I am still not sure about how tolerant anyone should be to anyone else. it is another matter of personal choice. What I may tolerate others may not. We have to live with this fact. — I like sushi

Tolerance can be intolerable. The tolerant can be destroyed by the intolerant.
Interesting when it comes to 'open dialogue'. So often closed down by the dogmatic who only listen to their own narcissistic, egotistical desires. Even as they espouse religious beliefs or faith.

The 'personal choice' of those in positions of high political power - who would bully and kill world citizens - who control by hate, war and destruction - should never be acceptable. It is criminal.

If the 'freedom' wedge of vitriolic hate speech and promotion of violence are tolerated, then it becomes normalised. To all our detriment. Extremists in religion/politics manipulate words and images to cover their malignancies and justify acts of terror.

Dear God, if Trump wins he will grant himself the Nobel Peace Prize. Because, of course, there will be no war...he can make deals. He can make wishes come true. Peace to all. He has God delusions. It seems half of America believe him.

We can't stop people believing what they want or what they are told.
Education can help but, yes, not always accessible. And so on...

Apologies, I've gone off- topic. But the issue of abortion seems to be key as to how people will vote in America. Should this be such a determining factor, when there are so many others.
You can be anti- abortion but still vote Democrat, no? Or is it all so very black and white...

I don't know. But I am deeply and increasingly concerned as to the level of ignorance, arrogance and aggression leading to regression and destruction of human rights.

I thought it would be an interesting discussion especially as it is such a hot topic in America right now and I was wondering if someone on here would take me up on the offer to explain why they think banning abortion is the right thing to do. — Samlw

It has been a 'hot topic in America' forever and a day. However, I agree with you that, right now, beliefs about abortion will be a major factor in the American election. Interesting indeed.

I can a degree of sympathy with those who believe that life is sacred form the point of conception, but personally I just do not see things this way. Open dialogue is a good thing if people can respect/understand the authority of evidence others are working with. — I like sushi

The trouble is when religious 'pro-life' or 'anti-abortion' activists push their 'dialogue' outside abortion clinics. This adds danger to an already fraught situation. Protests and obstructing workers and patients.
Abuse and intimidation have required legislation to enable buffer or protection zones. These will extend to a 150-metre radius.

However, it may be the case that 'silent prayer' is allowed.

Bishop Sherrington, a spokesman for the Catholic Bishops’ Conference of England and Wales, said the buffer zone legislation discriminates against people of faith.

In a statement he said: "By legislating for and implementing so-called ‘safe access zones’, the UK government has taken an unnecessary and disproportionate step backwards in the protection of religious and civic freedoms.

"Religious freedom includes the right to manifest one’s private beliefs in public through witness, prayer and charitable outreach, including outside abortion facilities." — BBC News - Abortion Safe Zones

'Religious freedom'. Is this a fundamental human right? Where are the limits? When it encroaches on other freedoms or rights. Like those of women. A world-wide problem - wider than abortion.

I'm coming late to this discussion. So, apologies if I'm going over old ground. But @180 Proof' s post caught my eye.

Abortion - Why are people pro life?
— Samlw
As an American, my two bits: "pro life" folks, especially those who are also pro-guns, pro-death penalty, pro-voter suppression & anti-immigration / ethno-nationalist, seek to control (reverse) demographic trends by controlling women's bodies and use 'Bronze Age superstitions' (rather than modern science / medicine) to 'justify' their movement. — 180 Proof

Absolutely spot on! And I'm not American.
I had similar thoughts when I read the shocking Guardian article re Capital punishment, yesterday.
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/935435
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/sep/29/america-executions-death-penalty

Six days of horror: America’s thirst for executions returns with a vengeance
Five executions, five states: a glut of judicial killing not seen in 20 years took place last week – and there was nothing random about it.

The terms: 'pro-life' and 'pro-choice', describe opposing sides of the abortion debate, are not helpful.
It's using loaded, extreme language for a specific and contentious issue. In general, people are FOR life and FOR choice. The trouble is that opponents are then deemed 'Anti life' and 'Anti choice'.
How ridiculous. Call it like it is. 'Pro-life' is 'Anti-Abortion'. Why muddy the waters? To persuade voters of the evils of Democrats?

If you are PRO life, then logically this should extend to opposition to guns, war and the death penalty.
It clearly doesn't and shows the toxic hypocrisy of the Republicans in America.

This is not about saving innocent life.

It is about power and control of women and their bodies.

The best fiction combines philosophy and social commentary, edification and intellectual stimulation in an entertaining form. (At least, that's what some of us aspire to.) — Vera Mont

Thank you. Take care :flower:

I've had some TPF interactions re Murdoch and Plato with e.g. 180 Proof and @Fooloso4.
I've still to tackle a Murdoch recommendation by 180 - 'Metaphysics as a Guide to Morals'. It's real heavy! Any advice as to a 'way in' gratefully received. The highlights?

With Fooloso4, what sticks in my mind is my initial condemnation of Plato - blaming him for the negativity towards poets and creativity in 'The Republic'. And how this has trickled down through the ages. We can question how we separate 'Philosophy' and its categories from the creative life. Stories to the left of us... — Amity

@180 Proof and @Fooloso4 - Never mind. It all seems quite pitiful, now.

Thanks to all who have participated. Stay well :sparkle:

While I fancied that that understood where some philosophers were coming from, and what they were having a go at, I never figured out whether Philosophy as a whole intended or aspired. As a 'discipline', I think it's purely academic, because it takes a pedagogue's orderly mind to make a system of it; in the wild, it's quite undisciplined. Does it serve a social function? Some branches do; some practitioners do so deliberately and self-consciously, while some, I'm a little afraid to say aloud in this environment, seem to me no more than cloud-gazing and verbal calisthenics — Vera Mont

Well. Where to start. I don't think it unusual for people to wonder as to the benefits of Philosophy as an academic discipline. Been discussed many times. The aspirations and aims of any course are usually well-defined. It can be seen an objective, civilised system in comparison to the 'wildness' of internet forums. They are both systems within which can be found imagination and thought-provoking claims.
As always, in Education, so much can depend on individual profs, tutors and the participating students. They have various demands placed on them but nevertheless keep the spirit of questioning and exploration alive.

As to Philosophy serving a 'social function'...what is that exactly? Whose philosophy?

I've had enough of talk. I should stop there. I am sick to my stomach at the inability to stop or even lessen the effects of male criminals and bullies of the world. Crimes against humanity going unpunished.
Wars started by male egos in a never-ending, crazy downward spiral. Who wins?

The Republican supporters of MAGA can go to the Hell they believe in. Within a system that is rotten to the core.

Only one example. The so-called Justice system - Capital punishment.
Don't read this, if you want to stay calm.
From: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/sep/29/america-executions-death-penalty

Six days of horror: America’s thirst for executions returns with a vengeance
Five executions, five states: a glut of judicial killing not seen in 20 years took place last week – and there was nothing random about it.

“I don’t think anything represents our long history of racial injustice more dramatically than the tolerance of racial bias in the administration of the death penalty,” Stevenson said. “For a Black defendant to be tried by a nearly all-white jury in a county with a substantial Black population, and have the courts look the other way, that’s the shadow, the pollution, that the history of lynching and segregation and punitive enslavement has created.” [...]

On Thursday, Miller, 59, was put to death by Alabama for the 1999 shootings of three of his co-workers. The state used nitrogen gas effectively to suffocate him – an experimental killing technique that has only been deployed once before in US history, with the execution in January of Kenneth Smith, also by Alabama.

An eyewitness for the Associated Press described Miller’s death by nitrogen in hauntingly similar terms to Smith’s: “He shook and trembled on the gurney for about two minutes with his body at times pulling against the restraints. That was followed by about six minutes of periodic gulping.”...

The article continues with more disturbing details of the previous attempt to kill Miller in September 2022. Alabama.

Politics. Big Boy Bullies and their MAGA philosophy or ideology. America gets worse with Trump.

The federal courts, which Trump transformed by appointing more than 200 judges during his presidency, have also changed their tune. Where they once acted as a failsafe against unreliable convictions, they now largely step aside.

That is especially true of the US supreme court, with its new ultra-right supermajority secured by Trump’s three appointed justices, Neil Gorsuch, Brett Kavanaugh and Amy Coney Barrett.

“There’s been a radical shift in the legal culture as it relates to the death penalty in the past six years,” said Bryan Stevenson, founder of the Equal Justice Initiative...

Who is Stevenson? Did he read Plato? Look up wiki. His memoir 'Just Mercy'.

Never mind, eh. If I had the time I'd go looking for a song set in the South of France sung by a Welshman with a hiccup...

:lol:
Were you singing at the time?

Reminiscing over at the 'What are your listening to thread'.
Remembering @Olivier5 and all the wonderful music he shared. Merci :cool:
Including this:

“Ne me quitte pas“ is Belgian singer Jacques Brel’s single most famous song. Brel first released the song in 1959 and released an album with the same title in 1972. The meaning of “Ne me quitte pas” is “Don’t leave me” or “Do not leave me”. This post provides line-by-line explanations of the lyrics’ vocabulary and grammar... — French Learner - Songs

The French do a mean chanson. — unenlightened

Bien sûr, mais...
NB Belgian not French. Just like Hercules Poirot.

The French do a mean chanson.

Here, if you don't know it is one of the best: — unenlightened

Merci beaucoup. I hadn't heard that version before. C’est magnifique :cool:
I recognised it and wondered who had shared it.
@180 Proof posted 'Ne me quitte pas' about 3 or 4 yrs ago - as sung by Nina Simone.

I thought of @Olivier5 who I still miss. We had so much fun dancing our way through his 'Deep Songs' thread. Opening eyes to a variety of music and foreign language. Universal appreciation.
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/8898/deep-songs/p1
and elsewhere in the Short Stories Competition.

He also had much to say in philosophy proper, participating in numerous threads. Shame the way the political discussion re the Ukraine Crisis turned to a fast and furious engagement with a certain poster. The passion and anger didn't let up...

When I think of it, not all that often, I still burn at the injustice of @Jamal for banning him.
Mais c'est la vie, according to TPF. Tant pis :meh:

We move on...
Wherever Olivier is, I hope he is singing, dancing and laughing to the music of life :sparkle:

Poetry and Music

It's easy to see the connection between poetry and song lyrics. But can that be translated to sound, notes and chords? I suggested earlier that poetry is in the world of nature. Where else do we find the magical melodies; the murmuration and susurration...?

Inspired by @unenlightened's posting of the instrumental version of La Mer:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/935055

La Mer. The poetry of its lyrics, in French and English. Embedded video of Trenet singing his song. And how it inspired other creative works:

Bergère d’azur infinie
Artist and commenter on this song Sophie Howard (@sophiemmh) was inspired by Trenet’s la Mer to create the sculpture pictured here, which she has called “The Infinite Shepherdess.” About it she says: “The body of the shepherdess is made from old buildings. The horse’s hooves touch the waves which rock boats on the shore. A bird’s head forms the eye of the horse. The clouds are like curls from the back of a sheep. Everything is wind-whipped.” It will be exhibited in London at the Mall Galleries in June 2024. — La Mer by Charles Trenet - French song translations

Ear-twisting chord sequences. Yum. — unenlightened

I love this. What a superb find! La Mer. One of my favourites. This is so unusual. The story of Django...wow.

From 4 years ago:

Deep Songs
La Mer by Julio Iglesias at end of 'Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy' film based on book by John le Carre.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3SSIp2J3YHM

Brief note re the contrast of the tune with 'the tortured love-hate, self-or-country dynamics at work in the scene.' Here:

https://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2016/05/track-of-the-day-la-mer/482637/ — Amity

I've linked this to my current Lounge chat, concerning poetry and music:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/935057

Poetry in Music?

Yes I'm stuck in the middle with you,
And I'm wondering what it is I should do,
It's so hard to keep this smile from my face,
Losing control, yeah, I'm all over the place,
Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right,
Here I am, stuck in the middle with you

Stealers Wheel ~ Stuck In The Middle With You [LYRICS]

Well, we took her shopping and brought her KFC buckets, too: whatever made her life a little brighter. — Vera Mont

That is Love. :heart:
Making 'life a little brighter' is one of the best things anyone can do for themselves or others.
And I agree it is important to know when to hold one's tongue. First, do no harm.

Not sure whether this will brighten, enlighten or even be read but here goes nothing:

Turning my attention to: Iris Murdoch and Plato and 'Good for Nothing'.

First of all, my laptop has recovered. All hail Technology and wonderful experts who repair and restore.
It means that I'm now scouring its contents with the aim of saving the worthy to a memory stick. Or at least, knowing where to find 'stuff'.

Looking through old emails, I found a link to an article. It's a fascinating review of Iris Murdoch's 'Work for the Spirit' by Elizabeth Dipple.[ emphasis added]

With 3339 words, it starts:

Philosophy, religion, science,’ wrote D.H. Lawrence, ‘they are all of them busy nailing things down ... But the novel, no ... If you try to nail anything down, in the novel, it either kills the novel, or the novel gets up and walks away with the nail!’

Hence Lawrence’s conclusion that only the novel can now do for us what philosophy once aspired to do:
Plato’s Dialogues were queer little novels. It seems to me that it was the greatest pity in the world when philosophy and fiction got split. They used to be one, right from the days of myth. Then they parted, like a nagging married couple, with Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas and that beastly Kant. So the novel went sloppy and philosophy went abstract-dry. The two should come together again – in the novel.

Why in the novel? ‘You may know a truth but if it’s at all complicated you have to be an artist not to utter it as a lie,’ says one of Iris Murdoch’s characters in An Accidental Man who is explaining why he has abandoned philosophy. It is always dangerous to impute a character’s views to an author: but in Iris Murdoch’s case there is a special hazard. — LRB - Alasdair MacIntyre - Good for nothing

I've had some TPF interactions re Murdoch and Plato with e.g. @180 Proof and @Fooloso4.
I've still to tackle a Murdoch recommendation by 180 - 'Metaphysics as a Guide to Morals'. It's real heavy! Any advice as to a 'way in' gratefully received. The highlights?

With Fooloso4, what sticks in my mind is my initial condemnation of Plato - blaming him for the negativity towards poets and creativity in 'The Republic'. And how this has trickled down through the ages. We can question how we separate 'Philosophy' and its categories from the creative life. Stories to the left of us...

[...] Yet Plato himself would have expelled the dramatic poets from the republic and understood the mimesis of art as a tempting source of illusion. A Neoplatonic novelist seems to be an embodied contradiction.

Iris Murdoch has confronted this problem in The Fire and the Sun: Why Plato Banished the Artists, where she draws our attention to Plato’s ambivalence about the arts. ‘He kept emphasising the imageless remoteness of the Good, yet kept returning in his exposition to the more elaborate uses of art.’ And she might well have drawn our attention to the fact that in the Republic, where Plato’s attack on all sensible representation is most vehement, the exposition of the diagram of the line, in terms of which the theory of forms is explained, includes the remark that any type of apprehension which has to be mediated by a diagram cannot be true knowledge of the forms. But if we and Glaucon and Adeimantus have had to learn about the forms by means of the diagram of the line, then sensible representation has had to play its part in the mind’s ascent towards the Form of the Good, and perhaps a part that cannot ever quite be left behind. And where then does the condemnation of the artist stand, deriving as it does in Book X precisely from the fact that mimesis is a form of sensible representation? It is very much to the point that Plato’s attack on the dramatic poets is voiced in a work which is itself an outstanding piece of dramatic art. — LRB - Alasdair MacIntyre review

I'm not sure if MacIntyre gives us a correct interpretation. Any thoughts?

[...] Iris Murdoch seems to be at one with Plato, although she extends his suspicion of art into a suspicion of philosophy. It too can screen us from the Form of the Good, it too can be a form of self-indulgence. And just as Plato attacked dramatic art in a play, so Iris Murdoch has voiced her indictments of philosophy in philosophical essays as well as in novels. [...]

[Her] storytelling voice is what gives the novels their pace and their comic energy, and with these, the enjoyment that comes from the reader’s, and the characters’, being carried along so swiftly. But where are the characters being carried to? At what does the directedness of those who aim at the good point? Where does the distractedness of those who fail to aim at the good prevent them from moving to? Aristotle long ago criticised the Platonic conception of the Form of the Good for being practically empty, for affording us no guidance. Lacking any specific content, it is in fact a nothing, the ghost of a something.

It is characteristic of Iris Murdoch’s later novels that all goodness being referred to the Form of the Good seems to entail that there is no such thing as a good way of life or a good form of human community. Good is an object only of individual aspiration. Social circumstances are not themselves, except accidentally, part of the matter of morality, which is a purely individual enterprise and one that, just because what is good is good ‘for nothing’, leads nowhere. This is why her novels have no genuine endings.

I don't intend this to become an in-depth discussion concerning Murdoch, Plato and the Good but would appreciate thoughts/opinions as to the above.

We can read a novel and its characters and sometimes assume the author's views are one and the same. Sometimes, it is obviously autobiographical as in e.g. Philip Roth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Roth

How true is it that: 'the novel can now do for us what philosophy once aspired to'. :chin:

Yes, i think we're probably reading too much into it, bringing too much of our own experience to it. But, what the hay, isn't that what poetry is for? — Vera Mont

Yes. That's part of the fun of poetry. The writer and readers care and share. In all kinds of ways. Amazing to see where a single 2-part poem can lead... Really enjoyed your interpretation. It reminds me of our times in TPFs Literary Challenge. The Short Story Stimulating the brain cells...

I loved that. — wonderer1

Yes! There are some real gems hidden away...still more to come. Hopefully...

I understand it really is a deep seated fear for her, and knowing that in particular, I'm not much inclined to challenge her views. — wonderer1

It takes a certain kind of courage to share personal stories. And to show ways of coping and dealing with 'differences of opinion' in family and other situations.
Both you and @Vera Mont have been inspirational. Thank you :sparkle: :flower:

I couldn't find anything that makes clear the sex of the child. — wonderer1

Strangely enough, the confusion reminded me of @Tobias captivating story. The hairpin.
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/13745/the-hairpin-by-tobias/p1

And it made me wonder as to the Mum. She might have been like her daughter but unlike her she was totally brainwashed and not in a position to leave her husband...or father?
They may well have been the 'He' in Part 1...
Overthinking? :chin:

Another lovely poem. It reminded me of Greyfriars Bobby.
https://edinburgh.org/blog/the-tale-of-greyfriars-bobby/

I read the second part as being between a mother and son, simply because it was easy for me to relate to it that way even though, on rereading' I couldn't find anything that makes clear the sex of the child. — wonderer1

I think that the reader always brings their self to an interpretation. How else could it be? And I thought too that the poem could be autobiographical. The writer being female. But I don't know...probably not.

It's an all too easy assumption to make! Maybe just biographical. Imagination creating parts of a whole.

Oh, not directly. My father was a bully, nothing we could do about that. — Vera Mont

Still, very unfortunate. Your mother did well in the circumstances.

She made fun of it, so my brother and I learned to make fun of it. — Vera Mont

That seems to be the way to manage bullies. See current American politics. Not taking Trump seriously and making fun of him. The downside is that it can infuriate and make matters worse. The situation is serious.

But I did subsequently witness how it happens to others — Vera Mont

A few stories to be told there. Most are never shared. The voices unheard.

The even more insidious form is smothering 'love' - sustained and unrelenting emotional blackmail. — Vera Mont

'Love' in its most hateful, abusive form.

Yes, it is excellent as two halves of a whole. — Vera Mont

Yes. The more I look, the more I see...

The first part a grandiose narcissist father and his daughter. The second part a covert/vulnerable narcissist mother and her son. — wonderer1

Hmm. Interesting point of view.
For me, Part 1 concerned a domineering husband confronted by his wife finding a new way, after a loss of faith. A better way to live.
The second, a loving mother showing religious concern for her daughter's soul. And losing control of the situation.

Both have conflict and tension. The wife/daughter being torn every which way.

That's just wrong! If you're going to print a poem, print the whole thing - else, desist. — Vera Mont

Exactly.

"And often asks her not to yell"
That's the gist of it for me, the power trip. If he 'raises his voice from time to time', it's because she's being obtuse and exasperating; if she does, she's strident or hysterical. I know this story well enough. — Vera Mont

Yes. It's all about power and control. You are not alone in knowing this story.

I do know the other one, too: the drip, drip, drip of guilt, of shaming, of turning your best impulses on you as weapons. — Vera Mont

Sorry to hear that. I know guilt as being inbuilt. Stemming from religion.
Also, a necessary part of a moral, legal system. But it's not healthy when it adversely affects our mental health.
Or worse, being found guilty, sent to prison as an innocent. Awaiting death for decades and then being killed unjustly. Dear God!

Yes, I can see how this poem could bring tears to the eyes of a pet lover.
They are precious companions who bring joy, love and comfort in so many ways.

When my elderly Aunt tried to describe how depressed she felt after the loss of her dog ( there were other major factors ) - the young, male doctor couldn't understand or empathize. "But it's only a dog!"
How the heart can be broken...but the pain is part of the pleasure.
We know it will come. And dogs are replaced. Each having their own character, personality and love.

Coping with the loss of a mother and then a wife:
Anthony Hopkins as Jack, - C.S. Lewis, from Shadowlands:

Why love, if losing hurts so much? I have no answers anymore: only the life I have lived. Twice in that life I've been given the choice: as a boy and as a man. The boy chose safety, the man chooses suffering. The pain now is part of the happiness then. That's the deal. — Shadowlands 1993

Thanks. You make good points as to why Part 2 is disregarded by some who find it too long and less sharp.

However, I find it troubling that it is not even included in the Poetry Foundation website. Only the part concerning the Man.

This not only shows disrespect to the female writer but denies people potential access to the internal subjective experience of being inside someone's head. Almost like a stream of consciousness. The repetitions necessary for effect. The troubling voices going round and round.

Part 1 seems more objective. Showing a distant, rational aspect. This is how it is between them. Females can relate to that. The apparent superiority of males.
The paradoxical call on logic to support his (emotional) faith.
The religious aspect is contemporary, political and hits home.

She tries her best to prove him wrong.
But he has learned to argue well.
He calls her arguments unsound
And often asks her not to yell.

Can't you just see/hear it ? The male narcissistic bully pushing it to the limits and then dismissing her opinion/arguments as emotional!
The cold rationality of 'fact' v the heat of passion, supported by knowledge.
The right and the wrong. Sometimes, it's about more than opinion.

Differences of Opinion

I find it interesting that more attention is given to the first part. Indeed, some only receive this as a short poem. The second part disregarded. Why?
1. He tells her
2. Your mother knows

The change in perspective and effect on/of the writer can be seen in the time, length and weight given to each. The different form, style and tone.

The conclusion in 1. The planet goes on being round.

For me, seems to be a resignation. You can't argue with someone who has a dogmatic, delusional belief. Tired of trying, you 'let it be'.
'She cannot win' - he stands on his fact, flat ground. Enough said. Cut short.
So is she then silenced? What happens next? This non-negotiation or lack of regard is bound to have consequences. Her world turns...

2. Longer and more challenging reflecting a greater degree of angst, I think.
This is not a gender difference of opinion but generational. And with the closest of blood relatives. The mother/daughter bond usually strong is being severely tested.

The religious mother prays, 'hoping' for the daughter to change. But it seems the daughter has lost her faith and can't return to being Mummy's good little girl.
Both are experiencing loss and grief.

The personal and social challenges of changing belief. This is an instance where the fight is for your life. You can't 'let it be' and yet you must, if you still love and want to be close to your Mum. The conflict and tension evident. The words go round your head:

You’re difficult.  You don’t fit in.
You know your anger is a sin.

It is this fight that continues in philosophy and politics.
We see this daily. The consequences of powerful, religious males who dominate the world. War. The cowards who would hide behind or use a God. Who now no longer care about anyone but themselves. Hospitals, homes, women and children killed, wounded or displaced. The environment destroyed.
You will be exterminated. Some people pray...

A couple of days ago my mom told me she would be praying for me. If she knew about this guy wonderer on the internet, she would probably consider him the antichrist. :wink: — wonderer1

Yes. It is relatable. We often show different sides of our self to keep peace and love. There can be a need to 'let it be'. Not to challenge if it will cause deep pain and a family breakdown. It won't change anyone's deeply held faith.

It is a different kettle of fish when the person without faith is spurned and cast out. That must be traumatic...

The wars of world-wide, hate-filled preachers of 'Us v Them' is tragic.
There will always be 'Differences of Opinion'.
It is how we negotiate them that matters. How does philosophy help?

My speculation is that whether we consciously recognize such poetic elements, our subconscious is excited by patterns in detecting such elements, and that can literally result in an altered state of mind in which we can see things from a different perspective. — wonderer1

Yes. Perhaps so. We can view the natural world as a poetic element. An aesthetic experience stimulating the senses, consciously and subconsciously.
Taking a walk on the wild side...the world as poetry. Poetry in the world and beyond. :chin:

By poetic elements, I had in mind things like rhyme, rhythm, alliteration, assonance, etc — wonderer1

Yes. There is also the use of symbolism. Symbols can help or hinder readers understanding. If there is a sensory impression or shared association, it can take the mind to deeper places. Perhaps to enrich or trouble. Or question...world views or values. If open and curious, the reader's imagination can be stimulated.

However, delving through the layers is not always desired. And a simple reading will suffice. But then what is missing? Appreciation of the artistic; intriguing words can unearth deeper meanings and a hidden world beauty.

From: https://www.poetryfoundation.org/education/glossary/symbol

Poets such as William Blake and W.B. Yeats often use symbols when they believe in—or seek—a transcendental (religious or spiritual) reality.

Of course, Jung is known for his symbolism; Goethe and other poets have been inspired by him. And we could say there is a kind of alchemy afoot. Floating into a different awareness. Or perhaps I'm being too fanciful.

There are many grounded, funny poems which resonate without any such thing going on. It's a simple case of using ordinary language to engage with contemporary concerns. No great need for interpretation.

I only just realised that that this poem was a 2-parter:

Differences of Opinion by Wendy Cope

Two-part poem first published Poetry Magazine in 2006.

1.

HE TELLS HER

He tells her that the earth is flat —
He knows the facts, and that is that.
In altercations fierce and long
She tries her best to prove him wrong.
But he has learned to argue well.
He calls her arguments unsound
And often asks her not to yell.
She cannot win. He stands his ground.

The planet goes on being round.

2.

YOUR MOTHER KNOWS

Your mother knows the earth’s a plane
And, challenged, sheds a martyr’s tear.
God give her strength to bear this pain –
A child who says the world’s a sphere!

Challenged, she sheds a martyr’s tear.
It’s bad to make your mother cry
By telling her the world’s a sphere.
It’s very bad to tell a lie.

It’s bad to make your mother cry.
It’s bad to think your mother odd.
It’s very bad to tell a lie.
All this has been ordained by God.

It’s bad to think your mother odd.
The world is round.  That’s also true.
All this has been ordained by God.
It’s hard to see what you can do.

The world is round.  That must be true.
She’s praying, hoping you will change.
It’s hard to see what you can do.
Already people find you strange.

She’s praying, hoping you will change.
You’re difficult.  You don’t fit in.
Already people find you strange.
You know your anger is a sin.

You’re difficult.  You don’t fit in.
God give her strength to bear this pain.
You know your anger is a sin.
Your mother knows the earth’s a plane.

Re: nostalgia. Actually, I have to admit, it did give me a pang when I saw your interaction with @Agent Smith. Now gone...
And when I read some of the beginning pages, yeah, there were some good moments of sharing.
Unfortunately, I left with an overall distaste for the Tao Te Ching...

I am ready to go there, and share thoughts and ideas with you. It will be a pleasure.  :up: — javi2541997

Sorry to have been so dismissive. It's a pleasure to share thoughts with you :up:

I am ready to go there, and share thoughts and ideas with you. It will be a pleasure.  :up: — javi2541997

Hah, yeah! Not gonna happen. Not in that particular thread, anyway. I'm as nostalgic for that as my cookery class exam in high school. :fear: :monkey:

Time flies indeed. Soon be deid! :death: :flower:

The pins are out
— Amity
A call to arms from a comerade usually so mild-mannered and generous cannot but be heeded! — Vera Mont

:smile:
I have not always been so gentle and mild. And my generosity only extends so far. Have you read the Tao Te Ching? There's a rather lengthy 34 page discussion of it. I'm in there somewhere...battling my corner!
I learned from that when to 'let it be'...

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/10427/my-favorite-verses-in-the-tao-te-ching/p1

I think I left about a third of the way through. Probably at Verse 13 ?
I just checked out the last few posts. Way to go @javi2541997 :flower:

I copy everything - now, after I had a couple of good scoldings - including works in progress on a memory stick, so it doesn't clutter up my regular files (which I have enough trouble finding my around.) Techno-klutz, me, but lucky again in my choice of life-mate. — Vera Mont

You have been extremely fortunate in life and open to learning! It seems I never do. My laptop is now hospitalized. Awaiting assessment and prognosis...

I have a white elephant of a Herendi set. The story begins in England in 1819, soon after Turner and Minton introduced that pattern, with the hanging of the Cato Street Conspirators. One of his daughters inherits the tea service. It travels with her to the New World, and is passed down from mother do daughter.
Is your novel a series of linked short stories?
— Amity
No, they're all single continuous narratives, but the last two are told from three different characters' point of view, set in three different locations. That was a new challenge. — Vera Mont

How fascinating. I'd love to hear more of how you achieved this. Perhaps better to read it first?

Part of A CHILD'S GARDEN OF POETRY where children discuss the meaning and mystery of poetry and recite some of their favorites by heart:

A video of Poem by Emily Dickinson. Read by Claire Danes and signed by Rachel, age 9.

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/video/77372/hope-is-the-thing-with-feathers

Hope in Poetry

The words of others can help to lift us up.

How can we find hope amid uncertainty, conflict, or loss? When we feel we have lost hope, we may find inspiration in the words and deeds of others. In this selection of poems, hope takes many forms: an open road, an unturned page, a map to another world, an ark, an infant, a long-lost glove that returns to its owner. Using metaphors for hope seems appropriate, as the concept of hope is difficult to describe. It is deeper than simple optimism, and more mysterious, delicate, and elusive...

From:
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/collections/142028/poems-of-hope-and-resilience

The first poem I remember and took to heart was Emily Dickinson's light and beautiful 'Hope is the thing with feathers'. Uplifting.
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/42889/hope-is-the-thing-with-feathers-314

This contrasts with the 'hope' in Stephen Mitchell's translation of Verse 13 of the Tao Te Ching.

13
Success is as dangerous as failure.
Hope is as hollow as fear.

What does it mean that success is a dangerous as failure?
Whether you go up the ladder or down it,
you position is shaky.
When you stand with your two feet on the ground,
you will always keep your balance.

What does it mean that hope is as hollow as fear?
Hope and fear are both phantoms
that arise from thinking of the self.
When we don't see the self as self,
what do we have to fear?

See the world as your self.
Have faith in the way things are.
Love the world as your self;
then you can care for all things — Tao Te Ching - Terebess

There are many translations. Most I found did not use the word 'hope'.
For example: Derek Lin's with commentary.

13

Favor and disgrace make one fearful
The greatest misfortune is the self
What does "favor and disgrace make one fearful" mean?
Favor is high, disgrace is low
Having it makes one fearful
Losing it makes one fearful
This is "favor and disgrace make one fearful"
What does "the greatest misfortune is the self" mean?
The reason I have great misfortune
Is that I have the self
If I have no self
What misfortune do I have?
So one who values the self as the world
Can be given the world
One who loves the self as the world
Can be entrusted with the world

Both favor and disgrace make us fearful and apprehensive.
The greatest source of adversity and trouble is the ego - the sense of self-importance.
What do we mean when we say that both favor and disgrace make us fearful? Favor is exalted, while disgrace is lowly and despised. We are afraid of getting humiliation. At the same time, we are also afraid of losing recognition. This is why we say both favor and disgrace make us fearful.
What do we mean when we say that the greatest source of trouble is our ego? The reason I've got problems is that my ego gets in the way. If I didn't have this sense of self-importance, what trouble could I possibly have?
Therefore, the humble sage who values the world as much as the self, is the one that can do the world justice. The selfless sage who loves the world as much as the self, is the one that we can trust with great responsibilities.
— Terebess - Tao Te Ching - Derek Lin

Poetry and Psychology

Words help poets “say the unsayable”:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/between-cultures/202303/saying-the-unsayable-the-psychology-of-poetry

Seven writers share, reveal and teach us about mental health through their poetry:
https://happiful.com/7-poems-that-teach-us-about-mental-health

***

The brain is wider than the sky.
From: https://interestingliterature.com/2019/05/10-of-the-best-poems-about-the-mind-and-thought/

5. Emily Dickinson, ‘The Brain is wider than the Sky’. (excerpt)

The Brain — is wider than the Sky —
For — put them side by side —
The one the other will contain
With ease — and You — beside —

The Brain is deeper than the sea —
For — hold them — Blue to Blue —
The one the other will absorb —
As Sponges — Buckets — do …

https://interestingliterature.com/2017/11/a-short-analysis-of-emily-dickinsons-the-brain-is-wider-than-the-sky/


8. Wilfred Owen, ‘Mental Cases’. (excerpt)

Who are these? Why sit they here in twilight?
Wherefore rock they, purgatorial shadows,
Drooping tongues from jaws that slob their relish,
Baring teeth that leer like skulls’ tongues wicked?
Stroke on stroke of pain, — but what slow panic,
Gouged these chasms round their fretted sockets?

https://interestingliterature.com/2018/12/a-short-analysis-of-wilfred-owens-mental-cases/

The analysis of that poem reminded of something by another middleasterner whose poetry I've turned to a lot. — wonderer1

Thank you. What a special choice, requiring more than one read to fully appreciate. A beautiful and balanced way to look at Good and Evil.

I'd heard of The Prophet by Kahlil Gibran but didn't wander off in that direction. Also others like Rumi and Omar Khayyam, really only names to me.

The article's author, Ali Hammoud, says his aim isn't to convince anyone that his is a correct interpretation of Hafez:

In Shiraz I am famous for my love’s lively ways
My eyes have not been polluted with an evil gaze

... but to inspire people to delve into Persian literature.

Words possess a quasi-mystical power and, in the hands of the master Persian poets, can engender serious transformation: long-buried emotions are stirred, long-forgotten memories are retrieved and long-lost truths are found again. All that is left for us is to read them. — Guardian - Making sense of it - Philosophy

So, I read more about Gibran and The Prophet in a useful study guide.
https://www.coursehero.com/lit/The-Prophet/

It helped me a great deal to place it in context:
https://www.coursehero.com/lit/The-Prophet/context/

***
It seems everywhere I go, I trip over my beloved Goethe. I watched a TV series on Jung and Alchemy https://filmfreeway.com/jung1
and that as a result of the excellent Freudian 'Vienna Blood' (crime drama).
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/m000bhqj/vienna-blood
Not to mention other posters talking of myths, surreal ideas and dreams @Jack Cummins for one. Winding paths, huh?!

Persian Literature

Described as one of the great literatures of humanity, including Goethe's assessment of it as one of the four main bodies of world literature. — Wiki - Persian literature

How could I forget the stories of Scheherazade!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Thousand_and_One_Nights

@wonderer1 -
You've turned to Gibran a lot? I see there are more themes on e.g. Love,
Marriage and Pain. He speaks to the everyday but in a spiritual way. I have to slide over God aspects. And talk of prophets...

However, I now better appreciate poetry's place in religion, psychology, politics and, of course, philosophy. Oh, and music...and...

Jamal and fdrake are too busy fighting Macbethian wars of power — Baden

Therein lies madness and death. A tragic state of affairs.
Hubble, bubble...

Song of the Witches: “Double, double toil and trouble”

BY WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE
(from Macbeth)

Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn and caldron bubble.
Fillet of a fenny snake,
In the caldron boil and bake;
Eye of newt and toe of frog,
Wool of bat and tongue of dog,
Adder's fork and blind-worm's sting,
Lizard's leg and howlet's wing,
For a charm of powerful trouble,
Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.

Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn and caldron bubble.
Cool it with a baboon's blood,
Then the charm is firm and good.

Notes:
Macbeth: IV.i 10-19; 35-38 — Poetry Foundation - Song of the Witches

You better watch out.Vera, Amity and Javi are on the case!
You got power, we got magic. :naughty: :halo: :rage:
You do you. We do VOODOO. The pins are out :fire: :monkey: :party:

I don't think we're under any immediate threat... are we? — Baden

No idea.

So, fdrake Will you, Jamal or a new someone be taking over from Baden and be the admin for Literary Activity 2024?
— Amity

The admin doesn't have to do much, just a few permissions and so on. It is a little tricky because we decided to keep story comments off the front page, but the discussion should be pinned there. — Baden

OK. Interesting. Still doesn't answer my question. Some things never change.
You lot either haven't worked it out yet or can't be arsed telling it like it is.
Slippery buggers, the lot of ya'. :roll:

It never hurts. — fdrake

:smile: Thanks. I know that it is a good idea to keep a back-up. However, I rarely do this. And it would 'hurt' in terms of time, energy and space. Especially if it's not necessary. Will TPF keep the stories safe? Apparently, in another lifetime and transition, the archive got lost.

Any response to previous question re future of the Literary Activity/Challenge would also be appreciated. It seems from @Baden that it is up to an admin. — Amity

So, @fdrake Will you, Jamal or a new someone be taking over from Baden and be the admin for Literary Activity 2024?

Moving on to Persian Poetry and Philosophy.

Ethics, aesthetics and philosophy are all intertwined in the poetry of Hafez and his words help us to rediscover long-lost truths

Within the pantheon of Persian poets...Reading the poetry of Hafez induces fragmented moments where one oscillates between body and soul; indeed, Wheeler Thackston writes that Hafez “sang a rare blend of human and mystic love so balanced, proportioned, and contrived with artful ease that it is impossible to separate the one from the other”. Within his poetic lines are levels and layers, each unfolding simultaneously upon the page and within the reader. Ethics, aesthetics and philosophy are all intertwined, and all possible meanings simmer simultaneously beneath the surface.

I present an analysis of a verse to demonstrate the multi-layered and rich understanding of Hafez, with the hope that it will also inspire introspection, wherever stage you may be at in life, as it has for Persian readers for generations upon generations.

In Shiraz I am famous for my love’s lively ways

My eyes have not been polluted with an evil gaze

— Guardian - Making sense of it - Philosophy

What 'Blue Willow' story ? The only story I can recall about a woman is 'Dawn'.
— Amity
It's in the same collection with Dawn — Vera Mont

For those who didn't read 'Dawn' by Vera. It's from 'Short Stories 2023'.

https://thephilosophyforum.com/categories/50/short-stories-dec-2023

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/14882/dawn-by-vera-mont

And now I'm wondering if TPF is in the process of moving, will the Competitions
be packed up and archived so that the stories/poems are not lost?

Should we be downloading stuff that we'd like to keep?
@Jamal @fdrake

Any response to previous question re future of the Literary Activity/Challenge would also be appreciated. It seems from @Baden that it is up to an admin.