am listening to now is supposed to Serotonin, Dopamine, Endorphin Release Music, Release Negativity. What if as an intentional effect of cultivating children they learned the effect of the arts can have on them physically and with that knowledge had true liberty to chose to have want influences them. Might we lift children out of poverty with such knowledge?

:lol: Calling rap rape was a Freudian slip. Unfortunately, when I think of rap I think of the anger directed against women expressed in some rape music. I know not all rap is hateful and I am not sure if our freedom of speech should cover hatefulness. In another post, you mention Hip Hop and I saw a show explaining the idealistic social intent of Hip Hop. I have seen rap with idealistic intent too from around the world.

That made me think of steampunk and the clothing that goes with that. All of the forms of music go with a dress style and perhaps a lifestyle.

Art and music are food for our souls. It enhances our life decisions to be calm and relax or hyped up, to be energized and angry, or calm and peaceful. It literally has a biological effect on us and some claim music has a biological effect on plants as well.

If something is beautiful to us or absolutely awful depends on how harmonious or symmetrical it is. Our brains are wired to chose patterns that have harmony and symmetry and recoil when there is over disharmony or a lack of balance.

Studies have shown that participating in music and art can alleviate pain, help people manage stress, promote wellness, enhance memory, improve communications, aide physical rehabilitation, and give people a way to express their feelings.Mar 22, 2018
or art and music therapy helps teens - USA Today — Reginal E. Payne II, Jayne O'Donnell and Marquart Doty,

That was said very well. Sometimes poetry is the best way to speak truth.

I am asking about the level on which art can play in addressing social and political issues. I am speaking about the role of expression of feelings in art, fiction, music and other art forms. How far should it be seen as an aesthetic quest or one which is part of a cultural statement? How influential can art be in raising consciousness?

Also, I am asking about the responsibilities of the artist. To what extent is the artist just expressing personal feelings? Is there any danger if art, music or fiction is too 'dark', such as metal music? Does it matter what art we create? — Jack Cummins

I love political cartoons and in a very old book about poverty that I have, there pictures worth the saying "a picture is worth a thousand words".

The Spartans used music to coordinate the movements on the battlefield, and Athenians thought music was very important for aesthetic reasons and was an important part of education.

I liked the energy mental music better when I was young, and now I prefer mellow classical music. I like the rhythm of rap but often do not like the words! The hatred of some rape music is frightening. And the Beatles and The Mamas and the Papas, Alice's Restaraunt, I've Got a Hammer, I really think it was songs about war and peace that created peace when it was the thing to be Hippies. And oh my how much fun it was to dress Hippie and be creative. We sure could use some of that now.

There's evidence of early hominids caring for their elderly, their young and the sick. We also see similar behaviors in animals that live in groups. So maybe that is the natural state and selfishness to the detriment of others is unnatural because it leads to self-isolation. — 8livesleft

Most likely our line of humans out-competed the Neanderthal because of our greater ability to organize group behaviors than enhance survival. Human success really depends on organizational skills and motivating people to act in unison for one goal. Trump is a master at this, but he made the terrible mistake of pitting us against each other to develop his core of supporters. He almost won the election, but fortunately, Biden won the election. Unfortunately, Biden has to deal with the damage done by Trump. Can he unite us and prevent violence? Can he get us to work together to against the virus? I am afraid because of Trump's leadership, Biden's efforts to unite us in fight against Covid will lead to more violence. And if the no masks, no restrictions side had won, our population would have been reduced even more.

Bottom line- human success depends on human unity.

Yes, I think that there are signs of hope. We obviously measure partly on the basis of what we see in our own country and we are all across the world. My own feeling is that there do seem to be some definite positive indications.

I do wonder if we had been in a different historical epoch whether we would have just had an emphasis on the survival of the fittest. As it is, there is a concern about meeting the needs of vulnerable people and many people are not being completely self-centred. Perhaps we are beginning to see the better side of human nature. — Jack Cummins

I think we are definitely seeing the better side of humanity. I wish there were a general understand that the Christian God did not become forgiving and loving until our bellies were full. Christians were focused on a jealous, revengeful, fearsome, and punishing god. People beat the devil out of their children.

Perhaps child-rearing practices are the most important to a culture, along with the mythology that defines the culture. The best way to have an aggressive, warrior type society is to abuse children. Protecting children and making it possible for them to grow up with love and security, leads to a gentle society, and in the past having weak people instead of fearsome fighters was a shame and a danger. During hard times no one can be soft. Seriously we need to know history to have a perspective on the present.

It is a bit insane to live in the best of times and be so angry and ready to fight, as is so in the US today and I really think that is because we neglected history. If we compare our lot in life with the wealthiest we can be miserable. If we compare our lives with the past, we are apt to be very thankful and capable of believing the future can be even better when we work together for that.

Jack, sorry about my US focus but we are expecting violence in all state capitals and especially in Washington DC on the day of the inauguration of Biden. It is hard to think of anything else besides Covid and the expected violence. I don't think things are this intense in other places. The divide we have now is like the civil war divide and Trump made this so. The violent eruption was expected and it is not over.

I agree that greed and stupidity are problems and probably a lot of people don't have the motivation to overcome them. Do you have any ideas on how they can be addressed on a collective level because I am not sure that education or politics even addresses them fully. — Jack Cummins

Public education is essential and using our schools and public media to transmit a culture and necessary information such as when the economy collapses, or there is a pandemic, is essential. The culture must promote life long learning and valuing science, math, and history. Education that is focused on preparing the young to be products for industry and leaving moral training to the church is a human disaster! We need to hold an idea of the ideal we are heading towards so we know where we are going, and we need history for perspective on where we have been and where we are going.

I think the pandemic is potentially a huge wake-up call. If we somehow manage a cohesive response, the pandemic could well teach us our true power as a coordinated collective. Great things could come of that. Unfortunately I see that opportunity daily slipping away. — Pantagruel

Whoopy :party: We have agreement. I am blown away by the US giving money to all citizens for no other reason than they are citizens and giving businesses money. I have been through a few economic crashes and this is totally different from Reagan scapegoating the poor and slashing the domestic spending to pour everything into military spending. Only during the Great Recession has the US government done so much for citizens in need. I think the way things were handled by Roosevelt was better, but maybe this new way of handling an economic problem will prove successful? The point is the government is keeping people afloat, and stimulating the economy, which is different from the past and hopefully, this works well and future economic crashes will be managed better than in the past.

↪Athena
I think that the whole state of crisis is of concern, not just the US. Please don't take this as a personal criticism, because it applies to many threads on the site which focus on America more than any other aspect of the world. America is a superpower but it is not the only one.

I am interested in the idea of the New Age more than conventional Christianity but we need to understand the movement in its historical context. It has some roots in Christianity and also a basis in Eastern philosophy. In a way it is utopian, but I think that the term is becoming a bit outdated because people became disillusioned with it. In the New Age movement there was the whole idea of moving from the age of Pisces to that of Aquarius. I do embrace this idea but I think that many people on this site may regard such an idea as mystical jumbo.

I think that we are best focusing on possible ways forward independently of labels and we don't really know, in an ultimate sense if the idea of the age of Aquarius is real objectively. However, going into Joseph Campbell's thinking we could say that it is certainly a mythic truth.

Obviously, I am going into the realm of speculation that fantasy, but I am wondering what mythic visions can take us beyond the mess we are in? I think that this applies on the personal and collective level. I am not saying that this is more important than the political, economic and social dimensions of life but I do believe that all these matters are deeper than what is apparent in the media. I am just wondering as an idle dreamer and when I added to the title this evening it was my call to the universe for some gems of wisdom to emerge from possible hitherto unexpressed ideas of members of the forum. — Jack Cummins

I think there are reasons to believe we are transitioning to a New Age. Transitions can be hard and this is not the first time a transition has lead to mass violence. It has happened throughout history often as a result of technology changing the workforce and economy. "The Mayan Factor" mentions an economic collapse so I am not too worried about what covid is doing to all the economies. This is a wake call telling us we need to figure out another way to think about money and it goes with no longer being labor-intense economies.

Perhaps we should consider there was a time when all money had value because it was made with gold or silver, copper and nickel. The US took these metals out of their coins and now we have coins with no value. Paper was backed by gold and then silver and that is no longer true. I think we all are living on credit and how much we can borrow depends on our gross national product. That is pretty abstract and to avoid economic collapse we might have to take that further?

People have thought we were transitioning to the New Age before. They associated it with the Enlightenment which has greatly improved our lives. When we had electricity and lighted our streets and homes, some thought this was the New Age that fulfilled the Enlightenment dream. But that technology was not the technology of the New Age. Now it is thought our rapid communication is the
the technology of the New Age and this may be.

What China is doing with cell phone technology is interesting. The government can watch everyone and gives people points for "good behavior" and punishment follows "bad behavior" and many seem as delighted with this as a child at Christmas with a new toy. Such government surveillance of individuals is alarming to Americans but effectively is what China is doing, leading to a stronger and bigger beehive, and will it be emulated? We have allowed businesses to invade our personal computers and record our personal information. I hate the changes to my online experiences and lost control of how my computer functions but I live with them because what is the alternative? We have spoken of group consciousness before.

The New Age is a time of high tech and peace and the end of tyranny. It is a new consciousness so different from the past, people can no longer relate to the past. I think this is possible.

I found it amusing that you googled the philosophy of disasters and found my name. However, in a way I am not that surprised but that is why I try to be a bit careful how much personal information I disclose. I don't want to create a pseudonym, so I just try to make sure that I can stand according to what I write.

I got a different response to my google search this time and the subject is very complicated and because it involves governing the people, it might be something that interests you.

On a more serious note, I do worry at times that it is the end times of history. What is worse is that if belief in this becomes a self'fulfilling prophecy. I think that the idea of the end of history was a core part in the arms race, especially some American strands of Christianity. Really, I think that we are at a crossroads and we, as a collective force, may determine the fate of humanity. I find this scary. Of course, the leaders play a key role but perhaps what each of us thinks and does is important too. Perhaps we are all like individuals cells in a gigantic organism and no one can say how much influence one has in the grand scheme. — Jack Cummins

I did a different google search and got a different result. The link explains a disaster philosophy could shape government policy and that means a possible career choice for you.

Philosophy and Disaster
Posted on April 2006
Naomi Zack

ABSTRACT: Philosophers have traditionally written from the perspective of ordinary people and they are as vulnerable to fear as other members of the public. Academic philosophers can contribute to the multi-disciplinary field of homeland security and disaster studies through extensions of social contract theory from political philosophy, and applications of moral systems. The idea of a state of nature is relevant to government’s role in disaster preparation, response and planning, because disasters often result in a second state of nature. All three of the main ethical systems of virtue ethics, deontology, and consequentialism, are relevant to disaster-related situations in ways that suggest the importance of being able to combine all three. Both the applications of political philosophy and moral theory can be augmented by John Rawls’s idea of distributive justice and Jean-Jacques Rousseau’s idea of the common good. Finally, the inevitability of human mortality, as emphasized by existentialist philosophers, can create a wider perspective on disaster.
https://www.hsaj.org/articles/176 — Naomi Zack

Getting in touch with our mortality and facing a disaster as big as this pandemic may change us. But we need to think beyond the disaster itself. I think one reason we are prone to war is we don't really grasp the reality. History calls men who lead senseless wars "Great" and they have been honored and children have been encouraged to play war games. I wonder how we may have evolved if women wrote philosophy and history? When women write of war it is not the story men write. Here is an example of how a woman wrote of war...
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/06/books/review/war-how-conflict-shaped-us-by-margaret-macmillan-an-excerpt.html

So in a pandemic, might the experience be different if women have power? I certainly think so. Many women have power today, and not since Roosevelt has the federal government of the US done so much to help citizens. Roosevelt's wife had a strong influence on him. When Bill Clinton gave his wife political power, he was perceived as weak, and she had to stop being so public about her participation in the policies her husband was working on. The US has not been accepting of a woman or person of color in the presidency. This appears to be changing and how the US is responding to this crisis is new for us.

Yeap the subject can be complex. And Jack, I think what is happening could be controlled by forces out of our control. It could have direction and purpose. I just like the New Age story a whole lot better than the Christian one.

Unfortunately, no. Everything I know about them is based on our visits. I used to work for a company that did a lot of business in Japan.

Don't get me wrong, they can also be complete animals (as in the WWII, and there's still crime and everything, and this whole dolphin and whale slaughter ritual they have) and sometimes they can get rowdy and racist when they're drunk but as soon as an authority figure sees what's happening, they immediately fall in line and make a very loud apology and express their shame.

On our last trip, we saw a man lying on the sidewalk. There were two police officers "guarding" him. I didn't know what it was then we found out that the man had too much to drink and had passed out. The police were protecting him. Wow.

So, their culture is simply about doing what's right. They have this Code of bushido or this code of honor that exemplifies loyalty, honor, righteousness. It got lost somewhere in the war but upon losing, they went back to this code and completely went away from war becoming more pacifist - I'm assuming it's from the Buddhist influence. They also have the Shinto Religion - many gods for all sorts of things (mainly nature).

Interestingly, Christianity was introduced but then it was largely met with hostility and was completely banned by government. Christians had to worship in secret caves and such. But of course it's all open now but you don't see Japanese flocking to it since they already have a very strong sense of cultural identity.

It's like that in many places where you have such divided politics and the division itself has become part of the culture - Democrat, Republican, for example. Any kind of division is an obstacle. And that gap appears to be quite large and so, needs a lot of bridging. But bridging will be difficult if you have whole populations actively or violently trying to tear those bridges down. — 8livesleft

The US also had a standard of horror and it was very much a part of our education. We used heroes from around the world and since the earliest civilizations, to teach every single child how to be a hero.

We totally understood some people were not as smart as others and they would be laborers while others would go on to the college, but everyone learned of the little boy who saved his town by putting his thumb in the hole in the dam. Everyone has an important part to play and we have lost that notion.
Doctors doctored for the love of healing and lawyers worked for a love of justice and journalist knew they were defending our democracy. This was the effect of using hero stories and folklore to teach morality and citizenship.

I am sure this was damaged by the Great Depression and world war. When young ladies began wearing bras and shorts and then became pin-up girls motivating the men to wear uniforms, our society was changed in a fundamental way, and the change was pushed further by WWII and the more advanced technology of that war and the 1958 National Defense Education Act putting the advancement of technology above human values, putting competition above cooperation. Now we have a history of giving our lives for our liberty and we are thinking we will be better off when we surrender our liberty to robots and computers. We are valuing technology more than human values.

I am sure unless we agree with Thomas Jefferson about the importance of education for a strong and united republic, we will fail. If our education does not return to the set of American values that every child learned, and continues to put technology, and money, above human values, we may not get through the transition that must be made at this time.

Seriously it should be obvious to everyone that the God of Abraham religions are divisive and leading us to the last days. We may not wear masks, but Israel is ignoring the wisdom of respecting Palestinians and working with them for peace, dragging all of us into wars and possibly the final war. Seeing the world today and believing we are in the last days, could make this the last days. But the Greeks saw life as a fire and that someday the fire would be greater than what is left to consume. Human values and science are very important right now.

Yes, life is too stressful. Even though I am so relieved that my mum was negative for Covid_19 I have not recovered really from all the anxiety of yesterday.

I do agree with not being able to drink coffee is awful, worse than not being able to play music really. I think coffee is the elixir for philosophy. I remember when I was at work if something really awful happened other staff members knew that I needed a coffee in order to think clearly.

I would say that philosophy loses its meaning when it becomes too detached from our life experiences and that is probably why I started this post about disasters. I don't understand why people want to engage in discussions which are more like word games.

The most ancient philosophers asked big questions but they were also engaged with the issues of day to day existence. Some people might choose to ignore this thread because there is a thread on Coronavirus already, but I am concerned about what the situation we are being thrown into. I think that we are being pushed in directions we never expected, and it requires a whole new way of seeing and existing. — Jack Cummins

Perfect, you totally get the importance of coffee. :grin:

And thank you! I am not interested in philosophical discussions that are like word games. They give philosophy a bad reputation and so turn people off they make no attempt to learn of philosophy. That is a shame.

Whoo, dude! I just googled for a philosophy dealing with disaster and your thread comes up. I wanted the name of a philosopher whose philosophy includes how disasters affect us and tell us how to think through the hard times, but all that is there is your thread. So Jack will you become the expert philosopher everyone turns to for understanding how to cope with disasters or the importance of hard times to our ability to cope with life?

I do not know exactly how philosophy differs from psychology, and while some philosophers have addressed the importance of history I am not sure if anyone has adequately explained our human experience. Explaining how natural disasters have influenced Japan is a step in the right direction, but in the US we seem to live in denial of how wars and economic crashes shape our human experience. We speak of life going back to normal, but what does that mean for children whose ideas of life and "normal" are forming during covid?

There is something deeper here. I am not sure what that is. For the people of the God of Abraham, there is the expectation of the last days. Mayans had a calendar and an expectation of cyclical good years and bad years building to a critical moment in time when heaven and earth are one. New Age believers can see all that talk as different points of view of the same thing. We have lived with a notion of what is to come and does that help us cope or hinder us? Is running around without a mask and insisting on gathering at church and relying on God and welcoming the last days, working well with those of us who rely on science? :chin:

Actually my story has no one killing anyone, simply reducing the ability to procreate. No suffering for anyone existing. Indeed even the knowledge of the reduction would not be a factor as the change would take place over a number of generations.

My story was not to disparage the teaching of Kant, but to point out that the perspective and values of the individual determine the interpretation and application of Kant's framework. — Book273

Hum, presently international organizations are attempting to reduce procreation by giving women jobs. When women have jobs other than caring for family, and children are most likely going to become adults, people have fewer children. So in your story, how is procreation reduced?

I am writing a joint reply because it seems most appropriate because I just had a scare that my mother had Covid_19. I got a phone call this evening, but fortunately a test was done very promptly and she was negative, but until I got the call I was in a panic. But I told my flatmates that I might have to self-isolate because I saw my mum a few days ago and one of them said that I had better go and be with her. I could not believe the ignorance of this. But of course it is a big relief that she has a chest infection rather than the virus.

However, I did go into disaster mode. I would also be meant to self-isolate if she had it because I saw her 3 days ago. This would be extremely difficult in shared accommodation. The policy makers do not realise how difficult all the rules and regulations are difficult to practice in settings such as accommodation with shared facilities. I know that the level of the virus has escalated in London in spite of lockdown. I wonder if this is because many people are in cramped, overcrowded living arrangements. I was able to distance far better until everyone was told to stay at home, because I found private corners.

Anyway, I am trying to rise above potential disasters and hoping that an electrician will come to look at my socket. The landlord said he does not know if anyone can come during lockdown but that could be 2 months or more. I will get a lot of reading done if I am not able to use any electrical items in my room. I am having to charge my phone in the kitchen and will have to buy batteries to listen to CDs.

I hope that future posts are not about me wallowing in my own disasters as if people log into this site for the first time and see this out of context they will think the thread is about moaning. Of course, I don't object if people do share their experiences of disaster because philosophy is about real life rather than pure theory. It may be about trying to juggle the two together creatively.
17 hours ago
Jack Cummins
799
I just saw an article on my phone saying that scientists have noticed that the world is spinning faster than it has ever done in 50 years in 2021. The last time it was spinning this fast was in 1937, so I am wondering if this will have any implications for our energy vibrations and experience. Perhaps it may make the experience of the pandemic seem slightly shorter. — Jack Cummins

My daughter and granddaughter have high-risk jobs. They have been in the same space with infected people. My daughter was sharing an office with an infected co-worker so she has been in quarantine this past week. That means everyone, where she works, has been overloaded with work with two people missing.

Actually, I am kind of holding my breath because I am waiting for a phone call. If I do not get a phone call by 10 a.m. I tested negative. It is not because of my family that I am being tested, but it is required before I do a stress test to check my heart, and I can't drink coffee today :grimace: That is a serious problem! I depend on coffee to get through the day.

My granddaughter's daughter is living with a caregiver and there will be emotional ramifications to this. My granddaughter's son was living with the same caregiver but did not do well there so he returned home and is old enough to care for himself but I don't think he is doing his school work as he should. A lot of children just are not doing their school work but fortunately, the daughter living with a caregiver is doing school work beyond her grade. She gets along perfectly with her care giver and loves being her teacher's favorite student. So there are some children who are excelling in school and that has to make getting through the pandemic easier for them. They are busy doing something they need to do and can be satisfied with their progress. Instead of every day being as the day before and no progress.

And yes, Jack, if philosophy is not about our everyday experiences, then what purpose does it have? Some threads in the forum are so philosophically purest, so dependent on having a good understanding of something in a book, that I totally avoid them. They are meaningless to me. I want philosophy that applies to be my struggles. It is philosophy that helped me keep my sanity when times were rough.

The scale of equality and heirarchy struck me as odd, as it implies that equal societies do not favor strong heirarchical structures. I think this is not the case. After all, use of authority is required to enforce equality, as it will not arise naturally. — Tzeentch

For sure liberal education makes each person his/her own authority. And it is with this authority that we vote for the best leaders and gladly follow those leaders, while we stand ready to take their place of leadership if need be.

I was a Toastmistress for many years and at first, thought being the club president would be the best position to have. :rofl: The other members prepared me for taking on that responsibility as everyone who joined the club was prepared to do. Then my day came to take increasingly greater responsibility, as the treasurer, then as the secretary, and finally as the president. The greatest service is required of the president. It is not a role to envy but a duty to fulfill and to pass on to the next person as soon as possible. Like George Washington.

Our democracy came out of the enlightenment and like the democratic model for industry is suppose to be about helping everyone be the best s/he can be so s/he can make her/his contribution to society. Democracy is about all of us working together. It is a shifting hierarchy, not a static one.

Please also share your thoughts on the relationship between these different axes.

Are liberty and equality (so likewise authority and hierarchy) two sides of the same coin, where you can't have one without the other? Or is each a threat to the other, where one must choose which is more important to them?

Is the status quo one of liberty or authority, equality or hierarchy?

Which of these values belong to the "left", and which belong to the "right"?
a day ago
Reply
Options — Pfhorrest

Only highly moral people can have liberty and only well-educated people can be highly moral. So how well educated is the population? Our Statue of Liberty holds a book for literacy and a torch for the enlightenment of literate people. Unfortunately, the masses in the US are no longer educated to understand what literacy and good moral judgment have to do with liberty and democracy. Since 1958 they have been prepared to be products for industry and to rely on authority. Their dependence on authority justifying the need for authority over the people and this gave us Trump as our great leader. Big mistake! The mistake beginning with the change in education in 1958.

Hum checking what others have said, it appears I misunderstood the purpose of the discussion. This may not help but I believe we should live by 3 rules because they eliminate most social problems.

We respect all people because we are respectful. This is totally about who we are not who the other person is.

We protect the dignity of others.

We do everything with integrity.