Did you tell me to mind my own business?

Our insecurity, tribal natures and reliance on law. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

We take being civilized for granted and that is a big mistake. I hope we learn better because if our economy crashes before we understand what makes us civil, the consequences could be very ugly.

God did not become a loving God until our bellies were full. The tribe can be predatory and even cannibals. The tribe can own slaves and treat them like subhumans. I don't think we can count on our tribal nature to make us civil. For sure it is not insecurity and laws that make us civil. Look at what happened in Germany and Japan, and ancient China or the Aztecs.

Oh my, I see. You know what you know and that is not much, and it will not change unless you want to change it. I will leave you alone with what you want to believe.

Was that directed at me? Where then is the decision to your reference? I need a little more meat on my legs to justly answer it. — Eleonora

That question came after your quote, in the same post, so yes the question is directed at you.

You are explaining reality to us and I am asking what do know about the rest of the world, that justifies what you believe about civilization depending on a particular religion. I understand civilizations have depended on religions, but any religion will do. Why do you say only one religion can result in a civilization?

Ancient civilizations existed for thousands of years. Why do appear to deny this?

Well, if you twist the definition enough, you can claim anything. Maybe you want to argue this with your local muslim cleric... as you know, according to islamic doctrine, we are all born muslim, only we kuffar refuse to acknowledge that.... which is why Allah hates us. — Nobeernolife

Muslims do not hate us. How many of them do you know? There are fanatics in every religion who have some pretty awful ideas and there are normal people who have some pretty awful ideas and I think we can do better than this.

Is your beef with Muslims related to Israel?

PS
I see I misinterpreted your post. You said Allah hates us, not Muslims hate us. Sure God hates us so much He intended to destroy all of humanity in a flood. He hates us so much some believe He created a hell to torment us for eternity. Or He hates us so much He unleashed Satan on earth to torment us. I really try to be respectful, but those stories of Allah/God are not explanations of reality that I can respect.

No compromise. I do however concur about civilizations presuming to exist without Christianity. I do not recognize any to exist without Christ however. Were we to consider Christianity the Church of Christ, it is about to figure out where Jesus fits into the picture. Whether he exists or not is non-essential for whichever conclusions we might derive at. According to Christianity, be it the church of Christ or not - Jesus said: "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."; John 13:35. Whoever coined that phrase; is Christ in my opinion. Everything around it is mere happenstance.

So is there really civilization without Christianity? Be it by happenstance or a blessing by God. Being a Christian is about following Jesus and this is it. — Eleonora

And after studying the other religions how did you come to that decision?

Honestly? Jesus Christ - I reckon. I put all my hopes in that basket. — Eleonora

That is not how I believe. I think that belief is very problematic so I must speak against it, but I hesitate to do that because I know without that belief some people could not function. This is a real dilemma for me wanting people to have a better understanding of humans and a more helpful understanding or reality, and not wanting to hurt those who really need their faith in God, Allah, Jesus, Hindu gods. ect.. Can we compromise? There are civilizations without Christianity, right?

Hopefully to a consolation: I am sure to be at the cradle of an eternal civilization. We have much to consolidate ourselves with, but our wills are strong and intent on living together. We are gonna make it. — Eleonora

:chin: What do you think makes us civilized?

Quite obviously only that which benefits our survival can promote the life of our species and if we are ignorant and make bad choices, death is the consequence. I think at this point in time we can not be sure our species will survive another thousand years.

That is is correct. Empathy and unselfish behaviour exists in all evolved species that live in societies. — Nobeernolife

I am glad we could agree on something.

We have come a long way since Darwin. You might want to read "Science of Good and Evil" before you defend your argument that evolutionists can't explain our good and our bad behavior.

Now it is nap time. :yawn: Thinking requires more energy than most the things we do, and we programmed to not think too much.

A nonintellectual person is apt to have beliefs s/he does not question and goes through life reacting to everything based on the belief.

An intellectual person questions everything even what s/he thinks. This person searches for information and rethinks what s/he believes is true when a new thought contradicts an old one, or the new thought has the opposite effect of realizing a larger meaning of an old fact or seeing how one thing is related to another. Seeing the bigger picture. That is what enlightenment is about, gaining a greater sense of meaning, and the nontellectual person will never have that experience. On the other hand, the intellectual person will have more moments of enlightenment in the later years of life.

Evolutionists are having a hard time explaining why we are so good to each other. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Not true. We are good to each other for the same reason other social animals are good to each other. Our problem is not recognizing our limits that are biologically determined. It is when we attempt to function beyond our limits that we get into trouble, and civilizations are far beyond our biological limits and would not be possible without religion or a very good understanding of democracy.

Cabbage Farmer
231
The whole debate annoys me because if God wanted us to remain ignorant He could have designed our brains to be no different than the rest of the animals.
— Athena
Doesn't every sort of animal have its own sort of brain?

Aren't all the brains similar to all the others in some respect or other? And some more than others in this or that respect? — Cabbage Farmer

Our brains are the product of evolution. We being with the reptilian brain. The next layer is the evolved mammalian brain. Then comes the devolved cortex that is what separates us from the rest of the animals.

Doesn't it seem reasonable to suppose that the structure of our brains does indeed make it impossible for us to know some things and impossible for us to think about some things? — Cabbage Farmer

Absolutely! This is why I think it is so important to dump religious myths and deal with the reality of our evolution. Definitely our thinking is very limited, but we have far more freedom of choice than any other animal. Actually our survival depended on males getting as many females pregnant as possible, and the division of labor resulting in males and females evolving differently. Our survival depended on groups, not single unit families advocated by the Bible that was written by city dwellers. Competition and jealousy is instinctual and our morality evolved to reduce the tensions when we became better thinkers.

Is there some reason to suppose that minds like ours can "know everything" and "think about everything"? — Cabbage Farmer

The more we know, the more we know of what we do not know. What we know is extremely limited and we seriously need to respect that. What we think about is extremely limited. Proof, what do you know of bureaucratic organization and our liberty or lack of it? How much time have you spent thinking about that? Before you can even begin to think about that, there a few books you need to read so you know what there is to know. We have specialized because it is absolutely impossible for individuals to be experts on all things.

Is there some reason to suppose that something exists that "knows everything" and that can "think about everything"? — Cabbage Farmer

I used to contemplate that and the more I learn of quantum physics the less confident I am of such a consciousness. However, clearly matter reacts to matter and I think this forms a consciousness, but it is not a thinking consciousness as we have, any more than a worm reacting to sunlight is thinking as we think.

How should we characterize "knowledge of everything" and the capacity to "think about everything"? — Cabbage Farmer

We should not. We should not confuse having a lot of facts with having knowledge. To my way of thinking, a fact is not knowledge until experience gives us a sense of meaning.

I've heard that many of the birds that mate for life catch some action on the side now and then. Perhaps we should say in this regard they aren't so different from the humans who behave likewise. — Cabbage Farmer

No, we should not say that. The only other animal I know of that is as sexual as humans is the bonobo.
Birds do not mate until they have built a nest and their ability to build nests is restricted by nature. They can not overpopulate and they don't have sex for any other reason. For humans, sex is not just about reproduction but, as it is for bonobos, sex is also about bonding and social organization.

It's well established that chimps are among the nonhuman animals with something like a sense of fairness, compassion, community, friendship, and playfulness. They're intelligent problem-solvers with creative imagination and reliable memory. They form rational expectations informed by experience. They conceive ranges of alternative outcomes and adopt attitudes of expectation analogous to our attitudes of belief, wonder, doubt, and hope.

On the other hand, consider the peculiar atrocities and the irresponsible, selfish, and hateful acts committed by human beings every day. — Cabbage Farmer

Not all mammals are social animals that depend on the group, however chimps and humans are mammals that are social animals dependent on the group. I don't know of atrocities committed by humans being worse than the atrocities committed by animals. Our technology can make our actions more dramatic but I think the nature of the act is the same?

]

Does anyone have any other incites or what they like the most about this story. — christian2017

I feel confident that when the stories were first told they were not fiction, but when everyone who remembered the events died, the stories became fiction.

I believe Eden was in the area of Iran where geologists believe they have found the 4 rivers. The geologists also see evidence of a flood and a long draught. So we are told a goddess became angry when the river (water god) ate her plants (flood), and she cursed the river to death(drought). The river almost died (dried up) and a fox convinced the goddess to let the river live. Then the river asked the goddess to provide help so it could stay in banks and she made a man and woman of mud and breathed life into them. I don't believe we are made of mud, but this is a logical explanation of our purpose, to keep the river in its banks.

"The Sumerian word for rib is ti, and the rib-healing goddess came to be called Ninti, which translates both as "the lady of the rib" and "the lady who makes live". This play on words does not work in Hebrew, but the rib did enter the Garden of Eden story in the form of Eve, the mother of the human race- "the lady who makes live". Interestingly the words Eden and Adam also appear in cuneiform. Eden means "uncultivated plain"; Adam, "settlement on the plain"."Time-Life Lost Civilizations Sumer: Cities of Eden".

That is telling us people who carried this story of a flood and a draught returned to the valley when things returned to normal and they returned to cultivation the plane and this time they attempted to control the flow of the river.

My posts carry a knife? What is that even supposed to mean?? — Nobeernolife

Okay, I will try this again.

I do not know what you prattling about — Nobeernolife

Do you see a cutting remark in that quote? I could be wrong, but that appears to be a disrespectful comment, a cutting remark. That is what I mean by your post carry a knife. Often they come with cutting comments.

I think you missed the point. I don't know about you but I find it very hard to focus on the subject when I want to lash out at someone. I also I know I like myself much better when I can do that, than when I regret something I said. This is about being a better person, and the better human beings we become, the more good we can contribute and the less harm we do. Attacking people will not improve us or them. Focusing on the reasoning can improve both.

What is important for a person can be what is true. The culture wars are wrapped around that connection. Being a progressive is about embracing a better way to do things and developing a more just society. It also is about the connection between the personal and the political that is a the heart of the different iterations of "Christianity."

One of the interesting elements of Elaine Pagels' book about the Gnostic Gospels is that the demand for inclusion by the church was not just about all the bad things it produced. A vision of the universal seems to be a terrible thing in many ways. But sorting out what should be embraced or rejected on that basis is exactly what the connection between the personal and the political needs to struggle with. — Valentinus

Now that is a good post. I am saying so with the hope others will follow your example.

You make me ponder your thoughts, and I notice I am doing so with my immediate concern for my sister who has been evicted because she will not stop caring for the homeless. No one cared about her activity until the pandemic hit and the risk of mingling with others has gone sky-high. I love my sister and I support what she is doing, but this morning I woke with the awareness that she is putting the homeless in greater risk by insisting on mingling with them. Especially with no home, she can not keep herself clean and this escalates the risk to herself and everyone else.

I want to make a point here. My sister is judging herself and everyone else with a value that we should not turn our backs on vulnerable people. I agree with her that ignoring the needs of the people she helps is equal to a neighborhood hearing a woman scream for help and looking out their windows to see that she is being beaten, and doing nothing because they do not want to get involved. That is obviously a human wrong and we are obviously committing this wrong. However, if we judge the circumstances, and that she is a risk to herself and everyone else, including the people she wants to help and her family, then what is right and what is wrong is different. Our present reality demands a different action.

I have concerns that religion leads to judging people. Science leads to judging circumstances. Perhaps we want to be mindful of these different judgments? Moral thinking is avoiding harm and that is a balance of human values and science.

“God's law is 'right reason.' When perfectly understood it is called 'wisdom.' When applied by government in regulating human relations it is called 'justice.”
― Marcus Tullius Cicero — Cicero

For those who don't already know, for Cicero god's law is nature or universal law, not the stories told by Greeks or written in holy books.

Reading comprehension? I did not find "fault in the poster", I said the reference that he posted does not match the claim. Nothing to do with culture. — Nobeernolife

Hum, that is true, but for some reason, your posts seem to carry a knife.

I do not know what you prattling about. — Nobeernolife

That is not an innocent statement and I do not enjoy such cutting remarks. They are like a cloud ruining a sunny day.

Yes the Roman Papacy really sucks.

Do you believe in aliens? — christian2017

Wow, what are you thinking? That seems to be an insult, not a reasonable argument? Is it your intention to dismiss reason and insult someone? It requires a lot of effort to stick reasoning and I am sure you do want to do better.

I do not know what you prattling about. You claimed that the pope at the financed Nazi death camps, and the "reference" you provided described something different. I was simply asking to cut down on hyperbole and use more clear language.
And whatever Catholic priests did in Croatia, it does not change the fact that the Muftii of Jerusalem was advising Hitler and recruiting muslim Nazi SS regiments. — Nobeernolife

Perhaps your post would be more pleasant if you understood what we can understand depends on what you already know. When people are from different cultures are trying to communicate, what they know will be different, and these people may have trouble understanding each other. Stop finding fault in the poster, and take this cultural difference into consideration. Because you are not understanding people that does not mean without question they are doing a poor job of communicating. Politely ask more questions or politely explain your different preceptive from your culture or study of history and be tactful.

Suicide stats belie this. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Just this morning while playing a word game I realized "belie" is part of the word "believe". That seems to indicate whose words are part of the consciousness of the "fruit of knowledge".

NoberernoLife will NEVER acknowledge that Allah cannot hate the followers of the god of Abraham...because Allah IS the god of Abraham.

Nobeer is not interested in a discussion of what is true...he is interested in venting his hatred toward Muslims. Okay...for some people that is a good thing, perhaps an important thing, to do.

I think the position you should take on this now is informed by something any sailor might tell you: Don't piss into the wind. — Frank Apisa

Thank you. :lol: The way I am built it is really hard to piss into the wind. I could try spitting into the wind but I don't think that would work so well either.

Seriously I think you stated the argument better than I have. Clearly stating Allah is the God of Abraham. Period nothing to argue.

Do you have a reference where a) the bible and b) the bible thumpers call for the DEATH of homosexuals?
Please show it, otherwise I call BS on you. — Nobeernolife

Really you are not aware of news in the USA and Christians interpreting the Bible to justify discrimination and even brutalizing of homosexuals?

Nazi Germany
While many of the Christian majority countries in Europe, the Americas and Asia had begun to decriminalise homosexuality by the mid 20th century, Adolf Hitler and the National Socialist German Workers Party, with intense far-right nationalist support, outlawed homosexual groups and included homosexuals as one of the minority groups sent to concentration camps. An estimated 3000-9000 homosexuals died in concentration camps between 1933 and 1945, with another 2000-6000 survivors made to serve the rest of their sentence in prison under Paragraph 175.

United Kingdom
From 1533 the capital felony for any person to "commit the detestable and abominable vice of buggery with mankind or beast", was repealed and re-enacted several times, until it was reinstated in 1563 remaining unchanged until 1861.[26] The last execution took place on 27 November 1835 when James Pratt and John Smith were hanged at Newgate.

One source claims the last execution for sodomy in the British Empire happened in the Colony of Tasmania (now part of Australia) in 1867.[27]

United States and colonial America
See also: Sodomy laws in the United States
Colonial America had the laws of the United Kingdom, and the revolutionary states took many of those laws as the basis of their own, in some cases verbatim.[26] The last law where the death penalty was on the statute books was South Carolina, the old British law was not repealed until 1873, twelve years after the mother country.[26]

The number of times the penalty was carried out is unknown. Records support two executions, and a number of more uncertain convictions, such as "crimes against nature".[26]

I doubt if we would be speaking of this if individuals didn't take matters into the own hands and act on that same mentality of the past, killing and persecuting homosexuals today.

Search Results
Web results
History of violence against LGBT people in the United States ...
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › History_of_violence_against_LGBT_peo...
The history of violence against LGBT people in the United States is made up of assaults on gay men, lesbians, bisexual, and transgender individuals (LGBT), ...

‎Violence against LGBT ... · ‎1990–1999 · ‎2000–2009 · ‎2010–2019
Significant acts of violence against LGBT people - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Significant_acts_of_violence_against_LG...
Jump to United States - The police had historically described his death as suicide, but a 2017 inquest — the third on his death — admitted he was murdered ...

US man charged with triple murder targeting LGBT victims - BBC
https://www.bbc.com › news › world-us-canada-48564480
Jun 7, 2019 - According to the prosecutor's office, Mr Davis and Mr Blancher were gay men, and Ms Cameron was transgender, US media said. Prosecutors ...

Detroit Man Charged in 3 Killings Targeted L.G.B.T. People ...
https://www.nytimes.com › 2019/06/08 › us › detroit-lgbtq-killing
Jun 8, 2019 - Officials said the man, Devon Robinson, shot the victims — two of whom were gay and one who was a transgender woman — on May 25. An ...

L.G.B.T. People Are More Likely to Be Targets of Hate Crimes ...
https://www.nytimes.com › interactive › 2016/06/16 › us › hate-crimes-ag...
Jun 16, 2016 - Even before the shooting rampage at a gay nightclub in Orlando, Fla., lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people were already the most ...

Yes. All who do not kowtow to Christianity are to eventually be destroyed. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Looks true to me. The Christian right not only elected Bush Jr. and Cheny, but they got them reelected after the wrongful invasion of Iraq. We could also speak of the Zionist Christians and Israel's failure to meet United Nations mandates and Trump's approval of Israel's land grab and the Christian Right that supports him.

Ditto in Christianity and the bible to those who want to interpret it that way. Right wing Christians do. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

That is the correct fact. And now about the treatment of people with dark skins and or Native Americans, Christians do not have a good track record.

dismiss the Old Testament because it precedes Christianity by 3000 years. Fundamentally, it is a something for the Jews to deal with.
Fact is that the Jesus figure (and it is irrelevant if he existed or not) never fought wars, ordered and conducted murder and rape, had sex slaves, married 6-year olds, and ruled an empire with an iron fist. I could go on, but I think the difference to the "perfect man" of islam should be obvious. — Nobeernolife

Fine, Let us agree there is no big difference between the God of Abraham religions and they are all based on the same false beliefs and unacceptable behaviors and end this argument.

Except I haven't seen an explanation of when Christians stopped behaving badly. They still have Jim Crow mentality in the South of the US and it was not that long ago when segregation was a very ugly reality including terrorism to keep the dark skinned people powerless. The Native Americans are still not respected and they were treated very badly by the WASP who took their land. And when did one Christian group stop persecuting and killing another? When? What happened that changed the mentality of Christians and lead to them respecting all people and protecting everyone's rights equally?

We actually do begin in paradise, from a babies POV. All their needs and wants are being met, hopefully, by a parent and the tribe that one is born in. That heavenly situation changes of course when the child grows up and has to start providing for others and his tribe. That is when duty makes most think that they are no longer in heave. Lest we forget though, gods are created to serve mankind and not the other way around like what G D self serving churches do. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Yes! When I was a Toastmistess I thought being President was the best thing in the world. Little did I know long term members didn't run for president because they understood the responsibility of serving others was not a piece of cake. :lol: Being a god would be much worse.

You are way more knowledgeable on this issue.

From the little I know of the German and Japanese systems, they have a well organized, unionized work force and those have been shown to be more productive. Meanwhile, many of the Western governments try hard to fight against organized and unionized workers to the detriment of production and advancement. Seeing this is partly why my socio economic demography pyramid theory is based on organized guilds that would bring production to it's highest possible degree.
— "

My introduction to the democratic model was a seminar for supervisors. Number one, as people in a democracy, should understand, the leaders are responsible, and if an employee screws up, the leader assumes responsibility for this and checks to be sure s/he did a good job of explaining the task that was screwed up. Next, remain encouraging, do not blame or threaten because stressing employees makes it harder for them to perform well, Imagine the effect on families if this what people experienced when they went to work.

Consider the way of autocratic industry, blaming and punishing and threatening because displeasing the person in charge can mean being fired and loosing everything, including one's car, home, and family. Being insubordinate is forbidden! Ignoring the employees who point out problems and corrections is common. Constantly demeaning the laborer is common. Now the parent teaches the child to survive in this reality by being as terrible as the employer. But if you check the Bible the democratic way is not taught. The autocratic way is taught and the male hierarchy of authority holds all the power.

We are so used to impediments from governments that it is doubtful that our Western societies will move that way — "

:love: This is too good to last. You are opening the door for me to explain what I feel passionate about. We are living under Prussian Military order applied to citizens. There are excellent reasons for this but it crushes individual liberty and power and we defended our democracy against this. But there are serious problems with the bureaucracy we had before adopting the Prussian Military model, and we were made aware of the problems when we shifted to the new model. Now like the followers of Hitler we think we are superior to all others and this smells of fascism.

It seems that many, especially in the simplistic uneducated U.S. that, socialist, to many, means something other than democracy with necessary and required social programs. They see social one payer medicine and education as pure invasive socialism.

Stupid is as stupid thinks and the U.S is intentionally dumbing down it's population just as religion tries and has succeeding in doing. — "

This pandemic maybe changing our opinion about what it means to defend the citizens. A few people understood our health is a matter of national defense, but now just about everyone understands that.

Yes, the US is intentionally dumbing down the population because the Prussian MIlitary bureaucracy is about making decisions at the top and controlling with policies, that are made by committees that are dismissed once the policy is made. Now all the generals can be killed and the war will go on because not even the generals are needed to keep the beast alive. All that is required is for the citizens to follow policy. I like the Christian concept of the beast because it so totally applies. When Roman was fighting for its life, it became the beast consuming all resources into the defense of Rome as is the case of the US today.

That was a mix of many concepts and I hope it all makes sense. Prussian Military bureaucracy makes the beast very strong but this is not sustainable. I can not think of a better attack on the beast than the pandemic! Kill the economy and the beast dies, civilizations fall. That is the Military-Industrial Complex comes crashing down and right now, life in the US depends on the beast staying alive. That is leading to insane economic decisions. Just like Rome. Only this time besides the threat of China and Russia and the mid-east unraveling, a bug too small to see is having the effect of an atomic bomb on wall street and throughout the economy. The beast must have oil and money or it dies. Get it? The barbarians are pandemics.

I don´t think Christianity is about "kings and slaves", unless you talk about the old Testament, which precedes Christianity by 3000 years or so. That stuff is really a Jewish problem it seems to me. Jesus was a powerless hippie type who did not interfere with the authorities and in fact allowed them to kill him. So I do not really see how Xtianity has anything to do with a form of government.

Islam of course, is a completely different thing. Founded by a ruthless warlord, it is only about government and power. (Again, this is why the notion of islam being just some sort of oriental Xtianity is so naiive and ill-informed). — Nobeernolife

You cheat. You know the Bible is about kings and slaves and surely we claim the Bible is God's truth, and then you dismiss all the evil in the Bible, because of the Hellenized voice of Jesus giving us a new religion that should have never been tied to the old testament but had to be tied to the old testament to deify Jesus and justify the new religion with a history and the existing large population of Jews. It is very important this God be jealous, revengeful, fearsome and punishing because He is a God of war and slaves are part of the booty of war.

A ruthless warlord like David? He is the role model for Trump and his relationship with women. :rage:

The Bible contains several references to slavery, which was a common practice in antiquity. The biblical texts outline sources and legal status of slaves, economic roles of slavery, types of slavery, and debt slavery, which thoroughly explain the institution of slavery in Israel in antiquity.[1] The Bible stipulates the treatment of slaves, especially in the Old Testament.[2][3][4] There are also references to slavery in the New Testament.[5][6] — Wikipedia

Jesus was an anarchist because his family lived in poverty and the Pharisees, protected by Rome, enjoyed wealth that was built on the labor of the poor, just as it is today. There is no empirical proof of Jesus but to me, he seems pretty realistic and just like many 30-year anarchists today. However, I think the Bible writers gave him things to say that he didn't actually actually say. I think the myth of Jesus was built as the Greeks built their previous mythology. "The word" is a Greek concept and the Hellenized Jews created a better religion than God's favorite did. It is too bad it had to be tied to the jealous, revengeful, punishing and fearsome God and totally ridiculous stories of creation.

Being a supernatural god would be a bore I think.

Now being a human god without super powers, the epitome of being human, would be us being true to our instincts that should be pushing us to be the fittest human we can be. In terms of our instincts, that would give us the right to get as many girls as we can get. Our instincts do not know that we live in societies where such antics are frowned upon now that we have become apex predators instead of the weakest and most insecure animal on the planet.

This song says what we should all be trying to do. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

A reminder, I don't dare do Youtube because my internet time is limited by information bites and if I use them too fast, I wind up with no internet until the next billing cycle.

As for your argument, yes, the Greeks made those arguments and conclude with the same reasoning. We should excel to be as the Gods physically and mentally. Socrates is best known for his insistence that we must deliberately expand our consciousness, which totally opposed the Garden of Eden story and the sin of wanting knowledge. Socrates' teaching is beneath Cicero's conclusion that we are compelled to do the right thing when we know what that is. Knowledge is essential to good moral judgment and our liberty.

And it was not Christians who gave us democracy, but they have given us wars we should have not fought and Trump. :groan:

This is a typical example of deception by omission. Yes islamic rule does allow Jews and Christians to live as second-class citizens under Shariah..... but ONLY if they pay the islamic head tax, otherwise they get killed. Plus, they must not pray openly, build new churches or synagogues, prosyletize, criticize islam, or marry muslim women.

So by omitting the fine print of islamic rules, we are left with "allow them to practise their religions", which sounds oh-so-wonderfully touchy-feely nice. — Nobeernolife

And when did Christians start being any different? When?

I do not see that the "God of Abraham" has anything to do with democracy. To the contrary, Christianity has the concept of separation between church and state. — Nobeernolife

Yes, Christianity is about kings and slaves, not democracy. That is why I object so strongly to Christianity. It is not compatible with democracy, and a strongly object to Christians having the power to make someone like Trump the President of the US.

I did not say that "w other ideas of the God of Abraham are better". I explained (how many times now?) that seeing how Allah hates the followers of the God of Abraham, it would have to be schizophrenic god of you claim it is the same god. That is simple logic.

Is that really so hard to wrap your mind around? — Nobeernolife

You obviously have different information than I do, and I don't believe as you do. Is that so hard for you to get your head around? Here is what I believe is true.

People of the Book
Muslims believe that God had previously revealed Himself to the earlier prophets of the Jews and Christians, such as Abraham, Moses, and Jesus. Muslims therefore accept the teachings of both the Jewish Torah and the Christian Gospels. They believe that Islam is the perfection of the religion revealed first to Abraham (who is considered the first Muslim) and later to other prophets. Muslims believe that Jews and Christians have strayed from God's true faith but hold them in higher esteem than pagans and unbelievers. They call Jews and Christians the "People of the Book" and allow them to practice their own religions. Muslims believe that Muhammad is the "seal of the prophecy," by which they mean that he is the last in the series of prophets God sent to mankind. Muslims abhor the followers of later prophets. This attitude serves to explain the extreme Muslim animosity toward Bahais, followers of a nineteenth-century prophet, who in the Muslim mind is false.

https://www.pbs.org/empires/islam/faithpeople.html

Christians think Christianity is the perfection of the original of the God of Abraham's religion. I think that god is a false god and certainly would not argue one of the God of Abraham religions is better than secular thinking, science, and democracy. Those who think they know God, know God not. We experience the manifestation of the universe but we do not experience God, so there is absolutely no way to know God. People who think they know God and absolute truth are absolutely dangerous.

Industrial democracy is an arrangement which involves workers making decisions, sharing responsibility and authority in the workplace. While in participative management organizational designs workers are listened to and take part in the decision-making process, in organizations employing industrial democracy they also have the final decisive power (they decide about organizational design and hierarchy as well).[1]

In company law, the term generally used is co-determination, following the German word Mitbestimmung. In Germany, companies with more than 2000 employees (or more than 1000 employees in the coal and steel industries) have half of their supervisory boards of directors (which elect management) elected by the shareholders and half by the workers.

Although industrial democracy generally refers to the organization model in which workplaces are run directly by the people who work in them in place of private or state ownership of the means of production, there are also representative forms of industrial democracy. Representative industrial democracy includes decision-making structures such as the formation of committees and consultative bodies to facilitate communication between management, unions, and staff. — wilipedia

What does that have to do with religion? The God of Abraham has a kingdom not a democracy. One of the most important wars in history was the Maccabean revolt. They were Jews and went to war with the Greeks who were occupying the land at the time. The Greeks put anyone in offices who they thought could do the work, paying no attention to a Jewish person's linage and social position dependent on birth. The Greek way was merit hiring versus patrimony. You know patrimony, the way Trump is benefitting his family with his position as President of the US. Patrimony and goes with Trump's idea that it is okay for some people to have privileges that others do not have. God has favorites and rewards them or punishes as He sees fit. Trump. And that is not okay in a democracy, but Christians have the power to impose that on us and we are pushing back.

That is irrelevant to my comment. I was simply pointing out that the description of the Allah character is so different from the description of the Yahweh character, that if we claim it is the same god figure, this god figure has to be schizophrenic. I am not arguing about how the religious books came about, I am simply ,making a logical point. Why are you so onerary? — Nobeernolife

Since you are the authority on Islam and I most certainly am not, please correct this Wikipedia explanation of Allah and explain how other ideas of the God of Abraham are better.

n Islam, God (Arabic: الله‎, romanized: Allāh, contraction of الْإِلٰه al-ilāh, lit. "the God") is the absolute one, the all-powerful and all-knowing ruler of the universe, and the creator of everything in existence. Islam emphasizes that God is strictly singular (tawḥīd ); unique (wāḥid ); inherently One (aḥad );[1] and also all-merciful and omnipotent.[2] According to Islam, God is neither a material nor a spiritual being.[3] According to Islamic teachings, beyond the Throne[4] and according to the Quran, "No vision can grasp him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things."[5]

In Islam there is only one God and there are 99 names of that one God (al-asmāʼ al-ḥusná lit. meaning: "The best names"), each of which evokes a distinct attribute of God.[6][7] All these names refer to Allah, the supreme and all-comprehensive god.[8] Among the 99 names of God, the most familiar and frequent are "the Compassionate" (Ar-Raḥmān) and "the Merciful" (Ar-Raḥīm).[6][7] Creation and ordering of the universe is seen as an act of prime mercy for which all creatures praise God's attributes and bear witness to God's unity. — wikipedia

If foreknowledge is impossible, then god can not be omniscient.
As I said, you can not have it both ways. — Nobeernolife

You got that right.

That is a hierarchy of authority. It separates management from the laborer as Christianity separates those born to rule from those born to serve.

What the heck! Why are you so onerary? Mohammid plagiarized Jewish and Christian stories to write a book for Arabs. The mentality at that time was nothing like the loving God religion of Christianity today. The big division in the known world back then was the status of Jesus. Jews reject the notion he was the Messiah. Muslims accept Jesus as one of the prophets but does not deify him. The Christians killed each other over the argument about Jesus being God or the Son of God. How people understood this stuff depended on what they already believed. And it is all built on false beliefs. Humanity did not begin in Paradice. A God didn't make humans out of mud. That is a plagiarized Sumerian story. Whatever, it is the same pot of religious stew and I can not think of any good reason for arguing it is not.

Those people who believe their holy book is not true do not count as believers anymore. Try some logic. — Nobeernolife

They do not believe the other people's holy book and are willing to kill them. When none of the God of Abraham religions are based on truth. They are based on the same mythical Sumerian story.

Reality check we evolved as all animals evolved.

What is that even supposed to mean? — Nobeernolife

Most industry is built on the autocratic model, right? I said Germany has more industry based on the democratic model than the US but are there some industries in the US that use the democratic model. God of Abraham religions support monarchies and autocracy, not democracy. When we replaced our education based on Greek and Roman classics, with education for a technological society with unknown values and left moral training to the church we got a nation that understands the Bible and not democracy.

I do recognized the power of positive thinking and bio feedback but that is it. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Yeah, and I just wish we all agreed that is why prayers work. It is not a special gift from Jesus. It doesn't matter what religion a person is practicing nor how God is understood. Prayers work the same for people of all religions. It is about self-talk and our physical response. Believing the pill will get desired effects can work even if the pill is a placebo, depending on the health problem. Placebos do not replace amputated legs. But if we pray to god for the desire to go swimming everyday, that is something Jesus can give us, and then we might avoid the amputated leg.