This misrepresents my post on your thread:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/599793

Please edit accordingly.

I can see that your poetry is heart-felt and sincere. It's romantic, which is fine. It is also philosophical, as the OP specifies. But it is not good poetry. — T Clark

What is wrong with it ? Constructive criticism, any ?

***

I'd be Interested to hear what people make of this one, if anything.
I haven't read it yet...long-length poems...not usually to my liking.
But I'm open to persuasion...and sometimes there are surprises...

The article gives background - why and how he wrote it - with extract:

A poem about the pandemic. 'Pandemonium'- 'a mock epic' - by Armando Iannucci:

It’s a poem in the style of those daunting but rather wonderful depictions of love and loss and the battle between good and evil: The Iliad, The Aeneid, The Divine Comedy and Paradise Lost.
The last of those works I spent three years studying for a PhD that I never quite managed to complete. There’s an unconscious connection: my title Pandemonium was a word invented by Milton and first used in Paradise Lost to describe the home of Satan and his fellow fallen angels. Maybe writing Pandemonium is my closure?...

Not long into lockdown, trying to understand my shock and bewilderment at what was going on, I started tapping out what became the poem Pandemonium. It began in a rush, 10 lines at a time, and then would stop. Maybe a month or so would go by and then more would come. It seemed instinctive to compare these people who had power of life and death over us to the immortal gods of Greek myth and religious verse, and see how they matched up. Maybe, too, poetry – with its play on ambiguity and double meaning, the fact that it need not be literal, that it thrives on evoking several interpretations at once – was the only form that, for me, helped make sense of the many contradictions the past 18 months have forced upon us.
— Guardian: Iannucci's epic covid poem

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/sep/25/armando-iannuccis-epic-covid-poem-its-my-emotional-response-to-the-past-18-months

I can always delete them ... — 180 Proof

I hear what you mean.
God awful :monkey:

It's not so much that I don't wish to respond to your posts but some of it seems more about me as a person, which goes beyond philosophy — Jack Cummins

The questions I raised are about your thoughts.
Some analyse what you write as an expression of your self and beliefs.
Tell me, how does this 'go beyond philosophy'?

I am sure that I have many weaknesses and some may think that I am shallow in thinking, although I am not sure that this can be established on the basis of forum discussion — Jack Cummins

Nobody is trying to establish anything.
My point and questions related to this 'personal' exchange, initiated by you :

The main reason why I chose not to do a degree in psychology was because I did 'A' level psychology and felt that experimental psychology was so shallow.
— Jack Cummins

You feel and judge from a single experience. I am reminded of your swift assessment of a short story.
Dismissing it - from its title alone. In that case, fairly unimportant consequences.
Consider how your habits of thinking/decision-making might appear 'shallow' to others ?
What are the implications in your 'life experiment' ?

Experimental psychology.

Isn't that how Jung came to his conclusions. The ones you admire so much ? — Amity

A more careful response to this and other specific questions would be appreciated.

***

I hope that I don't drive you to need whiskey on account of using the expression, 'I believe'. — Jack Cummins

OK. 'I do believe' this is an attempt at humour. I do believe... * slurps * :party:

It is good to be aware of the personal aspects of belief, with a mixture of honesty and ability to think and evaluate ideas. — Jack Cummins

Indeed. And words are easy. It's all in the action, baby.
Elvis Presley - A Little Less Conversation (Album Master)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWVMXLSS1cA

Take care :flower:

Their versions lack soul, I feel, because they are not well-executed as performances or arrangements. Listen, compare both to the original and judge for yourself (I can't bear to post the links.) — 180 Proof

Awww, honey :sad:
That bad, huh ?

Okay, I won't force the issue — Jack Cummins

:roll:
It isn't about you 'forcing' an issue.
It's about what you and others take from the discussion.
Considering points, carefully.
A thoughtful weighing-up.

Do I take it that you will not be responding to my last two posts ?

...if you don't know already, both John and Paul, separately on solo albums, cover "Bring It On Home To Me" but neither manages (given their own remarkable talents – with some real effort) not remotely to do justice to the original. — 180 Proof

I didn't know that but I believe you - even better if when I can listen to their versions.
Are you on the case already :wink:
And what do you think is/are the missing ingredient(s) ? Soul ?

:cool:
:fire: :sparkle:

Merci beaucoup pour tout. Grazie mille. Thank you. All this is wonderful :smile:

The main reason why I chose not to do a degree in psychology was because I did 'A' level psychology and felt that experimental psychology was so shallow. — Jack Cummins

You feel and judge from a single experience. I am reminded of your swift assessment of a short story.
Dismissing it - from its title alone. In that case, fairly unimportant consequences.
Consider how your habits of thinking/decision-making might appear 'shallow' to others ?
What are the implications in your 'life experiment' ?

Experimental psychology.

Isn't that how Jung came to his conclusions. The ones you admire so much ?

Jung recorded the response of his patients in word-association technique. He also, used to observe the time taken to answer. He recorded whether certain type of words lead to particular behavior or even perspiration. Jung believed that by word- association technique, he was exploring unconscious as Freud did, using free association and dream analysis.

Based on his experimentation, particularly word-association, Jung developed the concept of unconscious. His concept of unconscious, is fairly different from what Freud has proposed. — What is Analytical Psychology of Carl Jung ?

Molto interessante :cool:

I think that what it amounts to is the fact that it may not be possible to go beyond bias completely at all. — Jack Cummins

We first have to know the different kinds of bias. Here's a list of 10 cognitive biases:
https://www.verywellmind.com/cognitive-biases-distort-thinking-2794763

I think that it is probably related to our basic philosophy premises and experience of how we have experienced life. — Jack Cummins

It's us being human...

While people like to believe that they are rational and logical, the fact is that people are continually under the influence of cognitive biases. These biases distort thinking, influence beliefs, and sway the decisions and judgments that people make each and every day.

Sometimes these biases are fairly obvious, and you might even find that you recognize these tendencies in yourself or others. In other cases, these biases are so subtle that they are almost impossible to notice. — Cognitive biases distort thinking

Are we so busy looking for the motes in the eyes of others that we fail to notice our own ?
Despite no longer holding a Christian faith - the Bible still holds wisdom in its pages:

MATTHEW 7:3 KJV "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

***
Look at this:

For someone who experiences synchronicity, the idea makes sense whereas I am sure that for many, especially those who come from a scientific materialist perspective, I am sure that the idea probably appears as rather absurd. — Jack Cummins

N.B. The following is not meant as an attack on your person:
Have you noticed the frequency of certainty phrases in your writing, even as you pose questions ?
At one point, the most common was 'I do believe...' Repeated ad nauseam.
If I had a whisky every time I heard it, I would have been in an alcoholic coma
Here in a single paragraph: 'I am sure...' - even if you throw in a 'probably' to qualify.
Perhaps to take the hard edge off...a conviction you hold almost sacred...?

A pattern is observed.

I think your stubborn attempts at 'deflating the natural sciences' (more than fallibilsts-pragmatists do) is both gratuitous and unwarranted, Jack. — 180 Proof

I suggest that those from a 'scientific materialist perspective' or those who undertake research have more knowledge of the cognitive biases and will acknowledge such in reports. It is part of their training and education.

The cognitive biases above are common, but this is only a sampling of the many biases that can affect your thinking. These biases collectively influence much of our thoughts and ultimately, decision making.

Many of these biases are inevitable. We simply don't have the time to evaluate every thought in every decision for the presence of any bias. Understanding these biases is very helpful in learning how they can lead us to poor decisions in life. — Cognitive biases distort thinking

Shared aspects of experience are fine...up to a point.
It depends on what, with whom and why they are important. How do you assess ?

Synchronicity theory

The theory largely relies on metaphysics and the belief of a universal unconscious. It is for this reason that synchronicity seems similar to the Law of Attraction and the principle of vibration as their relationship shall be discussed later. Carl Jung believed synchronicity could explain and describe the universal dynamic that governed all human experience the social, spiritual, emotional, and psychological. — Synchronicity meaning and examples: Reality or Bias

So, how biased is this article ?
If it is about belief as in religion, then some will hold it as a matter of faith
Others will not. Some will reserve judgement or not see it as terribly important.

We can ask the question: We sometimes have these feelings. What, if any, are the implications ?
What is at stake? Psychological comfort ?

You can translate the words, but you cannot translate the music of the words. And that is precisely why I was reluctant to put Les Passantes through the process. I like it a bit too much. — Olivier5

Je comprends.
Here's a less distracting video. All the better to listen to the music...
La musique des mots.

Georges Brassens - Les passantes [Paroles]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iOK35td_6g

:sparkle:

Je veux dédier
I want to dedicate...

Sam Cooke You send me Original
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrwfB4aAZZc

No no no, English is a great language. — Olivier5

I think you have a better grasp of it than whot I do :wink:

Edit: I don't know why I winked. I'm deadly serious :100:

Good resource. I've tried to edit that a bit — Olivier5

Your version is fantastico - and it looks like the site encourages proof reading and welcomes changes !!
I think the French surpasses all and sounds better :100:
English - tchah, pah, pooh, merde :naughty:

Je veux dédier ce poème
À toutes les femmes qu'on aime
Pendant quelques instants secrets
À celles qu'on connaît à peine
Qu'un destin différent entraîne
Et qu'on ne retrouve jamais

I'll dedicate this poem
To all of those women
We love for secret moments,
To those we just half-see,
That a different fate leads
And that we never see again.

Olivier:
I dedicate this poem
To all of those women
We love for a secret moment
To those we just half-see
Whom a different fate leads away
And we never see them again

***

To her we see appear,
One second, at her pane,
And who vanishes swiftly
Yet whose slender outline
Is so slim and so fine
That glowing we remain.

Olivier:
To her we see appear
One second at her window
And who vanishes swiftly
Yet whose slender outline
Was so slim and so fine
That our heart is left blooming

***

To the fellow-traveller,
Whose eyes, charming landscape,
Make us feel the way shorter ,
Whom we alone, maybe, understand
But whom we let get off the train
Having not even brushed her hand.

Olivier:
To the fellow-traveller
Whose eyes, a charming landscape
Make us feel the way shorter,
Whom we alone, maybe, understand
But who we let get off the train
Without even brushing her hand

***

To the slim and supple waltzer
that looked to you sad and fretful
During some carnival night,
Who wished to remain unknown
And who never showed up again
To whirl in one more ball.

Olivier:
To the slim and supple waltzer
Who seemed sad and fretful
During some carnival night
Who wished to remain masked
And who never showed up again
To whirl in another ball

***

To those already engaged
And that, living drab days
Near too different a creature,
Let you, unuseful folly,
Perceive the melancholy
Of a despairing future.

Olivier:
To those already taken
And who, living drab days
Near too different a person
Have let you -- useless folly --
Perceive the melancholy
Of their despairing future

***

To all those Shy lovers
That remained so quiet
And still mourn you a lot,
To those who went away
From you, sad and lonely
Enduring a stupid pride.

Olivier:
To those shy lovers
Who remained silent
And yet are still mourning you
To those who went away
From you sad and lonely
Victim of your stupid pride

***

Dear half-seen images,
Unrealized short-lived hopes,
you'll be forgotten tomorrow
If ever happiness happens.
It is uncommon to memorise
all the laps on one's ways.

Olivier:
Dear images barely sighted
Short-lived, arrested hopes
You'll be forgotten tomorrow
If happiness ever comes
One rarely remembers
All the episodes along the way

***

Yet, if you've missed your life,
You muse about, longingly,
Those half-seen happy moments,
Those kisses you daredn't accept
Those eyes you've never Seen again.

Olivier:
Yet, if one has missed one's life,
One muses about, longingly,
Towards those half-sighted joys
Those kisses one didn't dare take
Those eyes never seen again

***

So then, in bleak and weary nights,
As one peoples one's solitude
With the ghosts of memories
One sobs over the absent lips
Of all those Passers-by
That one could not hold back.

Olivier:
So then, in bleak and weary nights
As one peoples one's solitude
With the ghosts of memories
One sobs over the absent lips
Of all those passers-by
One failed to hold on to

Legend has it that Brassens discovered the poem by buying Pol's used poetry book on a flea market, by chance. Pol was totally unknown. — Olivier5

Ooooh la la :cool:

Serendipity doo da day :fire:

Michael Jackson- Jackson 5 shoo-be-doo-be-doo-da-day.mp4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3G-80SKhTg

Sorry :yikes:
From the sublime to the...

Look who's the translator now! — Olivier5

Oui. C'est https://lyricstranslate.com/en/les-passantes-passers.html :smile:

Sorry, can't translate this, it'd be too hard — Olivier5

Yes. Sometimes words fail. Beautiful poetic images and song capturing more than just les passantes.

The lyrics are about all the women whom one man met for a few fleeting moments throughout his life, and dared not approach, and how he remembers them later. It's sounds awful, said like this... — Olivier5

Yes - not hard to translate the poem but the feelings and interpretation difficult. But not impossible.
The essence of the video...an expression of feminist experience.
Men included. And all ages. The mix of emotions choreographed...exceptional work of art.

https://lyricstranslate.com/en/les-passantes-passers.html

Final verse:

Alors, aux soirs de lassitude
Tout en peuplant sa solitude
Des fantômes du souvenir
On pleure les lèvres absentes
De toutes ces belles passantes
Que l’on n’a pas su retenir

So then, in bleak and weary nights,
As one peoples one's solitude
With the ghosts of memories
One sobs over the absent lips
Of all those Passers-by
That one could not hold back.


The regrets of a life. And what a life.

As an artillery captain, he fought in the First World War, and later worked at the Houve mines in Strasbourg in 1919...

When he retired in 1959, he was finally able to pursue his passions: poetry, books and butterflies...

When Georges Brassens discovered this poem, he asked Antoine Pol for permission to set it to music, which the latter granted. Brassens, wanting to meet him, arranged for a meeting to take place after a month, but Pol died away a week before he could meet him. One of Brassens' greatest regrets was never to have met him.
— Wiki - Antoine Pol

It's never too late until it is....

The Most Relaxing Classical Music in the Universe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhAWSK_4Re8

Track list where you can click on the blue time links (in youtube 'show more')

0:02 Pachelbel - Canon in D Major
5:54 Mozart - Eine Kleine Nachtmusik (Andante)
11:30 Beethoven - Moonlight Sonata (Adagio Sostenuto)
16:45 Tchaikovsky - String Quartet #1 (Andante cantabile)
23:27 Bach - Goldberg Variations (Aria)
26:33 Janacek - Idyll for Strings
29:52 Debussy - La Fille aux cheveux de lin
32:11 Albinoni - Adagio in G Minor
41:06 Debussy - Clair de Lune
46:21 Debussy - Prelude to the afternoon of a faun
56:59 Beethoven - Fur Elise
59:56 - Wiliams - Fantasia on Greensleeves
1:04:28 Bach/Gounod - Ave Maria
1:09:00 Chopin - Concerto in E Minor (Larghetto)
1:21:35 Bach - "Air" from Suite for Orchestra in D Major
1:26:55 Handel - Largo from Xerxes
1:31:13 Debussy - Arabesque in A Major
1:35:05 Barber - Adagio for Strings
1:44:10 Vivaldi - "Spring" From the four seasons (Largo)
1:46:48 Liszt - Liebestraum in A Flat Major
1:51:15 Goddard - Berceuse from Jocelyn
1:55:50 Bach - Prelude in C Major
1:58:03 Grieg - Concerto in A Minor (Adagio)
2:04:11 Mozart - Piano Concerto No.21 (Andante) — The Most Relaxing Classical Music in the Universe

Again, thanks to @tim wood for link:

Hilary Hahn: Rautavaara's "Deux Sérénades" in a nutshell (4:49)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICGFmN85J50

Here, Hilary talks about the interpretation as a 'blueprint' which is as close to the composer's 'emotional intention' as possible. To capture the initial feeling. She contrasts a potential dramatic, powerful and operatic way but recognises that this is not really how the composer 'moved through the world' and so
she chooses to express the openness and embracing of love...
Connecting with the composer and the audience.

It is moving to hear of the circumstances which led to this.
The composer had passed away before completion and premier.
According to Hilary, he had a warmth and spirituality - also haunted by its dark side in life and death; darkness and light.

Her short discussion is informative but also a temptation...
'Einojuhani Rautavaara's "Deux Sérénades," is one of three pieces on her album “Paris,” recorded with Mikko Franck and the Orchestre Philharmonique de Radio France. “Paris” is out now.

Happy listening :sparkle:

However, I tend to think that it [music] stems from the mind.
— Amity
I inserted "music" into your quote. Do you suppose that composer's compositions are purely invented? I do not. Details, as allowed by the composition itself. But music qua, no. Maybe better if I call it the possibility of music as a particular piece. — tim wood

OK. To backtrack:

I agree that the origin of any inspiration can be seen as mysterious - some say a gift from God.
However, I tend to think that it stems from the mind.
The origin of a human creation - or product of the creative process - starts with imagination.
A coalescing of ideas, senses - a way of seeing the potential to expand existing thoughts/dreams. — Amity

My 'it' referred to 'imagination' as the origin, not to the 'music' as you suggest 'arguably wrested from a void or primordial reality by the composers'.
So, What did you mean by that and How does any 'wresting' happen ?

I do not think we have anything worth disagreeing about, just rather two different approaches. — tim wood

Well, there will always be different ways of thinking about an issue in the philosophy of music.
However, I am no expert and feelings of wonder evaporate when looking at the SEP article:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/music/

You ask interesting questions:

Do you suppose that composer's compositions are purely invented? I do not. Details, as allowed by the composition itself. But music qua, no. Maybe better if I call it the possibility of music as a particular piece. — tim wood

Composer's compositions.
How is anything composed ?
Not pure invention - but inventiveness is part of it. Innovations. New ideas.
Otherwise music/poetry/art and philosophy would stay still. Dead.

Interesting to compare definitions of 'composition' and 'improvisation'.

... Richard Barrett goes on to say that his definition of improvisation as one way of composing, makes it clear that the two ways of creating music are in no way in opposition. Thus, composition can mean ”making music” and improvisation is a method for making music, in a spontaneous, real-time way.

Then, if ”composition” means ”music-making” and ”improvisation” means ”spontaneous music-making”, what is a useful word for the other main method of composition: ”Planning and notating how to make music in advance and have it executed at another point in time (possibly by musicians)”?

”Predetermined musical structuring or material” feels like a useful definition for me.

This material, which is usually notated in some way, is normally more or less similar from performance to performance, whereas free improvisations can, maybe even should, be very different.

I agree with Barrett’s definition, but there are some fundamental differences between what we normally associate with composition (predetermined structuring or material) and improvisation:

Improvisation is an ongoing dialogue, and is usually based on communication from the very moment it starts, with other improvisers and the audience. Composing music on paper is usually a solitary process until just before it is performed. There may be communication with the players and the composer in advance, and also when rehearsing the music, but the main form of communication is verbal or literary. In improvisation one communicates via musical sounds.
— Natural Patterns - Composition and Improvisation

My knowledge and experience of composition is scant. Really not up to the task...
Hopefully, others will join in this discussion.
There is so much more to learn:

No one, composer or improviser, has ever created music out of nothing, without reference to what has gone before. Both improviser and composer build up a store of musical experience before creating something new, and that ‘something new’ is both related to and in some way different from what has gone before. Beethoven drew on the tradition handed down to him, arguably neither more nor less than did jazz saxophonist John Coltrane or Indian sitarist Pandit Ravi Shankar. — Open Learn: Composition and improvisation in cross-cultural perspective

https://www.open.edu/openlearn/ocw/mod/oucontent/view.php?id=1840&printable=1

The wild ride also goes for the audience, especially if the performer is famous and the concert is highly anticipated. I often think that composing and performing are mostly technical with touches of creativity here and there but sometimes I am shocked into intense lasting pleasure (superior to even the best sex) by transcendent artistry. It is this that I seek as a listener. — magritte

I've just listened to and watched an incredible performance, thanks to @tim wood for link in OP. *
This concert must have been SO 'highly anticipated' - given the timing and circumstances.
A lessening of covid restrictions which had affected/closed many art venues/gatherings in 2020.
Now, in 2021 - precautions still being taken with mask wearing and some social distancing.

The performer not only famous but with an attractive, sincere and beguiling personality.
I didn't know of her until this thread but have read more:

On playing Bach
In 1999 Hahn said that she played Bach more than any other composer and had played solo Bach pieces every day since she was eight.[8]

Bach is, for me, the touchstone that keeps my playing honest. Keeping the intonation pure in double stops, bringing out the various voices where the phrasing requires it, crossing the strings so that there are not inadvertent accents, presenting the structure in such a way that it's clear to the listener without being pedantic – one can't fake things in Bach, and if one gets all of them to work, the music sings in the most wonderful way.

— Hilary Hahn, Saint Paul Sunday[48] — Wiki: Hilary Hahn

--------

*
Hilary Hahn /Paavo Järvi /GEPO - Sibelius: Violin Concerto in D minor, Op. 47 (2021)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O65YBjweUPo&t=741s
Jean Sibelius (1865-1957) - Violin Concerto in D minor, Op. 47 (1905)
1. Allegro moderato (00:29)
2. Adagio di molto (18:10)
3. Allegro, ma non tanto (26:24)
Hilary Hahn, violin
Paavo Järvi, conductor
George Enescu Philharmonic Orchestra

Today audiences listen to recordings with veneration and expect the performance to be true to the note, at the expense of the spontaneity and innovations of the presentation.
— magritte

That's why it is highly desirable for people to -- at least occasionally -- attend live performances. — Bitter Crank

Yes. But as you say, there are now more obstacles than ever. It's not easy.

Personally, I can't afford to regularly attend professional orchestra performances at Orchestra Hall, though when I do attend, it's worth the cost. — Bitter Crank

For me, right now, it would take something extraordinary to make it worthwhile.
I can hardly remember attending free/low cost smaller concerts when visiting London...such as:
https://www.stmartin-in-the-fields.org/whatson-event/concerts-by-candlelight/
Concerts cancelled in 2020 now rescheduled

With over 50 concerts to choose from in the magnificent surroundings and acoustic of St Martin’s, there is no better time to rediscover the power and passion that only live performance offers. — Concerts by Candlelight at St. Martin's

--------

Having watched Hilary's performance and the effect not only on the audience but the members of the orchestra - there is a rapture which can't be captured simply by listening to a recording.
Even if the recording is of a live performance...

At the end of the 'Adagio di molto' - there is an amazing moment of silence before the audience seems to wake up and wonder should they applaud - would it break the spell...

Hilary - a very special person.

Since 2016, she has piloted free concerts for parents with infants, a knitting circle, a community dance workshop, a yoga class and art students. She plans to continue these community-oriented concerts, encouraging people to combine live performances with their interests outside the concert hall and providing opportunities for parents to hear music with their infants, who might be barred from traditional concerts.
— Wiki: Hilary Hahn

Thanks @tim wood for another extraordinary introduction... :sparkle:

A composer, arguably, wrests it from the void, coalescing music into sound of instrument and voice...

Each then, poetry and music, brought out, somehow, from a primordial reality that, finished, just is the reality of the thing itself; dressed, then, in a clothing of performance. Granted that between two competent performances one may be more resonant with one auditor, another with another. But is the performance opaque, in a sense, or more transparent? I find myself returning to the transparency that allows a view of the music itself. — tim wood

'Wrested from the void' ?
Brought out somehow...from a 'primordial reality' ?

I agree that the origin of any inspiration can be seen as mysterious - some say a gift from God.
However, I tend to think that it stems from the mind.
The origin of a human creation - or product of the creative process - starts with imagination.
A coalescing of ideas, senses - a way of seeing the potential to expand existing thoughts/dreams.
At a more basic level by playing around - as children do.

Play, performance, persona - the roles and masks - can be, as you suggest, transparent or opaque.

Why would you say that 'transparency' allows a view of the music itself ?
Are you relating this to the 'ego' of some performers which can overwhelm a piece ?
I agree that the aesthetics can be spoiled if the performer is distracting.

However, a degree of opaqueness is necessary if we are to suspend reality for a while, no ?
Escapism. Not just for the performer but for ourselves...it can enhance the experience.

You might be interested in this article which explores:

...varieties of personas: those which are transparent (such as when a singer performs more or less as that singer) and those which are opaque (such as when a singer performs more or less as a fictional character). I also distinguish between performance personas and song personas. After introducing and elucidating these distinctions, I discuss ways in which they further inform aesthetic evaluation of such performances. — Oxford Academic article: aesthetics and art criticism

... During some eras of Bowie's prolific career—perhaps during his early days, as well as his later run of albums—Bowie performed somewhat consistently under what was either a transparent performance persona or a rather stable Bowie opaque performance persona. During other times, he would adopt opaque performance personas, such as Ziggy Stardust or the Thin White Duke. If, during his later career, Bowie were to perform a song such as the Ziggy‐era “Moonage Daydream,” we can understand this as Bowie‐qua‐Bowie adopting a temporary Ziggy song persona. The best to way understand—and, hence, fully aesthetically engage with—Bowie's many performances, then, is to see him as a performer who frequently and freely cycled through transparent performance personas, opaque performance personas, and song personas, often layering them upon one another. It is to his credit as a singer and a performer that so many of his performances, filtered through persona atop persona, were such aesthetic successes. — Oxford academic article: Transparent and opaque performance personas

Meghan Trainor - Close Your Eyes (Official Audio)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGv0CYTe3eA

"Close Your Eyes"

Everybody's on the same page
No new chapters
We'll never change

Everybody wants to be cool, yes they do...
And I'm just like them
But I won't be no fool

I guess I could waste all my time and my money, just trying to look right
But it doesn't change who I am in my heart if I look like a dime

So I want you to close your eyes
Sing to the world tonight
And show them what's beautiful
I don't care what they think
No, I'm not listening
'Cause I know I'm beautiful
So close your eyes

(Sh-sh-show them what's beautiful sh-sh-show them what's beautiful)
Come and show them... Uh... Hey...
(Sh-sh-show them what's beautiful
Sh-sh-show them what's beautiful)

Everybody's born to be different
That's the one thing that makes us the same
So don't you let their words try to change you
Don't let them make you, into something you ain't... No!

So I want you to close your eyes
Sing to the world tonight
And show them what's beautiful
I don't care what they think
No, I'm not listening
'Cause I know I'm beautiful
So close your eyes

(Sh-sh-show them what's beautiful)

Show the world the you inside
Raise your voice and close your eyes
'Cause you're beautiful...
Come on and show the world the you inside
Raise your voice and close your eyes
'Cause you're beautiful...

So I want you to close your eyes
Sing to the world tonight
And show them what's beautiful
I don't care what they think
No, I'm not listening
'Cause I know I'm beautiful
So close your eyes

Following on from another discussion re difficulties in translation/interpretation in music/poetry:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/598712

Translating songs:

The song translation process becomes more complicated since the translator has to adjust the translation into a language where historical and cultural references of the target audience are involved. For example, the songs Bed of Roses by Bon Jovi and Yesterday by the Beatles are significant and poignant in their original language. However, even if there are several translations of these songs in other languages, the sensitivity that is in the original song is lost.

But we have to note that there are also songs that are more beautiful when performed in other languages, such as:

Life of Mars by David Bowie, performed in Portuguese by Seu Jorge
Paint it Black by The Rolling Stones, performed by Caterina Caselli in Italian (Tutto Nero)
Hotel California by The Eagles, performed in Spanish by Gipsy Kings
Baby Love by The Supremes, sang in French by Annie Philippe
Stairway to Heaven by Led Zeppelin, performed by Rodrigo y Gabriela with a flamenco guitar
Somebody to Love by Queen, performed in Spanish by Ednita Nazario
Stand by Me by E King, performed by Adriano Celentano in Italian — Translating songs

So, to check out the bold claim, I picked out 'Paint it, Black':

The Rolling Stones - Paint It, Black (Official Lyric Video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4irXQhgMqg

Compare:
Caterina Caselli - Tutto Nero (Paint It Black - The Rolling Stones Cover)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDYpag3JDVw

Parallel Engish/Italian translations here:
https://lyricstranslate.com/en/tutto-nero-all-black.html-0

All Black
At night the starless sky is all black,
the same (for) my heart till the last thought.
My life, without you, has no colour any more:
There is an eternal, desperate night inside me.

Tutto nero
Di notte il cielo senza stelle è tutto nero
così il mio cuore fino all'ultimo pensiero.
Non ha più colore la mia vita senza di te
c'è un'eterna notte disperata dentro di me...

***
The white walls of the room are black.
Where is the light that renders the existence beautiful?
Those who walk towards me in the streets look and don't know
that, for my sight, even the sun will be black...

Son nere le pareti bianche della stanza.
Dov'è la luce che fa bella l'esistenza?
Chi mi viene incontro per le strade guarda e non sa
che per il mio sguardo anche il sole nero sarà...

***
And, like a newborn baby looks for the world,
I look for the love that I lost and am crying.
How will I face life if I am missing you,
if the white morning dawn I will see it in black?

E come un bimbo appena nato cerca il mondo,
io cerco il bene che ho perduto e sto piangendo.
Affrontar la vita, se mi manchi, come farò
se la bianca aurora del mattino nera vedrò?...

***
Of black ink has become the green sea
since I came to know that you won't ever be able to come back.
Every day will always be the hour of the sunset.
My world is black like the darkness is black.

Di inchiostro nero è diventato il verde mare
da quando so che non potrai più ritornare.
Ogni giorno l'ora del tramonto sempre sarà.
Il mio mondo è nero com'è nera l'oscurità...

***

At night the starless sky is all black,
the same (for) my heart till the last thought.
My life, without you, has no colour any more:
There is an eternal, desperate night inside me.

Mm mm mm mm mm mm...

Di notte il cielo senza stelle è tutto nero
così il mio cuore fino all'ultimo pensiero.
Non ha più colore la mia vita senza di te,
c'è un'eterna notte disperata dentro di me...

***
And, like a newborn baby looks for the world,
I look for the love that I lost and am crying.
Mm mm mm mm mm mm....

E come un bimbo appena nato cerca il mondo,
io cerco il bene che ho perduto e sto piangendo ....

------

So, is the Italian version 'more beautiful' ?
Hmmm...is it more of less deep/dark...or just different...
Is there something lost or gained in translation ?
Does it even matter ?

Your highlighting the importance of presence in music sparked thoughts in a number of directions. — magritte

Likewise. Although I only responded to one aspect, I had been thinking of the complete interaction.
The whole process from beginning to end.
In addition, even as I learned how to listen more carefully to each instrument, I thought that too much objective analysis/criticism could spoil the subjective experience. As you say:

My wife thinks it's the best she's ever heard. So do I, but all I could think of at the time were those muted notes. Sorry me. — magritte

I wonder if rather than have ears wide open and alert, that it might be an idea to relax and close a little.
Be more laid back as if dreaming or in a relaxed, satisfied afterglow...
Just a thought.

***

But presence has other notable aspects. The performers make the music and not the composer. The composer is the beneficiary or victim of the instrumentalists — magritte

''Beneficiary or victim'. This sounds similar to foreign language translation and interpretation of a poem.
See @Olivier5 :
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/598381

"Yes I did translate it. Translating poems is always a treason though. As the Italians say: traduttore traditore."
It takes expertise to know the words, the context, feel the sense and share that experience.
@Olivier5 did that :100:

[ We see the same in philosophy interpretations/arguments. Not mentioning troublesome Plato ! ]

***

The beauty of youtube is that we can listen to so many versions to compare and share.
And learn.

For example @tim wood's link:
Hilary Hahn: Prokofiev's Violin Concerto No. 1 in a nutshell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=015QVOO-5Ek

And this is what I enjoy about watching someone perform. I used to think that it was overly dramatic, and in some cases that's true. However, Hilary explained how Prokofiev linked in choreography not just in ballet but in the techniques. At times, the whole body has to move 'expanding and contracting..

Hilary calls the performance a 'wild ride'. From a very still start...
She inspires confidence.
So any 'performance anxiety' - I sometimes feel as a listener is kept to a minimum.
I can relax and simply appreciate. For now, at home.

As you know I am not a native speaker so I get things wrong all the time. — Olivier5

Nah. Mostly you are brilliant :100:

"machin" is a reference to De Gaulle calling the United Nations (The House of Glass in New York) "un machin" (a thing, but derogatively, i.e. a thing that doesn't do anything). I tried to render the derogative nuance with "thingy"... Any suggestion? — Olivier5

Thanks for the explanation. I am not getting all the references, as yet.
I can't think of anything-y better :sparkle:
I wish I had half * your talent for translation and interpretation...
* or 'smidgeon'.
How does that translate ?

pincée - so Google tells me...

Thanks. I love this poem very much, makes me cry every time I read it. I hope the English reads well. — Olivier5

It is an extraordinary poem. I will have to read it again. Did you translate it ?
It does read very well - but I wasn't sure about:
Est redevenue le " machin " qu’on sait
Is once again this "thingy" we know

A minor detail but 'thingy' jarred a little. Why not just use the word 'thing' ?

20 pages on - a return to One. Thanks @Olivier5
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/8898/deep-songs/p1

U2 - One (Official Music Video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftjEcrrf7r0

One

Is it getting better?
Or do you feel the same?
Will it make it easier on you now
You got someone to blame?

You say one love, one life
When it's one need in the night
One love, we get to share it
Leaves you, baby, if you don't care for it

Did I disappoint you?
Or leave a bad taste in your mouth?
You act like you never had love
You want me to go without

Is it too late, tonight
To drag the past out into the light?
We're one, but we're not the same
We get to carry each other, carry each other
One

Have you come here for forgiveness?
Have you come to raise the dead?
Have you come here to play Jesus
To the lepers in your bed?

Did I ask too much, more than a lot?
You gave me nothing, now it's all I've got
We're one, but we're not the same
Well, we hurt each other, then we do it again

You say
Love is a temple, love a higher law
Love is a temple, love the higher law
You ask me to enter, then you make me crawl
And I can't be holding on to what you've got
When all you got is hurt

One love, one blood
One life you got to do what you should
One life with each other, sisters, brothers
One life, but we're not the same
We get to carry each other, carry each other

One
One

-----

* NB - Final verses as copied here are not sung in the video. All the better for it !

[ Do you hear me coming Lord?
Can you hear me call?
Hear me knockin', knockin' at your door?

Do you hear me coming Lord?
Can you hear me calling?
Feel the scratching?
Ooh you make me crawl

Thank you ]

Songwriters: Clayton Adam, Bono
For non-commercial use only.
Data from: Musixmatch

Superb....

......Have you come here to play Jesus
To the lepers in your head?...... — Olivier5

Yes. Superb... :smile:

I checked on the lyricist. Not Jerry Chesnut as above but Bono:

U2 - One (Official Music Video)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftjEcrrf7r0

I'm in 'love' mode. Make the most of it :wink: :kiss:

...modern philosophers may be playing the disenchanted, but artists are not. — Olivier5

Perhaps. Not all. 'Some' in both cases.
Individuals work, play, think and express stuff as perceived in any given period.
Music, poetry and philosophy can be as 'one'.

I just looked back at your first post on the 'Deep Songs' thread; a thread I adore :cool:

Here's the same song but different video. What a life story...

Johnny Cash - One (Music Video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjJU8gon02k

One
Johnny Cash

Is it getting better
Or do you feel the same?
Will it make it easier on you now
You've got someone to blame?

You said
One love
One life
When it's one need
In the night
One love, we get to share it
It leaves you, baby, if you don't care for it

Did I disappoint you
Or leave a bad taste in your mouth?
You act like you never had love
And you want me to go without

Well it's
Too late
Tonight
To drag the past out
Into the light
We're one, but we're not the same
We get to carry each other
Carry each other
One

Have you come here for forgivness?
Have you come to raise the dead?
Have you come here to play Jesus
To the lepers in your head?

Did I ask too much?
More than a lot?
You gave me nothing, now
It's all I got
We're one, but we're not the same
Well, we hurt each other, and we're doin' it again

You said love is a temple
Love the higher law
Love is a temple
Love the higher law
You ask me to enter
But then you make me crawl
And I can't be holdin' on
To what you've got
When all you've got is hurt

One love
One blood
One life
You've got to do what you should
One life with each other

Sister
Brothers
One life, but we're not the same
We get to carry each other
Carry each other

One
One
One
One

Songwriters: Jerry Chesnut Bono
For non-commercial use only.
Data from: Musixmatch

composer: Adam Clayton, Larry Mullen, Jr., Bono, The Edge
lyricist: Bono — Lyrics: 'One'

what is there to "wonder" at today? — 180 Proof

Elvis Presley - The Wonder of You (Official Video Starring Kate Moss)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcesjvyWmvg

:hearts: :broken: :heart:

My preferred - idiosyncratic - notion is 'ecstasy' rather than 'mysticism'; ecstatic practices - what Iris Murdoch calls unselfings - rather than mystical, or spiritual, exercises (i.e. union with (some) 'transcendent' (something)); ego-suspending via everyday living (i.e. encounters (à la Buber) - sleep, play, prayer, meditation, or contemplation via [ ... ] and/or hallucinogens) rather than ego-killing via ritualized ascetics (e.g. monasticism, militarism, etc). Not religious, not spiritual, not mystical - but I am (an) ecstatic.
— 180 Proof

I'm pleased...nay, ecstatic for ya' ! :sparkle:

"Wonder" worked for the ancients but, in this disenchanted age, — 180 Proof

Wonder. Not just for the ancients, though. It might be a disenchanted age but even when dispirited - I feel wonder...and keep wondering...for better or worse...

...You were just looking like a groupie there for a second. — frank

Hah.
He should be so lucky :wink:

:smile:
Neither. I said I followed him but more as a friend from philo forum to philo forum...
Why do you care ?

It kind of sounds like you've made a sort of guru out of Fooloso4. — frank

Guru in the sense of a teacher, he is. I haven't made him that though.

Thanks for the Edit:

We also see one way in which Plato is addressing two different types of readers. On the one hand he says that there are independent Forms, but on the other he indicates that things are not quite so simple. We are left to ask about the origin of the Forms. We are also compelled to consider in what way things would be able to "participate" in the Form. Socrates raises the question in the "Second Sailing" section of the Phaedo:...
...Beautiful we mentioned, for I will not insist on the precise nature of the relationship, but that all beautiful things are beautiful by the Beautiful. That, I think, is the safest answer I can give myself or anyone else.” (100e) — Fooloso4

Yes. Thanks for that reminder from your previous thread:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/10914/platos-phaedo/p1

***

He raises the question of the relationship between things and Forms, but does not insist on the precise nature of that relationship. Why? It he had a coherent argument why wouldn't he present it here or elsewhere? He calls the hypothesis of Forms (100a) simple, naive, and perhaps foolish, and later "safe and ignorant". (105 b)

Now some will try to defend the idea of transcendent Forms with accusations of bias against those who question it, but in that case it would seem that Plato is biased against Plato.] — Fooloso4

So it would seem...

Re the ultimate goal of philosophy, Solomon and Hadot:

I first met @Fooloso4 on another forum in a galaxy far, far away. I've followed him ever since.
In a discussion entitled 'Secular Spirituality' - he impressed with careful replies to my questions:

What is 'Secular Spirituality' ?
Would you agree with the suggestion below that it is 'the ultimate goal of philosophy'?

'According to Robert C. Solomon, an American Professor of Philosophy, "spirituality is coextensive with religion and it is not incompatible with or opposed to science or the scientific outlook. Naturalized spirituality is spirituality without any need for the 'other‐worldly'. Spirituality is one of the goals, perhaps the ultimate goal, of philosophy."

@Fooloso4 wrote:
p1:

I have not read Robert Solomon’s take on this but I offer the following:

Plato’s Socrates famously said that philosophy begins in wonder (greek: thaumazein). Aristotle said:
All begin, as we have said, by wondering that things should be as they are …
(Metaphysics 983a).

Wonder is an spiritual experience. The history of the term ‘spiritual’, however, has led many to understand this is a narrow and confused sense. Spiritual in its etymological meaning had to do with breath, that is, life (cf. respire, expire, aspire). That we live and die and how best to live and die is a matter of wonder. It arises, as Aristotle said, from aporias, that is, from an impasse of our understanding.

A further difficulty we must face is that Aristotle referred to the Metaphysics as a theology. This may lead some to conclude that what Aristotle was up to was something akin to Aquinas without Christ. But Aristotle’s concern was with “being qua being”, the study of the first causes and principles of things. One who has knowledge of such things would properly be wise (sophia) but Aristotle never claims to be wise. He aspires (note the extension of the term) to be wise,but has not overcome the perplexity that gives rise to and guides philosophy.

In religion we find both an emphasis on the unknown and a plurality of answers to the unknown. When Solomon says that “spirituality is coextensive with religion” I take him to mean that it raises some of the same questions and concerns about life, but when he goes on to rejects the “otherworldly” I take him to mean he rejects the appeal to transcendent answers that are found in religion.

p6:

Hadot’s "Philosophy as a Way of Life", "What is Ancient Philosophy", and "The Inner Citadel: The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius" are helpful for seeing philosophy as therapeutic and transformative practice, an aspect of philosophy that has been occluded by a narrow focus on rationality and the idea that truth is impersonal. This is, however, not merely a matter of historical interest. Wittgenstein, for example, was aware of the spiritual, therapeutic, and transformative dimension of philosophy. Frege's dogmatic rejection of psychologism is now no longer universally accepted by analytic philosophers as an obvious truth.

There is a growing acknowledgement that philosophy as abstraction from human being in the service to Truth is fundamentally wrong, that philosophy is essentially grounded in human life. I see this not as a matter of academic versus non-academic philosophy but as a possibility for a correction within academic philosophy.

Works by Princeton professor of philosophy Alexander Nehamas, such as "The Art of Living: Socratic Reflections from Plato to Foucault" and "On Friendship" might be signposts for the direction of academic philosophy, or they might be disregarded as wooly-headed and soft, literature not philosophy, and this too might be seen as a signpost, a sign of philosophy’s inability to self-correct, of its increasing narrowness and irrelevance.

That was just over 3yrs ago. We still seem to be on the same page...
Thanks @Fooloso4. Take care :flower:

In the intelligible realm there are no sensibles, only objects of the mind. — Fooloso4

Meant to say thanks for clarification. Most helpful. But as usual other questions arise. What are the 'objects of the mind' ?
Sounds like abstract mental concepts.
However, the 'sensible' from the other ( physical ) realm can still reach/affect them, no ? The body and the mind are inter-related. It's a 2-way process.
Ideas arise from imagination, a mental faculty for which we need the brain...
Humans are the creators.