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  • The philosophy of humor
    A serious and good philosophical work could be written consisting entirely of jokes. — Wittgenstein
  • Fermi Paradox & The Dark Forest
    One thing to consider in the solution of Fermi's paradox is the so-called Great Filter:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Filter

    The above was Robin Hanson's formulation back in the 60's.

    See also a modern analysis by Nick Bostrom, "Where are they? Why I hope the search for extraterrestrial life finds nothing".

    https://www.nickbostrom.com/extraterrestrial.pdf

    The basic idea being that there is a built-in limitation in the universe, that puts constraints to how far a civilization is allowed to go: at some point it either destroys itself, from within, or is destroyed by some external reason, from without.
  • Unshakable belief
    What about flat-earthers?
  • Against Nihilism
    Have a look at the link below, what prof Massimo Pigliucci wrote in his one and only appearance in TPF:

    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/358750

    What I find problematic, however, is some people in the humanities who claim that subjectivity is not just a limitation of science (it is), but also the way forward to some sort of alternative that goes "beyond" science. I think Husserlian phenomenology falls close to this position. The problem is that the whole approach seems to me to be predicated on not taking seriously one's own objections: if subjectivity and first-person experience cannot be treated by science then the answer isn't to create another "science" (or uber-science) that can handle it, but rather to accept that we as human beings are bounded to use a combination of third and first person approaches in order to arrive at understanding. — Massimo

    So this is what I am asking, whether this "coming up with a model" you said, would be a scientific model with scientific methodology, or as Massimo wrote, ... a combination to arrive at an understanding.

    but the objective truth of what they are actually touching still accounts for the senses they all experiencePfhorrest

    It seems to me that you would go for the first option, since you say that objective truth is involved, and science is or at least tries to be objective and describe objective truth.

    Make a science out of what?Pfhorrest

    So make a science out of the different subjective experiences and interpretations of people, not some philosophy or psychology I mean, but rather hard-boiled and concrete science, using the scientific method, just like for example physicists do.
  • Against Nihilism
    So you are trying to make a science out of it?
  • Against Nihilism
    Thoughts and feelings are interpretations. Experiences are not. The three blind men touching the elephant each feels like (perceives that) they're touching a different thing, and none of them are correct, but the objective truth of what they are actually touching still accounts for the senses they all experience. The hard part is coming up with a model that does account for all their different experiences.Pfhorrest

    I may be wrong, but isn't this a phenomenological approach?
  • Against Nihilism
    But the polemic nature of philosophical debates is usually either underrated or even totally ignored, as "philosophers" battle for domination, for their ideas to dominate. And of course at the end, no one wins, even if in fact someone manages to win, nihilism at its best.



    those bloody russians!
  • Against Nihilism
    Everyone seems to dislike nihilism, but also everyone is using it to annihilate what they don't like. It's like the traitor: everyone likes a good treason, well, where it suits them, but noone the traitor himself.
  • Discuss Philosophy with Professor Massimo Pigliucci
    Indeed, I found his one and only post. Was there any explanation as to why he quit?
  • Discuss Philosophy with Professor Massimo Pigliucci
    So what happened with Massimo? Did he ever show up?
  • Entropy can be reset to a previous or to an initial state
    Anyways, a good book on entropy is "Understanding Non-Equilibrium Thermodynamics" by Georgy Lebon, David Jou and Jose Casas-Vazquez.

    https://b-ok.cc/book/508021/aad3be

    From the preface:

    Besides being an introductory text, our objective is to present an overview, as general as possible, of the more recent developments in non-equilibrium thermodynamics, especially beyond the local equilibrium description. This is partially a terra incognita, an unknown land, because basic concepts as temperature, entropy, and the validity of the second law become problematic beyond the local equilibrium hypothesis. The answers provided up to now must be considered as partial and provisional, but are nevertheless worth to be examined.

    Right, so non-equilibrium thermodynamics is a terra incognita, a no man's land, well a no woman's land as well, to be politically correct, and not to be accused of sexism.

    From chapter 2:

    An important question is whether a precise definition can be attached to the notion of entropy when the system is driven far from equilibrium. In equilibrium thermodynamics, entropy is a well-defined function of state only in equilibrium states or during reversible processes. However, thanks to the local equilibrium hypothesis, entropy remains a valuable state function even in non-equilibrium situations. The problem of the definition of entropy and corollary of intensive variables as temperature will be raised as soon as the local equilibrium hypothesis is given up.

    By material body (or system) is meant a continuum medium of total mass m and volume V bounded by a surface Σ. Consider an arbitrary body, outside equilibrium, whose total entropy at time t is S. The rate of variation of this extensive quantity may be written as the sum of the rate of exchange with the exterior deS/dt and the rate of internal production, diS/dt:

    dS/dt = deS/dt + diS/dt (2.7)

    So, the total entropy of the system under consideration is the sum of its internal entropy production, plus the entropy that it exchanges with/due to its surroundings.

    Once entropy is defined, it is necessary to formulate the second law, i.e. to specify which kinds of behaviours are admissible in terms of the entropy behaviour. The classical formulation of the second law due to Clausius states that, in isolated systems, the possible processes are those in which the entropy of the final equilibrium state is higher or equal (but not lower) than the entropy of the initial equilibrium state. In the classical theory of irreversible processes, one introduces an even stronger restriction by requiring that the entropy of an isolated system must increase everywhere and at any time, i.e. dS/dt ≥ 0. In non-isolated systems, the second law will take the more general form

    diS/dt > 0 (for irreversible processes) (2.10a)
    diS/dt = 0 (for reversible processes or at equilibrium) (2.10b)

    It is important to realize that inequality (2.10a) does nor prevent that open or closed systems driven out of equilibrium may be characterized by dS/dt < 0; this occurs for processes for which deS/dt < 0 and larger in absolute value than diS/dt. Several examples are discussed in Chap. 6.

    Therefore, equations 2.10a and 2.10b, which, as the text says, is the 2nd law of thermodynamics in a more general form, refer to the internal entropy of the system: the internal entropy of a system will always increase or remain constant. If the system is isolated, which means that there is no exchange whatsoever with the surroundings, then the term deS/dt of equation 2.7 is zero and therefore, dS/dt = deS/dt + diS/dt = 0 + diS/dt = diS/dt >= 0. So, dS/dt = diS/dt >= 0. This is the form of the 2nd law of thermodynamics for isolated systems: its entropy equals its internal entropy, and remains constant (at equilibrium) or increases with time (when not in equilibrium).

    For systems, however, whether open or closed, that are nonetheless driven out of equilibrium, their total entropy may as well decrease with time, the 2nd law has no say in this, if the rate of external entropy exchange deS/dt is negative and larger in absolute value than the internal entropy production. In other words, the entropy of a non-isolated system can do whatever it pleases, when not in equilibrium.

    It is also important to note that all of the above can be said for systems where the local equilibrium hypothesis holds, so what does this hypothesis state? Again from the text:

    According to it, the local and instantaneous relations between thermodynamic quantities in a system out of equilibrium are the same as for a uniform system in equilibrium. To be more explicit, consider a system split mentally in a series of cells, which are sufficiently large for microscopic fluctuations to be negligible but sufficiently small so that equilibrium is realized to a good approximation in each individual cell. The size of such cells has been a subject of debate, on which a good analysis can be found in Kreuzer (1981) and Hafskjold and Kjelstrup (1995). The local equilibrium hypothesis states that at a given instant of time, equilibrium is achieved in each individual cell or, using the vocabulary of continuum physics, at each material point.

    And then they go on to give a more technical description of the hypothesis, as well a justification for doing so. The local equilibrium hypothesis is therefore a rather good approximation for describing, thermodynamically and in terms of entropy, a system which is out/known to be out of thermodynamic equilibrium, by assuming that at each instant of time the system behaves like it is in fact in equilibrium.

    But it just so happens that there are systems where this hypothesis has to be given up, due to the fact that fluctuations from equilibrium are just too great, as well as the time scales where anything takes place are too small for even definining a local entropy per unit time. By giving it up, the 2nd law of thermodynamics becomes highly problematic, up to the point that we are not even able to ascribe a temperature, or say that heat flows from hot to cold anymore, a fundamental tenet of this law. And so physicists have to devise new concepts, and to reformulate this 2nd law in terms of a more general "transport law":

    ...As a consequence, when working at short timescales or high frequencies, and correspondingly at short length scales or short wavelengths, the generalized transport laws must include memory and non-local effects. The analysis of these generalized transport laws is one of the main topics in modern non-equilibrium thermodynamics, statistical mechanics, and engineering. Such transport laws are generally not compatible with the local equilibrium hypothesis and a more general thermodynamic framework must be looked for. — chapter 7

    And all this happens in the laboratory, for well known chemical and biological processes that exhibit such out-of-equilibrium behavior. What is there is to say for the thermodynamics of the universe, where gravitational phenomena kick in, comprising of hypothetical dark matter and dark energy, of which we know absolutely nothing with regards to entropy? I mean, how on earth do you extrapolate ignorance that you have, that you know that you have, on a local level to a global one, to be able to produce certain and definite conclusions, beyond a reasonable doubt, about the fate or the state of the universe?? That's .. that's just mad! Why do that thing? Why put yourself in such a position? Oh, I guess it's just the need to mythologize, like the mythical beings that we are, to tell you the truth, I have the same urge. But I think it's better to be more practical and fight the 2nd law instead, this "law" of decay and decadence, rather to embrace it.

  • Entropy can be reset to a previous or to an initial state
    You're welcome, although what I posted had to do with entropy in its broadest sense, and not as it is used in laboratory experiments.
  • Against Nihilism
    I guess you missed the first thread in this series, the introduction page, which lays out the structure of the whole project. There are only four "against" essays just eliminating the broad kinds of views I don't support, and then seventeen more essays going into detail on what I do support out of the remaining possibilities.

    And as you'll see in those later essays, I am totally a pacifist, and equating objecting to certain philosophical views with violence is pretty absurd.
    Pfhorrest

    I think you misunderstood me, I wasn't saying that you are a violent person. I was referring to polemics.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polemic

    A polemic is contentious rhetoric that is intended to support a specific position by aggressive claims and undermining of the opposing position. Polemics are mostly seen in arguments about controversial topics. The practice of such argumentation is called polemics. A person who often writes polemics, or who speaks polemically, is called a polemicist. The word is derived from Ancient Greek πολεμικός (polemikos), meaning 'warlike, hostile',from πόλεμος (polemos), meaning 'war'.

    It seems that for an idea to thrive, a sort of war is needed, in order to make way for its growth, development and living, a "Lebensraum", like there is not enough "space" for all ideas to coexist peacefully with each other. This is neither good or bad.

    We must know that war is common to all and strife is justice, and that all things come into being through strife necessarily. — Heraclitus

    A law, of sorts.

    I am very aware of it, and it forms a pivotal part of this entire project. Treating facts and values analogously is not treating them as the same kind of thing, and in the very next essay (Against Cynicism) I argue explicitly against treating them as the same kind of thing.Pfhorrest

    Indeed. I read several of your essays, but it seems that I missed "Against Cynicism" where you say the above. So I take it back.
  • Entropy can be reset to a previous or to an initial state
    "Battling with my ideas" is your inline comments numbered 1-7, which is perfectly allright.

    But I fail to see how the rest of your comments is "battling with my ideas" and not "battling with me": "I love it when a dilettante searches the Internet to disprove a point. They come up with pearls of wisdom that they can't fathom, and they actually help disprove their criticism with their quotes", "Again: the dilettante does not know how to read carefully, because it's above his or her head. So to speak. But they have a very strong opinion, and they will stick by it tooth and nail".

    dante, dante, diledante

    dilettante kse-dilettante, I won't trouble myself with such bad attitudes ever again, I had my share. I'm done. After all, there are other fish in the sea, other fish to fry. :naughty:

    BA-Barracus-A-Team-Mister-T.jpg
  • Entropy can be reset to a previous or to an initial state
    I don't need to do much searching, as I studied physics. And sorry man, I don't have time for guys like you, I used to have, but now it seems that I have run out of time. So believe what you like, no one cares anyway, it makes no difference.
  • Against Nihilism
    Would you care to elaborate, and possibly relate this to the essay under discussion?Pfhorrest

    It's just seeing you write all these "against" essays, how many have you written so far, and how many more are there to write? You are like these warmongering "freedom fighters". Nihilism, on the other hand, is the most, if not the only, peaceful ideology, treating everything that has value of equal value, equal to zero, nihil, null. But of course it does not agree with warring human nature, and so it cannot be accepted, not on a wide scale at least.

    On another note, you seem to be completely unaware of the so called fact/value distinction, treating, by analogy, matters of fact exactly the same as matters of value. You do this with no justification whatsoever.
  • Entropy can be reset to a previous or to an initial state
    From wikipedia:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe#Controversies

    Max Planck wrote that the phrase "entropy of the universe" has no meaning because it admits of no accurate definition. More recently, Walter Grandy writes: "It is rather presumptuous to speak of the entropy of a universe about which we still understand so little, and we wonder how one might define thermodynamic entropy for a universe and its major constituents that have never been in equilibrium in their entire existence." According to Tisza: "If an isolated system is not in equilibrium, we cannot associate an entropy with it." Buchdahl writes of "the entirely unjustifiable assumption that the universe can be treated as a closed thermodynamic system". According to Gallavotti: "... there is no universally accepted notion of entropy for systems out of equilibrium, even when in a stationary state." Discussing the question of entropy for non-equilibrium states in general, Lieb and Yngvason express their opinion as follows: "Despite the fact that most physicists believe in such a nonequilibrium entropy, it has so far proved impossible to define it in a clearly satisfactory way." In Landsberg's opinion: "The third misconception is that thermodynamics, and in particular, the concept of entropy, can without further enquiry be applied to the whole universe. ... These questions have a certain fascination, but the answers are speculations, and lie beyond the scope of this book."

    A recent analysis of entropy states, "The entropy of a general gravitational field is still not known", and, "gravitational entropy is difficult to quantify". The analysis considers several possible assumptions that would be needed for estimates and suggests that the observable universe has more entropy than previously thought. This is because the analysis concludes that supermassive black holes are the largest contributor. Lee Smolin goes further: "It has long been known that gravity is important for keeping the universe out of thermal equilibrium. Gravitationally bound systems have negative specific heat—that is, the velocities of their components increase when energy is removed. ... Such a system does not evolve toward a homogeneous equilibrium state. Instead it becomes increasingly structured and heterogeneous as it fragments into subsystems."

    Also:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-equilibrium_thermodynamics

    Another fundamental and very important difference is the difficulty or impossibility, in general, in defining entropy at an instant of time in macroscopic terms for systems not in thermodynamic equilibrium; it can be done, to useful approximation, only in carefully chosen special cases, namely those that are throughout in local thermodynamic equilibrium.

    So, entropy cannot be defined for:

    a) systems that are not in this thing called "thermodynamic equilibrium", the vast majority of systems in nature are like that.
    b) the universe as a whole.
  • Against Nihilism
    Nihilism is the only hope humanity has for peace.
  • Entropy can be reset to a previous or to an initial state
    Entropy is a concept that is useful on a microscopic scale, but has trouble applying itself to the macroscopic one. As such, there is no such thing as "the entropy of the world, or of the universe", or even heat death of the universe owing to entropy. Entropy is even problematic in the microcosm, as studies show.
  • Is philosophy dead ? and if so can we revive it ?
    But anyway, these are matters for the bureaucrats to sort them out themselves, whether there are any connections or not, I mean.

    But what of, what about philosophy?

    At the end of Book VII of Plato's Republic, Socrates discusses with Glaucon the current state of philosophy, and what needs to be done in order to have people trained in it:

    -And as to truth, I said, is not a soul equally to be deemed halt and lame which hates voluntary falsehood and is extremely indignant at herself and others when they tell lies, but is patient of involuntary falsehood, and does not mind wallowing like a swinish beast in the mire of ignorance, and has no shame at being detected?
    -To be sure.
    -And, again, in respect of temperance, courage, magnificence, and every other virtue, should we not carefully distinguish between the true son and the bastard? For where there is no discernment of such qualities, states and individuals unconsciously err; and the state makes a ruler, and the individual a friend, of one who, being defective in some part of virtue, is in a figure lame or a bastard.
    -That is very true, he said.
    -All these things, then, will have to be carefully considered by us; and if only those whom we introduce to this vast system of education and training are sound in body and mind, justice herself will have nothing to say against us, and we shall be the saviours of the constitution and of the State; but, if our pupils are men of another stamp, the reverse will happen, and we shall pour a still greater flood of ridicule on philosophy than she has to endure at present.
    -That would not be creditable.
    -Certainly not, I said; and yet perhaps, in thus turning jest into earnest I am equally ridiculous.
    -In what respect?
    -I had forgotten, I said, that we were not serious, and spoke with too much excitement. For when I saw philosophy so undeservedly trampled under foot of men, I could not help feeling a sort of indignation at the authors of her disgrace: and my anger made me too vehement.
    -Indeed! I was listening, and did not think so.
    -But I, who am the speaker, felt that I was. And now let me remind you that, although in our former selection we chose old men, we must not do so in this. Solon was under a delusion when he said that a man when he grows old may learn many things–for he can no more learn much than he can run much; youth is the time for any extraordinary toil.
    — Plato

    Oh, Socrates, you were a jokester, among many other things. The old will learn to run, and the young will toil. Cause it's true that you can't teach an old dog new tricks.

  • Is philosophy dead ? and if so can we revive it ?
    Yeah, well, too much bureaucracy and paperwork involved in the process I guess, thus making philosophy a ... bureaucratic enterprise! Ah those beerocrats! :beer: One way to see where philosophy took a wrong turn, I think.
  • Is philosophy dead ? and if so can we revive it ?


    When Hawking says:

    What is the relation between Godel’s theorem and whether we can formulate the theory of the universe in terms of a finite number of principles? One connection is obvious. According to the positivist philosophy of science, a physical theory is a mathematical model. So if there are mathematical results that can not be proved, there are physical problems that can not be predicted. — Hawking

    ... he makes the error of applying Godel's theorem to physics and the real world. There is no connection, let alone an obvious one. If one thing is obvious, this is Hawking's misinterpretation of the theorem.

    EDIT: Ah yes, almost forgot. If in his 2002 lecture it was obvious for Hawking that Godel's theorem proved that scientific knowledge will never be complete, why then in 2010 he said that "the scientific account is complete"? Most probably another "obvious"! :D I am fed up hearing about obvious connections and conclusions. :worry:
  • Is philosophy dead ? and if so can we revive it ?
    Mathematics has no direct empirical take on the world. Its models are always abstract Platonic worlds. It is through its influence on empirical disciplines (such as science) that it affects our real-world view. There are obviously other empirical disciplines such as history with its historical method. However, in my impression, history does not use the language nor the invariants of mathematics.alcontali

    There is no proof in empirical disciplines, simply because proof about the physical universe is impossible. The regulatory framework in use in science with which they attempt to maintain correspondence between their logic sentences and the physical universe is obviously far from perfect. Falsificationism is merely a best-effort endeavour.alcontali

    And because of this distinction between the formal/mathematical/non-empirical/logical world and the real world which is nothing like the other, we should be really suspicious of attempts made to reconcile the two.

    Tarski's theorem is good for maths, brilliant even, but when it tries to apply itself to the real world, then it is an abomination.

    Any link to that?alcontali

    I've given the link in my post.
  • Is philosophy dead ? and if so can we revive it ?
    The pursuit of wisdom. Wisdom, in turn, does not merely mean some set of correct statements, but rather is the ability to discern the true from the false, the good from the bad; or at least the more true from the less true, the better from the worse; the ability, in short, to discern superior answers from inferior answers to any given question.Pfhorrest

    Yeah, I think Aristotle was along the same lines, if I remember correctly. Socrates also. After all, if you don't praise your own house, it will fall down on you, like they say. But saying "to any given question", this opens philosophers up, it makes them vulnerable to ridicule. And there you have Aristophanes in his "Clouds", having Socrates wondering about a flea's long jump.

    To that end, philosophy must investigate questions about what our questions even mean, investigating questions about language; what criteria we use to judge the merits of a proposed answer, investigating questions about being and purpose, the objects of reality and morality respectively; what methods we use to apply those criteria, investigating questions about knowledge and justice; what faculties we need to enact those methods, investigating questions about the mind and the will; who is to exercise those faculties, investigating questions about academics and politics; and why any of it matters at all.Pfhorrest

    For sure, all these are part of our public and private investigations. But what of philosophy? What is its agenda? What does philosophy want?

    The tools of philosophy can be used against that end, but I prefer to call that "phobosophy" instead.Pfhorrest

    One could also use the term foolosophy.
  • Is philosophy dead ? and if so can we revive it ?
    Well, rather: extrapolate them to how we perceive the real world. Stephen Hawking lectured the following on the subject:alcontali

    How we perceive scientifically the real world. I mean, if the only means of perception we have is science, but is it? This is scientism, which may be right of course.

    And after all, in both Tarksi and Godel, both concepts of proof and truth are extremely well defined. In the case of the real world however, even from a scientific outlook, they are completely vague: you can conjure them as you see fit. What is truth? What is proof? (well, not the TPF user)

    Stephen Hawking on Gödel and the End of Physicsalcontali

    Yeah, I remember reading it some years back. But the next sentence in his lecture, I think is important: "Without it, we would stagnate".

    And also: "Godel’s theorem ensured there would always be a job for mathematicians. I think M theory will do the same for physicists".

    So, in the above, Hawking draws the analogy between Godel's theorem and M theory, believing that M theory is to the real/physical world what Godel's theorem is to the mathematical equivalent. And therefore we will ad infinitum be looking for answers, which is a good thing, because otherwise we would stagnate. Stagnation, that comes from complete knowledge of how stuff works, is for Hawking the worst that can happen to us. And therefore he is relieved.

    This lecture was given in 2002. But then in 2010, after the publication of his book, "The Grand Design", he has a change of heart.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/09/11/stephen.hawking.interview/index.html

    "Science is increasingly answering questions that used to be the province of religion," Hawking replied. "The scientific account is complete. Theology is unnecessary."

    Wow! "The scientific account is complete"!

    Putting theological statements aside (or maybe not), he now believes that M-theory gives a complete description of reality! So I couldn't help it back then and send him an e-mail, well actually not to him because the probabilities of an answer would be next to zero, but to his co-author Leonard Mlodinow, and referring to the 2002 lecture, I asked him what made him change his mind, but I didn't get an answer, duh. :) So I am still curious.
  • Is philosophy dead ? and if so can we revive it ?
    Given Tarski's undefinability of truth, any system has no other choice but to receive its fundamental truths from a higher meta-system.alcontali

    But Tarski's and Godel's theorems work within a very strict - formal - mathematical framework. Do you think we can extrapolate them to the real world?
  • Is philosophy dead ? and if so can we revive it ?
    And your point is ...?180 Proof

    My point is that there is something wrong here, something fishy going on. :brow:
  • Is philosophy dead ? and if so can we revive it ?
    I think it's a sustained self-examination (Socrates) which exposes to us that we, in fact, do not know or understand what we think - take for granted - we know or understand, and thereby helps us to align our expectations (i.e. judgments) with whatever is the case.180 Proof

    But this is not how it is used nowadays, is it? Taking a course on philosophy of X, to use alcontali's syntax, does not teach you your ignorance of X. Well, maybe at the beginning of the course, but then when you graduate, you say, "ah now I know!". So I think it has the opposite result.

    Like when we cannot be 'ignorant of our ignorance' or the eye cannot not see itself or there are no more 'unknown unknowns' ... but that's waiting on a train - apotheosis - that'll never come. No, Pussy, philosophy is an 'infinite task', or as Pierre Hadot says "a spiritual exercise" ...180 Proof

    Again, one can hardly say that contemporary philosophy professors are "spiritual teachers".
  • Is philosophy dead ? and if so can we revive it ?
    I think philosophy is much like martial arts for the mind: as the practice of martial arts both develops the body from the inside and prepares one to protect their body from attacks from the outside, both from crude brutes but also from more sophisticated attackers who would twist the methods of martial arts toward offense rather than defense, so too philosophy develops the mind and will from the inside, and also prepares one to protect their mind and will from attacks from the outside, both from crude ignorance and inconsideration but also from more sophisticated attackers who would twist the methods of philosophy against its purpose.

    In a perfect world, the latter uses of either martial arts or philosophy would be unnecessary, as such attacks would not be made to begin with, but in the actual world it is unfortunately useful to be thus prepared; and even in a perfect world, with no external attackers, martial arts and philosophy are both still useful for their internal development and exercise of the body, mind, and will.
    Pfhorrest

    What is philosophy's purpose?

    So you are saying that philosophy offers some kind of protection? Do you think it is also used for offensive purposes? Or, using your analogy, is it like karate, as it was taught by Mr Miyagi at least, "only for defence"? :)

    But anyway, if what you say is so, then there is a lot of psychology involved in philosophy, and whatever "knowledge" one receives from it, it is a different kind of knowledge - if any, if we can call this knowledge - than the one used in epistemology. Just as one that knows how to fight, or play the piano, we wouldn't call this knowledge per se. Also, I am not sure who the enemy really is.
  • Is philosophy dead ? and if so can we revive it ?
    Only when death (i.e. human Mortality) becomes (technologically) optional will (the need for) religion die. Likewise, when ignorance (of ignorance, especially) is no longer an inescapable, or inexhaustable, aspect of human Existence will philosophy be dead and buried.180 Proof

    So do you think that philosophy has something to do with knowledge, and/or ignorance? And that when we stop being ignorant, then philosophy will die as a result? Maybe because it served its use and is no longer needed?
  • Is philosophy dead ? and if so can we revive it ?
    Yeah, general abstract nonsense. On the one side, I really like its "nonsensical" touch and feel, but on the other side, I haven't been able to find anything surprising to do with it. So, I will have to leave it open ...alcontali

    It is being used in quantum mechanics, hoping one day to replace physics!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_quantum_mechanics

    With category theory, physics becomes time-less and space-less. So it is very suitable for merging relativity theory with quantum mechanics, since the main problem there is that these two theories have a completely different notion of time.
  • Is philosophy dead ? and if so can we revive it ?
    Great point. Everyone likes to make fun of philosophers!fishfry

    Yeah, it's like they have it in them to be ridiculed, there's something about them. Just like our teachers at school that we used to hang them notes on their back, saying "I'm an idiot", or "hit me". :lol:
  • Is philosophy dead ? and if so can we revive it ?
    I have a solution ot revive it.Francesca

    Please do tell! :smile:
  • Is philosophy dead ? and if so can we revive it ?
    Pure reason does not mean "free from otherwise unjustifiable premises". It means "free from sensory input".alcontali

    What do you mean? Free from empirical data? Free from experience? But then, from where does pure reason get its input? Where does it come from?

    Furthermore, religious law is a formal system, just like any theory. For example, Islamic law has a largely mechanical epistemology, very much like mathematics, and when written in formal language, Islamic law is machine verifiable, just like all sound knowledge.alcontali

    Ah, I remember Godel saying that he was fond of Islam, finding it a consistent idea of religion and open-minded. This is what he was talking about, right?

    Furthermore, all attacks on religion would also apply to any subdiscipline in mathematics, including logic itself. The reason why atheists pick religion as a target, is simply because it looks like an easier target than mathematics. This wrong perception is caused by Christianity, because, unlike Orthodox Rabbinic Judaism and Islam, Christianity is not and has never been a formal system.alcontali

    So you are saying that Islam is being caught in the crossfire, because of christianity?
  • Is philosophy dead ? and if so can we revive it ?
    Maybe what you have in mind is Intuition versus Reasoning. Philosophy has always been a logical rational approach to the world. But, it cannot abandon the Intuition that sparks a chain of reasoning. Philosophy without Logic or Reasoning would be Faith and Religion. But to depend on logic alone, is the mistake of Logical Positivism. Man cannot live by logic alone.Gnomon

    Well, it's semantics, like philosophers nowadays say. Of course, reasoning and intuition are important to our way of thinking. But is that philosophy? Or just reasoned and intuited thinking, in other words, a tautology? Why does philosophy have to approach the world logically and rationally, and not illogically and irrationally, also?

    The thought that philosophy is dead and has been dead for a long time now, or maybe even that it never was alive to begin with, has come to me only recently, and I would like to explore it. So I am prepared to take a rather extreme position, just for the hell of it, or out of plain curiosity that needs satisfaction, see what happens. They say that curiosity killed the cat, but they also say that satisfaction brought her back! :)

    So I am gonna go ahead and say that philosophy died along with the ancient world, maybe as way back as the time of Aristotle. And since then, we haven't been philosophizing, but rather putting nails on her coffin. And that philosophers, especially of the modern day, are all phonies, like Holden in The Catcher in the Rye would say.
  • Abortion and premature state of life
    If you did read my text then you'd understand that life within different stages is still life. According to your logic it would be equally right to kill a newborn child as to an abortion state fetus as they both haven't really developed into full consciousness.EpicTyrant

    And in fact what you say, has been proposed, they call it "After-birth abortion".

    https://jme.bmj.com/content/39/5/261

    Abstract

    Abortion is largely accepted even for reasons that do not have anything to do with the fetus' health. By showing that (1) both fetuses and newborns do not have the same moral status as actual persons, (2) the fact that both are potential persons is morally irrelevant and (3) adoption is not always in the best interest of actual people, the authors argue that what we call ‘after-birth abortion’ (killing a newborn) should be permissible in all the cases where abortion is, including cases where the newborn is not disabled.
  • Is philosophy dead ? and if so can we revive it ?


    This is not what I am thinking. It is difficult to describe.. Not "things" that you can understand, in the normal sense of understanding. Let's say irrational stuff, pro-logic. In this sense, it is logic that killed philosophy.
  • Is philosophy dead ? and if so can we revive it ?
    Hawking's assertion that "philosophy is dead," was self-refuting. Why? Because the statement "philosophy is dead" is itself a philosophical statement.LD Saunders

    But of course, if there are no philosophical statements, then it is not self-refuting, and Hawking could be right. But I doubt that Hawking knew himself what he was talking about.
  • Is philosophy dead ? and if so can we revive it ?
    Celebrity physicists bashing philosophy is as old as Feynman if not older.fishfry

    It is not only from celebrity physicists that philosophy gets a bashing. Philosophers themselves also appear very critical of philosophy, which seems to be self-contradictory, but is it really?

    For example, Heidegger, as it says here in this wikipedia article about the death of god:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_is_dead#Explanation

    Martin Heidegger understood this aspect of Nietzsche's philosophy* by looking at it as the death of metaphysics. In his view, Nietzsche's words can only be understood as referring not to a particular theological or anthropological view but rather to the end of philosophy itself. Philosophy has, in Heidegger's words, reached its maximum potential as metaphysics and Nietzsche's words warn of its demise and the end of any metaphysical worldview. If metaphysics is dead, Heidegger warns, that is because from its inception that was its fate.

    *god is dead